JeffSjo

When are these guys going to realize that all that secretive/ paranoid/ delusional/ and very unfortunate leadership hiding actually opens them up to control and manipulation instead of protecting them from the enemy as they were taught? Freakin Wierwille, he had thugs protecting his privilidge to minster, (uh, I mean abuse) many people on a regular basis. Some of the bretheren of these secretive turds were lost to alcoholism and depression, or worse. After they were cut loose from The Way International with no more than an armed escort and a canned pr statement such as, "He/she just wasn't tough enough" or a blatant lie such as, "He/she was possessed." But still they persist in the very leadership patterns that allowed them and their peers to be abused in the first place. Probably a hefty percentage of them still hoping to aquire a larger fiefdom in the twisted kingdom IMO. To me they just look like stupid goats being led to the slaughter because their captors tell them that they are lions.

Yep, gotta know when to iggynore the poopheads

I still have a hard time when I realize how messed up things were Bolshevick. Looking back at it it seems plain to me that simple contextual reading was all we needed to see that some of LCM's stuff was really, really bad. But wasn't it hard at first to get over our group induced opinion of top leadership and realize that not only were these people not living up to their press, but the things we were learning weren't even good lies in some cases. Yeah, I just had one of these "Duh!" moments myself.

Gee Roy, You've managed to be more thorough in regards to your statement of beliefs than some Way Ministry splinter groups without half trying....Good Job.

Now this seems to be solid and specific information, just the kind of discussion and specifics that I enjoy reading here at GSC. I do like hearing how things really were back then because the flow of information in River Road Fellowship concerning The Way International and the rest of the splinters was brutally curtailed to "the spiritual" among us. Which looking back at it seems to actually be those who were most in Barnard's control. I do feel it to be unfortunate that the specific information about the amount of cash flow was kept confidential, but that fact is no surprise to me. If nothing else it brings the issue of Barnard's claim of holding a $100,000 check in his hands to a point where absolutely nobody has already established a clear pattern of transparency. In other words, if JL said he didn't hand Victor Barnard the check how would we know who was telling the truth? Too convenient I guess. It galls me that it seems that one more thing that I took to be the truth is not only unlikely, but may even be just a previously unseen example of just how much of a liar Barnard was. So, let me ask it this way..... Is John Lynn's new ministry already exhibiting a "sucking sound" when we read his request for donations and supporters?

I think the thing that saddens me most about this is that I do not trust Victor Barnard or John Lynn to tell the entire truth of this matter any more. My lasting impression of Way Ministry leadership is such that I am no longer surprised if their own fellowship resembles a base example of first and foremost being only concerned about establishing a pecking order. Shortly to be followed by coming up with stories that show themselves in a good light where the TRUTH is amoung the first casualties. Yeah Dave, that was Barnard's story and it was a topic of discussion for quite some time amoung those of us in River Road Fellowship. And unfortunately as my thread in "My Story" confirms for me there is no shortage of folks in River Road Fellowship who choose to either lie about or remain silent concerning Victor Barnard's actions. I'm betting John Lynn in true Way International fashion recoils from the light of honesty like some kind of B-movie vampire creature too! However John Lynn really is, my impression is based on considerable personal observation of Way International leadership norms, IMO. Back in those Rush City days there was much more going on than you were privy too Dave. I've come to consider Pharis a false prophet for prophecying of Barnard's apostolic ministry. And Pharis had a big movement in mind and in his prophecies centering around a great work where several of us were pumped up to join in with in colorful terms such as "run to the battle" along with many other encouragements. I've come to consider the Momentus sessions we went through as their cash cow also. Considering all the dollars Momentus was bring in for them I'm still not at the place where I dismiss Barnard's claims of holding a $100,000 in his hands outright. But then again I've come to recognize Barnard as lieing only when his lips are moving. :o Either way, to try to bring this back on track.... I give no credibility to John Lynn in his track record of picking out legitimately helpful ministries, friends, or his handling of ministry money. He could change my opinion I suppose, but transparancy, humility, and honesty aren't exactly his long suits IMO.

Even Paul had the sense to admit something along the lines of that if Christ wasn't raised from the dead that he was to be a most pitiable man in terms of suffering for a worthless cause, right? (1 Co 15) Now if Paul lived in an RV even while parked a few yards from his and his wife's bed and had a steady flow of vulnerable women brought to him; or ruthlessly crushed many whose only sin was not giving the supposed MOG all the glory that would have been a big clue that Paul wasn't all that he made himself out to be. I am glad that Paul sized up his situation honestly, IMO. And in Paul's case there has never been any credible accusers, let alone a Way Ministry abundance of victims, lawyers, and lawsuit cover-ups. And hypothetically speaking I can not imagine the histories of Paul's immense good will and personal sacrifice in the face of tremendous odds to have been fabricated since at the time Christianity had zero weight in terms of official political power. Heck when Christianity had political power all the stories of it's abuses has survived the centuries when virtually all records in Western Europe were controlled by the church.

I didn't realize The Greasespot Cafe had slipped down so far as 2nd page on a search for The Way International otherwise I would have typed The Way International more often. I could only wish that a search of River Road Fellowship and/or Victor Barnard was even 2nd page as TWI but The Way International certainly had more direct victims than River Road Fellowship has up to date. But just in case it would do any good I'm happy to type both The Way International and River Road Fellowship.

JL came to Rush City, Mn. to visit with Victor Barnard back before V. Barnard moved River Road Fellowship to Finlayson, Mn. Acording to Barnard, JL offered him a check for $100,000 and told him to build a new church with the money. Barnard reportedly turned this money down. On one hand, I can't credit myself with too much sense as I was just getting more and more involved with Barnard at the time in a situation where my clear conscience cost me my wife, child, and most everything concrete in my life that I worked toward for years. But on the other hand, looking back on it I can't credit JL with too much good sense as he reportedly gave Victor Barnard a $100,000 check to build a church with. If Barnard had built a church building in Rush City, Mn. it is all too easy to imagine how many more victims Barnard might have had. And even though JL did a bit in order to expose Wierwille's true personal habits I am tremendously unsatisfied with his overall response as concerning Way Ministry victims. (added in editing) Since Barnard turned down JL's offer of $100,000 I can't help but wonder what other toilets he flushed "God's" money down afterwards.

I'm glad you like it in even though you quoted me during my last editing session. :)

Hi Tzaia, I'm glad you've shared so much here on this thread and "Thus Saith Paul" too, it's given me some things to think about for the last couple of days for sure. It sounds like your opinions of JL have come from up close observation and I like that. One of the reasons I like these forums is BECAUSE OF OUR MANY DIFFERENCES. It gives me a chance to either come up with a good answer in the face of disagreement or a chance to tweak or even trash some of the things I may be mistaken about. It doesn't sound like JL is willing to do that in a vigorously individualistic environment like GSC and I believe that is JL's loss. As a few considerations of my own about TWI leadership patterns going back to VPW.... #1 TWI leadership understand that as long as they sound convinced that some people will follow them. #2 TWI leadership know full well how to make vigorous debate seem like persecution for the sake of their followers. #3 Anybody who nicknames himself "JALVIS" as JL has been reported here to do is probably pretty good at point #'s 1 & 2. #4 If I'm right about these things and JL it is most likely that he would turn viscioussss as soon as he deals with anybody whose private considerations runs counter to the schtick that he uses to fatten his own belly. And by fatten his own belly I include something like stroking his ego. If he visciously puts down those who burst his bubbles it would also be indicative to me of someone who lives for appearances without enough appreciation for substantive truth. (I added a bit for clarification.)

I am glad you had your radar up Tzaia. That being said it must have been a dificult thing to go through, TWI and all while having been creeped out by Wierwille himself. __________________________________________ As far as the victim issue goes.... Paul's victims were before his conversion experience when he victimized fledgling Christianity under the cover of status, laudable background, and the fruit of personal ambition. After his conversion he willingly thanked God if his own life was given up upon the altar in service to God for the benefit of Christianity. All the while of his ministry he faced persecution from his former fellows and in spite of their best efforts found no reason to condemn him as a criminal for cause despite many persistent attempts. The 1st century church then persisted and prospered despite nefarious persecution from official sources despite being widely recognized by even their adversaries as having done no evil things worthy of judgement. Wiewille claimed to have a calling that was miraculous in it's origin, yet in private remained a wicked and abusive horndog to the end. He built a ministry where even to this day the minimogs herd their followers and protect them from the other Wierwillian minimogs by slander, insults, and a TWI learned skill at manipulation that I have trouble finding words to describe but many GSCers seem to be able to sniff out by virtue of having been crushed to various extents by the TWI system. TWI seems more like pre-conversion Paul to me than Paul the Apostle, despite it's own press.

Well it seems that after PFAL and after some TWI style socialization that most everybody in TWI at the time had an unhealthy reverence for Wierwille, and after him there was Martindale, Geer, Rosie, JAL and who knows how many more mini-mog. Looking back it seems obvious that Wierwille did not deserve this reverence, especially because him and TWI so effectively hid the type of man he was behind closed doors. You may call that into question your reaction to his behind doors behavior for yourself Tzaia, but his behavior is significant to me. And as to your attempt to qualify your opinion of my reaction whether physical, emotional, or spiritual it is still as I said before a relatively inconsequential concern to me. This part about Wierwille creeping you out in person would definitely be something I'd be interesting in hearing Tzaia. How long were you a wayfer or a participant in TWI and/or it's splinter groups after being creeped out by the MOG? What exactly if anything held you captive to such an unhealthy and disfunctional group after being creeped out by the top dog? I guess I'm wondering because most everything I've heard about Wierwille was second hand. But after my time in RRF and much first hand exposure to a very similar disfunctional and cruel religious system as in TWI it seems to me that I understood many things better about Wierwille after seeing someone up close who called himself "a true son of Wierwille." As my experience came with considerable personal loss I feel perfectly free to tell you that the TWI mogs and minimogs are worth a full and fully vetted emotional reaction. Victims really don't give a fig what some intellectually insulated individual thinks about their emotions as pertaining to decades of misplaced reverence, lost time, lost families, suicides of friends or relatives, or any other of the personal little hells that TWI and the splinters may have put us through IMO. I have noted even here from time to time an attempt to insulate TWI and it's progeny from the just emotional reaction of it's victims. Sometimes it seems these attempts may be the result of sincere good intentions, but others it seemed to be the attempts of TWI apologists to silence the victims. Either way I am not accepting any encouragement to be quite or minimize my emotional reactions to TWI travesties. So as pertaining Paul, does anyone ever, throughout history record that he had victims aplenty as VPW had and has? Does all Paul's bad press for his statements because they are misconstrued? Personally, I vote for good Pauline statements and a multitude of bad private interpretations whether from honest mistakes or outright Wierwillian style depravity.

That was GRRRrrreat. Grandson by any chance Cheranne?

It seems to me that according to Bolshe's initial post that if a regular part of TWI fellowship was looking down on everybody else that eventually we'd become incompetant yet oddly self-cogradulatory clowns...hhhmmm. Especially in cases requiring real counseling skills to produce good results. And if we as Wayfers then refused to come down off of our high horses would we not then become defensive and somewhat paranoid clowns w/out any real adequate skills as pertaining to counseling and helping people. Heck, and it seems to me that this scenario only applies to those who are unwittingly tripped up by being puffed up but still had good intentions. How sad the end IMO for those who instead of good intentions have willingly clung to the abuse and have hid it too?

Wierwille's doctrine in his own words was that people should treat his suggestions as commandments. So it is no surprise for me that Wayfers; but others too I suppose; had a hard time handling the things Paul spoke of permission and not commandment. When I hear Paul and understand him too as best I can, I'm looking for commandments. But when I see him write of permission I know I have the liberty to think and decide for myself, period. But it wouldn't surprise to end up seeing merit in what Paul said if I decided on another course, which in these cases is my right IMO. One thing I remember doing is practically canonizing Wierwille's oneliners as a Wayfer. Now that I know Wierwille's private issues better it kind of galls me (almost to the point of nausea sometimes) to think I considered his oneliners with such reverence. What I'm considering now is this question.... How likely is it that I can treat Paul's statements with as little thorough consideration as I did Wierwille's? Right now I'm thinking that Paul's statements may be misconstrued as easily as anyone's. But personally, I'm still thankful to be considering Paul's words with reverence and I'm thankful also to know that Wierwille and his words are not to be held in high esteem, except in the rare cases where they actually may be in harmony with the original intent of the scriptures. Considering how poisonous TWI's leaven was it seems no easy task to seperate the good from the bad. IMO it might be safer to start from scratch rather than lionize any accidental good that came from the "leavened lump" of TWI. But certainly to each his/her own according to conscience.

Sorry, this will be brief. I am about to be gone for most of the entire weekend without any real time in order to respond to anywhere this one might go. So it is with a little regret that any further response to this post may of necessity lack for the time being. That is a very nice way of saying that your attempt to better my behavior is a waste of your time Tzaia, but the content of that sentiment seems a little off to me. I'm still not sure what behavior you are referring to, so my chances of bettering myself right now is 0%. Heck, I had an entire splinter group w/ my ex-wife included who condemned me without giving me a chance to answer their accusations. Rest assured Tzaia, compared to that experience your "unknown to me" complaint is relatively inconsequential. Although I enjoy your outspoken and somewhat brusque manner it has become obvious that you and I have some differences Tzaia. I would be happy to openly explore these too. But from my point of view any differences we might have and our possible discussion of these is only limited by your willingness to open up. It might be that one or both of us will need to reevaluate something. But since the tenor of your post is that I am the only one needing a paradigm shift it seems unlikely that you would be willing to consider your own perspective as openly as I am willing to examine my own. _____________________________ SORRY EVERYBODY, I HAVE NO IDEA HOW OR TIME TO TRY TO BRING THIS ONE BACK ON TRACK. Bye for now. This might be enough Waysider, to bring it back. let me bring this one to the end before I go.

well, this choir is with you darlin.

I can see we are both worked up today. I don't mind it at all Shellon. :~) But at least your daughters see through this stuff. And I'm guessing because of our past it might very well be a bigger problem to us than to them. But then they are our wounds more than their's IMO.

I don't mind Erkjohn's comments at all because I consider the caution to be a good one and one that I needed to hear even though I don't believe it applied in this instance. And I certainly feel no need for him to apologize to me or anyone else. But if you have any issues you want to deal with other than simply pointing out you don't see it my way, try bringing up a thread to deal with our differences straight up Tzai, if you are willing to do something possibly productive and worthwhile that may be good for all who read it.

It is the application of the doctrine of believing that is responsible in a lot of ways for much of the amoral and reprehensible behavior of some of these folks. Why, you could have believed god and fixed it! What a load of crap! Trying to seperate children from their parents and parents from their children in God's name....vile, vile behavior that is much more befitting nazi Germany's social programs, or the late soviet empire's indoctrination attempts in order to wipe out religion from their country! And the fact that it is done in God's name makes it even more twisted, vile, and reprehensible IMO. Far from healthy human interaction which IMO only leaves the fruit in their life to represent a wasteland as pertaining to love and compassion. I can almost hear the winds blowing over the desert wasteland devoid of fruitfulness while the insane ones congradulate themselves not recognizing the terrible cost of their false ways. Raising kids without natural affection, turning from families who love them and embracing an unatural affection, where the Father in the Word (so-called) drugs and abuses his own daughters and crushes his own sons under his spiritual authority. Leaving the children looking under rocks, seeking an enemy falsely so-called who only desires to love her own children. Unable to cope with the truth that it is their own vile ways that ruin families, break hearts, abuses the vulnerable, and marginalizes each and every upright soul who seeks to help them. Bring it on!

Makes me think that some child like faith on my part would be a good thing for me right now!