JeffSjo

I like the idea of this conversation moving into real world examples and I think some of the latest posts have cleared up my working definition of "eisegesis." However, if my working definition of the term comes up short, for me this is relatively inconsequential compared to the events and the consequences I am describing. Nevertheless, I'd prefer to be using the word eisegesis correctly and would appreciate any necessary correction. Eisegesis worked against me in River Road Fellowship under the sway of one man, Victor Barnard. Under his watch anyone could be terrorized any time they showed signs of thinking for themselves. And ANY negative biblical character or storyline that could be used to put people down was used, and regularly so IMO. As I shared about somewhere in "my story" he likened me to Nabal, who died, and then his wife went to David in the biblical storyline. In a practical sense having an intellectual and somewhat sterile discussion concerning eisegesis doesn't do justice in and of itself to the amount of damage and control a free wheeling sociopath can do to somebody's life by controlling people's perception of the truth through eisegesis. It seems true that everytime The Way International called somebody "possessed" they in effect did the same thing, and many here can attest to the damage it can cause.

Uuuuhhh.......yeah.....me too :unsure:

Once again Roy...you leave me speechless. Or at least incapable of reading out loud.

It's a fake trailer, but maybe funny if you like Weird Al. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/23/the-weird-al-yankovic-sto_n_509590.html?ref=fb&src=sp#sb

Michael Palin reporting on that border....for the BBC. Ironic?

Ok, so when I was in River Road Fellowship I was likened to Nabal and Ahab. I was called a false prophet. I was referrred to as anti-christ, both before I left and referring to what I'd do after they kicked me out. That would be examples of Barnard's thugs "exegesis" or "eisegesis", or something else? Either way, when it was in my face a little but behind my back a lot, it was very hurtful. I'll have to check on this later.......

So no matter what is going on in any biblocentric organization biblical research is a potential tool that may reach any given individual, but organizational setup and safeguards are more effective in eliminating abuse? IMO The Way Inernationals particular brand of insanity had the abusive insanity with no checks and balances destroyed the effectiveness of the biblical studies. (Schoenheidt's work on adultery being IMO an obvious example) And "exegesis" and "eisegesis" are the two things being discussed here. Heck, Wierwille's insanity had leadership excusing nasty, nasty behavior and scouring the bible to actually justify their sick, twisted behavior. Some were deluded into thinking he was MINISTERING to those young ladies. Others just turned a blind eye even while their consciences were screaming at them. Either way all organizational biblical integrity was destroyed a long, long time ago because it didn't really seem to exist in Wierwille's heart IMO. But we are still individuals who may or may not have biblical integrity. I have no idea how to get this thread back on track now...sorry. :blush: (The 3rd paragraph I added in editng.)

Reading "out from" the scriptures and reading "into" the scriptures seem innevitable to me. When someone like Wierwille preaches "God means what He Says and says what He means" it mostly served to cause us to falsly estimate our doctrines as solid and genuine IMO. I believe demoninational Christianity is and has been subject to the same delusion at times and that any casual reading of current or ancient church history will give ample opportunities to see this. And most people will pick out the errors they see based on the current color of their theological glasses and be partly correct too. But in modern times Sociopathic bastards like Wierwille seem to me to present the most damaging of all threats. Maybe because to me the raw influence they excersize over their victims seem to be the MOST DAMAGING long term effects. But demoninational Christianity has it's share of active preachers and teachers who partake in all kinds of sick and perverse activities with their subordinates too. But in general they do not allow people to fall down at their feet like The Way Ministry did I guess, and the influence they have on their organizations don't seem to be as all encompassing. But getting back to the point, it seems like understanding the basics of "exegesis" and "eisegesis" may and should have been able to help some see that Wierwille wasn't all he was cracked up to be. But IMO it is a pretty small tool when compared to all the control techniques that The Way International used to control it's victims. And maybe hindsight is 20-20 too.

When I first started to get involved in The Way International I was hooked in part because of doctrinal points that nobody else "seemed" to be able to deal with. The friendship I found at the twig level was better than anything else I had going at the time. The religious critics of the Way Ministry either seemed to be unreasonable or illogical to me. Of course the fact that I swallowed Way propoganda hook, line, and sinker about Wierwille being a man of God didn't help me see any legitimate criticism of him I suppose. The fact that The Way International did such a good job of effectively isolating and silencing it's victims meant I never heard credible and legitimate testimony of Way Leadership's abusive and hidden agendas. Heck.....if the information you've posted here Nyunknown actually helps anybody avoid the same type of pitfall I fell into, but pertaining to The Church (so-called) of Scientology that is WONDERFUL! But I'm thinking that anybody who seeks to help any potential cult victim will certainly need to be patient but firm, loving, supportive.... all the good stuff. In my early days of involvement fearful and kneejerk type reactions only served to push me farther into The Way International.

Other than JL and Martindale how many have publically fessed up to any "indiscretions?"

Pakistan India Border Closing Ceremony Do you remember Monty Python? If so do you remember the Ministry of Silly Walks? Here it is in all it's silliness but this time it is serious I hope foreign visitors to the Tomb of the Unknowns don't laugh (at the Guardsmen) as much as I did at this brief film. This ceremony is performed every night. And don't forget that the Pakistan India border could easily become the next (our) border war! This is worth your time to watch. Well, we know there is no love lost between the two countries. I'm surprised they ever open the border. India-Pakistan Border NIGHTLY Closing Ceremony. Both countries have nukes, and both countries have come close to war a number of times. If they do, it'll be a different ballgame for the ENTIRE region. The Wagah border is the only road linking India and Pakistan . And every night, the border is closed with a most unusual ceremony. Only 156 seconds long, it is one of the strangest things I've ever seen.

Great poll Ham! I would freely consider giving a little respect to the honest ones among Way Ministry leadership. But for those who hide the truth..... Your day is coming!, better for you to face up to what you did now. (Feel free to quote me)

Thanks for those links nyunknown! As far as Sen. Hiram Monserrate goes, as far as I'm concerned cutting his girlfriends face with glass makes him one of many sick, nasty bastards on the face of the planet. But in spite of the urgent and pressing desire to delivery him a first-class beat down I have to remember some things I've learned in life. #1 I like to decide the Lord will repay, not me. #2 Be careful, that #$&%* actually cut his girlfriend's face with jagged glass and had his lawyers negotiate a midemeanor plea. He's f'in powerful and dangerous! IMO, comparing The Way International to Scientology puts The Way international in "THE BUSH LEAGUES" of abusive religious style organizations. One more thing...."ANONYMOUS ROCKS"

Hi Shellon and Doojable, Yeah, that consistently irratating "-1" on Shellon's posts has been bugging me for a while too. I've said that it's the kind of thing where this web format gives us the right to do, but when that first became possible here at GSC I said right away that what I didn't like about the "vote" system because it seemed all to likely to me that it would be used in a petty or counterproductive fashion. Except for the irratating -1's on Shellons post I think folks have been not too petty or annoying though. I am glad "it is well" for you right now Shellon.

I saw that episode of Boston Legal and it is most everything that I know about Scientology. Well I had heard about Hubbard once boasting he could make up a religion. <_< And the Vader clip.... :o dick, dick, dickety dick....haaaaaaahahahahahaha (added in editing) I don't know about Vader joining GSC nyunknown....we already have several folks who think themselves to be good at light sabers.

I will check it out then :) Thank you!

Thank you for the offer nyunknown, I'm not sure I could do much with it. But it is possible I might share it at a Facebook site where this type of stuff is discussed that I frequent. Send it if you wish, I might repost it though FYI.

I knew Dave, he was a very kind and gentle man in his real life, it was no pose. (added in editing) TTHHHHHPPPP to TWI! "We'll take your Godly money but condemn your devilish life." They fooled many, but couldn't reason their way out of a wet paper bag apparently.

I think it awesome that this senator has had enough and is trying to launch a criminal investigation into the Church of Scientology's activities because there have been reputable reports of abuse on a level comparable with Wierwille's reported abuses IMO. This news report has me thinking about legal action against The Way International. But like Australia IMO, in the U.S. there would be many, many people who reject official action on the basis of a high respect for religious liberty. On the one hand, I know there are people who hate organized religion and use such activities as an investigation to further their own agenda. On the other hand there are also many abusive religious organizations that would reject official investigations under the false front of "attacks against religious liberties" because they themselves would not want their abusive, manipulative, and possibly criminal actions exposed. In the U.S there would doubtlessly be many people for and against official inquiries of cult activity, for both the "right" reasons and the "wrong" reasons on both sides I suppose. Some would be against inquiries of alleged Way Ministry criminalty because that's how The Way International programmed them to feel. I feel sometimes that GSC has the potiential to wake 'em up and realise that it isn't religious liberty The Way International wants to protect, but instead they wnat to protect themselves from the consequences their actions truly deserve. That is how GSC has caused me to feel. As far as official inquiries of cult activities go, if it is possible to establish something like that anywhere in the west such movements would need to be able to weather a ton of political heat. And IMO they only have a chance of being worthwhile if they are being run by honest folks who feel very, very highly of religious liberty, also feel like criminals deserve to be punished, and hate the hypocrisy of criminals hiding behind their public stance of "religious liberty."

Hi Brainy, I thought about responding right away but don't feel like I had much of anything to toot my own horn about right now. But I'm glad you did because IMO what you do is awesome on a very real and basic level to me and I think you are right, it's just the kind of thing that The Way International would end up putting you down for in order to maintain their dominance. But they won't do it now, not here Brainy, not today!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktA3wxPCVXQ

I remember hearing a story about a female singer who left the biz because after taking PFAL she concluded that her professional life was nasty and devilish. It seems logical to me to this day that she probably did turn away from some nasty stuff, there is no shortage of successful and nasty people, right? The story went that in order to honor Wierwille she gave him a one-time preformance of her singing in order to mark her turning away from her supposedly nasty life. Does anybody know if this type of event was common, rare, or myth? It's a real stretch for me to understand that things like this actually happened,knowing now how sick and perverse Wierwille really was. He seemed to excell in grooming women for his lust and men for his dominance. ______________________________ I think that there is huge segments of modern Christianity that pulls successful folks in and uses their success as a selling point for their doctrines. IMO those churches have a all to common manner of ignoring or even chastizing the poor for their plight. In The Way International's case it seems especially evident that good looking yet pliable people are what they use to sell themselves to others still.

TWO-CENTS ALERT I'm very glad that all you folks with more current Way Ministry experience than mine feel free to share!

As concerning the inspiration and inerrancy of the scriptures I am a believer in both concepts. I really enjoy reading historical information that sheds light on how the ancients (to us anyway) pulled it off. And along those lines this thread has given many good considerations. But lately I've been thinking about all the folks who preach both the inspiration and inerrancy of the scriptures. As concerning Wierwille and The Way International it seems clear to me that for all the preaching about the scriptural truth, that The Way International has proven itself to be worthy of terrible judgment according to the very scriptures that they supposedly preach. But moving beyond that arguable consideration of mine I think I often focus on the folks who preach a fundamentalist view of scriptures that I hold. Oftentimes folks who preach even the very same things that I hold as beliefs seem like blowhards to me. And while that impression of mine is harsh it is oftentimes that I end up thinking that my initial gut reaction to a preacher seemed justified. Maybe it's because of a certain immaturity on the part of the preacher, as if what they were unwittingly promoting by their views concerning the inerrancy of the scriptures was in fact the inerrancy of THEIR VIEWS as concerning God, religion, life, and the scriptures. And if that proves to be the case in my view, then such immaturity would translate according to my normal temperment as being a blowhard. But I usually deal with the situation by seeing how they react to something I think of as a worthy consideration first, to see what the chances of us having a decent and profitable conversation are. Psalm 119 is a huge example of a healthy view of the scripture's worth IMO. But the reputed author of that Psalm; David I believe; had no easy life. He had great victories and stunning obstacles and enemies. He was at times no better than a wandering vagrant and at other times he ruled Israel and was held in esteem as "The Lamp of Israel." And I believe BECAUSE of the things he learned in his struggles he could honestly end up in complete awe of the God of Abraham and His Ways and was convinced of the inevitability of His Counsel eventually coming to pass, and write Psalm 119. And absolutely none of us has had to suffer through anything as intense as a crucifiction in order to see God's promises come to pass. So compared to either of them IMO I have nothing to boast about. But I admit that if as my life is winding down I can still hold the scriptures in high esteem as the writer of Psalm 119 did I will be happy for it.