So_crates

Its a misconception on your part. The context of the comment was GSC audience, not PLAF. Your answer is about PLAF. Once again, if all these people support Saint Vic and PLAF, where are they? It's easy enough to get an account, log in, and post. But what do we have? Crickets and tumbleweeds. You can claim anything about a group that's silent. You claim they want to separate PLAF from the ministry, I could claim the believed in the "pure evil" Saint Vic. Without proof one claim is just as valid as the other. As far as PLAF goes: you remember when Saint Vic suggested we read only the bible and the PLAF materials for a while. Well, I've done that. Also aiding me is a near photographic memory. I read something, I'm usually pretty good about remembering it word for word. That's why you see me quote PLAF and the bible in my arguments to you. So, if PLAF is such a big part of your life, why don't you ever refer to it or the bible in your responses?

I assure you we don't need repetition. Repetition is the bull bureaucrats pull when they don't have an answer. Repetition is a non-answer: It's something said so it looks like it's answering a question, but its not. If you find people have the same misconceptions, then change the way the message is transmitted.

If we have misconceptions, that's YOUR FAULT. Your responsibility is to transmit your message so that there are no misunderstandings.

There's little more annoying than someone who constantly insists he knows everything better than everyone else, yet when it comes time to provide proof he never does. Pretty big talk from someone who just made them slog through 13 pages of dribble, dribble, dribble to get to PLAF is God-breathe because I say its God-breathe and I know it because God tells me it is (see how easy it is to put something in 25 words or less). Your really fixated on the "pure evil" model. aren't you? This forum has provided more than ample proof of all the evil he's done, where's your proof of the good? Ever hear of me thinks thou protests too much? Perhaps deep in your heart you know Saint Vic was an evil, evil man and would prefer to whitewash his evil in favor of something you think you'd gain. Your also constantly claiming people are trying to shut you up, mocking you, and picking your statements apart. Perhaps you should look at your believing when you see that "pure evil" model and think your getting negative results here. And you know this how? Now you can read the minds of everyone coming to this forum, right?

The first rule of writing anything is: Know your audience. I don't go on an atheist website and try to witness to them. Nor do I go onto a Young Republicans website to discuss the joys of socialism. Nor would I go to communist website to chat up the benefits of capitalism. Why? Because I know I'll create a flame war that will make World War III look like a bad case of flatulance. So maybe he should consider the audience here.

So, in other words, if people don't believe what you do... Or is this a way of getting around how irrational your position is? A few posts back you said: Actually, I could “address” the logic to be compelling to the man-on-the-street, while I literally address it to you folks here. When we were discussing fruit and proof, you claimed: It's hard to see ALL the fruit ACCURATELY in someone else's life. Well, logically, just as its hard to see the fruit accurately in some else's life, its even harder to hear God speaking in someone elses life. Again, you did say you were addressing it logically for the man in the street didn't you? I wonder how many of those men in the street believe God talks to them, or how many would buy it when someone told them God told them something was true. As far as rewarding people who diligently seek him in relation to PLAF, I wonder how many of those woman Saint Vic pulled his shenanigans on were diligently seeking God. They certainly were rewarded weren't they. Say, you like surveys. How about you do a survey of Saint Vic's victims and see if they were ever rewarded? And who did get rewarded in those countless cases? Was he diligently seeking God when he was out of fellowship most of the time?

And how do I know God really speaks to people. As your argument with fruits of false prophets, that's not something I would hear so...

Boy, are you in the wrong business. Nobody ever told you that it requires a tough skin to write. What you call rejecting, picking apart, deriding and mocking is pointing to the illogic in you claims. As for your proofs, well I deal with them when and IF I ever see them. As far as disobeying, just who do you think you are? You make claims and you expect us to OBEY them? Sorry. I stopped running after outragious claims when I left the ministry.

I get the feeling Christ will return first. I figure if you could do it, you would. But, you aren't, so....

We would focus on the logic if there was any. All you do is make claims and then hem and haw about proving them

You've never heard of Occum's Razor? A topic is only as complex as you make it. When I ask you for the formula to find the area of a circle, I don't need the history of pi, the history of geometry, Archimedes biography, and a dissertation on the use of circles. The only thing I need to know is pi R-square. If I'm asking for the time, I don't need someone to tell me how to build a clock. As a matter of fact, my experience tells me the longer and more meandering an answer, the more likely someone's trying to con me. (Like the man said, if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull.) So, in the spirit of that clarification you want to do: So then what's the test, in 25 words or less, that's, according to Saint Vic, supposed to tell us what's God-breathe and what's not?

So then what's the test, in 25 words or less, that's, according to Saint Vic, supposed to tell us what's God-breathe and what's not?

So, even if we were to buy into this: your saying Saint Vic is telling us his writings are worthless. There is no way to tell what's God-breathe and what's not, so the whole discussion is academic. It's the old Skittles problem: You know two Skittles in the pile are poisonous, do you eat a handful? In this case, you know some of Saint Vic's writings are not God-breathe, do you follow them to the letter?

Raf, When I started the thread I wasn't sure if I posted it in the right place. If you feel it serves GSC better in Doctrinal, by all means move it.

My quotes in black Mike's in red My comments below _____________________________ You forgot the word "false." Freudian slip? No, we can know true prophets also by their fruits in our lives. You don't comprehend, your still going against what Jesus Christ said: You will know them by their fruit. Asking how much fruit does nothing but cloud the issue. Again, you have it wrong. I never said how MUCH fruit. I said ask WHERE is the fruit to look at. Try reading all my posts on this recently. You consistently fail to see what I am talking about about the LOCATION of the fruits to look at. Are you doing this on purpose? ... So, tell me, how would I see the fruit in your life? How would I know whether or not your lying to me? AGAIN, YOU MISSED IT! If you had understood my point you would know that I was telling you that the ONLY fruit that you can see is the fruit in YOUR own life. You DO seem to get the point that if I lied to about the fruit in my life it's because you can't see inside my life to see my fruit. You can ONLY see the fruit in your OWN life. EVERY single time you have missed this point of which fruit are we to look at in judging prophets to be true of not. __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Once again, hotshot, the responsibility of the communication lies with the communicator. Whether I get it or not is YOUR FAULT. It's not my responsibility to attempt to decode what you write. It's your responsibility to write it in a way that can be easily understood. I don't understand a story or article in a magazine, I put it down and walk away. I don't have the author calling me screaming I missed his point. It's his responsibility to make sure his point is clear. Now, as far as this only fruit in your life drek goes. That's a recipe for disaster. Ted Bundy looked like an average guy who drove a Volkswagen and volunteered for his political party. I'm sure he put good fruit in many of the young ladies lives that went with him and were never seen alive again. Same with John Wayne Gacy, I'm sure he put joy into a lot of those children's hearts when he was doing his clown routine, but then his other side came out. So, you fruit others put into our lives theory is wrong. Many people put good fruit in our lives with the intent of setting us up to do evil. Further, the text says, "Ye will know them by THEIR fruit," NOT ye shall know them by YOUR fruit... Remember, PLAF, God has a purpose for everything he says, when he says it.... Yah, you allude a lot but never post anything of substance. It's like I asked you before: What's with all this hemming and hawing (you call it alluding)? Did Peter beat around the bush after Pentacost? Did Paul dance people around at Mars Hill? Did Saint Vic tell us to speak with boldness?

Yah, well, where did I get the principle of believing from? Need I enumerate all the times I walked out on believing and fell flat on my face? Not as difficult as you think. See above. All any of the PLAF principles did for me was make me 42 years older

You forgot the word "false." Freudian slip? You don't comprehend, your still going against what Jesus Christ said: You will know them by their fruit. Asking how much fruit does nothing but cloud the issue. How many women have to be raped? How many people have to be abused? Does it really make a difference? (points over Mikes head) Look Mike there goes the point. You seem to want to cloud the issue. Christ said you will see the fruit (how else would you know the tree by its fruit}. So, tell me, how would I see the fruit in your life? How would I know whether or not your lying to me?

So then you admit there's no way of knowing whether PLAF is God-breathe or not.

So let's throw context out the window. If you bothered to look the verse up (Matthew 7:15-20), you'd see the context is false prophets. Not according to what Christ said. Again, read the verses instead of speculating. And I'm the exact opposite. After 42 years of working PLAF in my life the only thing I gained was 42 more years. So save all the talk about benefit, I'm proof its a scam.

Let's pretend your right. Once again we arrive at that pesky problem: How do we know which writings are God-breathe and which are not?

So basically your telling us is Jesus Christ was full of it when he told us we'd know them by their fruit

It's obvious you've never had a com class in your life. If you did, you'd know that the responsibility of the communication lies with the communicator. If I'm not getting it, it's your fault, not mine. Considering you've been singing the same tired tune sincw 2002, I'd think you'd be an old pro at it by now, But, oddly, things are no different then they were in 2002, still making claims without evidence to support them, still claiming you haven't time to explain yourself, still accusing people who question you pouncing. So tell me, 16 years later, how's this method of communication working out for you?

My origional statements in black Mike's in red My responses after the --- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The first error you made was God forgives when we admit our transgressions. Saint Vic never admitted he transgressed. You are guessing and hoping he never admitted this. I heard and read different. Someday I'll bring the evidence to this, again. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just as your guessing. If you have evidence, please present it Isn't it odd you always claim you have evidence, but you never present it ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- During the early days when Saint Vic claimed it was okay to be in a orgy because God would have wrote "It was best not to touch a woman" rather than the "It is good" He wrote. I'm unaware of him putting this doctrine into writing or on tape. I expect that he was dead wrong on things, from time to time that he said and even taught. Aren't we ALL dead wrong from time to time? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It was documented in a book by one of the upper eschelon before Saint Vic had all Way funds flow to Way Nash. Right or wrong isn't the issue, the issue is was he repentent and does he sound repentent? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- He threatened his victims with saying they were possessed by devil spirits. That sound repentant to you? Assuming that happened: No. Not at all. Not THAT time. But what happened the next day? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- He went and found another victim ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- All the way through the latter days, one person in this forum describes how he approached Saint Vic with his indiscretions. Saint Vic's answer, "We don't discuss that." And the individual sat in the room for several minute threatened by a growling dog. This sound repentant to you? Not at all. Not THAT time. I'm sure David and Solomon had their unrepentant days. I do too. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We're not talking days, year talking years, with many, many victims. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Did God forgive David? Yes he did after he admitted his sins. I'm willing to bet the same is true with anyone in the bible. Confession leads to redemption. Not continuing in lust leads to great revelation. Continuing is a strong word to use. I know in my life I'd "continue" for a while at being screwed up on something... and then time passes, I hear more of the Word, someone may bless me in a certain way... and then I pull out of my nosedive. Can't you see this is more likely way to look at this? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yah, well your not claiming to be the MOG, or are you? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What does PLAF teach? When we sin we're out of fellowship--we're out of alignment and harmony. Until we ask for forgivenss, God is unable to bless us. This includes his spirit moving in us to reveal great revelations. I'd not say "unable" but would say much less efficient. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I beg to differ, that's the exact verbage Saint Vic used in the PLAF, or are you changing it? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I serious doubt Saint Vic ever asked for forgiveness, because, as the "best man not touc a woman," line proves he never thought he was wrong. Your hunches are not supported by what he wrote and spoke on tape. And why did he ask Ralph and Vince to research "adultery" in 1982, years before the John S. Paper was written. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Only Ralph can answer that. And if Saint Vic was so repentant, why did John S. get fired?

No, you need to rid yourself of a few misconceptions you have about my judgement. After those are cleared up you'll be in a better position to see your line of logic.

Does anybody besides me find it amusing that a guy that couldn't master himself gave a teaching exhorting people to master his writings?