JeffSjo

Wierwille said that for a general to his troops a suggestion was enough. As a former troop I can say that is untrue in every sense. Any member of the armed forces wants their superiors to be on the record when they give orders. Wierwille was just being slippery and slimey!

From leadership and non-leadership I have heard folks speak of not knowing where to tithe. For a committed wayfer it seems evident that dealing with the topic would certainly be one of the hurdles that anyone who believed the doctrine of the tithe must deal with. I did too. But I'm thinking now that deciding where, when,or if to give without behing worked over by the task masters first could be an exciting voyage of personal discovery. (edited for clarity)

I got'cha now Twinky. I couldn't BEGIN to count the number of times I've said something that needed a little clarification for a particular reader.

Glad for the Ham man.... http://phineasandferb.wikia.com/wiki/S.I.M.P._(Squirrels_In_My_Pants) Or if you prefer here is the Youtube link..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGHYyORkEms&feature=player_embedded

Hi Twinky, Normally I wouldn't speak for anyone, but because you are showing concern I am pointing out that Skyrider said that his Way International tenure lasted from 1974 to 1988. But it in any sense seems like great advice to any current member. :)

I AGREE BRAINY! They can take their "smiley grins", "automotive cars", "Wierwillian abuses", and their "international countries" and fade away...preferably sooner rather than later.

Hi Skyrider and interesting consideration IMO. :) For me beginning to realize how twisted Way Ministry style like-mindedness was came as a result of a number of situations that came upon me as a member of River Road Fellowship. Now even though I recognize that a group of folks can be like-minded on certain things the whole concept is automatically one that sets off a lot of "danger" feelings for me. I feel that I cannot deny that in the early years of The Way International many people experienced a wave of excitement, healing, and love in The Way it's demise was inevitable. Since in either a biblical sense or even just a moralistic sense at the very top levels of leadership what was stubbornly entrenched in The Way was abuse, delusion, and lies. Either of these alone might constitute organizational poison for any group IMO, but when added up together as it applied to top level Way leadership it is a potent cocktail of poisons. To draw an analogy, I think the most toxic organic poisons found in nature are a mix of several different poisons and targets for the creature's toxins within it's victim. As to whatever verbage we may choose to use the toxic effects of the Way's dark and hidden organizational behaviors the lessening of whatever goodness individuals like Fug!t or maybe others brought to the table was inevitable. "Legalism" doesn't exactly jive for me since within The Way "legalism" became an insult hurled into the faces of those that were justly calling certain Way behaviors what they really were. In order for me to use legalism as my word of choice I feel I must need to redefine the word as it was used in my Wayfer days to gloss over even my very own faults, saying things like,"That really wasn't too bad, don't be so legalistic!" But verbage aside, I think I understand what you are talking about.

I just googled The Way International and "GreaseSpot Cafe - Home" was number three on the list on page#1. The Way International- homepage was still number one however. <_< This was at the bottom of their homepage..... "Outreach We have fellowships serving the Word of God throughout the United States and in two U.S. territories and over thirty international countries." I for one am very glad that they are in over "thirty INTERNATIONAL countries." "INTERNATIONAL countries"!?...... as opposed to what; national countries!? I feel decades of overemphasis on perfection within a closed system only leads to gross and illogical silliness.

Usually my dreams seem to be my mind coming to terms with the things in my life. Sometimes I get them and sometimes I don't. If Wayfers dreams were bad it may have been a result of the crapola they had to learn to believe as it opposed reality as a whole. especially for those who were in pressure cooker situations. But Wierwille's dream.....shutter.

Even The Way International has not turned me away from the idea of an original and inspired Word of God. But Wierwille's character faults and the vile abuses of the ministry he built makes it very easy to understand why anybody might trash the whole idea, I mean for them the concept is a part of the bill of goods that led to their own abuse. I think he will be responsible for these folks in that great day coming!

No it doesn't have anything directly to do with the accuracy of the source material but I prefer a perspective of the texts that includes an understanding of the dedication, cultural reverence, and intelligence of the folks who handled the scriptures. And I don't think we in our culture have much of any contemporary examples in terms of handling the texts consistently over the course of time. Much less are we qualified to judge these types of folks without at least seeing how much stuff they dealt with a long, long time ago in order to preserve the integrity of the original texts. Our tendency, even in acedemic circles is IMO underestimating them, else why would it be so easy to assume they are as illogical and inconsistent as western Christianity as a whole has proven to be with the texts? My point is that in modern Christianity we have not even come close to the way the Jews handled the texts in terms of reverence. Heck, if western Christianity had done a better job with analysis and preservation of the texts Wierwille at least wouldn't have had the ability to sell the Wayfers on the whole, "We will recover the original inspired Word of God" stuff in the first place.

I'm betting the staffers there are not able to be led into Way Ministry delusion as to what was really going on. Can you imagine Letterman staffers saying, "Letterman is the MOGFODAT, he was just ministering to'em?" Not bloody likely!

HHHAAAAA How can anyone say, "I want to be The American Idol" by the Spirit, Excathedra?

I've been considering the little historic knowledge I have of the scriptures and have formed a few opinions. It seems to me that the pre-Christian Jews had a long time and well established record of considering the scriptures and a lot of the commentaries with a type of reverence that we in the west have never seen consistently in our western culture. I have often heard of the extreme care the Jewish scribes had as concerning the scriptures. Specifically how they counted each marking on the page of every type and kept track of authenticity over centuries of time. I've heard dead sea scrolls scholars report that they were amazed at how close to identical the most ancient dead sea scroll was to more contemporary Jewish scripture. In the west it seems to me that Christianity has not even come close to living up to the old Jewish standard. Any interlinear provides multiple texts on any one of a multitude of scriptural passages. IMO western Christianity has been sloppy and irreverant by any comparison with the old Jewish examples of consistent scriptural reverence. I think both within Jewish and Christian circles there has been a lot of discussion as to consideration of writing of all types, whether scriptural or commentaries. Jews have codified and standardized commentaries, but so has Christianity. In both camps there is a multitude of opinions, ideas, and grouping over a wide range of ideologies. Some Jewish groups hold others to be reprobate and heretical, the same in Christian circles. All that being said, personally I am content with my belief system as pertaining to my reverence of the scriptures. If my ideas perchance are good and laudable to God, IMO that in and of itself would be a true miracle considering all the variations and volotile history of both the Jewish and Christian religion. (added in editing) I mean a miracle of true biblical proportions. :B) And one more thing.... Because I give the old Jewish system of scriptural consistency a lot of credit, I find it a little annoying that it seems so easy for a modern scholar to get so much press and attention with their unsupportable ideas that hold the Jewish scriptures at the same level as myths that weren't accurate and have been reported to have been written centuries after the texts themselves say they were written. It seems unthinkably ironic to suggest that bad history and false stories from the outset could have then be held so consistently over so many centuries with so much reverence by soooo many good people.

Say for consideration sake the scriptures ARE INERRANT. We are not, the scriptures speak of those unstable souls that utilize scriptures but end is destruction. Say the scriptures ARE NOT INERRANT as supposed by some. But some get sooo much good from them that they at least recieve good end results. Either way, inerrant or not, some end up good and some end up nasty.

In secular terms we are all conditioned by our environment AND we decided for ourselves what to do about it. Bad choices lead to bad consequences and good choices to good, if life were always fair, which it is not. Paul's words seem to include BOTH personal responsibility AND acknowledging that we are simply putty in God's hands. Secular or scriptural I find both perspectives to be valuable considerations. In a coversation of "nature vs. nurture" I find my answer to be of necessity, "BOTH" and after the first time I figured out that "both" works for me I thought to myself, "duh." But most theological wrangling on how the specifics of these two perspectives work out in real life seems to me to lead to not much conversation that actually does much real good for anybody. The self assessed "predestined" inheriters of righteousness often become elitist. The ones who believe EVERYTHING in life is the result of personal choice can become pitiless bastards. A consideration of both, for me at least, seems to lead to a balanced perspective.

Interesting consideration Brainy. I have seen couples that had similar tendencies getting pulled into all kinds of bad things over the years. Any ex-wayfers that happen to be together may or may not happen to fall into old and less than healthy patterns. If a couple happened to have a snootfull and were the types of people that could accidentally fall into an adult version of provocation and belittling others they may be ex-wayfers or just living out their unfortunatly already established habits of naturally gravitating toward their old behavior of being the ruthless psycho chearleader and the ex-nerd with a chip on his shoulder. Either way, IMO, the thoughtless and jerky behavior may look just about the same. As to the things you are concerned about as concerning hooking up with an ex-cultist, I don't know you at all and how certain things trip you up or do not but I can certainly support you in your attempt to work through these things in your own life and wish you the best. I think you already know, any two of us may have the exact opposite experience as to what works for us. I certainly wish them the best and a good end as they figure these things out for themselves either way.

Well Twinky, If I'm number two, then I hardly started the trend. And from what I've already heard of GSC ex-wayfers here, I'm certain that a little giving like any I might do here is a drop in the bucket compared to any real giving they already do.

The Way International certainly messed this topic up for darn near everybody IMO. Some who warned of circumstantial victims opening the door to the adversary probably did so and effectively warned people away from some sort of mistake if perchance the one speaking had only good intentions. But others doubtlessly were sooo far into Way Ministry abusive practices that they only caused the very suffering they were seeking to cause to be avoided by the one ministered to (so-to-speak). From my perspective allowing the adversary in from a biblical perspective is doing something that allows self or others to be stolen from, killed, or destroyed. And whether or not one is a believer of the biblical definitions and personas set forth in biblical scripture it seems that all could possibly agree to handle the issue in a matter where ones belief in or disbelief of a "devil" is secondary as to the content and real effect of the conversation. Whether or not anyone believes in the "devil" all must agree that sometimes bad and destructive things happen to us and they are completely outside of our control. Frankly, when folks who believe in a "devil" persona ignorantly lay the blame at the feet of the victims of these tragedies they go directly to the place of being a destructive false prophet according to their own biblical definitions IMO. But a secularist may fall into the same folly if perchance they lay the blame of getting raped on the rape victim ignorantly. But at least the hateful secularist may have their views confronted without having their entire worldview challenged. For the mistaken view of the "believer" of a "devil" who is mistakenly cruel; they may also need to be proven wrong on their opinion of the spiritual realm, which realm by definition is beyong our sense knowledge analysis, and that is no easy thing to be corrected on IMO. Their mistaken belief as concerning the spiritual realm only serves to make their mistaken blame of the victim a much harder thing to correct. Whether or not anyone believes in a "devil" it is easy to lay the blame at the feet of Wierwille if he drugged and raped women, or if he abused women in his rv, or their homes, or if he abused successive generations of women in one family. Such things are the actions of a monster. If one believes in a devil, how is it possible to trust a man or his ministry when it tells folks of where to see the "devil" and which direction the devil is attacking them from. A secularist would rightly say Wierwille was a monster. A believer in spiritual and biblical beings must according to any sanity left in them (IMO) say Wierwille stole from and destroyed peoples' lives, hence brought the "devil's" devices into their lives. Martindale lost the presidency of The Way International because of moving the same devilish devices into people's lives. Rosie has lied about and covered up her own knowledge of these devilish devices according to many, many sound reports IMO. The one I'm currently thinking of concerns the report that Rosie went around and made sure to quite Martindale's other victims by a combination of carrot and stick methods. The carrot was something like, "If you remain quite you will be untouchable here at The Way International." The stick was something like, "If you speak out we will do everything in our power to destroy your life and reputation." IMO at The Way International such a warning of consequences can be given subtly by example, outrightly with verbal warnings, or summary judgment on people in order to make an example of them, and many GSCers seem to recall many warnings being given of all three of these types. Most of the former top Way Ministry has lied about and/or remained silent as to the extent of their own involvement in these "devilish" practices". How can they now purport to start splinter groups without a full and public airing of Way Ministry devilishness? A believer in a "devil" may rightly see them as totally unqualified to teach about the "devil's" methods and attacks. An unbeliever may rightly conclude they are no better than any other pervert or criminal who refuses to come to terms with their own perverse and/or damaging actions. Either believer or unbeliever may fairly conclude that to some extent each and every one of them is hypocritical and unaccountable for their own nasty/devilish actions, and they have not resisted or exposed the actions of the ones who did the nasty/devilish deeds. As a believer in these "spiritual personas" I claim them to be ineffective and even still guilty in not resisting the devil and allowing the "devil's" work to be unhindered and still hidden. But I completely agree with any secularist who rightly sees Way Ministry leadership is worthy of blame in strictly secular terms. (edited for the sake of clarity and typos too.) (added in editing) If you have a ministry that builds on John 10:10 you'd better be ready to own up to your own st!t. And as concerning the whole concept of building on the "good" in The Way International. Have you folks even read what God reportedly does to those who do evil in his name? Wouldn't getting the "F" away before the whole thing gets burnt to a crisp make more sense, sheesh, if you claim God's grace according to the scriptures at least try to claim it according to something ACTUALLY RECORDED in the scriptures about how God rewards devilishness that is wrongly committed in HIS name. And for those that don't believe in God's judgment, how easy is it to see that looking for good things from The Way International is at best ill-advised wishful thinking?

Cool thread Twinky, And here at GSC we don't appear to have any ex-TWI willing to tell any of us how carnal we are to presume to consider giving our own money to a credible charitable organization that actually helps people in dire need. Just keeps getting better and better.....

Well...... I guess as long as we are getting soooooo much good use out of it.

I messed up today. I thought I was wrong, but that was messed up. :B)

Thank you Twinky. :) I only wish it could through to more and more of them.....sigh.

I'm not certain about the full extent of Pharis' influence but as Pharis shared it seemed JL was certainly paying attention Ham. And it seemed obvious to me that Lynn at the time was just learning about this stuff, but that was just my impression for whatever it's worth. One of the exercizes the pharisites did was to line folks up facing away from the folks who were to be practicing personal prophecying. Then the pharisites in traning were to practise directing prophecies at one of the folks in the line that faced away from them. If a particular person in that line knew it was directed at them thay were to raise their hand. Whoever proved to consistently nail individuals prophetically without using their names or other overtly individual information were reckoned to be prophets in training. I would think it would be the ideal excersize if you want a ministry of highly intelligent sociopaths to be directing people's lives through prophecying, but that's just my take on things. Maybe I just don't see what Pharis-see. hehehehe

It seems likely to me the victim was told to leave this evil place when they discovered their bullying was not acceptible. Probably given a place to handle his own actions in his thinking by blaming us. Truth be told there are little girls here at GSC that could back down their attempt to intimidate us into accepting the love, so-called. (Added in editing) I hope the awesome women of GSC can overlook the implied sexism in my last statement because my taunt is aimed at long time Way Ministry thinking patterns. :unsure: