JeffSjo

Even though my impression of the Swaggart affair as heard in the media was such that I can not give him any respect for willingly admitting his faults until he's soooo far over the barrel that finally admitting the truth was nothing more than self-serving damage control....he managed to be far, far more truthful about these things than Wierwille or either of the next two Presidents of The Way International. And since the offshoot organizations that I have heard of have seemed lacking to be willingly forthcoming about what they participated in and/or lacking in understanding of just how twisted the training was that supposedly gave them the right to lead God's people was I don't think it is fair to say at all that the offshoots are without the abuse and sexual predation aspects of TWI. As an example of twisted logic IMO I'd offer that even though JL who was deeply involved in CES admitted to multiple affairs it was reported by one of the ladies here that at first he wouldn't admit to any until she "reminded" him of one. (Like he forgot or something....TTHHPPPP) And even after his admition he so regularly spoke of Wierwille fondly as his "Father in the Word" and such things that I can not but wonder what kind of man can consistently praise Wierwille, who so regularly preyed upon, decieved, and harmed others.

Shoot Heckler....You have it going on. In every way you show that you can at least stand your ground and not back down. Here at GSC we all have the right to decide for ourselves as to our opinion of your judgement in these things. It is one thing to "SAY" that TWI stands for God, truth, and the accuracy of God's Word (and similarly good sentiments you put in your own words) But it is a different thing all together to prove convincingly that top TWI leadership are not truly scummy and manipulative liars who are not worthy of your willingness to speak on behalf of them or their organization. If you showed a fraction of the up close and personal contact that many Greasespotters have shared from their own life it would tend to give your version of the truth more credibility. But most of us were dedicated Wayfers at one point as you seem to be now. And our sharings come from our experiences while a part of TWI for the most part. What specific experiences of your own do you offer us that back up your side of the story as it concerns The Way International? I will generally consider your version of things as a unfortunate result of TWI public relations and spin until you show or tell me why I should give your understanding of what TWI is any credibility. (edited for spelling and grammar)

Thank you Leafy. And I'm doing ok now, life goes on at least. :)

It takes some seasoning I believe to be able to tell whether or not one is being truly loving in regards to these things, especially when attempting to correct others soul searcher. But when you friend would say "that" in response to my question it does seem to me that some seasoning is needed. I remember myself how often I shot my mouth off at first concerning every teany little thing I thought was right, and looking back at my infancy in TWI it is clear to me now that most all of it only shows some shortcoming on my part in regards to understanding and/or love. But in general, when I truly think someone else will be the right one to judge, I usually just shut my mouth as a matter of prudency on my part. Especially in this case where Paul in Rom. 1&2 is going to such great lengths to show the believers how simply telling folks that some action according to scripture is wrong is not enough to release us of our responsibility to learn to handle things better ourselves. And from the kind of speaking against homosexuality that I believe is all too common in Christianity in general I believe that most of this illconsidered rebuke only pushes people farther and farther away from God. And if it truly is the GOODNESS of God that leads one to make changes in their life, then it may well be the hypocritical idjits who push people away from God...hhhmmm. Paul does show IMO that when a person says, the commandment shows you are wrong, that IT IS THE SAME AS THEM JUDGING, NOT GOD. (edited for spelling and clarity)

I know that many Christians quote scriptures to condemn homosexuals. It's too bad they don't think up an answer for when Paul asks,"Who are you to judge?" in Rom1 What Paul is more concerned about IMO is that the folks he is writing to don't condemn themselves by their condemnation of others. Could there be a more direct cognitave tie in with Gospel scriptures where the Lord says many things similar to "Judge not lest ye be judged."? Talk about missing the forest and seeing only one tree.......

And here I was just thinking about religious groups who are trained like dogs this last weekend too, I'm serious. I know a group of people (some of who are much younger) who know no other way to relate to authority figures other than responding to few sound bites that the leadership uses to very effectively lead them around by the nose. I think that for people who know no other way of dealing with authority figures than responding to certain techniques with all the thinking of Pavlovs trained dogs they are bound to be ignorantly led around by whoever knows how to obtain firstly, their affection, then secondly, their unthinking obedience. And most unfortunately to me, these trained individuals know no other way to percieve the events of the last few years other than following core beliefs that were deliberately planted in them by their trainers....(grumble, mumble, maybe even cuss a bit on my part.) In my case, it seems that they have virtually no conception of basic honesty issues, and they have a very hard time dealing with simply directness. And it seems that they cannot deal with people without automatically going along with the deliberate doubts thaty were skillfully implanted in them by their puppetmasters. They quickly are suckered into shutting out anyone who obviously goes against the grain of these things. And even if they don't realize it, they automatically discount anyone who questions those who they have given the power over their lives to be in effect, THEIR DOGTRAINERS. My perception is that anyone who habitually leads people about like a TWI of RRF leader is revealed by their commands and the skill whereby they effectively control peoples' perception of reality by the way they lead people about exactly like a dog trainer leads about his dogs. Fortunately for us; dogs do not have the ability to question whether or not they should allow people to lead them about in such a fashion, but we do. And even leaders who seem to satisfy our needs and make us feel content are not immune to anyone eventually learning to decide not to allow themselves to be led about in such a fashion. But in my experience it is difficult to learn to think again for one's self. But the harm that will eventually and inevitably be done to those being led about exactly as a dog-in-training is much higher! It is worth the fight to first recognize the signs and then change.

'nuff said for now!

It's too bad people are such good liars, it's too easy to believe somebody who claims to be taught by God. I happen to be, for instance, that the Apostle Paul really was taught by God as the scriptures say, and I happen to believe that the signs from God in the book of Acts in the Lord's name really happened. But ever since joining TWI in the early eighties up through my time in River Road Fellowship my life seems like a sometimes exceedingly slow education in how much people who claim to be "of God" can be liars. And even through very recently the skill and tools of the lying that went into my personal experience of "River Road Fellowship's" methods of leadership has me wondering just how skillful the leaders or puppetmasters really are, and how gullible and trained the followers are to recognize certain catch phrases and mannerisms as signals for authority regarding whover is doing the leading. I'm telling the truth, I think some of my old aquaintances would even believe a twenty year old kid that led as TWI leadership did, as long as he was charming and said authoritative things in a certain manner. But all such who learn from the TWI leadership rulebook or any close copy I believe are only destined to lead others into a ditch. I'm telling you, it can be sickening to consider just how nasty and dishonest the manipulators who successfully hold onto the hearts of many really are. And is discouraging to realize how gullible others still are. And it can be maddening to think too long about what is really, really going on with people who obviously are not telling you but a small part of the whole story. How much easier to simply get the fark away from absolutely everybody associated with these people in any way, form, shape, or manner and start from scratch with a few trusted family and/or other folks. I think such a one would be very fortunate indeed. (edited for clarity and spelling, a little added too.)

Dang Roy... I hate hearing you aren't doing well and ever since I heard of this thread but hadn't read it (within the last day) I've had you on my heart. Just please don't make any changes that actually don't help, I am completely in favor of change that makes a difference in a good way Roy.

Judgement and mercy....the weightier matters...... But after TWI there is one thing for sure, don't let judgement and mercy for any group be handled by a bunch of sick, twisted, sexual predators.

I like this one! People and relationships with them are a large part of life. If it wasn't for individuals and their own unique perspectives, yeah, shut the place down and simply archive the most relavent information! But it wasn't information alone that helped me here. More than that it was people sharing their stories. It's one thing to read that Wierwille was a sexual predator, but the impact is entirely different when I hear somebody share that he abused her while she was still in college and that he used her history of abuse to manipulate her into sex. Or when I here any others share their own personal experiences and the crapola they went through. Or when I here of others who were broken as I was, or had to learn to keep on living after their families were broken as mine was. The information is critical, but without the sharings, exchanges, the possibilities of friendships, and the possibility of actually helping other flesh and blood people I would have ditched this place long ago, even though I haven't been here nearly as long as many of you. (added in editing) Maybe circular arguments just need to be dealt with better. People can break the cycle...er...circle too, eh?

Really Ex cathedra? Seriously. How does this stuff work for you?

I find the specifics in regards to leadership mental illness to be fascinating as a consideration. So I don't mind at all to hear different possibilities Potato. But I think that in regards to anything that may allow people to judge one another as in the case of syptoms of specific mental illnesses it is very likely that a lot of folks will tend to missapply the knowledge to others when in truth they should understand themselves better first. But even a potential human nature issue such as that does not ultimately negate the potiential to better understand the abusive sickos we have been subjected to for quite some time. So, briefly said, I don't really mind your droning in this case. :P

Dear Copenhagen, I think it is great that it is clear for you when you started realizing that LCM was really underserving scum as opposed to all the honor and love we were told he deserved as Wierwille's chosen successor. Personally, I kind of Wonder how much Rosie and her defacto wife rejoice in the fact they put LCM out to pasture and now run the show in TWI. They kind of seem like some freakish, vainglorying, power hungry monsters beneath a thin veneer of biblical respectibility now. I think love and honor for these scum may very well be the number one cause of people being pulled back into the fold or a splinter group. And to me it seems thet every splinter has some version of dwelling on the best of TWI. I thought it only took a little leaven to leaven the whole lump? Dear Potato, So you realized that while you lived with the repurcussions of much abuse that the real liars and scum were running the TWI show. To me that sounds like a life changing realization. For whatever it's worth, I had realizations before I got kicked out and lived with much abuse too. I think if I had soundly realized that V.B. of RRF was the scum I know him to be now back then, I may have made it out with less pain. Daer Watered Garden, Was the son of yours that also had the sense to help get you out of TWI because he stood up to them too? I seem to remember you sharing something like that before, sorry if I have it wrong. Dear crystalclearblue, I bet everyone that spent time in TWI or one of the splinters has similar regrets to the ones you are sharing. I am glad you share them with us, thank you. TWI had to work very hard to keep people from processing stuff, and to me it seems that even the ones who knew much of the TWI evils didn't realize that Top leadership were often scum and their sins should be shouted from the housetops, and IMO, TWI deserved all the censure that we might have possibly been able to even hypothyetically given them. And as long as an old Wayfer does not realize that Wierwille really was a monster, they will never really have a hold on what really went down at "The Way International. (edited for spelling)

This one had me immediately remembering all the stuff I used to consider simply the MOG reacting to the intense stress of his job as a member of River Road Fellowship. I wish I knew then what I knew now, but at least now I can see some of it even though my education as to the specifics of these things is lacking. No, me either, just damage causing people....

It's a lot easier for me to deal with the prospect of helping someone else than it is to say "HELP ME!" I think it may work the same if that phrase is a bit interchangeable with "Meeting Needs." When Wierwille's hand picked bastard children used that phrase as their excuse to f___ virtually anybody would would lift their dress or take their pants off I think it is plenty understandable why the phrase "Meeting Needs" leaves a bad taste in many of our mouths. (added in editing) But back to Twinky's point...kind of... Is my post libelous Twinky? hehehe

In general Twinky, As somebody who has known the group in which Grand Daughter was abused by the minister and her husband I think it is fair to say that they both would never take up these issues out here in broad daylight for the possible benefit of others as Dawn has here. And the ministry normal was to very carefully only pick on folks who are totally in their control, like Victor did by letting Dave apologize to Victor for falling asleep during one of his sharings, and totally skipping over the fact that Victor spit on him when he saw Dave asleep. So Dave has actually learned from Victor how to carefully hide his abusive instincts until he can get away with those actions. For Dave I still pray that he can come to his senses somehow, but he has been under Victor's abusive thumb for a freakin long time when he should have been seeking competant help for his personal issues, so I am not sure that Dave can even still find his way out....sigh. But personally, if either of them came at Dawn like that I would prefer to call the police first, but then take a very keen personal intrest in how those two cowards dealt with Dawn until the police arrived. And while Dawn has had to deal with a lot of dang on her own, I kinda wish that I could be there to go face to face with them both for a bit. But Barnard would only allow such a situation to happen when he felt totally in control, he's a very intelligent bastard that way. And having me there would very likely make him face the possibility that he would no longer be in control. (edited for spelling)

The worst wiring problems in TWI IMO were with those close to Wierwille and tip-top leadership. If I'm not mistaken I think sociopaths can not be treated. And it makes a lot of sense to me now to think of TWI as the nuts running the nut house. But the nuts in charged not only gave people more issues with "wiring" than they may have had in the first place, but then these idiots made sure they built into us that incredibly stupid fear and loathing of proffessionals in the mental health field. I am certain that many folks can relate to what you have been going through Potato. I wish that I could personally contribute to this thread because I think that with a bit more participation and sharing it could be very helpful to many people. JEFF :)

Wow darlin..... You blow me away sometimes....:) Hopeful futures are much better, yes? :wub:

Hi Brainfixed, I think that it is likely to that a person has to learn to make their own social, ethical, and/or religious distinctions after years of being involved with a controlling and abusive religious group as TWI. I'm thinking that some of their own choices may not be good ones, especially at first. But at least without TWI leadership self-serving lying spin they have a real chance of learning from their own mistakes. I really, really enjoy the many levels of disagreement within the varied distinctions here at GSC for this reason.

-- I like to think Excathedra that I am highly in favor of people finding their own voice. But sometimes people are not what they portray themselves to be and I just try to take this into account when I am thinking about responding to new people. There was one poster a while back who unsoundly accused me of slander in the thread now relocated to the "Soap Opera" section in a thread that I started. And while she may have been in TWI for 30 years that alone is not enough to tell me anything about her intentions. One of the first thing this one did was express to me how unfairly she thought Paw had treated her at her previous GSC foray. And while I can not be sure of her motives, what my own gut warned me of was that I thought this gal was capable of trying to get me to go after Paw and/or GSC for her own reasons....sigh. Excathedra, Is that scenario possible? Well, IMO it is very likely to be considered possible by those of us who have seen the very worst of TWI or Spliter Group manipulation. And if this gal is the one who has got you so worked up about GSC and your place here, I think it very likely that she has already done what my gut was warning me she could do, except now she's manipulated you. I have been openly thankful for your sharing and my desire for people to find their voice. But IMO some TWI'ers already have a voice, and it happens to be dishonest and manipulative. JEFF I try to not say anything to hurt anybody, but sometimes what folks need to hear can be tough. I just hope that I am not as big an idiot as TWI leadership was in exploring how to do that kind of thing correctly.

You know what you get when you have a religious group without emotions? IMO you get a bunch of stiffs who get their fix of emotions when the big dogs come to town to fill them up with their sales spiel. IMO you get a bunch of stunted personalities who end up not knowing if it's ok to get mad at anything that leadership does not tell them to. IMO you get a bunch of people who enable and condone by their silence a system running rampant in the categories of sexual abuse and sexual hypocrisy. IMO you get a bunch of people who think that remaining calm will put the bad guys in their place, TTTHHHPPP! Some of those bad guys already have taken the ones they have chosen to abuse. (spelling, of course...sigh)