So_crates

I'm just not ready to concede that point. I think there are still good people out there with power, at least I hope so. I agree with everything else you say. Including the part where you said VP considered himself entitled to things because of the perceived "good" he did.

BA, I agree. There are good people out there. People who understand the first principle of power: the more you use, the less you have. How does this work? Who has more power? The boss that has to tower over you and make sure you do everything or the boss who tells you to do something, walks away, and knows it'll get done?

By selling themselves out, I mean: intuitively, we know good from bad. Before we do something, our value structure tells us whether we're doing right or wrong. Too many times, I've encountered people who were willing to do wrong in the name of brown-nosing.

One place I worked, a guy would get his boss women. Another place I worked, the boss would get extras from the distributor and not claim them. Another place I worked, the boss would come up short on the budget, so he'd come up with a reason to withhold the employees raise and say they'd be re-evaluated in six months.

Then there are the people who relish firing employees. I worked one place where the boss was bragging about how she fired one employee "with class." She made her clean the whole office, then informed her she was fired.

This doesn't even start into the micromanaging Way people I've encountered, but I think you get the idea.

All these people knew they were doing wrong, but they compromised their values to "get ahead," that is, to get more power.

SoCrates

SoCrates

weird, huh..

well.. "home" very well can't depend on the evaluation of these numbnuts..

Home: I'm not even sure I know what that means anymore, Ham.

I had one clear idea of where I wanted my life to go. Along came Saint Vic and his demented circus. Like a ringmaster, he dared me to step right up to the hoola hoop toss that would be my success. All you need is believing to put the ball through the hoop. Little did I know the game was rigged.

Years later, after I got of his ramshackle tilt-a-whirl called believing, I had to face the fact that the life I wanted may be beyond my ability to achieve my vision for myself.

And that my friend is the danger of running away with the circus. You usually wind up behind the elephants with a super duper pooper scooper.

SoCrates

Consider Craigmeister, he knew how to play the game. Then he got the brass ring and found himself in the situation of a dog having caught a car. As our fearless, chosen leader, he was obviously over his head. From the year I spent in TWI2 and the few teachings I heard from the guy, he had no leadership qualities at all. He always struck me as someone who was threading water.

He was way to reactive to be a leader. Leaders are proactive, that's why they're leaders, they're ahead of the pack. But not the Craigster. The war between good and evil wasn't enough for him, he had to be at war with the world. Then ultimatly his own people.

Sad really.

He should have hit the showers and demoted himself to water boy.

SoCrates

I think its a little like the Peter Principle. Everybody rises to their level of incompetence, but few are willing to admit they've reached their level of incompetence and go back to a level where they are competent.

Same with power. Lets face it guys, you don't rise to the top of the food chain because of your winning smile. The further up the ladder you go, the more you have to sell yourself out; the more you have to compromise your principles.. With that, occassionally comes the chance to do some good, sometimes. Out of this rises that sense of entitlement. I can just hear Saint Vic now: After all the good I've done, I deserve...(fill in whichever vice here).

Though we know what it does, few are willing to give it up in favor of a life of more integrety.

I think Ayn Rand said it best: Honesty is realizing you can't fake reality; integrety is realizing you can't fake yourself.

SoCrates

The idea of God covering for vpw or that some how what happened was ok because of who vp was or what he taught deeply troubles me.

In essence john is saying that God just didn`t give a crap about those who were hurt ...

If it was from God....wouldn`t it have been a safe haven, a refuge for everyone?

Come on....Where was their safe haven? Where was their refuge? Where was the deliverance for these guys?

Why would some have found a safe haven...some find they were disposable??

I think that this is rediculous.

The question we should be addressing here is not did God cover for Saint Vic the Phleabitten. Rather we should be asking, straight out of PFAL, which god would have covered for Saint Vic?

SoCrates

Actually, Johniam's argument narrows to:

SoCrates

so, in other words.. that justifies it all. One soul(?) gets redeemed by the greatness(?) of vic's(?) word and *ministry*(?)..

and that supposedly fixes everything? Or maybe justifies it?

Then why doe Ecc. 9:18 say: Wisdom is better than weapons of war, but one sinner destroyeth much good?

SoCrates

C) It is a little disturbing to be discussing David in the Bible and for someone to keep

imagining we're discussing vpw. vpw was not named in the Bible. He was not around when any part

was written. He was not one of the heroes of the Bible. And yet some people can't talk about

them for a few minutes without trying to say vpw was like them or they were like vpw.

Maybe not Saint Vic, but you must admit Craigmeister slayed the believers with the jawbone of an a$$.

SoCrates

Nice bit of selective reasoning on your part; especially when considering how you think it was wrong for me to mention that Jim Doop may have been involved in the same things. We'll see who's really being "fooled".

Selective reasoning, Johniam? I note your reasoning as being selective. For example, you ignore things you can't answer. I'm still waiting for a response on post #272 of this thread.

Again, "god covered" for Saint Vic. Which god? And if God covered for his wickedness all those years, why not cover for him a little more by healing his ocular cancer and melanoma?

According to the ministry, cancer is a devil's spirit, so why would God cover for someone full of devil's spirits? (A partial list of the devil's spirit's inhabiting Saint Vic is in post #272 of this thread)

"We'll see who's being fooled." Again, speaking from experience, until fairly recent in my history, I kept telling myself the same thing. I used to think everyone else had the wool pulled over their eyes. I can honestly say now, I was the one being fooled. I bought into Saint Vic's demented circus and took all his rickety rides. I now know I should have asked for a refund on my ticket.

I'm sure, however, Ringmaster Rivenbark isn't worried. After all P.T. Barnum said there was one born every minute.

You see Johniam. you may think we're all a joke. But I'm not concerned. You know why? I know something you don't. I know one day you'll be like us.

SoCrates

With all the yarns and tall-tales of wierwille.....how about Paul Bunyan?

Remember when vpw....with one swing of his axe cleared the Way Woods?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clPYfaTvHT0

SoCrates

For those of you still trying to figure Saint Vic the Phleabitten out, take a gander at these links on the relationship between power and corruption.

(link)

(link)

SoCrates

So---- there's old Doc Vic, at the very tip-top of our lift lists, with thousands of people all speaking in tongues for him, using the "Way approved" camera-focus technique, coupled with the infallible "law of believing" that "works for saint and sinner alike". And, yet, it all seems to have been for naught. The old cooter just went right on living his usual life of drunkenness and debauchery. And then, in the end, he just got the life sucked out of him by those pesky old cancer spirits that he warned us to be on the look out for.

What's it all mean?

A thousand voices chanting

apathetically in time

while the epitaph's recited

in an faultless droning rhyme

One of three things:

1. He didn't have the believing he claimed

2. He didn't have the connections he claimed

3. There is no such thing as the law of believing.

I gravitate toward #3. My reasoning has always been: if the law of believing was as important as they made it out to be wouldn't Saint Vic had done more study on it and had manifesting down to a science?

Instead what do you get when you discuss believing? Meaningless analogies and worthless bromides:

1. The camera analogy

2. Your sitting in that chair because of your believing

3. You are where you are today because of your believing, you will be where you will be tomorrow because of you believing.

Nothing to help you understand it to the point of where you can see where you errored and therefore failed. Even the law of attraction set did a more detailed job of explaining how they thought what we were taught was believing worked.

I once asked someone how I could tell if I was believing for something. Their answer: You get it. If you didn't get it you didn't believe enough.

So the only way you know if you have enough believing is by the results. A silly way of measuring things. Can you see waiting until you run out of gas to fill the tank? Or waiting until the pantry is empty to buy more food? Or waiting until your broke to go out and get a job?

There was nothing in the law of believing to provide you with mid-course corrections, it was all black or white.

SoCrates

Does this make God a coconspirator?

See post #272 of this thread.

I'll ask again, according to PFAL, which god?

SoCrates

He probably had the original idea for it but it never went anywhere because YOU didn't see it big enough!

But then of course the devil gave the idea to Al Gore.

SoCrates

I realize this is off-topic, I was just inspired by the talk about the "snow climbing machine".

Yep, more snow from Saint Vic the Phleabitten, patron saint of black snowstorms, plagerist, BS, and Drambuie.

SoCrates

You have all heard, haven't you, that Wierwille claimed that he was the one who originally had the idea for fast food restaurants?

The story is that he shared "the revelation" with some Christian businessmen who didn't have the "believing" to see it through. Then, once it was known in the senses world, the devil took the idea and gave it to one of his men, who I guess would be Ray Kroc. I personally didn't hear Wierwille himself say this. I did hear Martindale say it though in 1975 at Emporia.

What is so amazing about this is that I sat there and went, "Wooooow!" Then again, I was only 18 at the time.

Bet he helped create the internet, too.

SoCrates

In the same vane as Maggie Muggin, Snowball Pete was a 1914 comedy (source)

SoCrates

Wierwille also wanted to make TWI grounds (which had been his parents' farm) into a successful agriculture and fur-raising business. He also had an idea of designing a snow-climbing machine.

Just a point to help clarify.....

Two Family Corps men, Tom K. and Al G., were assigned to this project. Not sure how much wierwille added to this project, but these men were highly talented with extensive backgrounds in hydraulics, welding, engineering, etc.

Officially named the Sno-way........similar to a small snowcat [click here]

Judging by the text, in typical Saint Vic fashion, he took credit for the whole project.

Sno-way. Way. Sno-way. Way. Snooooooooo-way. Way.

SoCrates

The Hierarchy of Paranoia

SoCrates

Wierwille also wanted to make TWI grounds (which had been his parents' farm) into a successful agriculture and fur-raising business. He also had an idea of designing a snow-climbing machine.

Some how it seems fit the "shovel ready" Man of God, should design a snow-climbing machine. He needed something to get over all that snow he was shoveling.

SoCrates

"Reduce vandalism"...two thoughts:

• if TWI didn't make itself so obnixious locally, perhaps it wouldn't have suffered vandalism. It would be interesting to know how much "vandalism" other farms and properties in the same neighborhood suffered
• Formation of a private police force is hardly "bless those that persecute you" or turning the other cheek.

(Maybe property protection was "justified" by protecting the ABS the believers had contributed)

"Grant them access to nationwide police records"...Would this be used against alleged vandals? Probably all of whom were known locally. Or would it have been used against the believers? Knowing the abuse that took place with known information (like "letters of apology" and "Birth to Corps papers", how much worse and controlling would the organization be, if they had access to such sensitive Police information? Nationally? Knowledge of one's own and one's family's past criminal history would be passed off as "revelation" and would be used for fuelling all sorts of "possession" allegations. What a scary thought.

Rather than forming a private police force, maybe Saint Vic should have looked at where his believing was at.

He, like Job, apparently had unbelief which put a gap in that hedge of protection we all prayed so dilegently for for him. This allow negative things to come into his life. (Where is that sarcasm smiley?)

SoCrates

God covered for him as long as He did.

I'll ask you a question from PFAL: "God covered for him as long as he did." which god?

It seems to me a little contrary that God would "cover" for all his sinning, yet not allow him to be ministered to and healed of the ocular cancer and melanoma which eventually killed him

Oddly enough, the ministry claims cancer as a devil's spirit. And where there's one devil's sprit, there's often others. According to Saint Vic, I believe in PFAL, anything you can't control is a devils spirit because God always gives you freedom of will. Shall we ennumerate a few of the devil's spirits, by Saint Vic's definition, he had:

Alcoholism

Sexual Addiction

A BS spirit

Ocular Cancer

Melanoma

Anger (those famous Saint Vic temper tantrums)

And this is just off the top of my head. I'm sure if I wanted to take the time, I could come up with more.

Now why would our God and Father "cover" for a man possessed by devil spirits? People possessed need healing, not being covered for. So again, why was he denied healing?

Putting all this together we have an idea of which god covered for him.

SoCrates

You can’t tell me that every “Christian” in the USA has heard the true Word of God.

(from the SOWERS newsletter, link in post #1)

Did you miss what Craigmiester said? When he suspended the WOW program he said it was because everybody in the world had heard the Word of God. Don't you listen to your own leadership?

Although Martindale then saw the suspension of WOW as an attack by evil devil spirits, by summer of 1995 he recast it as a Way victory. The told Corps grads that the Ambassadors had accomplished their mission of getting God's "Word over the world."

(source)

He might want to rethink the smile however. He reminds me a little too much of a shark eyeing its dinner.

SoCrates

God was not a co conspirator in VP's lifestyle. God is not a co conspirator in sin. Where do you get this garbage?

Ministry logic--it can make a straight line look like a figure eight.

SoCrates