So_crates

How many of those corps/clergy types who left twi....AND WENT TO OFFSHOOTS.....still feed and seed the wierwille fallacy?

I prefer to think of it more as Saint Vic's Folly (definition).

SoCrates

Actually, there was, at one point in The Way's history, what could loosely be defined as a "research dept". There are posters here on GSC who were part of it.

HERE is an interesting article that examines some of the workings of the "research department".

There was one person on this board who wrote an article about their time in the research department. They had commented that the research leaned more toward what Saint Vic said rather than true objective research.

SoCrates

Wierwille studied at Mission House College, University of Chicago Divinity School, and Moody Bible Institute, has a master's degree from Princeton Theological Seminary, and received an honorary doctorate from Pike's Peak Bible Seminary, a reputed degree mill.

This doctrine is a blend of many different ideas. It includes typical denominationalism - salvation entirely by grace; Calvinism - once saved, always saved; dispensationalism - the church began with Paul's epistles; Pentecostalism -tongue and healing are stressed; Unitarianism - the trinity doctrine is contrary to Scripture; and materialism - human beings do not have immortal souls.(9) Members believe in God, the Bible, Jesus Christ, salvation, and eternal life, but define these terms differently from the way we would. For this reason, James Bjornstad, executive director of the Institute of Contemporary Christianity in Oakland, New Jersey, said, "Probably the closest counterfeit to orthodox Christianity we have today is The Way International."(10)

Wierwille also convinces some with his claim of scholarship. He often makes a point of saying, "Now in the Sanskrit it says . . . ." There are no Sanskrit manuscripts, but he uses that language to prove his unique interpretations. To anyone who has no scholastic background, it sounds plausible.

(source)

For a certain time, it was unoffficially taught that extra-marital sex is not sinful but

could actually be protable for spiritual growth. This view was based on the old

Corinthian belief that bodily practices do not aect the spirit of a person. Although

this was never taught publicly, it made adultery an acceptable practice, which again

made The Way more appealing for today's society than traditional churches who

clearly refused any tolerance of sexual misconduct.

(source)

Martindale told his followers at the 1995 Rock of Ages conference that new classes were needed because The Way’s opponents had attended PFAL classes and learned how to use this material against The Way. (The PFAL classes had been open to anyone who paid the $50 fee.) His complaint, however, implies that he realized there were significant errors in PFAL.

One ex-member said the Corps’ residence training was sometimes like a “bordello,” with promiscuity, adultery, orgies, wife swapping, and even gang-rape.

Meanwhile, Way leaders apparently have tried biblically to defend adultery. In opposition, John Schoenheit produced a paper that confronted this error and biblically explained that adultery is a sin. At the time, Schoenheit was on The Way’s research team. His appendices offered reasons Way leaders gave to justify adultery, along with his own rebuttals. Their arguments included: women who traveled with Jesus and Paul supplied them with sex because it satisfied their legitimate needs; men have needs for sex with a variety of women and God provides for this; all things are lawful when done in faith (Rom. 14:21-23); stringent laws are done away with when one is born again (Col. 2:20-21); God punished David for killing Uriah, not for having sex with Bathsheba; and the Bible’s word for “adultery” has a spiritual, not a physical meaning.

(source)

Comments?

Oh!It is because the ministry of reconcilation is not being practiced is why our economy is a mess huh?

Sure,follow me we have the true word,We can put it together for you.Prosper?Whose new house?

Junior go get a real job,sweat like everybody else does to get ahead.The old geezers put you up front

to appeal to the younger crowd.

If its anything, its the opposite. Practicing Way principles got us into this mess. Figure, how many people believed, despite what they were told about a coming real estate crash, that they would be able to flip their house and make a killing? How many believed, in spite of what their eyes told them, that the stock market was only making a correction and would go right back up?

Believing, in spite of the evidence, is what fueled this economic mess.

SoCrates

Wordwolf said in post #260, "You keep depicting this like vpw was going about his business, and discovered Ellen in his office trying to feel HIM up." ("Ellen", of course, is hypothetical).

I would add that even if he HAD found "Ellen" in his office, sexual misconduct would have STILL been a sin on his part constituting instant removal from a position of leadership. With all due respect, I would suggest that this particular scenario started by Johniam is completely and totally irrelevant.

Wordwolf also discusses how Billy Graham resisted temptation. Just to add more insight, Graham mentions in one of his writings that before he would go into his hotel room to retire for the evening, he would have one of his assistants scout out his room to make sure there was no one lurking for him. He took this issue very very seriously.

As per you first paragraph, BA, this is why I keep hitting on the point of victimizing the victimizer and having no concern for the victims. It's as if Johniam's value structure is upside down: Saint Vic (you can see his halo behind his horns) is the victim and all these women temped him, thereby victimizing him.

And even if you could rationalize once (which Saint Vic and Johniam seemed to have done a bang up job of doing) how rationalize the next..and the next...and the next...and the next...ad nauseam. Did it just happen...and just happen...and just happen...and just happen?

Again, Ecc. 9:18: Wisdom is better than weapons of war; but one sinner destroyeth much good.

SoCrates

Ironic, isn't it......a "bible class that teaches one the keys to researching the scriptures" and then, after you finish the course, your twig leader discourages it.

No, no.....don't read Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible"

No, no.....don't go buy research books

REPEAT CUSTOMERS AND FAWNING FOLLOWERS........is the name of the game.

Don't want people to realize the research ministry really didn't do any research. Most of the so-called research was either others work or something pulled out of Saint Vic's tail.

SoCrates

So, Ham? What if your marriage was like this? Doesn't matter if you personally are the good or negative spouse. Your marriage has been dysfunctional like that for years, and you meet a woman you're attracted to and your first impulse is to be discreet, but the more time you spend together, the more it becomes possible that you will have sex with her. And it happens.

This sounds like something you'd hear on the Jerry Springer Show: "We were making out and it just happened."

I always wanted to yell back at the tv: "How did it just happen? He went to get a beer came back nude and fell on top of you while you were also nude?"

I just happens is nothing more than a rationalization.

SoCrates

What's the prayer? Lord, grant me the strength to endure my blessings.

SoCrates

I cast my vote for lower than a pregnant whales stomach on the ocean floor.

SoCrates

No. If he was a regular adulterer. If he used his wife as a cook/maid/occasional concubine and treated all other women as his virtual harem, then he should have some consequences. I'M just saying that he could STILL do the things that a church leader can do. He delegated a lot of responsibility to others. God covered for him as long as He did. People got hurt, but people got blessed, too. Not just me.

Yah, people got blessed so much that they abandoned TWI and they were so incredibly blessed they joined this board to discuss how many blessings Saint Vic bestowed on them.

SoCrates

Did twi/pfal change the world? My belief system says yes, but I'm only one person. Did it change me? Oh, baby.

Before twi I was hurting. Most of it was my own fault. I was using drugs, had no respect for authority, and was unable to succeed at schools, jobs, or relationships. We can all assign blame for things that happened in our past, but if we as individuals don't make any effort to get back on our feet, then it won't happen by itself.

My most critical years in twi began with my wow year. I was held accountable for getting and keeping a job and for making myself presentable to speak the word to a general mix of people. The 8 year period beginning with the wow year really WAS like being in a greenhouse. It was as though I pushed the pause button on my whole life for that time. I needed that. It was a 'climate controlled' environment where I got doctrine, reproof, correction, and most importantly love. Love from God and from people. Then after 8 years I moved back to my home city and gradually I focussed more on my personal life and less on my twi identity.

That's when doors opened to me for jobs, marriage, etc. I didn't expect too much from twi and they didn't expect too much from me. That changed in 1994 and after this became clear, I left.

Finally, the world of Johniam makes sense.

You see, John, you had some gains.

Many of us incurred nothing but losses thanks to Saint Vic. Thanks to him and his doctrine we lost friends, family, jobs, opportunities, spouses, and our cash. Some of us even sacrificed our youth at the alter of Vic the Magnificant MOG.

I think that's what you'll find at the core of most of the conflicts you have here.

To many on this board, its like admiring Chairman Mao. Anita Dunn said he was one of her favorite philosophers. The White House had a Christmas ordiment with his likeness. But most of us are going, what? He slaughtered how many people?

Same with Saint Vic. You feel a statue should be erected in public square in his honor. Most of us on this board are going, what? Look at all the human wreckage he left behind. All the lives he ruined.

Ecclesiastes 9:18: Wisdom is better than weapons of war: but one sinner destroyeth much good. (An interesting sermon on the subject)

SoCrates

They really don't care. It makes absolutely no difference to them..

can't take the time to examine something "negative"..

they really think the old organization, hierarchy and corps "program" was a real "success"..

"ruined" by a *few* "bad men".

the kid lists gramps as one of his heroes..

To bad, they're believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

I often wonder where we get this one-trick pony mindset: If a little is good, more is better, and too much is just right.

Can you just see that board meeting? "Well, Craigmiester's Way went over like a pregnant woman on a pole vault, so what do we do now to boost these sagging returns? I know, we'll revitalize the Old Way--the Tree, LEAD, the Corps, WO-freaking-W. It'll be a peach, a peach I'm telling you."

Wouldn't suprise me if they had a plan in the works to try and resurrect Saint Vic. Probably the highlight of the New ROA--New and Improved, Now With 20% More God.

They just don't want to face the fact that ship has sailed. People have wised up to their little Ponzi scheme. And, of those that never heard of them, if they know how to use a keyboard, they can find out.

SoCrates

The cynical side of me thinks Werewolf intentionally picked the most controversial aspects of Christianity so he could attract the rebellious youth.

Did all his strutting, pontificating, and talking trash about other religons change the world? Sorry, no, but thanks for playing.

The world is the same place its always been, always will be. More people have heard of Joel Olsten than have heard of The Way ("Are they the ones that make the bibles?). Contrary to popular belief, there are no statues being erected to Saint Vic. Life goes on.

I think the biggest change has been in the individual. Hopefully, we've come to realize everybody who comes riding on a white horse and promising paradise means paradise for them. Hopefully, we've become aware we can't let anyone do our thinking for us, that's our responsibility. You can't memorize a book of rules and suddenly you have an answer for every situation. Life's just a tad more complex than that.

Like most revolutions, it started with the best of intentions (on our part) and wound up with the worst of results.

SoCrates

Maybe John's service is more along the line of helps and governments, but I bet VP didn't spend as much time with the honey wagon people as he did with John and his peers.

I bet Saint Vic spent more time with the honeys than with either the honey wagon people or John and his peers.

SoCrates

Research is certainly a good thing, whatever category it's in.

As long as its not plagerism. Or one person's opinion being palmed off as heavy research.

SoCrates

From post #73 of the "A prophet is a hard man to live with" thread:

VPs first love was scripture, the right dividing of God's word. The other stuff fell in his lap. Somewhere along the line he decided that it was OK with God for him to allow 'liberties' in his life that led him astray. That he really thought that sex outside of marriage could be "liberating" as a regular practice.

Speak for yourself. So God refuses to heal? Not mine.

Do you see the apparent contradiction here, Johniam?

If God was going to heal somebody, surely He would heal someone who loved The Word first and rightly divided His Word.

So why didn't God heal Vp of his sexual sickness? Why didn't God heal him of his alcoholism?

Most of all, why didn't he get ministered and healed for the ocular cancer and melanoma that eventually killed him? Couldn't be his believing, in theory he had the believing of Jesus Christ. He had enough believing to take on a ministry given to him by God. So, why didn't God heal him, after all as you say, your God doesn't refuse to heal.

And what do you think Vp did when he couldn't get ministered to and healed of that ocular cancer and melanoma? You think he just said, "God its in your hands," and let it spread through his body. No. I'll lay odds he went to the doctor--that world wisdom he's so good at putting down--and got treated to extend his life as long as possible.

So, before you condemn world wisdom, remember though Vp acted like he despised it, he used it when it was convenient for him.

SoCrates

Funny how all these cult leaders think that women belong to them: "... also claims that Koresh would annul all marriages of couples who joined his cult. He then had exclusive sexual access to the women" including under-age females.

I was reading a book on biology and it mentioned cult leaders and their affinity for the ladies. According to the book, its a biological thing. It said being top dogs, it was their biological responsibility to spread as many of their genes around as they could.

I'm not saying I agree with the position. Just a thought.

SoCrates

quote: Vp avoided prison for his deeds, but, no matter how they appear to overcome, they're in a mental prison for the rest of their life.

Speak for yourself. So God refuses to heal? Not mine.

This is another example of the form of world wisdom we call psychology.

Nice to see I hit a nerve.

So, what's your experience with people who have been molested or raped?

Here's mine: a neice, a fiancee, the 7-year-old daughter of an ex-girlfriend and some friends.

I speak from experience. I've seen what rape and molestation does to people. I've delt with my fiancee's fears and my neice's nightmares. When you narrow it down to real flesh and blood human terms, you realize what true monsters people who rape and molest are.

You don't think his victims are in prison? Vp's worm food, he doesn't have to get up in the morning and face what he did. Unfortunately, his victims have to deal with the consequences of his actions every day of their lives. You can tell me all you want about God healing, but I've seen it in others in a similar situation.

Several years ago, I slashed my thumb open when a plate I was cleaning broke. It healed, however, I still have the scar, and due to nerve damage, there are parts of my thumb that have no feeling. Yes, God heals, but he also gives us scars to remind us not to be so stupid as to do that again. (Or, in this case, let it happen again.)

Write it off as world wisdom. It absolves you of all responsibility to think the matter through. Then you don't have to consider the pain Vp caused. In typical Way Blame the victim style, you can say it was the victims fault because God healed them and they don't believe it. With this attitude you never have to look at the flesh and blood reality of what Vp did and you can still live in your La-la Land. Taking this attitude, you can make Vp sound like the victim and his victims sound like perpetrators.

Your way, the morally superior my God doesn't refuse healing attitude, narrows to nothing more than another way of vicimizing the victimizer and not having concern for the true victims.

SoCrates

VPs first love was scripture, the right dividing of God's word.

This is apparently some definition of "love" and "rightly dividing" I'm not familiar with.

Have you been reading some of the other threads? Vp did nothing, zip, nada, the bagel, to rightly divide the word. Most of his work (I am trying to be kind) was done by others which he palmed off as his.

He however was good at seducing women, drinking, and getting people to worship Vp--which, if I were you, I'd be careful: your love of Vp hedges idoltry.

Again, dude, I see someone who too concerned about how victimized the victimizer is and not concerned enough about the real victims.

Need help guys. Paraphrasing here. Doesn't it say in the Bible "A little bit of evil undoes a lot of good" or something to that effect.

You can tell me how righteous Vp is, but all his evil has undone all his good. Like I told you, by being unrepentant and unremorseful Vp forfieted his forgiveness on earth. By continuing in his ways, even though he knew they were evil, he forfieted any mercy. For most people that would be enough, but not Vp, he saw to it his evil spread in LCM.

SoCrates

sorry, who said this?

i can't help but feeling deeply offended by what happened to me personally as "hype". Another thing -- some or most of what stuff is fabricated or exaggerated? i have tried extremely hard not to fabricate or exaggerate -- so much so that i've never really said everything in a full mouthful -- too afraid and too ashamed

i've been accused before of being an attention seeker, a liar, the patron saint of sexual abuse, and on and on

so i'm offended again by the fabrication and exaggeration thing

i'm sure there might be people here who never even met the man that say things like they knew what happened -- i am not in that category

as far as rewards or thrones -- i don't mean that to be "ugly" -- but that is just ridiculous to me. i'm sorry

Johniam, this is an example of what I was speaking of. See post #224 of this thread.

You should show some compassion for Werewolf's victims, rather then trying to retain the Werewolf legacy.

Ham, keep plugging and chugging dude. It's not your fault somebody has Waybrain and just doesn't get it.

SoCrates

There were more than two, mstar1.

It's just that there were only two who went to law about it.

And not actually for criminal charges of rape, either.

There were. as I understand it, far more victims, women, who for whatever reason and against their better judgment "submitted" to LCM.

W@yne Cl@app had confronted LCM over a period of years about his activities with women.

It's obvious from his MO that he was well practiced. Neither of the assaults you mention was the work of a "beginner."

And also: he learned well at VPW's ... feet. Who's to say he didn't help VPW and is therefore a rapist by procuring women for VPW, too, knowing what VPW would do?

That would also help to explain why he got the MOG mantle, he knew where to many of the ministries skeltons were buried.

SoCrates

I see you found a picture of the shovel ready MOG.

SoCrates

God is the only moral judge. I did not say that there is no good or evil, I just said that you all aren't the judges of such. Not man versus man you're not. You have your opinions. You have criminal and civil law. You have this forum, but you do not have the copyright on what is moral. Isn't that what got us in the soup in twi? Thinking that we had the copyright on truth?

So, Johniam, in this whole discussion about moral superiority, don't you think we're missing the 500 pound gorilla in the room?

Who in all of us thinks he's more moral superior than any of us? Who claimed he was a MOG and acted like God's laws didn't apply to him? Who took a ministry he was entrusted with by God and turned it into his own little swingers club?

You want to talk moral superiority? You don't get much more moral superior than that. Seriously, if you peruse this sight you'll get a better picture of vp as a person who felt he was so much smarter than the average bear he didn't have to obey anybody's laws--God's or man's.

Instead of focusing on how we should be building a statue to the shovel ready man of God, why don't you talk to some of his victims. Tell them how righteous a man he was. Explain to them their ruined lives were the price for moving the Word and how grateful we should be for vp and his moral superiority.

Vp avoided prison for his deeds, but, no matter how they appear to overcome, they're in a mental prison for the rest of their life.

Oh, feel free to ignore this post, it's safer. Talk about moral superiority: I have this belief and I'll ignore all evidence to the contrary because I believe its the right thing to do. Next time you pull the moral superiority card, maybe you should check the mirror.

SoCrates

Gee, here I thought that the one who wrote the book on hidden agenda was.......the devil.

Vp..the devil--same difference. Wait a tick. Werewolf is more evil.

SoCrates