brideofjc

True there is ways around it and that is why I do not "put down" paraphrases, only sometimes in the sections where there scholar was "errant", or they may have a good point somewhere it is useful at times :)

True but it then becomes less accurate, and a paraphrase (to me).

Let the word in its God-Breathed dialect show us how accurate it is cf to ENG. I am sorry to say this my friend, but I am forced by what I have seen in GK to say the KG is way more colorful and we cannot carry what is here (to my understanding). no harm meant to you. but it is just what I have learned till this day.

Several of us was researching out to see if The Word was eternal in John chapter one.

so we hit this word "een" or "en" in the Ipf tense.

where is the grammar support for a TRUE translation here?

which verse? V1?

There is none for the word "een" (that I have seen), in this context at all.

Some scholars think this to be a eternal verb. Can we "accuratly" place this in English, unless I add a word, and if I add a word we no longer have the inspired written word, but just "another translation". Can that than be a "true" translation??

JN 1:1,2.

en arche EN ho logos kia ho logos EN pros tou theou kia theos EN ho logos hutos EN en arche pros tou theou.

Why add a word in Eng. here to use it as a paraphrase, because if we would want contrast or get to the "rightly divided word" one would need to place it in Imperf tense into ENG. Translations put in mostly Past here, because of "the beginning" that JN 1 and verse 2 is speaking of here. There looking at Gen:1 "en arche" in the LXX. but lets move on and not get into " arche" but note that the "en " applied to Christ in the context of JN 1 and it is is ALWAYS IN Ipf. (to my understanding)

"Before any beginning "had always been" the Word

and the Word "had always been" with the God

and God "had always been" the Word

this person "had always been".

A "paraphrase" on the word "en" and more accurate than almost every English translations that I have seen on this word.

"the Word had always been God" they put it in the past because JN 1 is speaking of the "eternity" of the word, and our minds can only think of the first "arche" in Gen. but the word "een", says the Word goes farther back than any beginning, and is eternal.

This is just what i see and I see they have good and bads to them lol lol.

Despite they (Jonathese Gerber, and his wife) missed this word "theos" and tries to add a Indef. Art. He did pick up on the Word "arche" in Jn. 1a,2. In his "In beginning" but messes it up in that Jesus Christ was first created in many passages with the word "archee' . So I do like to say that I see what he was looking at in JN 1:1,2- "en arche" but it is to the Watchtowers shame to allow Gerber to push his "Slanted Translation" in to there "New World Translation" and it is even worse I have seen some from VPWs group go with Gerber on this one, and add to the words in JN 1:1c. "a god".

God bless

My trans: " In the beginning, was the Word, and the Word was with God, and The Word was God." Straight from the Greek, it is an easy verse to translate.

I have to go now, I'm running out of time. I would have liked to say more on this topic. I won't be able to get back to this until after the holiday.

Well, Christ, as the Son of God, was way above the religious leaders of his day.

Darn right they called him Rabbi.

So, you think Jesus was no different than a Reverend and/or Doctor today? Gee, he was just another "teacher."

That's what the Hebrew word means, Sunesis. Merely referring to that, not His exalted status.

Is he really your Saviour, have you made him Lord in your life? Or is he just another in a myriad of nice teachers or prophets with nice words - nice guy, no one special.

Yes, He is! I hope He's yours!

Please, because you have given yourself the title "Reverend" - don't compare yourself to Christ.

Because it is Christ in me...then, well...yes. I am His ambassador here on earth and I might be the only Christ some people get to see. The same goes for anyone else who proclaims His name.

Your analogy was false.

No, the analogy was not false.

I take it you know what your moniker means?

Yup! That's her all right.

Janice! :) Long time girl! How are things shakin'? ... As you can see, I've gone a sizeable change in my views since last we corresponded, ohhh, about 11 years ago. Hope that doesn't bring too much disappointment. ... Ahh well.

No, I think it would have had to be 16+ years ago, Garth. I officially left CES in 1995 so it would have had to been prior to this. No, kind of glad you left, it was fast becoming another TWI replication which is what alarmed me in the first place. Which is why when you thumped me for my heretical views which were moving towards the Lord Jesus Christ...well, my rational logic prevailed....

Did you really remember my name or did you look up past posts on Waydale.... just curious...or did you go out to my web site?

About eight months ago? I found something you sent me, but I won't mention it here. Couldn't believe I still had it when I was cleaning my drawers out.

When I look at the materialism of the church of today in America, I sometimes think we are in the 6th church of the book of revelations - the televangelists are leaders of the Laodicean church - the one right before the gathering, the one of which Christ says he will spit out of his mouth.

I take it then that the Lord Jesus has already shared the future judgments with you then? What an enviable position you must be in, sir.

Rev. 3:17: You say, 'I am rich and well off; I have all I need.' But you do not know how miserable and pitiful you are! You are poor, naked, and blind.

As Peter once said, Silver and Gold have I none, but rise and walk.

Today, with the televangelists its perversely backwards.

Silver and gold have they, but no one is healed, there is no one rising and walking.

Defend these new megachurches and its leaders, say its a great thing all you want.

But they will be spit out - they look good, they look great, millions follow these people.

Again, how do you know they will be spit out? What if you are? My Bible says that the ones that will be spit out are the Christians who are lukewarm. What are you doing for the Lord, if I may ask?

Its the great end times apostasy. The false, "feel good" health and wealth, name it and claim it church.

One that has nothing to do with Christ. The one that will be spit out.

The Great Apostasy is to leave Jesus Christ. Some posters have already informed us of their status. Where is your flaming judgments for these folks? Just an honest question that you should really answer publicly so that we may all see your complete unbiased attitude for apostasizers.

Yah, the bride's business is ministry - http://newcovenantchristianministries.org/ according to her profile.

I wonder if she is the author of The Common, the Holy and the Despised.

Yes it is and yes I am. The true title is, "The Holy, The Common and The Despised."

Goey: I think that Christian minitries should hold themselves to a higher standard than secular busninesses. It is not so much an issue of "is it illegal" than it is one of "does it please God". Christian ministries should not only obey the law, they should also strive to please God - (assuming that God is actually involved)

Goey: I think that churches should be fully transparant to ALL , especially if they are claiming that by tithing to them, it will be multiplied back to the giver. These ministries are recruiting "secular jerks" and thier cash so I think the "secular jerks" should know where the money goes. What good reason could they have for not being fully transparant? I think I know. On the other hand, detailed financial information is readily available on any publically traded corporation, so I don't get your point in that area.

Detailed? When my mutual funds send me their annual report, it comes as 5 color pie charts showing bland %'s, if it does have any further break down, it doesn't reveal if the CEO's bought suits with company money, how many bottles of champagne were written off as business expenses et al.

Goey Again: We are not talling about mutual funds are we? That is totally irrelevant to my point above and to what I was saying. (Strawman argument) I said "publicly traded corporation", didn't I? -- We can hardly compare a mutual fund made up of many different entities with a single corporation can we? Of course not. Apples and oranges. However, FYI - The Edgar Database is open to all who want to look at detailed finances of publically traded corporations.

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Goey: And I would add, please don't overly defend them either if you don't have an inside view. Since you don't know Meyer's salary or how much she has personally gained from the donations she solicits, you would certainly not have an inside view. Given the track record of TV ministries in the past, I would be reluctant to run to their defense without some really good info. I don't really think they deserve the benefit if the doubt. Been too many scams.

BC: What I was defending, is a ministry that is being blatantly accused with YELLOW journalism. It would also behoove those who are villainizing her to have an inside view as well. The street runs two ways.

Goey Again: The "inside view" comes from financial statements and minutes of boards meetings that became public records when Joyce Meyer sued to maintain Church status. Her lavish lifestyle is public record. And once again, pointing out Joyce Meyers' lavish lifestyle and huge salary is not "villanizing". I don't see it as "yellow journalism" at all. Just getting the facts out in the open. Facts that you seem to think should be either suppressed or go unquestioned.

They are public records...so what's the problem...is she trying to hide something? My only point throughout this whole thing has been this: it's easy to flame someone else whether you have an inside view or not. Yellow journalism was used on the original poster's link which is why I responded in the first place.

What is blatent to me is Ms Meyers' huge personal gain from a not for profit corproration, which BTW is illegal.

BTW you said you had a NFP corporation, is that right? It wouldn't happen to be Christian Ministry of any kind would it? Just asking.

Yes, it is. Yes, we are a NFP. The reason I have it, to minister to others. You cannot apply for grants, or do much of anything without having some sort of legal status. If the Lord leads in the future to go for 501C3, then I will.

Look, I don't want her to stop her "ministry" er , business or have it shut down. Quite a few people seem to like her stuff and she seems to do some people some good. ( it's not my cup of tea) .

However, no way is this truly a not-for-profit charity, considering how much Meyer and her family have personally gained. It's a very profitable business masquerading as a church. Therefore it should be taxed like the profitable business that it is.

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Goey: Unfortunatley, since so many TV ministers have been exposed over the years as frauds, thieves and money-mongers it is understandabe that folks like Meyers get "back slaps" when they are seen living a life of extreme wealth and privilege. Fancy houses, fancy cars, etc. We know where the money comes from. The question I have is how much do they actually deserve? If they are getting wealthy off of the tithes, then it seems to me it is a business for profit and not actually a "ministry" and there should be no tax exemptions. This would be especially true if the Board of Directors is made up only of family members and lackies that are yes people to the charismatic leader.

BC: Ok, does Joyce personally own these cars? Maybe her home perhaps, or is it listed as a parsonage? Therefore, owned by the ministry...I can't remember. I looked at the articles last week.

Goey Again: Whether or not she personally "owns" the cars or property is irrelevant. She is getting free use of them which is bascially the same thing when you consider that she presides over the Board of Directors and controls the whole corporation. It's income plain and simple. She has no car note, no insurance and no maintanence expenses. No housing exenses - no mortage. This is actually better than owning a car or a home. She runs the place carte blanche and uses the not for profit "corporation" as a holding company for property that her and her familly have exclusive use of.

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Goey: I say, if you are gonna claim the church tax breaks, open the books for all to see, otherwise close them and then be honest that it really just a business and that a few insiders are getting very rich off of the tithes and donations.

Goey: I take strong exception to this. Why would it necessarily be spiritual jealousy? I think it is more of a case of folks wanting to be taught and to learn from someone that is not getting filty rich off of their donations - where the greater part of the donations (minus reasonable expenses) goes to real charitable causes - rather than to support a lavish lifestyle for someone who claims to be a minister for God. How is that spiritual jealousy?

When someone else has something you are not willing to work for or take the risks, then just flame them and knock them around a bit...thus you feel better about your own inactivity.

Goey: If it is a for profit business, then modern merchanidizing techniques are fine. Just be open as say its a business and that you are getting rich off of the tithes and "love offerings". At least that is honest.

BC: Maybe you are not aware of this. When I applied for my FEIN, the IRS asked me if I ever intended selling books, tapes etc. At such an early stage I naturally said "not at this time." I wouldn't be surprised to find out you have to actually re-incorporate under a business identity (albeit the same/similar name of ministry), after all, Uncle Sam wants his cut to be sure.

Goey Again: Looks like the IRS has gotten wise to the tape and books scams from some so called non-profits. The tapes are produced and marketed with money from donations and then the leader gets to personally keep all the royalties, then claiming that this royalty income has nothing to do with funds from the ministry.

But ummmm .... what does that have to do with what I posted above? Can you address my points please?

Why don't you expound upon your comment/accusation about "spirit of jealousy?"

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Goey: What today's so-called prophets and evangelists do is irrelevant to the issue. There is a big difference in a love offering to meet the basic needs of a minister, etc and a high tech marketing campaing that brings in hundreds of thousands of dollars which is used to keep a minister in a lavish lifestyle. Maybe you need to "get real" on this.

BC: Again, who actually owns the things, or is Joyce only using them? If she were to ever leave and they replaced her (and I know...) she would not be able to take it with her. If a NFP fails for whatever reason, you must dispose of any materials, lands, vehicles to another NFP. It is not allowed to sell it, give it away privately etc. There are laws that govern such things.

Goey Again: Let's not be naive. Ownership is irrelevant. She has no personall expenses at all. Everything is paid for. Just like it was for VPW and LCM down to the personal servants. Therefore, her salary and book royalties can go straight to savings and personal investments. . She has no personal debt at all and multiple millions in personal savings and investments. So she will never really need to take anything with her if the NFPC fails

And let's not be naive about that either. If the main NFP "fails" it can be liquidated to another NFP controlled by the same folks. Kinda like a reorgainzation. -- Like TWI Inc. and Gunnison Inc. Two completely separate NFPC's controlled by the same folks. IF TWI ever dissolves, its assets can be given to Gunnison Inc. or vice versa. In either case the same folks will control and can have exclusive use of the booty.

All ministries will be judged by the Lord Jesus, will they not? Who are you to judge? Bless you anyway.

Thanks Belle,

That certainly explains her rather obvious bias.

Bias? No my concern came from the original poster of this thread who posted a link to some snippets of what journalists purportedly investigated about Myers. Some of these snippets is plain yellow journalism. The assumptions of some were that when they 'saw' a woman in a wheelchair writing a check to the ministry, the inference was that she must be poor and unable to even pay her utility bills, or her medical bills and probably was living on the street type attitude. Where is the documentation for such assumptions?

The fact that donations are openly solicited on the home page is quite interesting and may be somewhat telling.

It appears she is after a piece of the same pie that Meyers is feasting upon.

I don't remember ever meeting you....I believe I've only posted some 20x and for you to have such wondrous inside knowledge of me is astounding....

I wonder if the books are open. I bet not.

It is to my understanding that all NFP board meetings are open should one wish to attend to hear the financials. You are welcome. We just had one...so I guess you'll have to wait for the next one.

The About "US" page only lists one person. Jan*** Rob******, yet it appears to be a one horse(mare?)show.

She names herself as a Reverend. It would be interesting to know where and by whom she was ordained.

My other directors who are also ministers did not wish to be named and therefore I respected their requests.

The mission seems to be a noble cause, but then again, so does Joyce Meyer's.

Funny how this reverend and doctor crap is exactly what Jesus said not to do.

Exercising lordship over people and the interpretations of scriptures.

Well, then please explain why the Lord Jesus never reproved those who called him

Rabbi? This would be on the same level today as Reverend and/or Doctor. Just a different century, Cman.

BrideofJC,

"Having the audacity to leave the Glorious Throne Room". :o Wow! ... The audacity of it all. ... To leave. ... (((gasps))) Such a crime!

Yer a riot lady.

I think I know who you are (but I won't give a guess here; gonna respect your privacy and all that), but when I wrote to you about CES, I seriously doubt that it was about you "dared to think differently than what CES was teaching", but (at the time) I thought you were wrong in what you said. Nowadays, I don't care what you believe, as I pretty much dropped all things 'religious', CES or no CES. (Oh by the way, if you are who I think you are, ... how's Dale Sides Ministry going, hmmm? ;) )

Oh yeah, right! Like the ONLY reason one can walk away and no longer believe is that they have some 'root of bitterness'. ... Uhhm, ok. Whatever. ....... Me, I rather see it as daring to see and scrutinize and think for myself in making up my mind about such things, ... instead of mindlessly taking some 'Lord and King's' word for it without question, and that based on blind faith and blind obedience.

But if that is what floats your boat, knock yourself out. ... Just keep it outta my face, ok?

Nah! You did! You were 100% pro CES and I was already questioning because I had seen some dangerous trends forming in the leadership that looked too much like TWI. You soundly reproved me and gave me the reasons why I needed to drop my heretical beliefs, i.e. non-CES... LOL. Kinda looks like to me the tables turned on you. What a hoot! Oh, well, you should really reconsider re-entering the Lord's Temple, Garth. The Lord Jesus, THE REAL ONE, is a whole lot different than any church, denomination, pastor, evangelist or whatever...

I wouldn't leave now for anything.

As far as you saying "taking some Lord and King's word for it without question..." Yes Garth, you can take HIS WORD for it,

you confuse the two because of taking a MAN'S word for it, i.e. church, cult etc. A big difference.

Anyway, that's why I stopped writing, I was already out the door and you weren't!

God Bless you anyway!

Hope you find your way some day.

Oldies, I don't care who Jesus ate with, that's not the point.

I don't read about Jesus amassing a material kingdom here on earth. He didn't go around in his motorcoach, latest harley, buying up property, making a compound with lots of buildings, or building a castle, or whatever wealthy people did back then - amass sheep?

Jesus Christ preached a spiritual kingdom coming - that was his message - that all are welcome - follow Him.

He himself said it is very hard for a rich man to enter the coming kingdom.

I agree - what we see here is Americanized Christianity.

There is no difference between the amassing of wealth of these televangelists and the vatican amassing their wealth. None.

It is a marriage with the world, it is creating an earthy, material kingdom, it is a making merchandise of God's people. It is enriching themselves and gorging themselves on the backs of their flock.

It is disgusting.

Pray tell, how do you think that you will reach a larger audience? It costs to run tv shows, ads, host internet things. I know I'm being redundant, but do tell me how you are going to move the Word of God on a pauper's salary? When the Apostles were collecting funds in Jerusalem, do you really know that they didn't also put some to usury to make more money? Since the Bible is silent on these issues, it is only fair to not make unfair comparisons.

So let me ask you...so if I pay tuition at a college/seminary (which I did), and I buy their text books...are they making merchanise of the Christians who attend? Are they the only ones who profit? Could it not be possible that some profits remain intangible such as knowledge learned etc.?

So if people buy her books/tapes/CD's/videos, is it not possible that both are profiting, albeit in different formats?

God Bless

Goey: I think that Christian minitries should hold themselves to a higher standard than secular busninesses. It is not so much an issue of "is it illegal" than it is one of "does it please God". Christian ministries should not only obey the law, they should also strive to please God - (assuming that God is actually involved)

Goey: I think that churches should be fully transparant to ALL , especially if they are claiming that by tithing to them, it will be multiplied back to the giver. These ministries are recruiting "secular jerks" and thier cash so I think the "secular jerks" should know where the money goes. What good reason could they have for not being fully transparant? I think I know. On the other hand, detailed financial information is readily available on any publically traded corporation, so I don't get your point in that area.

Detailed? When my mutual funds send me their annual report, it comes as 5 color pie charts showing bland %'s, if it does have any further break down, it doesn't reveal if the CEO's bought suits with company money, how many bottles of champagne were written off as business expenses et al.

Goey: And I would add, please don't overly defend them either if you don't have an inside view. Since you don't know Meyer's salary or how much she has personally gained from the donations she solicits, you would certainly not have an inside view. Given the track record of TV ministries in the past, I would be reluctant to run to their defense without some really good info. I don't really think they deserve the benefit if the doubt. Been too many scams.

What I was defending, is a ministry that is being blatantly accused with YELLOW journalism. It would also behoove those who are villainizing her to have an inside view as well. The street runs two ways.

Goey: Unfortunatley, since so many TV ministers have been exposed over the years as frauds, thieves and money-mongers it is understandabe that folks like Meyers get "back slaps" when they are seen living a life of extreme wealth and privilege. Fancy houses, fancy cars, etc. We know where the money comes from. The question I have is how much do they actually deserve? If they are getting wealthy off of the tithes, then it seems to me it is a business for profit and not actually a "ministry" and there should be no tax exemptions. This would be especially true if the Board of Directors is made up only of family members and lackies that are yes people to the charismatic leader.

Ok, does Joyce personally own these cars? Maybe her home perhaps, or is it listed as a parsonage? Therefore, owned by the ministry...I can't remember. I looked at the articles last week.

I say, if you are gonna claim the church tax breaks, open the books for all to see, otherwise close them and then be honest that it really just a business and that a few insiders are getting very rich off of the tithes and donations.

Goey: I take strong exception to this. Why would it necessarily be spiritual jealousy? I think it is more of a case of folks wanting to be taught and to learn from someone that is not getting filty rich off of their donations - where the greater part of the donations (minus reasonable expenses) goes to real charitable causes - rather than to support a lavish lifestyle for someone who claims to be a minister for God. How is that spiritual jealousy?

Goey: If it is a for profit business, then modern merchanidizing techniques are fine. Just be open as say its a business and that you are getting rich off of the tithes and "love offerings". At least that is honest.

Maybe you are not aware of this. When I applied for my FEIN, the IRS asked me if I ever intended selling books, tapes etc. At such an early stage I naturally said "not at this time." I wouldn't be surprised to find out you have to actually re-incorporate under a business identity (albeit the same/similar name of ministry), after all, Uncle Sam wants his cut to be sure.

What today's so-called prophets and evangelists do is irrelevant to the issue. There is a big difference in a love offering to meet the basic needs of a minister, etc and a high tech marketing campaing that brings in hundreds of thousands of dollars which is used to keep a minister in a lavish lifestyle. Maybe you need to "get real" on this.

Again, who actually owns the things, or is Joyce only using them? If she were to ever leave and they replaced her (and I know...) she would not be able to take it with her. If a NFP fails for whatever reason, you must dispose of any materials, lands, vehicles to another NFP. It is not allowed to sell it, give it away privately etc. There are laws that govern such things.

Goey: It is not villainizing to expect those who claim to be Christian leaders to hold themsleves to certain standards. It is not villainizing to ask these leaders to give an open accounting of finances and how much they personally gain from tithes and offerings.

The TV ministers that have fallen, fell because of their own doings, not because they were "pulled down" unjustly. I don't think anyone here is trying to "pull down" Joyce Meyers. Seem more like folks just want some answers and some facts.

Goey: 400K seems quite high to me - even for Graham. I thought is was more like 200K. But regardless, what is it that leads these ministers think they should make so much money and live lifestyles far and above those they claim to serve?

FYI, as I understand it John Haggee is one of the higest paid TV ministers today. His 2003 compensation package was reported to be about 1.2 million. The Copeland's seems to be raking in quite a bit as well. Not sure what the 990's say.

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Another poster said all was available on her web site. Why don't you go there and check it out at the horse's mouth? As far as living lifestyles, they must answer to the Lord. But please remember, there's a high price to be paid when you are in the lime light not to mention the untold hours that no one else sees.

quote name='Sunesis' date='Nov 7 2007, 11:45 AM' post='380299']

I heard her somewhere a few times years ago - when her ministry was still small and she was struggling.

I think one of the only reasons she became so popular is because the lady is a riot. At least back then she was.

She could easily be a top comedian - her stories were hilarious. Thus, she was deemed "human" and frail like everyone else and they could relate, especially women.

I also remember thinking, this lady will go to the top. It will be interesting to see what she morphs into when the $$$ comes rolling in. Will she become a ruthless VP close behind the scenes - nasty, things to hide?

I know nothing about her now, but this debate is interesting.

I remember questioning DM and other people - asking, why does VP need the bus, airplane, fancy clothes, etc. She said because they need it to move the Word, to look the "best" as God's representative. Oh, hmmm..... I guess we were to be happy with our clothes from give away and beat up cars. I never bought it. And, true to form, the "wealth" was shared with other top leadership in TWI who were public.

Sounds like history repeating itself here with Joyce. As far as I'm concerned, once the $$ rolls in the you see the fancy compounds, house, buses, entourage, etc. - you're on your way to corruption.

Not necessarily! Isn't that kinda up to the Lord to judge her? Even as He will judge all of us, whether rich or poor? It isn't the dollars that will help you slide by the Throne.

BRIDE - "I carry my own water too. Oh, MY GOD...I have an undersink purifier...better get rid of that before I get criticized as well. So, she prefers a particular BRAND NAME....What is the BIG DEAL????

Might there be a difference between preferring Dom Perignon champagne as opposed to Cold Duck?

A whole lot of difference I would say. Maybe a .25 difference between Perrier and Dannon???

BRIDE - Again, if you can afford it, you would too. Joyce is supposed to go down to "RENT-A-BOX" and sleep in the ghetto?

Didn't Jesus hung out with the dregs of society? Dregs generally don't have rooms at the Jerusalem Hilton.

OH, PLEASE! No one here on this forum would do that, unless you are forced to, so why knock her about.

I recall passages in the Bible, of the Lord Jesus sitting down with high society as well. Probably slept there as well too. He had rich women following him, probably doing his laundry and cooking too. Now what!

Why? Because she happens to be a minister? Even Jesus had an accountant (not too honest), but The Lord still had one! Bet He rode the best mule, too? Want to knock HIM? Be my guest!

So, by this logic, Jesus would have stayed at the Jerusalem Hilton, worn a Rolex on his tv show, and driven a Lamborghini Testarossa?

How do you know if he isn't already? Do you think the Holy Father couldn't give it to Him?

Bless you anyways. I like your tongue in cheek.

Hey, that kinda looks like Rocky Balboa, doesn't it?

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Wasn't much impressed with the "audience" TYVM, but then, your mileage obviously varies...

http://gods.nl/Demotivators/pics/Delusions.jpg

You are supposed to be worshipping the audience of ONE! If you were looking at the congregation, may I suggest that you turn around?

BrideofJC,

:wub: I wuv you too.

Non-bulls**t translation of 'More negative' = more challenging of concepts that you have pledged absolute allegience too. ... Right? ;)

Not only to us 'secular jerks' <_< , but also to all those to whom the church/organization wants to actually convince that said church/organization is so on the up-and-up and honest and all, thereby showing the world that their god is morally superior to all others, ... and that's where all these supposed morally superior churches/organizations fail!

Re: Avoid paying taxes <-> Evade paying taxes.

Now THAT legal 'hair splitting' is so RICH. ..... And some people wonder why the legal profession is held in such ill regard!

Yes, there is a difference. You do it yourself on your private taxes, Garth. They are called credits!!!! So before you start flinging the muck, better duck baby!

The absolute allegiance you refer to is because I bowed to the King, Garth. It is the only way you rise to it. It doesn't come from any allegiance to any pastor (been kicked around too much in that arena) or any particular denomination. You probably don't remember it anymore, been too many years ago, but for a while we were writing privately to each other through snail mail. You once reproved me because I dared to think differently than what CES was teaching. So I will now dare to reprove you for having the audacity to leave the Glorious Throne Room of the King. If you say you were never in it... well then the door is always open.

So I double dog dare you to try again and perhaps you'll lose the bitter root that has formed in you. I know, I had to hack mine out as well.

So, I wuv you too babycakes! MMWAHHH!

Nahh. I figured you learned on your own, grasshopper.

Besides, BrideofJC wants to be my toy now.

...

...... Hhmmmm, maybe I need to rephrase that.

No, I only have boy toys!

Modern Wiccan and pagans often do believe in the old pagan gods, Native American spirits etc, and some Christians do think it is false and deluded etc. There is a thread on this forum right now that shows that( The Wright article thread.)

And some pagans think that Santa Claus is a modern representation of Odin, the All father etc. Yule is a sacred time for them.

As far as Sunesis post-- I was in TWI for twenty years. I was never taught it was okay to 'talk to Jesus' we prayed to God in the name of Jesus Christ, the type of relationship she describes was not part of my Chrisitian experience.

There was no 'I reject you Jesus' type thought/action etc. Things evolved.

I also, in TWI was told that one couldn't "talk to Jesus" and in 1993, The Lord Yeshua was watching over me so to speak and I really wanted to quit smoking. Anyway, I tentatively looked up at my ceiling and said, "Father God, I don't know if this is going to anger you, but LORD Jesus, please help me quit smoking. I don't know if I'm supposed to talk to you but there it is. The next day I waited for the nicotine fits to hit, and they never did. I received a miracle that day from the LORD JESUS and I haven't stopped speaking to HIM yet, and neither has HE stopped speaking with me.

Sorry I should have been more clear,

( what you shared with us in the GK in your article above)

English can not be "the original" English can not carry the Grammar Support, therefore it cannot be a True Translation at all. God gave it to us in Koine Greek, so we would need to have another, a more complex dialect to to translate it more accurate. But we have it paraphrased in many Dialects now "Praise God" that is super, i think we should use them all, and the Greek adds contrast to it.

Who says that English does not have the Grammar Support. In fact, strange as it might seem, I never understood the grammar rules (not completely) in my own language until I learned Greek. The Koine Greek language is a highly inflected language; English is not as highly inflected but there are ways around it and the translation still remains clear from Greek to English.

Here is a story how God can use another translation.

We (a kitchen full of people) that had two interlinear bibles with 8 different Trans. in each of them. I had a AMP,RSV,NKJV,NRSV,NJ,LAMSA,NIV,KJV,NWT we had so many at our fingertips I cannot recall them all. We wanted to do a study to see what all these translators had to say about that big word "by" in Heb.1:2,JN1:3. and the word "God" in JN 1:1c.

They seen real fast and quick, after every one read about 20 different renderings of scholars translations, a girl (that was smart as a tack) spoke up after one in the group said "there all wrong" in HEB. there not going with the "accuracy" and the NWT is WAY out man..." The girl said your nuts, and out numbered bad, even the NWT has Heb right on with the other bibles. where did you go to school at. The kids really gave him a hassle over it. But to say that Eng. is not useful would be very wrong, and back to the box again i go lol lol.

NWT or New World Trans by the JW's is whacked out especially in John 1:1.

What is the difference if I said

"lift ME"

"Build ME"

"magnify ME"

"edifith Me

It is MYSELF and Paul makes this clear. and that is what I think anyway, and the bible is saying here. "MY" in Cor. 14. And the word "spirit" can only be determined by its context, like "arche", as to what "spirit" or what "beginning". no where in this Chapter is God the Holy Spirit ever brought out. But "my spirit" is in this context several times. (just what i see here).

"He that speaks in a tongue edifieth HIMSELF"

The difference is that it is the tongues that are doing the building, which is the manifestation of the HS as opposed to the egotistical lifting up of myself by myself. This is what the inmature Corinthians were doing when Paul corrected them.

Verse 14 "for if I pray in a tongue MY SPIRIT PRAYS"

in submission to the Lord Jesus, AND IF a person is not in Sub. according to GAL. 5, will "NOT ENTER"and in turn has never been saved, and is guilty as of the people Christ speaks of in that last day in MT 7.

"Lord Lord (even profess his deity here) have not we taught in your name , in your name did all these things, Jesus says to them I NEVER KNEW you, depart from me you WORKERS OF SIN."

These People only professed, like "even the devils believe and tremble" there must be "faith that works" a "working faith"

but here is another debate, and lets move on. Wow I looked over just on these last couple posts we did, and there is some meat in just what we covered in these last two verses. Wow that was only two verses lol lol sheww wee. I do say you got me digging (in the word) here lol lol

Wow glad to hear your comment, and glad to see another view point ...makes me want to look at Verse 3 now hee hee

Yes Indeed!! When I first saw this and realized it, it cured me forever of the heretical teaching of "eternal security", now I live in an awesome fear of the ONE TRUE GOD and HIS SON, THE LORD YESHUA. But He expects those who follow Him to live accordingly, and not just SAY they are Christians, or even go to church and put on your SUNDAY-GO-TO-MEETING-CLOTHES, nor loudly say PRAISE JESUS, HALLELUJAH! and then stab and maul other Christians. It is one thing to disagree or even reprove, but this is not what I am talking about.

Look all you want at V3, it's in ENGLISH too! LOL

I believe that it was a literal catching up of the 1st century christians who stuck with Christ through total hell on earth from the persecution they endured. Also known as the martyrs. Satan was literally trying to kill every one of them through the antichrist(possibly Nero) and seed of satan jews. Christians have not quite endured that level of hostility since.

I would have to disagree with that statement. Saints have continued to be burned at the stake, there is persecution today in the African countries, and I've just experienced and for that matter am still experiencing intense persecution since I started my ministry. Talk about satan jews....try satan christians. I believe Jesus called them "tares" and "wolves in sheep's clothing." He also said that there would be those who will think that by killing you they are doing God a service, hence this implies that these people think that they know God and serve Him. RIGHT! Well anyway...

I was wondering if anyone had a copy of this. I am interested in orientalisms and recently found this existed, but I don't know where to get it.

Orientalisms: The bible is an Eastern Book - 10 Tapes by Bo. Rehard

You don't need Bo Rehard, unless you just want him. You can go to

http://www.christianbook.com

Manners and Customs in the Bible, Third Edition

By: Victor H. Matthews

Hendrickson Publishers / 2006 / Hardcover

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How can one fully comprehend the Old Testament book of Ruth without understanding ancient Israelite marriage traditions? Even a quick skim of the Gospels has you wondering about tax collectors, religious officials, fishermen, and farmers. And so much is missed when reading Acts and the Epistles without some grasp of Roman law and government. Now newly revised and fully updated, each chapter of Manners & Customs in the Bible furnishes an introduction to the political and physical setting of specific periods in Israel's history and outlines the basic structure of its social world. Scripture passages are featured alongside the text to keep relevant biblical passages in view. 150 new color photos and illustrations, new maps and diagrams, and a new glossary make this a must have resource for your library!

Victor H. Matthews is professor of religious studies at Southwest Missouri State University. He received a PhD from Brandeis University and has written numerous popular as well as scholarly articles. He is the author of Manners and Customs in the Bible, and co-author of Old Testament Parallels: Laws and Stories from the Ancient Near East and The Social World of Ancient Israel.

Well a pastor of a local Church, was speaking in a "ecstatic utterance" when:

HE BEAT ME AND TOOK ME TO THE GROUND THIS YEAR!!"

He was charged with "ASSULT" for doing that to me.

I wonder if that was THEE HOLY GHOST ??

A lady in a local Church came in Speaking in what they call "the heavenly Lang." ohh my... everyone there thought she had the Holy Ghost " Boy O boy " well In just a week she sold a Martian D28 to a Preacher for a market value of 1500.00 cash. I went with him on the sale. She said "oh my husband had this most of his life, and there is nothing wrong with it". Well he took it home and after he played 2 songs the putty fell out, and the tone changed on it "it was cracked." which cost around 700.00 to fix, i said to the Preacher "And she spake in tongues too". The Preacher (being for SIT ) said to me "I FIGURED SHE WAS ONE OF THEM" hA HA I about died...lol lol, after he understood what he agreed to, he felt bad.

Wonder if THE HOLY SPIRIT was speaking in a utterance through her at the services we had together. ??

I was a teacher at this Local Church and most knew I did not see the "sign gifts for today" (that is another debate) but the Pastor did. All was well and many were blessed by it , to see that we could worship together. I was watching to see if he would what you all call "Manifest". The reason I watched is because I knew the Bible in Gal. Ch 5: it teaches "The fruit of the Spirit is the real "Manifest"." and if a person professes to be Christian, and lives day after day in a sinful state and did not produce or "manifest" these... "he will not "ENTER" the kingdom", and turn has "never" been a Christian. Passages like this one, is the ones we must ask our selfs, (and I do)

"am I manifesting these fruits "

"is this the manifesting of the Holy Spirit for us today"

Almost everyone in this town knows the Pastor and mock him bad because of the life stile he lived. It really hurt his out reach in the community, and the Church sat mostly empty because of it. I tried my best "to know no one after the flesh". One service he finally stood up and:

"e col a ba higha, e shon dia, e sodia a mo tia "

I said within my self "ok now lets hear God talk through you" and sure thing like clock work...say no more.

One month later to two, the Church burned to the Ground, his girlfriend found out about the one in Ky so you put it together. What does that have to do with this, I am stuck with facts, and the fact is

1- The Pastor that beat me

2- and The Pastor who had a bad outreach.

3- And the woman who sold the Martin

All of them was doing every thing contrary to Gal 5 applied to the real "manifesting" and yet they still was "SIT" as VPW named it , or sorry "Charles H.Parham".

I do believe that if I am SIT it is "lifting myself up" and not "others" and therefore it is a selfish motive, and cannot be love at all, because love is given away. If I SIT I am just making a useless Noise in the air (to me). This is just a personal view that I have of real life events. And I have looked at my 'SIT" in the past that I have done, I see it was all just "my spirit period".

God bless

There is a difference between "lifting yourself up" which I would take to be pride and "building yourselfup" by SIT. The fruit is displayed because one is in submission to the Lord Jesus and the leadings of the HS. Fruit is not grown because you can occasionally be gentle, kind, temperate, etc.

Just because some people are off (balance) lol, doesn't mean that everyone who SIT is the same. I have never assaulted anyone while SIT, nor have I ever deliberately sold faulty goods. I tend to fear the Lord Jesus just a little too much.

So, your last comment was a little unclear..."Thanks for your ART. and exploring the Greek with me, and oh yes i see you "ex" from the Text hummmm I think I will like you, even though you need to see this ... hee hee... lol lol just kidding woo woo God bless you I thought I ran you all off the thread I told you all I had another view point. Hay I will say i see how you come up with some of those renderings but I cant say I can agree with your theory in general."

Thanks for my ART?? Ex from the Text?? So you don't agree with the Greek to English renderings?

Do let me know...Bless you and SIT much (anyway).

Tell ya what. Why don't you tell that to the IRS, ok?

Reread that article that Outfield posted, and you'll see why folks like George and I post what we do.

I read it or rather looked at the flow charts provided. The IRS may frown on it, but it is not illegal. As any good accountant will tell you (and this applies to secular businesses) "it is not illegal to AVOID paying taxes, only if you EVADE paying them. A NFP won't even come up on the IRS crosshairs until they start bringing in $100K per year at which time they must begin filing 1090's and declaring what they bring. So, if you are a qualifying church with active services on a regular basis and are tax exempt because of it, again why should the church apologize. Secular businesses AVOID paying taxes if they can as well. I think most of the shareholders of ENRON stock would have wished they could have looked at the books ahead of the catastrophe and then not just the CEO's etc. could have been allowed to dump their stock into the market as well.

I personally think that churches should be upfront and open to their congregants and adherants as a matter of integrity before the Lord...but to secular jerks? Just try and get a detailed analysis, completely open... of notable businesses and if there's a way to force a legal injunction against your desires, I'd bet they do it...even if it's just as simple as saying you're not a shareholder, etc.

As far as her ministry tithing, hallelujah.

Belle commentedMy comment: That's IT?? That's ALL they spend out of $8 million/month?!?!

Well, let's see, there are salaries to be paid, utilities, if they serve food, then kitchen costs etc. If the ministry owns vehicles, there's fuel, insurance, maintenance (whether they maintain them on grounds or outsource) there's publicity costs, they mfg their own teaching tapes/CD's, there's studio costs unless they have their own, if they do there's equipment costs for that, plus they might have health/life insurance for their employees and I'm sure the lists could go on and on, such as internet charges, telephone charges, it's not cheap to have 800 #'s for people to call in their prayers etc. etc.

So the fact that they give $880K per month....HALLELUJAH! This means lesser ministries are being provided for in the Lord's economy!

Please don't knock on ministries that you do not have an inside view of. Since I have a NFP myself, I watch what I do and constantly ask myself, "Will this look all right or would someone question my integrity?

Well, enough. I don't listen to her as much, but it bothers me when people just take back slaps without knowing the whole story. Because you can know this...secular newspapers will always write with their own slant and color whatever with the color they wish to paint with that day.

Ok, so far, unless I'm missing it somewhere, I haven't seen the actual yearly salary for Joyce Myers. I've seen what the ministry brings in and when she asks for money she mandates that the checks be made out to the ministry and not to her personally. SO WHAT'S THE PROBLEM???

Sounds like a spirit of JEALOUSY to me.

She also uses merchandizing techniques and I ask you what is wrong with that. I do not know of one travelling prophet or smaller evangelist who does not do the same. The only difference between the two is the size of the ministries. When the evangelist/prophet is still small....let's just call it a LOVE OFFERING...however, when they become well known...OH, NOW THEY ARE FLEECING THE FLOCK. Please, get real!

It is always easy to villainize those that are above you. It is always easier to pull down rather than to lift up.

"A middle-aged man wearing worn jeans pulled a wad of $20 bills from his pocket and placed them in an offering envelope. An elderly woman in a wheelchair wrote out a check for $100. "

Has anyone asked the obvious question yet? Maybe she's a rich old bag in a wheelchair??? Just because you sit in a wheelchair does not mean that you are living in a hovel and begging on the streets for your money. I hope you see the slant that this reporter is using??

Well, maybe it is just me....

“Don’t let mutterers stop you in life,” Meyer told them, shaking her fist in the air. “People are jealous, critical. They’re resentful. Most people want what you get but they don’t want to do what you did to get it.”

I WAS JUST ABOUT TO SAY ALMOST THE IDENTICAL THING!

"Granville said he’s heard the criticism of evangelists like Meyer: They live the high life while many of those who support them live at or near poverty."

BRIDE - "Assertions do not make the point! Could I please see Census Bureau reports for these statements??

“That’s between them and God,” Granville said. “If they’re getting the word of God out, why should they ride around in a 1980 Pinto? Is Joyce Meyer supposed to come out here in Salvation Army clothes or patched-up jeans?”

Meyer wears nothing but the best. Her clothes are tailor-made. She has a private hairdresser. Her nails are perfect. She wears glasslike slippers and dangly earrings and sparkly necklaces.

BRIDE - If you can afford to go to Sacs...would you go to the Salvation Army...I THINK NOT!

Her workers back in St. Louis pack the things she needs at the conference. Perrier water is a must.

BRIDE - "I carry my own water too. Oh, MY GOD...I have an undersink purifier...better get rid of that before I get criticized as well. So, she prefers a particular BRAND NAME....What is the BIG DEAL????

I buy certain brand names too, and I bet you do too!

"It takes four 18-wheelers to carry her products and stage setup from St. Louis to each conference.

On the road, Meyer and her husband live in exclusive hotels."

BRIDE - Sounds cost efficient to me...can you imagine what the postage would be like??

In Detroit, they stayed in a suite in the Townsend in Birmingham, Mich., the area’s richest suburb. The Townsend houses movie and rock stars when they appear locally. Privacy protection is the hotel’s hallmark, and it prides itself on its “discreet” handling of each guest. Suites cost about $1,500 a night."

BRIDE - Again, if you can afford it, you would too. Joyce is supposed to go down to "RENT-A-BOX" and sleep in the ghetto?

OH, PLEASE! No one here on this forum would do that, unless you are forced to, so why knock her about.

Why? Because she happens to be a minister? Even Jesus had an accountant (not too honest), but The Lord still had one! Bet He rode the best mule, too? Want to knock HIM? Be my guest!

Belle so kindly found Billy Graham's flow chart or whatever you call those wheels...Belle, could you find one for Joyce's personal salary? That would be very helpful if you could. Let's compare apples to apples. $400K for Billy is nothing to sneeze at either.

I am not personally a name-it-claim-it adherant. I do believe in tithing/supporting the works of the Lord. But I let the Lord tell me where I should give my money. When I was still in some churches, their theology was to give the tithing to them and any offerings/gifts were over and above 10% I do not buy this theology in particular. I do believe in supporting the church of your choice because there are costs to the upkeep of a ministry. But I let the HS give to me the %'s that I give to various ministries.

If that one guy was "giving" to get material wealth...HE WAS GIVING FOR THE WRONG REASONS! I'm sure his marriage had other problems besides giving to Myers.

"T.D.Jakes

Headquarters: Dallas

Reach: Jakes' "The Potter's House" TV program is seen throughout the world on TBN and Black Entertainment Television. His ministry boasts more than 26,000 members. A rally at the Georgia Dome in 1999 drew more than 100,000 people.

Wealth: He has mansions in Charleston, W.Va., and Dallas."

BRIDE - And I suppose that these reporters are living on skid row?

To me, it's just another "ministry", as in "business". This is a money-making venture that simply sells a non-tangible product.

"Prime-time religion" as it's been called.

Personally, I don't find a whole bunch of difference between televangelists and any other confidence racket. Hell, religion in general really provides NOTHING, but asks for a helluva lot. And they do it all without paying any taxes! Remarkable! What conman WOULDN'T want in on that game?

So, if you've got zero integrity and wanta make a whole bunch of dough, I recommend getting into the religion business. Manufacture nothing, honor NO guarantees, have no set schedule, just provide an extensive "customer service" department that makes a lot of empty promises and gives out a bunch of feel-good aphorisms, and you're set. Learn a few lines, "God loves you sooooo much!", "You're a really great person, even if everyone in the world thinks you're a jerk", "All of your cares in life will all be taken care of if you just trust God enough to send me all your money", and it wouldn't hurt to try to get some sort of unique "hook" so as to set yourself apart from all the other schemers in the same trade.

Oh, and repeat after me "God is soooo goood!" Un uhhh...

Sounds to me like you need to get in touch with King Jesus Himself, and if you are in Covenant with Him, under His blood, you will soon find out what that saying means..."God is sooooo gooood!" Amen! Hallelujah!

Yet Another Song-and-Dance, Hide behind the Name of God as an Excuse, Anti-Wall of Separation Between Church and State, ... Bloodsucker.

And so sad that so many people just shut their brains off and give her whatever she wants. And that is what makes her ministry so rich.

Well, Hello Garth. Haven't seen you since Waydale days. I do believe you're even more negative than you were at WayDale. But good to see you're still alive and kicking.

I hope this is not a bid for trashing Joyce Meyers!

3rd clause in verse 2: "for no one understands him" the word rendered "understand" is "akouei" it means "hear". And the word "for" would be better understood if translated as "in truth, in fact"

P.S. Your pic was a real shocker! Isn't there anything better you could have chosen from? Let me detach myself

from the electrodes your post threw at me.

3rd clause in verse 2: "for no one understands him" the word rendered "understand" is "akouei" it means "hear". And the word "for" would be better understood if translated as "in truth, in fact"

"in truth, in fact no one understands him"

4th clause in verse 2: "howbeit in the spirit he speaks mysteries" is "howbeit" a conjunction ?? well the word "de" (1161) is the Greek word used here and it is a "particle" and would be better understood as "indeed" and it goes with the previous

"Akouei", should be translated "understand" because it should be understood it is just not the hearing with the physical ear, but hearing with the end point of understanding.

"in truth, in fact no one understands him" "indeed he is speaking mysteries in the spirit"

"de" - is a conjunctive particle, marking the superaddition of a clause, whether in opposition or in continuation, to what has preceded, and it may be variously rendered: but, on the other hand, and, also, now, etc.

To translate as "indeed" would cause one to know that the Grk word used in the text would be "kai" as an emphatic. However, this is not the case.

The word spirit does not mean "The Holy Spirit" here but the persons spirit who is speaking, this is understood by

verse 14: "for if I pray in a unknown tongue my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful"

It uses what is called a possessive pronoun "my" (mou) and the Def. Art. "to" (3588) Lit. "the spirit mine" I have seen this by several Greek Scholars / Grammar heads, and I am forced to go with them on this one.

"pneumati" is a dative singular neuter would probably better fit the person, but SIT is a manifestation of the HS, it is HE that is manifesting Himself through the person's spirit which then utters the tongues.

So the question is not just the person that is speaking but who is giving the utterance. If I am sent with a message to declare, it may be my mouth speaking, but I am speaking for another and thus the words belong to that person and not necessarily to me.

The Holy Spirit can not be reached by speaking ecstatic utterances that cannot be understood. The Holy Spirit reveals Gods purpose he never hides it.

I most definitely would have to disagree with this assertion. He can be reached, because He is the one giving the tongues in the first place. I cannot tell you how many times, the HS commands me to SIT right now. If He couldn't be reached, I wouldn't bother. Who wants a distant and impersonal God?

verse 16: "else when you will bless with the spirit"

how does a person bless with the Holy Spirit , if he does not understand you ?? The subject in this verse is, the one who is speaking in a ecstatic utterance that is not understood by the listeners, and he is speaking mysteries to his self brought forth by his own imagination.

"Euloges" is rendered bless, but if I had translated this passage, I would have chosen the better rendering of "PRAISE" OR "GLORIFICATION." You are absolutely correct, one is not BLESSING towards a congregation, but the BLESSINGS OR PRAISE OR GLORIFICATION is heaven bound. It is uttered towards the Heavenly Father. Your sweet words are for HIS ears only. It is most definitely not IMAGINATION, brother. The mysteries are a two way street, for I believe through this process the Heavenly Father is also speaking HIS mysteries to my spirit, which then His Holy Spirit can cause to come to my 5 senses at whatever time He wishes.

I see that the "ecstatic utterances" was created by the Corinthians own spirit. Paul says these tongues not a understood human dialect, there not prophesying, there going to God only, there a creation of mans own spirit, and no one understands them I see that Paul counts them as meaningless.

Paul does not count them meaningless in their entire sense, but only if people are trying to understand them and trying to bring them into a 5 senses realm. Joe SIT and then I say, "Hmmm, I think it means...."

Now here is the first two verses in this Chapter, and what "I have seen" by way of other teachers in the holy text, this has soaked deep within my inner most being. Not to argue with anyone here at all !! This is like I said "just another view point". And if we only look at what only one teacher has taught us, we have put ourself in a box. I was a Pentecostal Minister for years and i did not always see tongues this way. Maybe God has shown you more deeper things than what I have shared with you, If he has Godspeed by friends.

God bless

Indeed, this is why you should read other scholars and let the HS teach you and lead you. Will everything you read be 100% correct? No! But all too often people in general, not everyone, are afraid to read outside of their denominational outlook because when they encounter differering viewpoints of theology, it frightens them deep down and so to avoid this confusion, they'll read only RC books or Presbyterian books or PFAL books, etc.

I do not wish to apply a brush stroke of color upon you, but it really sounds like your disillusioned to the max. I hope you get past this. I know it took me a long time to get off of the Waycycle, but it is do-able.

God Bless you in your efforts, I hope this humbly offered Greek information will help you in your pursuit of Truth. Please remember, Truth is not a "what", but a "WHO!" .