TRIUNE_GOD

Wow the Day of Pent. 'EVERY ONE HEARD THEM' In Cor 'NO ONE HEARS THEM" in Acts 2 'Dialectos' the root word is 'LEGO' and we see this root in THE LOGOS in Cor.14: "glossolalia"-= The root is Lalia which means JUST A NOISE not understood. see 1COR 13:1 sorry I am short on time .....lol lol that book you got it is full of problems dude . Check out that word Lord "YHWH" = GOD, not "adoni" Check out that word Lord "YHWH" = GOD, not "adoni" in many of these New test verses. CF Phlip 2:10 to the quote it comes from. In the old Testament I see that Jesus is "YHWH" of the old covenant . And this is why "so many" think unless you see Christ as God you cannot be Christian. Not here to argue just to show you what i see here from the other side of this dispute. Got to go to work sorry so short. God bless.

Sorry so long have been busy working i will have some time here soon. I am visually impaired ant it takes me hours to just type one Art. sheww But i am loving our Talk here you are meek i see and i really thank you for that. I am also glad you have a different view on things too as the bible says "IRON SHARPENS IRON" lol I will give you the documented statements on what i have as soon as i get a day off here. I did get a lot from DR.Z He is a Greek. Look up AMG Intl. I have a audio form (was Christ God) with permission to post it (from AMG) on a web site...looking forward to getting it on the Internet. You will admire it if you like Greek. We all are on different plains of understanding and I see that now after 10 Years lol lol God bless

Wow amazing how you differ with William Edward Jelf, Dr Z, and many more in some areas . I am forced to go with them on what they teach here. Agreed we do not even need a bible to go to heaven !! (we was just looking into it) I was just showing how accurate the Greek was remember now. Aman and HE is also could be the Subject in Verse two, glad you see this because when you get to verse three it makes the Word creator of all things :) You will have a hard time to prove that the Subject and the Predicate CANNOT be switched in Sect bSee was Christ God audio on Sect B in Verse one. hummmm sorry but i also see this in William E Jelfs works as well . see A.T. Robersons "A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in light of Historical Research" If you are correct, can you document WHO you get this from that we cannot switch out The Subject with the Pred. when both have a Def. Art. in the same clause. ?? Thanks for your concern here sorry I should have said 'tov" just use to writing as it sounds. But it does say "thee God" pointing to the Father. Wow not what i see at all. It is very important to see this (to me). Ok i looked again here on this section rather than tell you "I" come up with all this, it would be a lie and I just learn as the Elders teach. Seems you are disagreeing with a well known scholar here Complete Word Study New Test page #305 "thee God " in Sect B also see Was Christ God audio in Sect B Hay i like how we are both learning here I have no denomination I do not even go to Church at all, or fellowship (in person) with anyone so how can I push a Denom. Am I going with a Group when The bible shows no details that "Jesus hung on a Cross with a cross beam" in it (that i see)?? Could it be so if I use Dr Lamsa, Taz Russel, Dr Wierwill, and many more. These cult like leaders I use there works to look at another view point. I am open here very much and I see a lot of people doing a lot of stuff to 'not accept Christ as God". And when I thought Christ was just a a Creature I could say the same about guys like me lol lol So we are forced to go with truth if we want it. Here is what I take as truth "the Word has always been toward The Father" And the Greek proves it lock stock and barrel. We are just going to spin our wheels unless you start documenting stuff, by well known and reliable scholars, so i could examine them. Otherwise i am like you and need statements here. Do you have any AT Roberson, or Jelfs works, What about Dr Z you should have him. GOD BLESS YOU

In the Complete Word study New Testament With Greek Parallel PG 865 #44 So English is not going to carry what is here unless you add words. I asked myself a question if the "Word is God" then when is God not eternal" Look again at this tense on the word "een" in JN 1:1 In fact is is said to be derived from the word "EIMI" in the I AM. This is not how I understand it. The Def Art. has nothing to do with a word being a noun or a verb, the Art. makes the Subject sometimes. But not always because when the Subject and predicate both have Def. Art. they are interchangeable. look at our verse here.JN 1:1B "kia ho logos een pros ton theon " we can switch out the subject with the predicate here. "kia ton theon een ho logos" The Def. Art does not determine a noun Further look here in sect C "kia theos een ho logos" Is not 'theos' God. Is he not a noun this section, where is the ART. here?? Look the ART. modifies a noun lets look again here in Sect B "and the Word was toward the God" This word 'theon" has a ART. before it, and therefore modifies "theon" it is 'ton theon" or, "tou theou". The Bible is saying in Sect b: "GOD" no, "a God" no, but "THEE God", Yes Because the Word (logos) is not "Thee God" in this Section, but the Word (logos) is God in sect C. So "tou" [Art.] is needed for the word to Fit with no contradictions. The word is saying to me here in a paraphrase: "and the Word has always been toward the Father" Now It would be wise to look at this too: "when a word does not have a DEF Art.in front of it, it brings forth the person or thing spoken about, general character". This is why in section C, the logos is 'theos", not "ton theon". Here we see "theos" meaning "God in his fullness" And from my position I see God in his fullness means "Father Son Spirit" these all three make up 'theos"/"elohim" Just what I see here. Glad we brought this out to look at Def. Art. a bit and wow I do know it takes a very skilled Grammarian here and I take a back seat and learn, as the elders of the holy Catholic [universial] Church teaches. So true and you know what here it does even more. Changes form to indicate distinctions in case, tense, mood, number, voice, and others in its pronouns, they change form to show whether they are used as subjects, this Dialect is very complex. Hay God bless

Hi wayslider glad you wrote. I see you have a good head to think with lol lol Wow you have truly grew a bunch WOW You say this it brings ROM. 1:20 to mind. And I think "God could convey a message by other means " by looking at that Verse it says just that. And I have been what they call "prophesied to" many times over and over, in a group or single, and cannot remember but only a few. But when God tells me something IT STICKS and he has used a Semi truck, Radios, bird, Chickens, and ministers just teaching on a program or at a Church service. God richly bless you my friend. Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and the Lord Christ Jesus.

I do not know about the past here, But I must say EVERYONE has been very nice to me. With all due respect, I have had nothing but things said to me in a loving way here in this thread. And WE (in this Thread) all do not all agree on this, but we still come together and share what we think about this topic. They say like "I disagree" or "I do not see it that way" And anotherdan said to me "I would like to see what you got to say about the subject" after i told him i had another view point. That is love/Meekness manifesting (to me). This is very biblical what we are doing here. There is so much of the Word on here WOW no matter what side you agree with, there is meat in this thread for all growth levels . Maybe God put all of here on this thread, for others to learn from. Or that we can disagree, and still love EA other NO MATTER WHAT. "Come let us reason together" Put yourself in my shoes how would you take someone that says to you 1) Your Wrong 2) Thank you for crying uncle. So am I to take your word that it is "THEM" in this thread.

You use a big dart there "YOUR WRONG" and your user name says "lovematters" hummm I am confused I have been wrong before, and I am sure I am wrong on stuff now and I admit it. That is why I try stay meek so I can receive the implanted word I want to ask you what is more important: 1) the word of God 2) "argument predates VP by thousands of years" So IF i am wrong on "argument predates VP by thousands of years" no big deal at all. But if I am wrong in the Word THAT IS A BIG DEAL. So I take your "YOUR WRONG" as no threat at all. Sorry I do not want to come off to you or anyone as harsh AT ALL, If I have please forgive me. God Bless

I am not god first off it is just a screen name that was not chosen, and it is a statement of faith. "together with yet distinctly independent of" this is a VPW Interp. (maybe more) of the word "pros" Although he does make a attempt to show that "the word is not Thee God" there is no debate about the word "pros" today by REAL scholars it is proven can be "face to face" "toward" "with". Look OUTSIDE the ways resources (not saying you do not). "Pros" 4311 Prep. governing the gen.,dat.,acc primary=Toward. Now I think it is important for me to say this at this time here. Rarely is "pros" and only in later use, this word drops its meaning as "motion, direction" and pros with the acc. means the same as "para" in the Dat. "near" and in JN one we see this. cf MT 13:56, Mark 2:2,4:1, 6:3, Phile.1:13. Now here is something I just learned this week, and had to re group my thinking. I had thought Pros only showed motion. I looked closer as I came to see "pros" more accurately. This was brought to me by a Greek almost 90 Yo., who speaks Greek 'DR. Peter Courtless" from the American Baptist association. I came home and what did I see... just what I shared with you to be true. now you are correct in that 'ho logos" goes way back before the NT. (you did not bust my bubble I knew this) Glad you brought it out. The "logos" was known by many, (before Christ becoming flesh) That the Logos was the creator of the universe. That is why many think thee Holy Spirit choose to use "ho logos" in JN Chapter 1 as the creator of ALL things (V3), and therefore God (1:1C). Not a god (1:1C), and not the Father (1:1B). He (v2) is "the Logos" not "a" Logos (v-1,a,b,c) Christ is Logos (v-14) "creator of all things"(v-3) Logos is very clear in these verses (to me) who he is. Thank you for your input it is a pleasure. I would love to go on in this Chapter, but this thread is about SIT. I think we have so much to share here, we may need a thread on it. God Bless

You should look in your Greek closer, I see several problems. You said "Straight from the Greek" Imposable you left out a Def. Art. before the word "theon" in Sect b. And added another "the" in Sect A, and scrambled up Sect. C. 1) where is your word support for "the" in "in beginning" ? 2) Why did you leave out the word "the" in " with THE God" ? 3) Why did you scramble up the words [you quoted] "and the Word was God" ? 4) Why did you put the word "een" [has always been] in the past tense ? If it is so easy why add, and scramble, and subtract, place in the wrong case, these words ?? here it is "from the Greek" putting "een" in the present tense, because we see it in past with your rendering and it is not either past or present in Greek. In Beginning is the Word and the Word is with the God and God is the Word This makes as much science as putting that word "een" in the past to me. the reason this is so important because the inspired Dialect of the NT. is pure and spotless "Holy" "ios". in Set C, it makes the Word a Person. Therefore it is not a "written word" or a "word of speech", but "a person". Some sects has tried to dance around this for years and the word is very clear that "ho logos" in JN 1 is a person, the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. But this is another debate. This verse "paraphrased" to ENG for a clear understanding of what is seen in the Greek, therefore It is not a Translation at all. "BEFORE ANY BEGINNING HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE WORD AND THE WORD HAS ALWAYS BEEN WITH THEE GOD AND GOD HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE WORD THIS PERSON HAS ALWAYS BEEN IN THE BEGINNING WITH THEE GOD." Just what I see here. look at your Greek in this Verse, see what is going on here. You are a wise man and I really enjoy talking to you, Hope to hear form you after the Holidays. You should look this up in the Greek. I know we got off topic here sorry :( God Bless

VPW did not even have a clue what worship was (if he did he hid it good). How could he tell me how to worship when he claims that Christ is not to be worshiped. "THAT IS TOTALLY UNFOUNDED" Never one time where the word "WORSHIP" appears in the bible you see "SIT" in the same context. And add "only in Cor 14 it ever appears" and Paul is not going along with it at all (that i see) "Proskuneo" is from the word "Pros" meaning With, side by side, face to face, Showing motion not like 'Sun" or "meta" "Kuneo" means to "kiss, adore" Used to pay homage, and Reverence to deity. see LXX: Gen. 47:23, 1 Kings 1:47 a) Used of God when in the absolute science. b) Used of the messiah when in the dative case, see Heb.1:6 This is my understanding of Worship. "the Father seeks to be worshiped " JN 4:23 "Christ accepts worship" MT 8:2,9:18,14:33,15:25,18:26,28:9 " The Father loves for us to worship his "monouneis" [one of the same race nature and stock of himself] and likes his creation to worship his Son. If you have a child and you see that child gets a honer for something they did, does it not please you and make you glow inside ?? just what I see here. God bless

True there is ways around it and that is why I do not "put down" paraphrases, only sometimes in the sections where there scholar was "errant", or they may have a good point somewhere it is useful at times :) True but it then becomes less accurate, and a paraphrase (to me). Let the word in its God-Breathed dialect show us how accurate it is cf to ENG. I am sorry to say this my friend, but I am forced by what I have seen in GK to say the KG is way more colorful and we cannot carry what is here (to my understanding). no harm meant to you. but it is just what I have learned till this day. Several of us was researching out to see if The Word was eternal in John chapter one. so we hit this word "een" or "en" in the Ipf tense. where is the grammar support for a TRUE translation here? There is none for the word "een" (that I have seen), in this context at all. Some scholars think this to be a eternal verb. Can we "accuratly" place this in English, unless I add a word, and if I add a word we no longer have the inspired written word, but just "another translation". Can that than be a "true" translation?? JN 1:1,2. en arche EN ho logos kia ho logos EN pros tou theou kia theos EN ho logos hutos EN en arche pros tou theou. Why add a word in Eng. here to use it as a paraphrase, because if we would want contrast or get to the "rightly divided word" one would need to place it in Imperf tense into ENG. Translations put in mostly Past here, because of "the beginning" that JN 1 and verse 2 is speaking of here. There looking at Gen:1 "en arche" in the LXX. but lets move on and not get into " arche" but note that the "en " applied to Christ in the context of JN 1 and it is is ALWAYS IN Ipf. (to my understanding) "Before any beginning "had always been" the Word and the Word "had always been" with the God and God "had always been" the Word this person "had always been". A "paraphrase" on the word "en" and more accurate than almost every English translations that I have seen on this word. "the Word had always been God" they put it in the past because JN 1 is speaking of the "eternity" of the word, and our minds can only think of the first "arche" in Gen. but the word "een", says the Word goes farther back than any beginning, and is eternal. This is just what i see and I see they have good and bads to them lol lol. Despite they (Jonathese Gerber, and his wife) missed this word "theos" and tries to add a Indef. Art. He did pick up on the Word "arche" in Jn. 1a,2. In his "In beginning" but messes it up in that Jesus Christ was first created in many passages with the word "archee' . So I do like to say that I see what he was looking at in JN 1:1,2- "en arche" but it is to the Watchtowers shame to allow Gerber to push his "Slanted Translation" in to there "New World Translation" and it is even worse I have seen some from VPWs group go with Gerber on this one, and add to the words in JN 1:1c. "a god". God bless

Sorry I should have been more clear, ( what you shared with us in the GK in your article above) The Greek ex or ek in Gen = as though a part was taken from the whole. like "eklego" get out from the scriptures using logic is what i was trying to say :). English can not be "the original" English can not carry the Grammar Support, therefore it cannot be a True Translation at all. God gave it to us in Koine Greek, so we would need to have another, a more complex dialect to to translate it more accurate. But we have it paraphrased in many Dialects now "Praise God" that is super, i think we should use them all, and the Greek adds contrast to it.Here is a story how God can use another translation. We (a kitchen full of people) that had two interlinear bibles with 8 different Trans. in each of them. I had a AMP,RSV,NKJV,NRSV,NJ,LAMSA,NIV,KJV,NWT we had so many at our fingertips I cannot recall them all. We wanted to do a study to see what all these translators had to say about that big word "by" in Heb.1:2,JN1:3. and the word "God" in JN 1:1c. They seen real fast and quick, after every one read about 20 different renderings of scholars translations, a girl (that was smart as a tack) spoke up after one in the group said "there all wrong" in HEB. there not going with the "accuracy" and the NWT is WAY out man..." The girl said your nuts, and out numbered bad, even the NWT has Heb right on with the other bibles. where did you go to school at. The kids really gave him a hassle over it. But to say that Eng. is not useful would be very wrong, and back to the box again i go lol lol. What is the difference if I said "lift ME" "Build ME" "magnify ME" "edifith Me It is MYSELF and Paul makes this clear. and that is what I think anyway, and the bible is saying here. "MY" in Cor. 14. And the word "spirit" can only be determined by its context, like "arche", as to what "spirit" or what "beginning". no where in this Chapter is God the Holy Spirit ever brought out. But "my spirit" is in this context several times. (just what i see here). "He that speaks in a tongue edifieth HIMSELF" Verse 14 "for if I pray in a tongue MY SPIRIT PRAYS" in submission to the Lord Jesus, AND IF a person is not in Sub. according to GAL. 5, will "NOT ENTER"and in turn has never been saved, and is guilty as of the people Christ speaks of in that last day in MT 7. "Lord Lord (even profess his deity here) have not we taught in your name , in your name did all these things, Jesus says to them I NEVER KNEW you, depart from me you WORKERS OF SIN." These People only professed, like "even the devils believe and tremble" there must be "faith that works" a "working faith" but here is another debate, and lets move on. Wow I looked over just on these last couple posts we did, and there is some meat in just what we covered in these last two verses. Wow that was only two verses lol lol sheww wee. I do say you got me digging (in the word) here lol lol Wow glad to hear your comment, and glad to see another view point ...makes me want to look at Verse 3 now hee hee God Bless

Grace and peace to you my Friend and I thank you so much for your uplifting words. I do want to say You are a very special person, and you are so right " "YES THE LOVE OF CHRIST AND GOD SAVES ME" And you said it is such a way that my 17 YO Daughter can understand it. Thank you so much God Bless

Sure I have been through the mill on this topic lol lol . he is the one that started this mix up in 1902, strange that Taz Russel and him established these movements in the same year. Yes VPW just took up this theory as well. I will say VPW did take a lot of this theory but he did not go as far as CHP. CHP taught that the "Holy Ghost" came after conversion, some call this teaching the 2ed work of grace. I have came against this teaching, when I found out by the late "Dr. J. Vernon Mcgee" in this series "through the bible" as he unfolds the truth about 'Spirit baptism' and I was a assistant Pastor at a Pentecost Church of God at the time lol lol. Dr J Vernon Mcgee brings out "sound teaching" when he hits "LEV 22,23,24, Cor. 12 ETC. as He unfolds the REAL TRUTH in his teaching about the body and bride of Christ. I would like to add here that if a person really thinks this is true teaching and "you must speak in the Heavenly Language to have the baptism of the Holy Ghost, look at just one Verse: "For by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body" 1Cor.12:13 And in that verse it is clear what Spirit baptism does. "places a believer in the body of Christ". Further there is problems for the trinitarian pentecostal your teaching says I can have the Holy Spirit but not the HOLY GHOST (until i SIT). How does that match when you are for a 3 part God. here is what you say to me "God the Father, God the Son God the Holy Ghost, God the Spirit. so you bring to people a quad God (to me). Oh I forgot we taught but "THEE HOLY GHOST" is the FULLNESS of God. brandhamittes and oneness Pentecostal teach "you must SIT to be saved" and use Acts 2:38 as there base Verse. And water baptism is a MUST, and it must be in "Jesus name only" and they butcher MT 28:19 bad. baptismal regeneration with evidence of SIT is the REAL EVIDENCE of a TRUE Christian. I do think Oral Roberts should have went farther when he split from classic Pentecost, and there 2ed work of grace theory. Oral did come to see that the Spirit baptism came upon salvation, and the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit was the same person in the Godhead, but he was still errant in the tongue theory (I think anyway). God Bless you all

Well a pastor of a local Church, was speaking in a "ecstatic utterance" when: HE BEAT ME AND TOOK ME TO THE GROUND THIS YEAR!!" He was charged with "ASSULT" for doing that to me. I wonder if that was THEE HOLY GHOST ?? A lady in a local Church came in Speaking in what they call "the heavenly Lang." ohh my... everyone there thought she had the Holy Ghost " Boy O boy " well In just a week she sold a Martian D28 to a Preacher for a market value of 1500.00 cash. I went with him on the sale. She said "oh my husband had this most of his life, and there is nothing wrong with it". Well he took it home and after he played 2 songs the putty fell out, and the tone changed on it "it was cracked." which cost around 700.00 to fix, i said to the Preacher "And she spake in tongues too". The Preacher (being for SIT ) said to me "I FIGURED SHE WAS ONE OF THEM" hA HA I about died...lol lol, after he understood what he agreed to, he felt bad. Wonder if THE HOLY SPIRIT was speaking in a utterance through her at the services we had together. ?? I was a teacher at this Local Church and most knew I did not see the "sign gifts for today" (that is another debate) but the Pastor did. All was well and many were blessed by it , to see that we could worship together. I was watching to see if he would what you all call "Manifest". The reason I watched is because I knew the Bible in Gal. Ch 5: it teaches "The fruit of the Spirit is the real "Manifest"." and if a person professes to be Christian, and lives day after day in a sinful state and did not produce or "manifest" these... "he will not "ENTER" the kingdom", and turn has "never" been a Christian. Passages like this one, is the ones we must ask our selfs, (and I do) "am I manifesting these fruits " "is this the manifesting of the Holy Spirit for us today" Almost everyone in this town knows the Pastor and mock him bad because of the life stile he lived. It really hurt his out reach in the community, and the Church sat mostly empty because of it. I tried my best "to know no one after the flesh". One service he finally stood up and: "e col a ba higha, e shon dia, e sodia a mo tia " I said within my self "ok now lets hear God talk through you" and sure thing like clock work...say no more. One month later to two, the Church burned to the Ground, his girlfriend found out about the one in Ky so you put it together. What does that have to do with this, I am stuck with facts, and the fact is 1- The Pastor that beat me 2- and The Pastor who had a bad outreach. 3- And the woman who sold the Martin All of them was doing every thing contrary to Gal 5 applied to the real "manifesting" and yet they still was "SIT" as VPW named it , or sorry "Charles H.Parham". I do believe that if I am SIT it is "lifting myself up" and not "others" and therefore it is a selfish motive, and cannot be love at all, because love is given away. If I SIT I am just making a useless Noise in the air (to me). This is just a personal view that I have of real life events. And I have looked at my 'SIT" in the past that I have done, I see it was all just "my spirit period". Thanks for your ART. and exploring the Greek with me, and oh yes i see you "ex" from the Text hummmm I think I will like you, even though you need to see this ... hee hee... lol lol just kidding woo woo God bless you I thought I ran you all off the thread I told you all I had another view point. Hay I will say i see how you come up with some of those renderings but I cant say I can agree with your theory in general. God bless

Another Forbidden Post. Christian Research Fellowship was ran by the late John D Hendricks. CRF. is a Way offshoot That has the same Jesus of the Way Christian Research Fellowship is said to be a "very conservative" on the original teachings of Dr. Victor Paul WierwIlle. They have a group of trainees called "Lights", There based out of Marietta, GA Books published !) Prosperity God's Way 2) Easy to Believe 3) God's Healing Word 4) Power from on High Seminars 1) Prosperity God's Way 2) Renewed Unto Love 3) Sonship 4) The Living Hope Classes 1) Foundational ( To Know God) 2) Advanced (nine Manifestations) Rev. John D. Henricks in his book titled "God's Healing Word" Butchers the "Greek" when he Add's a word after he Quotes the Greek in his book. and any thinking man would see this. I confronted Rich*rd L*e He*ter about this, and Mr.He*ter would not take the time to look it up. let us look at it. God's Healing Word p#177 "John 18:19 ...and with him others"two" on this side and on that side" I thought Dr. Wierwille taught when we add to the word we "no" longer have a "translation." Now look at page 171-172 in "God's Healing Word" Hendricks Quotes "Not only does Stevens text omit the word "one":every text omits the word "one": It is simply a dishonest insertion. The Greek words used are duo enteuther kia enteuthern, meaning "Two"on this side and "two" on that side. " Hendricks God's Healing Word. Does any one out there see this it is clear he adds to the text. He just said there is no "word" in any Text for "one" and one who believes his clams ask yourself a question where is the word support for "two 2x"?

Thank you so much for saying that. The reason I thank you is the fact we all like to be lifted up, and when I hear you say that I try to place myself in your shoes. If I was in your shoes I would like to be thanked, and lifted us as well. I really thank you all here on GSC. GSC is a ministry with in every one of you working together as a whole. God bless you my friends. waysider All this is all fine but if I speak to you in a way that come to you as anything other than speech that we can understand I will be looking into that mirror again and say to myself " YOU BLEW IT AGAIN" Everyone on GSC I want to personally say to EA. and every one of you "Thank You" I do not want to make these posts to come across to you wrong in any WAY at all. I have had nothing but support from every one of you, you never one time took a swing at me (that I know of) he he . But I do say I know as well as a "Lot" of you we both do not agree in a lot of areas AT ALL!! Should we not fellowship ? Should we avoid the Subjects ? Will we grow together if we hunger for it , discuss it, and we are meek to receive it ? This is again just things I ask myself. God bless

HERE IS ANOTHER FORBIDDEN POST Akribos Theological Fellowship. Quotes this on there Web Site. "By whom and when was the doctrine of the Trinity established?" Most Ex-Wayers (all that I have seen) Will take you to the Council of Nica in 325 AD. But notice they "leave the Word" and go to the council of "Nica." Wierwille did this in his teaching about "isos" ??? This is a side step, "scared to face the Truth". If we go to the "Bible" as our "final authority" in all "Teaching" as they teach to do. One would need to ask their self a question, what is "the final" or "first" authority, the council of "Nica" ??? You think These Ex-Wayers would open up, "THE WORD OF GOD" and look for the answers This is sooooo "deceiving" about there "Way", not "seeing" what the "accuracy" of "bible" teaches. The "accuracy" of the "Koine Greek" is a "fact" alone that "proves" the case. The Greek is "the Inspired language" of the New Testament in which it was written to us. Every Ex-Wayer I have seen teach, The New Testament is not in Greek but Aramaic. If this is true why do "Ex-Wayers" use so much Greek??? They teach this because "they say" the oldest manuscript's are after Nica in 325. This is totally "unfounded"! "#P52 papyrus" John 18:31-33(front), 18:37-38 (back) "125 AD. in "Greek" There is more to add let us move on. First Century writers F.J., J M. wrote in "Koine Greek". Also do you think maybe the LXX "was God preparing the people for the New Testament language"??? "all " reliable Aramaic scholars agree, the Aramaic text is pulled from Koine Greek. The "Aramaic scholar" that Wierwille claimed as his "friend" did not agree to this at all, and that is "Dr.George Lamsa." He believed the "Pedangta" was "Thee Inspired Text". Whether you "accept his claims" or not, look at the "Lamsa" translation. MT 28:19 "Go, therefore, and convert all nations: and baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Dr.G Lamsa So "if" The Aramaic is inspired for the New Testament Then MAT. 28:19 is "INSPIRED OF GOD" and this verse "is" in Aramaic and is "Genuine" according to "Dr.George Lamsa" and "his" Translation", and 28:19 is also in "all" major Greek manuscripts so now what ??? 'It never was carried out" some Ex-Way people claim this a lot. And the Editor and Chief of the Ryburn Christian Clarion "Ri*k He*ter" claims this as well. If "Ex-Wayers " would accept the "Inspired Word" they are "forced" to see that 28:19: is carried out. Look at Acts 1:8 "unto the uttermost part of the earth" then peter tells the "Jews" in 2:38, "In the name of Jesus Christ" Have you ever thought why this Way theology " tries" to delete MT 28:19. Because this verse and others, Dr. ignored he "side steps" this verse. And when this verse is "accurately" divided, the "true accuracy" is a major "threat" to the ways, of the Ex-Wayer. We can see in Greek the benediction to the Corinthians by Paul in 2 Cor. 13:14 "The grace [of] "The lord Jesus Christ" and the love [of] "Thee God" and the communion [of] "Thee Holy Spirit" [be] with you all" Look at it in Aramaic. This is "sound truth", the " true accuracy" of "God's-Breathed Word." "Three" are at question here, notice in MT 28:19 "in the names" ??? no, no, my friend look closer in "Thee Name". There is three names here but the Greek we will see [onoma] "name" not names. Showing us by the usage of this word "onoma" 1+1+1= ONE ONOMA the "context" and "grammar" of this word is stressing "only one" we see "three persons" of that "one onoma" mentioned here in Mat.28:19 and carried out by Peter in Acts Ch.2,Paul in 2 Cor. 13 So did Dr.Wierwille say, "currant flow" of the context must, "fit remote flow", go to sections of the word where it is used before. Did he "even try" his own theory here in 2 Cor.13:14, Mat. 28:19, what is the remote flow of these contexts ??? "What is more important "the Word" or the writings of "John Doe" ??? Was a reply in an e-mail "we" got from "Dr.John J" around 2004-05 when, "when we were working it". Dr.John J was willing to help, provide Greek textural support help in any way, as "we" was researching this out. But Pastor Tad Hobert from North Riverdale Grace Brethren Church in Dayton Ohio, pointed out true "major facts" about the 1st,2ed,3rd Century writers, "post" Nica. and points out the "stile" of writings, and how many times they did "actually" quote "28:19. And the English Translation Proves it as well. The Greek Adds "contrast to it. And every copy he "has" examined or owned, is "not" as Ri*k He*ter was teaching at all." As Pastor Tad hobert points this out in my Living Room. Using his "documented" facts and his "knowledge" of the First Cent. Writings. Also pointing to some "triune immersions" as "he" felt was carried out as well. We looked at what Dr.John J points out on his web site "They quoted many times with a Trinity stile" Tad agreed, everyone else agreed 100% after the rest of us researched these "true facts out". Thank you both, Pastor Tad Hobert with Fellowship of Grace Brethren Churches, Dr John J with Lutheran Churches, in " revealing" this unsound teaching, that these "Ex-Wayers teach. about " the Forgery of MT 28:19 " ???

Well after I had sat down with the Man in my GFs APT. talking about the 4 others Crucified, three Days in a row until 5 in the Morning, I wanted more. So he could not feed as fast as i needed for my hunger. He turned me on to a book by Rev. John d Hendricks titled "easy to believe" in this book he covered many topics. I took everything he said a s solid truth, but i tore that book up in just one week day and night study. I used the man next door to speak the Greek words to me, and answer questions I had. The Man was very smart is what VPW had taught him in WAY Core, and PFAL, and he had a degree, and knew VPW personally. But I needed more FAST, he said to me "J.R. you are growing real fast and you have a hunger for the Word" so he begun to show me some of DRs works the first book from VPW he let me study was "Gods Magnified Word" WOW I really swallowed what it said hook line and sinker. with in the next Month I was wanting more I had studied GMW/ETB over and over and could quote it more than the Bible. I took the teachings REV Hendricks serous, and ordered almost 'EVERY TEACHING CRF had to offer, I was Studying them day and night for months and used the man next door as a mentor. I really trusted the man and I thought that he was a God send. and we said many times "CHRISTIANS IN THE WORLD HAS GOT IT ALL WRONG" and they do not care about the 'accuracy in the word". Well that is just what cult thinking does to a person, "gets it all backwards" in reverse. I thought that the world needed to hear more of this and it was our duty to teach this to the people. I was overseeing a Chapel at that time and allowed this man to become out teacher/song leader. Then I got us on a local TV station and we produced 3 years of what He had learned and I had learned, pushing a FALSE JESUS. GOSPEL, SPIRIT, and in turn produced FALSE BROTHERS But at the time all this was going on I was digging myself in deeper and deeper i studded more of the Ways books "RtHST", i red orange books, green, gold, brown, red, ETC wow what a impact it all had. I went on to dig even deeper and wanted more, and soon the man next door could not feed me any more. And Hendricks ha ha he was a joke, I wrote him and we had 9 People from the Chapel that wanted to take his 'Advanced Class" Christian Research and Fellowship never even wrote us back. I even called them, "nothing". I said well I need FOOD DANG IT. Then the man next door after 12 Months comes off some meat "Jesus Christ Was Not God 1st Ed 1971 Danggggg mannnn this was my break through i was in now !!! I took that book out of his hands so fast and cut him real short, and went into my APT down the Street, and locked myself in for 4 Days and nights studying it thoroughly. JCNG book was where i begun to see problems, but I would not fess up to it, because I had already taught the people in the Chapel, and TV that Jesus was not God and was just a Man like us but he had "divine revelation" and it could not be wrong because if Jesus was God "it would not fit", and it "had to fit Like a hand in a glove" i learned in VPW book. And later in a PFAL Class that was held by another local splinter group. I began to attend CFF in Tipp City Ohio and John S. was too milky to feed me, and his daughter tought good but she could not do it either. But there was a man that could feed me 'Wane Clapp" now he got my attention and could feed me, but he was just repeating things I learned in VPWs/Hendricks books, and he did not speak a lot, so I just by passed all that and got a lot of his teachings. I was exposed to the Max, and knew about Way teaching than most that had been in for decades. I do recall a woman that knew me for years told the Teacher "you better hope you are right MR because if you are not J.R will find out because I really believe God is with him, and you will regret it if you are wrong here RI*K." That statement came from one of the flock and I was terrified at it, it shook me bad for weeks and even months, she had all 7 of her kids attending the Chapel. I asked God to show me if I am wrong I will listen. Then one day I was listening to a radio program at work in a laundry room fixing up a con op washer. The speakers was in the Ceiling and this Greek guy came on the wave and said these words 'I want to talk to you today about the tryune God, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit" well I got so upset and said out loud "WELL HOW IN THE HADYS CAN HE BE A GREEK AND SPEAK GREEK RAISED A GREEK TEACH ME ABOUT A 3 HEADED FALSE GOD" So I took out my screwdriver and poked out every speaker in the place. But I still heard him in the Transistors in the radio, so i took out my hammer and busted it all to pieces. I said " NOW YOU GREEK YOU WILL NOT TEACH THIS IN THIS LAUNDRY ROOM TO THESE PEOPLE" HA HA take that you GREEK GEEK !! As i left i was upset so much it showed, I ran into a Pastor of a Local big Church. He said to me Jay what is wrong are you upset about something ? I droped my tools and said "YES I AM VERY" he said why ?? I said have you ever heard of a man called DR. Z ?? OHHHH YESSSS J.R. he is a Elder in the Church universal, and is a Greek and is very wise in the scriptures. I said " IF HE IS SO WISE HOW IS HE TEACHING A 3 HEADED FALSE GOD??" THE Pastor said to me "Jay I am not for it but I will say that I never took the time to sat down and really study it , and I cannot go against him or the teaching because I never took the time to study it....HAVE YOU ??" I responded No not really he said to me "J.R. I think you owe it to you and them people in that Chapel to search it out, J.R. I love you man but I really think you have fallen into a trap" I said well I can say the same about you. His reply is what made me start to turn around he said " J.R. Act as if you are a Judge and you have a Plaintiff and a defendant and you MUST HEAR OUT BOTH SIDES IN THE COURT !!" Well I found myself going back into VPWs books and looking he messed up the Godhead so bad. Every time VPW tried to delete the deity of Christ he Butchered the Greek, Gk grammar. He even gave two different meanings for the same Greek word in the same case. in the same book lol lol And when I looked at the other side of the case it was really interesting to me I never seen where VPW hit the word(s) translated LORD/lord "adoni" and YHWH" what a Joke this man was and I fell for it. wow Do you know what sudo I am happy but sad I lost all my old friends, They will not even speak to me to this day. because i am a trinitarian in by belief system, and speak up when I hear error and they cannot accept challenge, they say oh yes but when the time comes they run away. It could be me and just to stupid to see it. God Bless you suto

It does hurt my head too, it reminds me of when I was in the 'Jesus Only" movement AKA oneness Pentacost. and was under the teachings of a Willam M Branham lol lol. Another person that claimed the end of the world was going to come at a certain date. I can say this about VPW he did show me the distinctions in the Father and Son and Spirit, He just needed to take Lamsas advise on some of this stuff. Although Dr Lamsa was well known by Aramaic scholars, "to think Aramaic was the inspired text". Dr Lamsa did not see the persons in the Godhead either, but said they was different "attributes". But regardless he still seen that there was distinctions in the Godhead, and that Christ and the Holy Spirit had always been God, and they was co-equal and co-eternal. We all get some things wrong because we are ever learning. Even the guy you all put on in your radio Programs John J. he really pushes the Cross theory on that web site, and he cannot prove it in the inspired text at all !! (that I have seen). He takes his readers to the word "crux" Come on John you are a smart man and to go with the "Lutherans/Catholics" rather than "The Word" ? I really agree with John J. in a lot of areas, but to swing a reader to the "Latin" to "try" to prove the cross theory hummmm Do not get me wrong I personally think the "Cross" should be taught, but to say that Christ actually was Crucified on a wood stake with a cross beam like you see in the Pics, is being dishonest (when it comes to actually what is written) to me. John I really would like to see how you handle the "GREEK" in this area I am ready to listen, but the Latin is just another Translation like the Aramaic is, you know this John. Thanks belle I really did not know about the things you said about the women on here and VPW so I am glad to remove that avie.

I really did not think it bothered people but I guess it did, wow Now I see why people was not talking to me. I thought it was the fact they thought i was a "polytheist" or it was My under arms hee hee lol lol Thanke for telling me, and BELLE thanks for your 3 headed jesus lol lol I have seen that one around, that one is for a "Oneness' groups, like the "apostolic Church" not me hee hee

Wow he has 3 heads ?? when he told me in his word there is only one Godhead "theotes" in COL 2:9 "in him [Christ] dwelleth all the fullness of the "theotes" bodily" The word does not state 'theotes' is Plural at all !! and this is the only place this word is used in the NT. I will try not to make the same mistake Moffiet and Brackateer, Gerber did in ROM 1:20, JN 1:1C, The word teaches a "Mono God" One God, not three Heads lol lol I know you was just saying what they think. But I go with Bullanger 100%, and Dr. Lamsa (to an extent), and many more on the Godhead. I really think "Jonatheese Greber" in his green phantom translation, really messed this up, for Taz Russel (founder of the Watchtower) in the NWT. (this is VPW got the teaching about it). But i could be wrong as I have been before.

lol lol lol that is so funny i never thought of that he he. I have had a lot of remarks on that pic. Serously do you thinl i should really change it ?? seems it bothers some, or they may be just joking.

OMG that has became a money scam then as well, so what is worse the Cult or the mentors....sheezzz e weezie I do know that I found out not long ago the in MT 13 It is clear (to me) to not bash any Ministry whither it is a cult or not. And I felt bad at the time because I was in a anti Cult group OMG how stupid of me not to see it. there will be a lot of men who claims to be "counter cult" and wow if they would just look into MT 13:29 Mr Rick Ross should open up his bible and look, maybe he has. " But maybe I am wrong on this.

Well I really UPSET up when he took down them posts until here a day ago and said to myself: "well if he did not I would have never found you all and this site" so THANKS RICK ROSS, might have been God getting me over here to GSC lol lol. We got 3 reasons from them why they took them down, so there is a lie somewhere. "the lying tongue is but for a moment" lol lol Now to my response, WOW I am glad I never had to go through all that, I just kept reading the Word and searching for the truth, what a statement you all have there. I read on many sites where he did some bad things to people, do not know if it was true or not but I searched around the Internet. I am sure he has did good, we all make bad choices.