JeffSjo

Hmmmph! Isolate the prey AND teach em' the bible. What a wicked racket!

The only thing I know for sure is that I don't know why. :( Thank you Cman, but I'm going to try posting a link...something I recently learned to do via copy and paste. :)

My marraige was broke up in just such a fashion. This thread really hits home for me. The day they moved my wife and my son out of my house behind my back the thug in charge of my splinter group's property told me that I wasn't welcome back to fellowship until "this shameful situaion is resolved." Meaning, I had to go to them and beg to get my family back. This particular thug reportedly moved back to Pennsyvania after learning of Barnard's extracirricular activity with the women and I was told he wanted to kill him. At least the bastard who moved my wife out got a smaaaalll taste of the crap he helped put me through for several years in succession. (I edited the post to remove a typo.)

I wish I understood more about computers and the internet. Two times over the last two days I've googled "Jeff Sjolander" and not a single GSC thing came up on the list. This forces me to change my facebook profile because I tell folks who see my facebook page to just google my name. Even though sometimes computers are completely quirky with this type of stuff I can not help but wonder what is really going on. But after consideration it seems unlikely that anyone at google would deliberately interfere with the normal results of a google search. I am completely unqualified to know the difference between deliberate interference and network quirkiness.

thanks Bulwinkl, It worked just now for me on the first time too in quite a while. Maybe all I have to do to fix an annoying issue with Google is b!tch about it here? NO WAIT, IT'S A SIGN!!!

Dear Roberterasmus, Good points too me I believe. From my perspective it is impossible to completely iron out everything about Wierwille's character. I believe the Lord will judge him and the rest of us according to the secret and hidden things about our hearts. New International Version (©1984) 1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God. But in the mean time it is an interesting consideration to wonder something like, "Gee...was Wierwille a corrupt man who built a ministry that allowed him to flourish relatively well hidden or did the ministry he build and the power he wielded corrupt him?" Earlier today I was considering that the verses I know about judgment focus on our words and our actions, but also God's revealing of the heart's intent. __________________ Dear Steve, Just for consideration, I agree that if Wierwille had to rationalize his behavior to himself that would tend to speak against him being a full blown sociopath. Like you, I am not fully versed in the definitions or the other possibilities. But I think that if Wierwille used a particular form of self depreciating comment to jerk us around to the idea he had some form of conscience left in him that such actions would be a lock for a full blown sociopath. In other words, perhaps he wasn't rationalizing to himself at all, but simply using the appearance to set the hook deeper in his followers. And his alcoholism didn't have anything to do with his tortured self-doubts IMO. His drinking probably started as something he liked how it felt but blossomed into alcoholism for reasons unrelated to his conscience. And it seems sound that teaching that fear is bad can be a full blown deception if the fear is natural as in something like, "Get out of the way of that truck." but would that not also mean that PFAL from it's very inception by talking us out of whatever warnings we would have been better off to pay attention to was also building self-deception or even delusion into what for many people was the first and foremost introduction to The Way international? So would not the high minded arrogance then also be a full blown delusion and an exacerbation of ANY mental instability or mental disorders involving control and/or manipulation? And wouldn't the leaders most skilled at control/manipulation think they are the cream rising to the top but in fact be something that would resemble a Baby Ruth bar floating to the top of a swimming pool? <_< HHHhhmmmm.

I've set up my computer/internet stuff up so that anybody that google's "Jeff Sjolander" will get to my profile here at GSC. For quite a while I have had to do two consecutive search in order to get here. The first time I do a search almost every time I see a notification that the link is missing. FYI a while back somebody was deliberately redirecting the link until I told the company that was redirecting it that I did not like it. This time I'm not sure what is going on or what I can do about it.

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall; Humpty Dumpty had a great fall. All the King's horses And all the King's men Couldn't put Humpty together again! ?

I copied this from your first post Steve: One of the most glaring examples, in my opinion, of Wierwille preaching exegesis while at the same time practicing and teaching eisegesis occurred in PFAL when Wierwille did the section on "we have to get 'to whom addressed' correct." Wierwille chose Romans 9-11 to illustrate how important it is to realize who a section of scripture is addressed to, teaching that Romans 9:1 through 11:12 is addressed, not to Christians, but to Jews, and that Romans 11:13 through 11:36 is addressed, again, not to Christians, but to Gentiles. Closely reading Romans 9:1-11:12 demonstrates that the passage is NOT addressed TO the Jews. It is ABOUT the Jews, but NOT addressed TO them. Likewise, carefully reading all of Romans 11:13-36 shows that the "you Gentiles" of Romans 11:13 are NOT unregenerate Gentiles, but rather the Christians in Rome who had come to Christ from Gentile backgrounds. Why would Wierwille preach so adamantly the importance of getting "to whom addressed" correct, and at the same time, so totally screw up the passage he used as an example? The implications are enormous, both for the license he allowed himself to sin, and all the rest of his theology _________________________________________ Short Answer: Because Wierwille, while being a convincing communicator of fatherly and grandfatherly concern for people and well versed in homiletics was at heart an abusive and controlling sociopath!? For me, I get more mileage out of asking why I didn't see this earlier.

Sooooo, is it just me or are the odds of any conversation with Mrt ending up worthwhile zero already or just heading there very quickly? So Mrt, do you have an answer for any questions that I asked you earlier in post #35? It's kind of eerie for me to hear you believing some of the same lies I used to. _________________________________ POST#35 Hi Mrt, I don't know anything about you, but that's ok. the anonymity available here at GSC serves many people well. If you think some of us are persecuting John Lynn do you also think you are persecuting all the rest of Christendom too? Because from my perspective it is your vitriol that is lacking credibility. If I were you I'd pay attention to who is it that has led you into your virtually blanket condemnation of Christianity and consider also how that this attitude effectively isolates you from almost everybody. Is your theological isolation the product of being deliberately isolated by your teachers or is is that your brand of Christianity is soooo vastly superior to all others that you can afford to cop an attitude that even Jesus Christ himself didn't take part in? Or does He show grace and mercy only to your group? Signs and miracles are nice, but for me they don't automatically bring credibility. But whether genuine or fake, I do dramatically increase the intensity with which I analyze any group. (I added a bit for the sake of clarification.) _______________________________ (ADDED IN EDITING) In case it helps here is a definition of "vitriol" from an online dictionary: 2. Bitterly abusive feeling or expression. and for whatever it's worth to you, when formerly abused wayfers or STFIers have trouble coming to terms with the vitriol at the heart of their former leaders THEY ARE CREDIBLE FEELINGS IMO. But what has denominational Christianity ever done too you? FYI...you are free to ignore this last question too. :B)

HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA My favorite line..."You'll either go mad from the revelation or be on your knees begging for the dark age." To bad they weren't advanced class grads, since I'm not one either maybe I just wasn't taught to see the devil spirits jumping off the pages.

Hi Mrt, I don't know anything about you, but that's ok. the anonymity available here at GSC serves many people well. If you think some of us are persecuting John Lynn do you also think you are persecuting all the rest of Christendom too? Because from my perspective it is your vitriol that is lacking credibility. If I were you I'd pay attention to who is it that has led you into your virtually blanket condemnation of Christianity and consider also how that this attitude effectively isolates you from almost everybody. Is your theological isolation the product of being deliberately isolated by your teachers or is is that your brand of Christianity is soooo vastly superior to all others that you can afford to cop an attitude that even Jesus Christ himself didn't take part in? Or does He show grace and mercy only to your group? Signs and miracles are nice, but for me they don't automatically bring credibility. But whether genuine or fake, I do dramatically increase the intensity with which I analyse any group. (I added a bit for the sake of clarification.)

I'm just glad we can evaluate this stuff for ourselves Robert. I think one of the precious things here is that we can form our own opinions and think for ourselves. In my experience group think runs 180% counter to this and in most cases the ones with the most influence somehow manage to sell themselves as promoting liberty. Whether extreemly bad group think as in The Way International IMO, or in a church with much less damage being done the group think thing can be annoying but perhaps necessary to some extent w/in any group. As to the scriptures, sure, maybe another thread.... this is not a bad place to give one a try after all.

I never saw the movie, but I did read the book "Battlefield Earth." I had no idea at the time how the sci-fi themes in the book dovetailed with Scientology. And as to the story of how Hubbard's words screwed up an otherwise good movie....wellll....let me say that it might has well been Way Ministry BOT who were controlling genuinely talented individuals for all the good their interference did. I will be willing to conceed to the opinion that "Battlefield Earth" may be the worst movie of the decade. For whatever it's worth I also think that "Athlete's of the Spirit" may well be the worst musical ever....hhhhmmmmm.

Hi Robert, I've talked to some Catholics who are far away from this knee-jerk reaction right here at GSC even. The little bit of Augustine that I have read seems excessive in terms of allegory for my taste, and several educated Catholics I have talked with seem more than willing to share that they think so too, except that IMO they say so after reading much more of his writings than I have. The thing that is soo impressive about some of these people and their contemporaries to me is that their writings were HUGE in terms of the long-term impact they have had on world history. They too have a historical context that we can not ignore IMO. (edited to effect an improvement in my grammar and spelling.)

I get it skyrider and I can recognize those things now just THINKING and REMEMBERING the PFAL class. It has caused me to consider that long, long before I was a Wayfer, Wierwille already had the abuse living in his heart and ministry. Perhaps the thing that made it more or less successful for such a long time was the fact that he was especially adept at "grooming" his victims/helpers. :(

When I read this Robert I thought, "Yep, that's what I did!" I can respect your desire to move the discussion away from Wierwille and his "Smarmy results" and will do my best. But if for only good intentions I feel that I need to do so again I hope you will bear with me. Here is some of the reasons that I do so... #1 This place is full of ex-wayfers who still may even say that they are still recovering from Waybrain and I don't mind sharing my impression of The Way International's smarmy results. Just in case it proves to be helpful. #2 Sometimes I'm just looking out for people getting caught up in the same old stuff, but then they say something that makes it plain that I needn't be sooo concerned. :) At the very least I hope misplaced concern is the worst thing I need to deal with. #3 I'm still in the process of putting the pieces together for myself in terms of understanding how or why The Way International had it's place in terms of leading me to where my life is now, and of course that includes Wierwille in the picture. :eusa_clap: Hi Steve, I hope that between you, your sibling(s?), and your mom things work out ok. The things about the conditioning of the heart you speak of brought up some considerations for me. They may or may not be "meaty" per say depending on the individual I suppose, but I think I have seen newer believers and the deceived choking on these verses a time or two, so I will bring them up with care......and from the "King James." ______________________ HEBREWS ch.6 4For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. 7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned. _________________________ HEBREWS ch.10 26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31[it is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. ______________________ Now as these things apply to anybody who thinks they are serving God or not will probably be true in different gegrees to different individuals IMO. But for those who learned and believed on Christ but then let somebody lead them into THINKING they are serving God but REALLY ARE SERVING a man who "Rapes young girls" and eventually their own lusts, I believe these verses apply absolutely and 100%. And in my experience they in true wayfer fashion still think it is a simple matter of living in the Wierwille delusion of Godliness. _____________________ Another scripture, Mt 6.... 21For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. 22The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 23But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great [is] that darkness! ______________________ Personally, I think the utmost care must be used in handling these verses because they were turned against me by somebody who I truly believe is worthy of this judgment and it hurt me and my life a lot. Plus I have witnessed newer believers become fearfully paralyzed in there walk and seemingly very deeply in their minds by the weight of the judment these verses refer to. Plus I have witnessed heavy handed preachers move the "preachies" to places that were not only not good, but IMO totally worthless. Plus, because of the many warnings such as the verse...."Judge not lest ye be judged." I believe the consequences for mishandling these things is bad, bad, and BAD all the way around.

Yeah, same verses for me too! Interesting, and good I think. --------------------------- Thanks for this Geisha! "My opinion. . . . . a good verse to keep in mind when considering anything we think we may know from TWI . . . . or the gold we think we may have escaped with is 2 Timothy 3:7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth." --------------------------- "The heart is deceitful above all things" Ok, so do we have gold from The Way International or not? Or have we been given a false estimation of ourselves along with a false estimate of the worth of Way ministry doctrine. I suspect that for each of us it will vary according to our own Way Ministry experience but I believe that certain Way Ministry trends are self-evident and worth watching out for. One of the most prevalent Way Ministry trend IMO is the TWI understanding what it is to be a meat eater, as oppose to being a babe that needs milk. Isn't it eisegesis to teach that blatant adultery is ok for the "meat eaters"? ("spiritually mature" being the Way ministry phrase)Talk about reading into the scriptures to make it mean what Wierwille wanted! WTF? Isn't it decieving ourself to assume that our own unique experieces make us the "chosen people" or "spiritually mature"? The answer is WE ARE DECIEVED if we think that adultery is for the mature, that our education alone makes us mature, or that the fact we've been led by Way ministry example to think that manipulation and/or bullying is the purview of the mature. BEWARE OF THE LEAVEN OF THE WAY INTERNATIONAL! But also,referring to simple human nature I believe that it is normal to assume that we are among the smart, mature, chosen......etc. Especially if our authority figures tell us we are great so we don't see them for the vile, manipulative sociopaths that they really are! This IMO is ample evidence that the human heart is very, very deceitful. Incorrect eisegesis just fuels the fire. (I added a bit intending clarification.)

FYI, I have never read/saw (whichever applies) "Through the Looking Glass." But right off hand... perhaps Humpty Dumpty shouldn't have been expecting a knock-down argument? Understanding is the goal; minutiae oftentimes leads to paralysis IMO. Sometimes the clever fall to cleverness (Bullinger being too caught up in the minutiae of his excessive dispensational argument IMO), the educated fall to people who speak their own language (Tyndale was fooled by a man who was also a Cambridge student who then betrayed him before he could finish translating the Bible). Some eisegesis is necessary if one is believing that the whole of the OT scriptures point to Christ, yes? Else wasn't the writer of the book of Hebrews mistaken when he likened Melchisidec to Christ, after all Genesis doesn't actually SAY Christ, right? Or again when the book of Hebrews likens all the OT sacrifice as perfected by Christ's once and for all sacrifice. Or yet again when Hebrews states that Abraham believed that God would raise Isaac from the grave because Genesis doesn't actually SAY what Abraham believed that led him to willingness to carry out the seemingly unattainable commandment. Understanding is the goal...!? Perhaps best to say, "This we will do, God willing."

"The heart is deceitful above all things" We have a dam hard time perceiving truth, we tend to believe lies, whenever we think we have answers we are just fooling ourselves, everytime we think we have it right we end up feeling disapointed in ourselves and others, our own judgement will probably surprise us even though it is written fairly plainly. But sure...go ahead and define "heart" if you must. :B)

I found this one downright thought provoking Roy. :) And fun to say too! Bitty Batter bought some butter “But,” said she, “this butter’s bitter. If I put it in my batter, It will make my batter bitter.” So she bought some better butter, And she put the better butter in the bitter batter, And made the bitter batter better.

Yeah, it is sad Steve. He called himself "a true son of Wierwille" last I heard and made sure everyone else did too.

B-b-b-b-b-but...my leader said, if I don't meet my quota, uh, er, I mean win a lost soul he'll consider me unfit! :blink:

Ideally, we should read what is said, yes. But I find that it is nigh impossible to not read "into" anything we read. Wierwille said he let the scriptures speak for themselves but in retrospect was amazingly self-serving in terms of how he read "into" the scriptures IMO. And for the record, he was twisted, vile, and evil in how he presented his eisegisis as exegesis. For an example..."All women belong to the king." (I added the forth line in editing for clarification) Helped with the Monty Python topic nyunknown?