So_crates

For those who feel they never would have heard or known about God and would have committed suicide or been committed to a mental institution, I think God would have reached out by any denomination and you would have been much happier.

I understand TLB doesn't buy the above rationalizations, but there are those that do.

To those who use the above rationalization, consider people like me. Its unlikely I will ever see the inside of a church again. Why? Because the whole Christian doctrine operates on the same principle: faith. Faith they're telling you the truth, faith they're being straight with you.

Over Christmas, my family noticed I was going into a deep depression. Seeing my family surrounded by their families, listening to my mother praying to God and saying she was responsible for all the people there, watching my sister breaking into tears at getting a gift and telling her family how much she loved them. I didn't tell anyone the reason until I got out in the car with my mother. I was sad for all the things I will never experience.

My mother was like, your 55, you can still have kids. Sure. And by the time they'll be adults I'll be 75. Why do it?

Why won't I experience them? Because I put my faith in something presented by a con man and backed up by his minions. How can I be sure the next religion won't be charlitins telling me to have faith in their bull doctrine?

And for those that rationalize that da vey prevented suicides: what of all the suicides it caused? The sadism of the leadership, the lack of compassion, the oppressive doctrine, the threats if you leave. All pretty traumatic things to endure.

Then there's the whole beliving schtick: if you didn't recieve what you belived for, it was a reflection on you, not the faulty doctrine. Nice ripe slice of he!! there. Wonder how many people offed theirselves over that.

This doesn't even touch on the werewolf-forehead thing. How many suicides do you think came out of that. Pregnancies that weren't wanted, people who felt they had let them selves down. I bet they hurt more people than they saved.

Just think of me as the ministy's last angry man.

SoCrates

What about it...excellent point...Twi always operated on double standards...be honest, but don't expect them to be...be faithful, but don't expect them to be...be loving and kind, but don't expect them to be...and as they critiqued their followers, their followers were expected to fall in line and not question them...

...These bastards were cold and calculating...

Another example of where the way falls apart due to its own teaching: Werewolf once said in the class that devil spirits accuse you of doing what they're already doing.

SoCrates

I can dig what your saying about JWs.

When I lived in FL, I went to the local bar to listen to the entertainment. The guy who sat nxt to me was the entertainments father. He was a JW. He told me he would teach me the word like I'd never been taught it before. I told him, "Don't bet on that." (Little did he know one of the people in my building was a JW. The fellow tenent was the biggest gossiper in the whole building) Anyhow, I explained my position and asked why my faith (pistis) failed me. I got a fifteen minute sermon on why something was in the bible, not on something addressing the problem.

Then he told me he had this book he wanted me to read on the names of God or somesuch. Told him I wasn't interested. he told me he'd bring it to me anyway. I told him to save himself the trouble even if he dropped it off I wouldn't read it.

I left wondering if I was that obnoxious when I was witnessing as a WOW. I mean, the guy couldn't care less about me. He was more interested in spreading his doctrine.

Same thing with the neighbor. he wasn't interested in people, only in spreading his doctrine.

For me this is where most religions fail and why the ministry was so effective at sucking us in. Churches could learn a thing or two from werewolf and company. When your wrestling with life your not interested in a sermon, you can get that on any street corner, you want answers, a direction to go in.

Werewolf knew if he feigned compassion people would flock to him. Isn't that why we all got involved in the ministry? The love bomb? They seemed more interested in us than sermonizing? As we all know now they were really more interested in our wallets and who could get who into the sack.

SoCrates

Being the type of person who has always thought outside the box, I came to an important revelation one day.

It happened during my "where did I go wrong and how can I correct it" phase. You know, that period of time just after you tell the ministry to put it where the sun don't shine (unfortunately, that would be the whole ministry--no son shining there). Anyway, I was being approached by just about every sect in creation wanting me to go to their church.

I had devise dthis little test. Like the guy inThe Little Prince. You know he showed them a drawing if the said it was a hat he knew they were full of it, but if they said it was a snake swallowing an elephant he knew they were okay. Well, mine was to tell them my story and ask were I went wrong. If they gave me a 20 minute lecture on doctrine, I politely showed them the door. Needless to say a lot of people know what my door looks like.

The abortion of people presenting me their church came an amuzing piece of wisdom: Whenever your involved with a group, turn the tenents of the group on the group. You'll be shocked the things you'll learn about the group. It uncovers a lot of hypocracy.

Example: The ministry. I've done a lot of that in previous posts. Where were the leaders believing? How giving was the leadership? How forgiving? How much love did they really display? How much of the fruit of the spirit did they show us?

Believing, giving, foriving, love, and fruits of the spirit were all tenents of the ministry.

How much did they obey their own doctrine? Did they act like more than conquerers? Did they have the confidence of realizing them and god were a majority in any situation? Did they act like this world wasn't their home and they were just passing through?

Another little bit of wisdom along these lines comes from W.C. Fields. The comment in the brackets is mine. He once said, If you enter a card game [or any situation for that matter], if you haven't figured out who the patsy is within the first five minutes, your the patsy.

SoCrates

My wife was at the gym few days ago when someone else said merry Christmas to a third person at the gym. Third person got really offended, said "how DARE you say that to me?" Weird.

Yes, even back in the mid 80s one could be reproved by ministry clergy for saying merry Christmas or happy Easter. LCM would say merry Christ is dead! In the 90s he was even mad that the days of the week were all named after pagan things, though. He was apparently going to save Christianity with his stand. Jeez, it's just a positive greeting.

If I said 'break a leg' to someone, does that mean I want them to be injured?

I like the comment someone made satirically: Terrorist say Happy Holidays.

You mean, other that THAT did you enjoy the way.....So_crates?

You have to ask?

Being a person who has dedicated my life to finding the truth, I'm saddened by what this 30 year field trip has done to me, my psychological state, and my spiritual wellbeing.

I go through periods of deep depression. I wonder how God can take someone who has always searched for the truth and present them a whited seplicure like werewolf.

As I've said before: I gave up a lot chasing that carrot. Instead of the carrot, I got the stick. At the end of it all, the guy I terned to teach me the word told me I got tricked. I did. I accept it as my fault. After all I believed it and bought into it. Never again.

I get invited to other churches, but I have no desire to go. Why? Because they base everything they tell you on the same bit da vey did. How do you know they're telling you the truth? Faith.

AS you can see the whole experience has made me very cynical.

Did I enjoy da vey. I think you know the answer.

SoCrates

Yeah, okay, but other than that...

You mean, other than that did you enjoy the play, Mrs. Lincoln?

Here's a question that's been on my mind for ma little while. Its even got to the point where I'm researching it. You think vpw dabbled in the occult?

For evidence I'll offer:

Believing: which is now repackaged as the law of attraction and all the rage. (I've had two girls in Florida tell me it was their religion)

Twig: I've always found it curious that twig was a group of between seven and 12 people. A covenent consists of 13 people.

His heavy us of symbology.

Further, he seem to have extensive knowledge of occult sciences and devil spirits, while he had to plagarize eveyone else for bibical material.

All this could be circumstantial, but it just strikes me as strange. You guys and gals that where in the upper structures of the ministry. See anyting that in retrospect would suggest this?

SoCrates

Hiya

Here's my situation --Ive been driving around and working in the south for a week or so and

its gotten really cold back home (Massachusetts). Im really not in any rush to get back to that if I dont have to, and I really dont have to be anywhere special until Boston on the 19th...So Im enjoying an extended ride at the moment with no specific destination except generally somewhere not way too far afield. Someone wants me to go to Indiana -but ..I dont know--maybe, maybe not,--it can wait.

Im in Savannah Georgia at the moment, a nice enough place but Im in the mood to drive---I like long drives and they are good for my head----anyway, where are you? anyone want to grab a coffee, a meal, or whatever--im open....

Indiana's expecting a blizzard today

What does this mean? Paybacks are H-E-double hockeysticks?

i never had the privilege of the second original sin

it strikes me that i should have figured something was wrong when the big fat mog took me against my will

I'm speechless. Its one of those times I wish I knew the thing to say to make it better, but I know there's no such thing.

SoCrates

My personal opinion. I think a lot of the intellectualization and over explanation was just to fatique the intellect so it would accept anything. A method very common in brainwashing. Overload the intellect, everything sinks right into the unconcious and increases suggestability. Why do you think the classes went on so long?

I find the story about how vp filmed the class amuzing. I was told he filmed it for 24 hours straight, putting ice cubes on his eyes between takes. "Why film for 24 hours straight and risk burning your retinas to a crisp?" I asked. "The days are evil," was the response. And this troops is why werewolf wears glasses. He sacrificed his eyesight to teach the word of God.

Yah, now we know he had ocular cancer and that's why he wore glasses.

SoCrates

socrates did i tell you i really liked your opening post

Thank you. I was just saying what I felt needed to be said and asking questions that had been noodling in the back of my head for a long time.

As to the undisputable position category, the minisrty was full of those.

"You'll go farther faster ABS than not." How would you go about proving that?

"Your stepping on the hose." Again, how would you prove that?

"Obey the man of God, even if he's wrong and you'll be blessed." How would you...you get the idea.

Also, it strikes me we should have figured something was wrong when vpw gave one version of origional sin in the garden of eden, and lcm another. They also differed on the armor of god and AOS.

SoCrates

Yes, Mr, Crates. You're welcome to join in in any game, but it helps to know the rules. I have outlined rules for most of the game threads in a separate thread "pinned" to the top of this forum. I admit, though, that it didn't occur to me that folks would jump somewhere in the middle and just start answering. All the ones back there have already been done. Right now, it's WordWolf's turn to post clues, because he correctly identified the episode. (The actual title isn't necessary, as long as the description uniquely identifies the episode.) If you are the first to identify the series and episode correctly from WW's clue(s), it will be your turn to post the next clue.

George

Sorry, my error. I'll be more cautious next time. Thanks for you understanding

SoCrates

Okay, here's another from the same episode:

"Live long, and prosper."

"I shall do neither, because I have killed my Captain and my friend."

George

That's the one where spock had to go back to his homeworld to get laid

Amok Time

Here's another easy one

"ah, a fair maiden"

"sorry, neither"

That's the one where they went to the planet that craeted things in their minds. Starts with someone seeing Peter Rabbit.

Well, circular logic sets me off, thanks!

(Tips hat to old schoo) You'll love this one. My twig leader was teaching about going before the bema and recieving your rewards. He said that some will get a crown and some will get a trinket. Here's the kicker....wait for it...."And in those first few minutes there will be sorrow."

SoCrates

I am only defing Wayspeak here. I'm not saying I agree. The logic is that if the spirit (small "s") is yours, it can now talk to you because it belongs to you. In fact, it is you, you are a spirit being. God, who is almighty, all powerful, omniscient, and omnipresent is too inept to speak to your flesh because He can only speak to what He is. But He can speak to your spirit. Since your spirit is now yours, it can speak to you, that is your mind.

You see? It's all so simple!

If this is true how did God talk to vp just before vp ordered the snowstorm that never happened?

SoCrates

Well now Gen, that's clear thinking which has no place here so stop it!

This, imo, was one of the hallmarks of TWI. They would take a subject that basically was of no consequence like this one, or "Four Crucified", "The Day Jesus Christ Died", and others, and then dissect the crap out of it. I believe it was an attempt to impress people with how "scholarly" they were as well as how concerned they were with detail. If anyone would question the relevance of the teaching, they would be scoffed at, or accused of not caring about the Truth.

I find that in most religions. Ask them what you did wrong and why your fait failed faith failed and you get a two hour dissertation of what faith means in the bible. I'm thinking of specifically of Jehovah Witnesses back in my where-was-I-wrong days. Me? Save the dissertation, just tell me where I'm in error so I can correct it.

SoCrates

I met the Senator back in the days at TWI when he was meeting with VPW. He's a nice man. He's sincere. I do not agree with him however, especially with his statement that: " Collectivism and atheism go hand-in-hand."

He must have forgotten his time with TWI--collectivist, yet not atheist.

SoCrates

He had hobbies???

Geeze, we were chastised for even suggesting we would like to have hobbies.

Wasting all that time and money that we could be giving to the "ministry", dontcha know?.

(Doing the worst werewolf impression he can muster) Hi, I'm VP, my hobbies are drinking, womanizing and misinterpreting the bible....

My impression of how Walt*r C*ummins and others rationalized VP's wrongdoing is they didn't get specific about it. Once I tried to pin down Walt*r C*ummins about Lamsa. Regarding Eli Eli being wrongly taught by VP, I asked, "What if Doctor was just misled by Lamsa?" I thought if I asked my question this way instead of attacking VP's error straight on, we could talk about it. Wrong. He said, "I believe Dr. Wierwille was more spiritual than any of us." End of conversation.

So if your more spiritual than any of us its okay to blow your nose in the 10 commandments, not to mention what we're instructed to do in the new testament.

Whatever happened to Hays Gahagan? He was supposed to be the believer congressman or senator. I know he was from New England, I think New Hampshire. I also know that a lot of believers from all over the US traveled to New England to campaign for him.

SoCrates

The book also lists his hobbies...hmmmm.

According to Mrs. Wierwille's book, there is a long list of men and women who significantly taught and influenced her husband.....one of the most profound being Rev. B.G. Leonard.

Rev. B. G. Leonard

p. 90

"Ever since the Divine Healing Convention in Tulsa in December 1951, and since Rev. B.G. Leonard prayed with us for Mary's healing over the phone in December 1952, Dr. Wierwille's hunger for more knowledge about God's healing power was piqued. In late winter, February 1953, Dr. Wierwille felt the need to spend time with B.G. Leonard.....

"B.G. Leonard called his work in Calgary 'The Christian Training Centre.' Dr. Wierwille described his first impressions there: "I walked in and B.G. was in the middle of announcements. They must have lasted an hour and a half. Then he took his violin and played hymns for a while. When he finally started preaching, he taught his heart out for another hour and a half. Then everyone left and I sat there. He said, 'I thought I told you that you couldn't come.' And I said, 'Yeah, but I didn't hear you.' "

In June of 1953, four months after Dr. Wierwille's initial trip, our family traveled with two other carloads of our friends to Calgary to take B.G. Leonard's class which he called "The Gifts of the Spirit." At his Christian Training Centre, a large upstairs room over a pawnshop, our son Don and I were students in this class from June 28 to July 15. Dr. Wierwille was with us, but of course, he was not a new student, though he wanted to sit through the class again because what B.G. Leonard was teaching was so thrilling and powerful about the "gifts" of holy spirit and about spiritual healing."

p. 99...."In October 1953, Dr. Wierwille taught the first Power for Abundant Living class, which was held in the basement of St. Peter's Church. The first two classes were called "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today." The name was then changed to the broader title......"

*****

B.G. Leonard and his work were FOUNDATIONAL to wierwille's class setup and emphasis.

(clapping hands moronically) now do lcm, now do lcm

Who are you talking to here ham and So_C? Are you talking directly to me? Or are you talking to well, I don't know who it would be. Your descriptors here, "dares", assorted "scary" thoughts and propositions and other comments about "three stinking months" - not sure what you're trying to say, if it's to me.

I'll try to craft my response appropriately.

I was responding to Ham's comment. I was agreeing eith Ham: if one stops SITting buses continue being late, lovers contiue being untrue, politicians continue to lie, utility companies continue to overcharge and somehow reality continues on its merry way.

Again, if not the minisries purpose, just what does SITting do?

SoCrates

If there is no love here.. we are all.. what is the word.. kinda "screwed"..

just a thought.

:)

Realize it or not, if you where in da vey you were screwed--if not physically-- mentally, spirtually and morally.

Socrates

Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve, details how young wierwille was nearly ready to quit the ministry after just one year in. While in his Paine and Van Wert pastorates, wierwille was searching far and wide for answers. In 1953, after sitting thru Rev. B.G. Leonard's class (twice) in Calgary, Alberta.....vpw rushed home and began signing people up for this "new class" that he, vpw, would teach in October 1953.

After taking Leonard's class....EVERYTHING CHANGED. Wierwille shifted to a class-based ministry, class registrations, teacher-student format, class materials, bookstore operations, subsequent classes, fnd/int/adv classes, etc. Years later, wierwille came up with the name "Power for Abundant Living" class (from J.E. Stiles ??).

Here at GS....thread after thread documents the plagairism that has surrounded wierwille thru the decades. The man's work was not original. Everything from his self-proclaimed "black snowstorm" to his India itinerary to his "law of believing" to his published works.....have been served a strong brew of reality here at The Cafe.

I wonder the class was B.G. Leonard, how much was E.W. Bullinger, and how much he pulled out of his tail

SoCrates