JeffSjo

How bout the more subtle version then? If only God would bless them as he has us...sigh. Or the one out of Wierwille's own mouth which went something like,"They are blessed just to have you in their communities...that's right!"

If any of us didn't notice that behavior from our wayfer days Bolshevik, it might be simply because we don't remember doing exactly that.

Hi erkjohn, The internet being what it is you are right that Caribousam may be anyone. The profile gives a fifty year old person of indeterminate gender, for whatever that is worth. And I believe that in certain circumstances a fifty year old person may fit into the same category of a little boy or a little girl in terms of needing to find their own voice and be met with the same patience. But Caribousam has been a member here since Jan.07 and it seems most likely to me that his/her own voice is somewhat developed already. And as I took it upon myself to send Caribousam's words back at him/her trying to be clear in what I heard in that voice I still feel ok in that I made it very clear that what I objected to in that voice ran far, far deeper than simply the intellectual content in the post. I have no problem implying fairly directly that Caribousam's voice I find to be objectionable and if I heard it correctly I'm hoping Caribousam takes it to heart and quits looking down on people like Waysider who IMO (as I've stated) has brought up a hard topic that I can see potential profit in, especially here at GSC where some folks see exactly another VPW when they read of Paul. And even if I didn't have any further info about Caribousam to evaluate as if in conformation to my opinion as soon as I was done posting I saw that Caribousam had posted in "Rosestoyou's" thread in the "CES-STFI" section. Caribousam posted what IMO is an ill-informed opinion of the health of CES, and in doing so completely ignored Rosestoyou's comments as if they were not even there. And in that post it seemed to me that Caribousam came to this thread in well worn TWI leadership manner in order to stomp all over Waysider and impress us and the CES folks with his/her bigshotness. (Yeah, I know, it's not a word, but maybe it should be. :) ) And if I'm wrong about Caribousam's intentions I'll be the first to admit it, but I am not backing down in suggesting some tweaking of Caribousam's voice needs to be done by Caribousam.

Right Track except for the prophetic garbage, soothsayers, run by the devil, corruption for the sake of power and money, and doing TWI shipwreck all over again? I think we may need to spend some time to redefine "right track."

I'd generally attempt to refute or at least present another viewpoint to anyone who said Paul was the VPW of his day if I thought it would do any good but saying... You got my attention but are wrong, there are volumes written that say you are wrong, you hardly have to be a human being to come up with your points, pray, study, and possibly God will open your eyes. Sheesh Caribousam, I already don't give a fig what else you may have to say. Nice 'tude BTW!

Just another catch phrase repeated over and over again so we'd believe it IMO. But now it seems evident that the reality of what TWI teaching as pertaining to concerning biblical, scientific precision and mathematical accuracy was like telling us that 2 + 2 = cat.

ME TOO!

I don't know what's going on in your life Gen-2, but considering the little bit that you've shared plus the fact you feel like you are up against some form of deadline I can not help but be concerned for you and how this all comes out after it is all said and done. I refrain from speaking beyond that which I know of your situation because I know nothing of it. And to be frank my experience tells me that their is definitely more ways to make things worse for you than to actually help by shooting my mouth off. But.... I've come to consider these things a little differently than as I did in my wayfer days. As I shared before w/ you. I do not believe it is wise to be just another misinformed believer who chases after every reported miracle because I believe most of these types of reports to be bogus and this only leaves me a fool to be taken in. But you seem to be in earnest in regards to a need so I don't think this behavior applies to you. I believe that in TWI people saw genuine miracles and phenomenon perhaps in spite of the twisted and sick leadership and the fact that much of what the top leadership reported was in fact disingenuous for the sake of manipulation. But the ones who saw it and found it to be true were such that they fit into the category of "little children" in terms of there faith and their wisdom even. Didn't the Lord say of the mighty works in His ministry that God saw fit to show this might to little children and not to the kings and prophets? And in another place the scriptures point out that even though a king may seek, God may hide the matter. In another place the Lord shared that we future believers will long for the days when heaven's power was used for delivering miracles. I take that to mean that even though the Lord also spoke of believers in Him to do greater works than even his own, that He also spoke of times when people would long to do and see such things. And for even though who do manage to do mighty works even in His name, isn't it spoken of that some of the "mighty works" folks He Himself would reject saying,"...I know you not." And a few Christian groups say they excell in these things too, I don't know if it is true or not, but I suspect that if there is genuine childlike faith then there are some real miracles. But unfortunately I can not keep track of the number of types of b.s. that goes along with some of these groups even as it turned out in "The Way International." My opinion now is that none of us are able to show you these things of ourselves, because it is God's choosing. TWI theology tends to leave HIM out of it IMO. Even Paul after his mighty works at a later date reports that God saving one man's life was in part due to God's mercy, lest he has more sorrow that he can bear. So likewise my concern for you in your seeking, I don't know the situation or the need and I am not at all in charge of whether you will see the things you feel you must. Whether you end up with sorrow or deliverance I would choose to support you and help. (spelling corrections and a small change for the sake of specificity)

In this I am thankful, TWI seems to be a dried and dead pile of stale, rehashed, subpar biblical fellowship for most kids nowadays based on what I've heard. Not so much in my former splinter group "River Road Fellowship." Although considering how my former associates are steeped in denial that is lamely covered by twisted TWI style cliches RRF folks seemed headed down the same TWI style road. The younger generation rightly rejects their parents' foolishness and the parents are stuck in a place of inaction and stupidity IMO. In the case of some of the younger ones that have left they actually seem fairly well enthralled by the very son of the one who so abused their mothers...sad. But it was not too long ago when their youthful exuberance was spent on the one who so brutally destroyed families and set himself up as the so-called "Word in the Flesh." ______________________________ River Road Felllowship under the leadership of Victor Barnard, 14th Corps grad: Abused women and girls. Broken families. Idiots in denial held captive by religious cliches within some twisted and freaky group think. Younger adults enthralled and controlled by Barnard's methods being led to a place that looks new but still under the same old yolk of deception and manipulation. ______________________________ I seems to me that much of this may not apply to TWI as a whole, perhaps because TWI is very much farther along the road to simply drying up and being blown away, lost forever in every sense except the Lord will remember IMO. But perhaps for some, whether another splinter or as it may relate to more current recruits this thread may be a good read. I hope so. (edited for spelling errors)

I like the usage of that one Dooj. :D -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Results for: autobibliophiles 16.2 Autobibliophiles on Flickr - Photo Sharing!16.2 Autobibliophiles. ... 16.2 Autobibliophiles. 16.2 Autobibliophiles by 060672. To take full advantage of Flickr, you should use a JavaScript-enabled ... www.flickr.com/photos/22388919@N00/3114613229/ - Cached Flickr: 060672's Photostream16.2 Autobibliophiles by 060672. Anyone can see this photo All rights reserved. Uploaded on Dec 16, 2008 · 0 comments · 16.15 Unbookshop by 060672 ... www.flickr.com/photos/22388919@N00/page7/ - Cached Studio Bibliothèque: BookshopThis companion brochure to the studio's inaugural exhibition, Autobibliophiles, features 28 international artists exploring diverse subthemes related to the ... studiobibliotheque.blogspot.com/2008/.../bookshop-listing.html - Cached - Similar __________________________________ I googled autobibliophile just now and while it doesn't appear to be a brand new original word on you part, there still doesn't seem to be much to go on. NOT MUCH TO GO ON IMO, PERHAPS WE HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO DEFINE A NEW PHRASE! :D

I think most all of us as former or even current Wayfers are ramifications in some sense Gen-2. And IMO no matter our ages or individual situations there is inherint value in our lives and our journey. And all of us have things to give. I'm thankful for your parents to have set you on this journey with God and His Word. And IMO you are no less valuable than the bigshots with connections and the history that makes them feel to be "all that."

I like how this one focuses on the particular manner of puffed up yet sadly deluded TWI style of being the only "WAY" Roy. But I'm fairly certain that even this is another fairly common to humankind malady that is readily found elsewhere too.

I hear you Sunesis! It seems especially pathetic to me that in spite of their public stance which really amounts to "worshipping of da Verd" as you say that they've really butchered and hashed to pieces the scriptures. I've come to consider the root cause of TWI's pathetic reality of scriptural study to not be the scriptures or Christianity as a whole. I really, really understand why many seem to be anable to even view the scriptures without seeing some kind of Wierwillian personality disorder, but doesn't all this prove the scripture that says, "You shall know them by their fruit" to be at the very least a valid observation?

Hi Ham, Interesting question referring to affiliation. I just googled "affiliation" and here is a copy of the results..... __________________________________ Related phrases: religious affiliation european affiliation no affiliation church affiliation cultural affiliation affiliation quebec non affiliation Definitions of affiliation on the Web: a social or business relationship; "a valuable financial affiliation"; "he was sorry he had to sever his ties with other members of the team ... the act of becoming formally connected or joined; "welcomed the affiliation of the research center with the university" wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn In law, affiliation (from Latin ad-filiare, to adopt as a son) is the term to describe a partnership between two or more parties. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affiliation The relationship resulting from affiliating one thing with another; A club, society or umbrella organisation so formed, esp. a trade union en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Affiliation affiliate - consort: keep company with; hang out with; "He associates with strange people"; "She affiliates with her colleagues" affiliate - a subordinate or subsidiary associate; a person who is affiliated with another or with an organization affiliate - join in an affiliation; "The two colleges affiliated"; "They affiliated with a national group" wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn affiliated - being joined in close association; "affiliated clubs"; "all art schools whether independent or attached to universities" wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn Affiliated is an album by MC Eiht, following the "Veterans Day" release from 2004. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affiliated Affiliate - In the broadcasting industry (especially in North America), a network affiliate (or affiliated station) is a local broadcaster which carries some or all of the programme line-up of a television or radio network, but is owned by a company other than the owner of the network. ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_(e-commerce) Affiliate (Notes of a Radio Presenter) (Russian: Филиал (Записки ведущего)) is a novel by the Russian writer Sergei Dovlatov. ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_(novel) affiliated - Associated, related, or united en.wiktionary.org/wiki/affiliated affiliative - tending to promote social cohesion en.wiktionary.org/wiki/affiliative affiliate - Someone or something that is affiliated, or associated; a member of a group of associated things; To adopt; to receive into a family as a son; hence, to bring or receive into close connection; to ally; To fix the paternity of; — said of an illegitimate child; as, to affiliate the child to ... en.wiktionary.org/wiki/affiliate affiliate - An entity that controls, is controlled by, or is under common control with another entity. www.cica.ca/index.cfm/ci_id/36552/page/1.htm __________________________________ It seems to me that the definition of an affiliation is representative of a large number of different types of working relationships. It seems espescially interesting to me to note that one of the huge variables appears to be how much control one part of an affiliation may have over the other. But for the purposes of your thread here it may be more relevant to note how that it may be more important that an affiliation may be more applicable in terms of loyalties, purpose, or manner of behavior. It seems a terrible waste for these larger splinter groups that their true affiliation is with TWI in terms of the heavy handed authoritarianism, manipulative manners, scriptural blindness, and most unfortunately IMO the paranoid lack of transparancy that hides who knows how much abuse!?

This is a fascinating conversation IMO. :) For my admitedly Christian oriented conscience I do not fear any other reality in terms of any judgement I may hypothetically recieve from any universal reality. If I manage to learn to better and deal with my faults within the Christian framework that I understand, I feel content with consequences from any source and/or philosophy. The "Holding the firefly in the jar" mentality I do find to be a human failing and not exclusively Christian. My opinion of God's place in my life makes me of necessity the small and insignificant one by comparison, and I find that realization enough to counter any "firefly in the jar" tendencies I might have. Life, death, sickness, heartache, sorrow and tears; things going on that I have no real control over necessitate me discovering that I am small and fortunate to simply be drawing another breath. But within a Godless philosiphy I find adequate and comfortable fellowship simply acknowledging and respecting their own school of hard knocks. Whether religious or not I find a gut level antipathy with those that look down on others and believe that they have all the answers. Compared to these huge life lessons, which IMO are also a well worn scriptural perspective; whether the prophet shares of God's arrows taking hold in his flesh, or whether the prophet is heartbroken over proclaiming God's judgement on the evil/foolish ones; parsing verbs and puffed up textual/intellectual criticisms seem somewhat annoying and require me to count to ten or something before I unwisely loose my patience/temper.

I appreciate that you honestly explore a hard topic as this one concerning credibilty Waysider. Personally I feel that if my beliefs can not handle a hard question maybe they aren't everything I think they are in the first place. You call Paul's credibility into question directly Waysider. My view now is that Wierwille's actions are what causes people to call everybody that ever presented themself as a good man or a man of God into question, and I think causing people to question the goodness of God in our case will ultimately rest on Wierwille's head. But personally speaking, I haven't heard a single thing that causes me to doubt the credibility of the scriptures or Paul, but as I already shared, I don't mind challenging my beliefs with hard questions. And Paul's credibility is what you called into question by comparing him to Wierwille. (I added a bit for the sake of clarity in editing.)

A particularly sad story for me now is hearing how TWI rejected Scheinheit's research paper saying adultery was wrong around the time of POP. Twisted TWIt leadership....

Hi Gen-2, I'm very glad you shared this experience in the service with us. As a member of the armed forces you have faced some horrible things for sure, and thank you! As a member of TWI you had some idea that you were capable of producing miracles by the Spirit of God. And it seems to me that many former Wayfers can relate to trying to heal people and trying to raise someone from the dead as you have because I have heard many similar types of sharings as your attempt to do such a thing, heck, it's what we were told we could do back in the day. As these things pertain to this thread this is topical and not off track at all too me. It's about how we relate to the things TWI told us was true. I still believe I have the Spirit of God in me and I believe that the biblical stories of Paul's miracles are true, but he was the one to say nearly two thousand years ago that deievers would wax worse and worse and many other such things. I think holding on too my beliefs and face the reality that TWI was founded by a perverted deciever who taught that he and we could produce genuine miracles by the Spirit is a very hard thing to face. I don't look down on those who understandably think because of TWI leadership deceptions that even Paul lied. In one sense I believe it's easy to understand why somebody so badly brokenhearted and dissolusioned can feel that way after seeing the ugly side of TWI. I now believe that according to biblical statements it's not a good idea to chase after these types of miracles and such. I hope whatever you believe now that you are coming to terms with the events in your life that year outside of Basra. This one thing I'm sure of, you are not the only Wayfer to ever attempt to produce a life saving miracle and not have it work out as you hoped.

In my brief time in TWI proper I was sold out to and sold the concept of TWI being a biblical research ministry. I often parroted the idea that if we (TWI that is) learned something new we would change the doctrine to line up with what we learned from the bible. In many respects I still feel that some of these ideas are how it should be done in any church, period. But what I didn't know was the reality of how things really ran at TWI in the proximity of top leadership and how that all of the ideals that I believed in back in the early eighties were very far from how TWI actually ran the "research" part of the ministry.

And as these things pertain to the topic of this thread, I am very concerned about those whose familial relationships were already broken down. On the one hand, how many parents are seeking to restore a healthy relationship with their kids. And how many kids are so far gone from their parents that they don't even realize that their knee-jerk rejection of their parents is simply a result of being manipulated by a skilled sociopathic predator. And even for those that are in this situation, knowing how to come out of this situation and deal with it is a long, long process, and certainly not easy IMO.

Hi Bolshevik, I'm not sure how to say it but here is my best attempt at it... Once a deliberately encouraged group think has been become the norm always being "the bad guy" is automatically the result of going against the grain. For me, I was the bad guy while fighting to have a child and desiring to being a father.And also, I was "the bad guy" while I was fighting to stay married to my ex-wife while she was selling out to this bastard who has been reported to have been sleeping with most, if not all of the women of "River Road Fellowship."

Perhaps it was... "You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time, but either way milk them for all you can while you've got em fooled."

Just an update for everyone... It appears that my former friends (so-called) have chosen the following option as to how to deal with me and my viewpoints. I could wish for a more productive option even though most of the other options include more trouble for me but a better end result for them....sigh. #1 Since they have no real good answer for my points they unfortunately decide to slip back out of the limelight and keep the twisted, cruel, and manipulative things of Barnard's manner to themselves without ever really realizing how much of their reality is pure kaka.