So_crates

what would happen.. gawd forbid.

No speaking in tongues. Verboten.. for at least six months..

what would happen?

scary thought for some..

really what would happen..

da almighty would be forced to go on some kind of vacation..

if my actions dictate what the Almighty has to do with his spare time..

sowy. It's scarey thoughts here..

so what really happens?

I dares you. Spend three months. No speaking in tongues..

will that make you any less spiritual or something?

just three stinking months..

What would happen? Its like the government thretening to shut down if there's no continuing resolution. Wouldn't it be something if everything continued along as if nothing had happened?

SoCrates

Do you know Mabel Marrero? If so, refer her to http://4mabelmarrero.zoomshare.com

Thanks

Socks:

Works to me defines itself.

I drop a ball, it hits the ground. I don't drop a ball expecting it to go into orbit. The law of gravity works. Not only does it work in that context, but also in the context of sending a man to the moon.

The ministry said the word of God worked with a mathamtical accuracy, and a scientific percision (If I had a 1/100 of a penny for everytime I heard that, I'd be buying out Bill Gates). The SIT was suppose to supercharge prayer, fatten up your spirit, which in return produces fruit of the spirit.

It was also supposed to improve that connection between you and God, hence, if prophets were walking with God, they would be SITting, and therefore God would have clue them to some of the neferious goings on. Further, if the prophets were SITting they would know they had truth on their side and have nothing to fear from werewolf. God was his silver bullet.

If I flick a light switch and the light doesn't go on, I don't say well electricity is above my comprehension, so I'll just sit in the dark. I look at the bulb, then the switch, then the circuitry, trying to find the error.

But, then, I've always been a big fan of the scientific method: Thesis, experiment, observation, adjustment.

SoCrates

Skyrider,

Cancer was one of many devil spirits (if we go according to the class) werewolf was possessed by.

Womanizing, I'm sure thats a devil spirit.

Alcoholism, another.

Intimidation, another.

And this is just off the top of my head.

According to the class, anything you can't control is a devils spirit. God gives you freedom of will, the devil doesn't.

So apply their own doctrine to some of the leaders.

SoCrates

To quote werewolf: I'll carry you a step further. If SIT works why were so many of these spiritual heavys wrong. These were the big cheeses in the ministry, supposedly knowing the meat of the word and SITting like houses on fire. Further, where was word of wisdom and word of knowledge when all the vpw-lcm crap was going on?

Where were the spiritual heavys--the prophets who are supposed to put the man of God or the king back on track. The silence is deafening.

They were afraid to speak? People who tell underlings "God and you are a majority in any situation" or "You are more than a conquerer through Him that loved you"?

Also, isn't meekness one of the fruits of the spirit SIT is supposed to produce? So where was the meekness. One of the posts here tells the story of a friend (a researcher) approaching RR With where they strayed. She told him: "I know the bible." And promptly fired him. (Guess RR also means railroad.) Its practacly legendary that you questioned werewolf and he sent you packing.

My time with the ministry is like climbing this huge mountain of bs to get to one rose at the top and when you reach it and cradle that rose in your hand. You realize you've lost your sense of smell

SoCrates

Ye[/i]How'd you figure that out? I'm really curious is all. Did you actually experience that you didn't think hmmm thoughts, when doing it, at the same time, or that your thinking ability or processes were impeded or degraded by doing so? Were there long periods of one or the other where one somehow cancelled or prevented the other?

The "work to the Way's" advantage comment I have read from time to time on GS but I don't see how, frankly.

That little voice in my head can't SIT and say "Danger Will Robinson , danger" atthe same time.

Werewolf himself said you can't hold two thoughts in your head at the same time. If your busy SITting you shut off the judgement ability of your brain. No red lights going off when your twig leader (who's supposed to be recieving revelation from God) falsly accuses you of shoving a $20 into the horn of plenty thereby proving your not a cheerful player (abundant life? bxzzzzz! Thanks for playing. No mental sirens go off when thge upper tree (including the redwood himself, vp) start harping on all the "rumors circulating about the ministry (well, proven again, where there's smoke, theres fire--probably why its a cliche).Werewolf: "And the things they say I do at night with the money I get from you (wolf whistles).

Many of us saw the red flags, but they're only apparent in retrospect. I wonder if this wasn't in part due to the fact our brain was busy with other thing.

SoCrates

I may not be capable of providing a quote, you know, search engines, effort, best left for someone younger...BUT..

My pet peeve, was the "spiritual rewards" stuff. TWI felt to me to be a hotbed of bible quotations by others to me with scripture and verse (reproof and correction), motivated by the bearers belief/conviction that "spiritual rewards" were to follow. Top that off with the concept of "mental assent" and viola...you don't have a conversation or education, you have intimidation..an environment of pure knowledge/wisdom.correctness, being given to the receiver as if the scripture was going to save my life someday.

So where are these individuals today, the Corp Grads that supposed made a lifetime committment to "Christian Service"? I am here, where are they?

I know my twig leader was deep into spiritual rewards.

I never was one to buy into it. My thought, God has foreknowledge, therefore He knows what I'm going to do, therefore my rewards are already decided.

I had one time--when I was going through my what did I do wrong, where is this abundant life phase--where I talked to a local business man. "Don't worry," he said, "you'll get it all back when your in heaven."

My hackles raised. "Hey, good idea," I told him. "Why don't you give your product away. Don't worry, you'll get it all back in heaven."

To me that's the evil of the whole rewards schtick. So they have you chasing this carrot and are saying don't worry you'll get it back in heaven. They're covered. Nobody's going to come back from the dead and say, "Guys it was all a scam."

Think about it. What businessman would base his business on riches he'll get after he dies?

SoCrates

I always thought Toad in the Hole was this - which also goes by "egg in a basket, Moon over Miami and Bulls Eye."

Its also know as Adam and Eve on a raft

So-C, There's no real argument over the speaking in tongues. We can argue about it I suppose but it's not of any real consequence to anyone else whether I or they or anyone does or doesn't. So why argue? Because someone else's card had to be punched that month to get someone else to manifest? We all grow up and if need be, away from the influences that inhibit growth, for ourselves.

If it's just thought and inclination it doesn't require the Thought Police to make a sweep and keep everyone else from the privacy of their own choices, which are in fact their own choices. If it's an act of worship and prayer, desecration without cause might produce some surprise results.

Wassup johhiam? :)

I agree its up to the individual to decide. It can't be proven one way or the other. What people do on their own is none of my business. But, when they involve me, then I have something to say about it.

If people want to have faith in unicorns or pots of gold at the end of rainbows I don't care. Just don't try and ram it down my throat.

One of the things I've learned from science is we have a belief engine. To put it simply: the rabbit that believes the grass moving is a wolf lives to carry on their genes. The rabbit that hangs around to see if it truely is a wolf has a lesser chance of carrying on its genes. So our brain is hardwired to believe things without proof.

Do I SIT? Not anymore, haven't in years. I've found it shuts off my ability to think. Seems you can't think and SIT at the same time. Which, oddly, worked to da vey's advantage.

SoCrates

I dunno. It's kinda like finding out your spouse has been cheating on you for years. Does that make YOU a bad person? I don't think so. It just means you put your trust in an unworthy dipstick. (You know he wasn't really a "Dr.", don't you?)

Yah, I heard he got his degree from a diploma mill of some sort. You gotta give him some credit, he created quite a mythology for himself.

If a really stupid person went senile would anybody notice?

You think this was God's first attempt at creating a universe? (Sure seems that way some days doesn't it?)

If there's a pot of gold on one end of a rainbow, what's on the other? (a mad leprechaun with a .357, so be careful when you make your decision.)

Why do we drive in a parkway and park in a driveway?

If pro is the opposite of con is congress the opposite of progress?

Who was Casper the Friendly Ghost before he died?

What was Captain hooks name before he had his hand amputated?

Just wondering

Gen---There's no I in team, but there is an ME.

SoCrates

George Bush called Dick Cheney. "Dick, can you help me I'm having an awful time with this puzzle."

"Puzzle? What are you doing a puzzle for?"

"You told me to keep myself occupied.

Cheney sighs. "Okay what kind of puzzle is it?

"It's a jigsaw puzzle of a big old rooster. I can't get any of the pieces to fit together."

Cheney tells him he'll be there in a minute. Upon arriving at the oval office, Cheney surveys the scene. "George, put the cornflakes back in the box."

And lest anyone think I favor one party:

A horse walks into a bar. Bartender says why the long face.

Johm Kerry walks into the same bar. The bartender thinks, Can I use the same joke twice?

One man walked into a bar--the other ducked.

I believe in the two party system: a party in the morning and a party at night

SoCrates

I know. I know. There are those that think Werewolf is the greatest thing since the Garden of Eden and then there are those who think Werewolf should be tossed in the lake of fire.

Those rating him high need to see the point of view of the other side. Many of the people that slam him feel betrayed. We feel betrayed because we gave our lives to someone that lied through his teeth and had the stones to be hypocritical about it.

Yah, I know, your thinking to yourself someday I'll see. I was in that encampment, too--up until pretty recently in my history. The Ministry's been a part of my being since I was inmy early 20s. Now I'm in my mid 50s. Have I seen that wonderful life God has planned for me? No. Remember I gave up everything I could have been. Like Twinks, I gave up my career, my opportunity to raise a family, my productive years. All based on that promise: Wait until you see the life God has planned for you. In the early hours of the morning, when I'm still half asleep, I still occasionally grumble where is it?

When I'm fully awake I look at what I gave it up for and I don't like the answers:

--Believing: I've wrote extensively on this in other posts. I'll just add: When all these mini-vps and mini-lcms were flying off the handle at dwindling ABS and fellowship members, did they ever look at their believing?

--The Abundant Life: A scam. When I was a WOW our branch leader gave a teaching explaining the abundant life was life with the manifestations. So if your starving and can SIT you have the abundant life. Compare this to the abundant life werewolf and his cronies were living.

When I lost my professional job and was unable to find another, my twig leader told me: "God does.t care what you do." But I do, I told him. How can I proclaim what God has done for me when I'm working an entry level job making minimum wage. Of course, the sad truth is he didn't care, he had his career.

--Love: Another scam. Doctor himself said love is doing the Word--which by extension is whatever he says.

The further question begs itself: Where does a person who can't control himself get the right to tell me how to control myself? These are best seen in VPs attitude toward smoking. I remember him saying (in the class?) if God had ment for us to smoke he would have turned our nose upside down and made it a chimney, yet he could smoke like a house on fire (SIT cigarettes?) Equally disturbing is his stand on sex.

--Manifestations: Another scam. Where were word of wisdom and word of knowledge when vpw and lcm were turning the ministry into their own private harem?

Further when lcm was going far a field where were the gift ministries? Isn't it the prophets spiritual responsibility to get the MOG back on track? Don't give me the excuse he wouldn't listen. Check out you Old Testement: Somehow those prophets managed to return the MOG to God.

For years after I left the ministry, I searched for an answer to where I went wrong. Finally, I reached the point where I realized it wasn't me it was the doctrine.

However, my experience wasn't all bad: I can hold my own when Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses come knocking at my door.

SoCrates

Happy Household Holiday.........to all those who still worship at the altar of twi's "household."

So does that make it a household tree? household carols? The Household Islands? OMG, what happens to Santa Claus, IN!!? (shutter) (shutter)

SoCrates

I've been leafing through the VPW/SIT file. I found one post that states there are people here who bash Veepee and there are people who will defend him. Christians present: Christ told us you can tell a tree by it sfruit. What's da vay's fruit? PI (private interpretation), hypocracy, authoritarianism, and many many injured souls. What's Doctor's fruit? Plagiarism, womanizing and lcm.

'Nuff Said

SoCrates

There will be no gnashing of teeth on my end. I like my teeth.

Like the minister who taught about the end times and said there will be a great wailing and gnashing--I say gnashing of teeth.

A little old lady in the front row chimed in: "What if you have no teeth?"

"Teeth will be provided."

"Lo shanta, ala ma seeta...etc. Gosh, I hope I didn't spell anything wrong in that last sentence.

Get out the spellcheck

SoCrates

I've been reading post in this thread arguing whether leadership faked SIT or not. But there's a bigger issue at hand: whether they did or not, how would we know? Dig, their pretty much cover by the tongue of men or angel thing. The can take any language but English and claim that was their tongue, on the other side, if they were too lazy to take a forgiegn language class, they could spout gibberish and chalk it up to an angels tongue. We wouldn't know one way or the other.

Its kind of like how they taught the bible. Anybody who's been in an English Department at a university knows what they're doing. That's why there' so many thesises (thesi?) on what the white whale means in Moby Dick. I've always asserted the only one who knows what the white whale is is Melville and if you asked him he'd probably tell you it sounded good.

The only way to know whether we were really taught the true bible (Doing a lousy Veepee impression: The one holy men of god spoke of as they were moved by the Holy Ghost) is to be fluent in ancient Greek, fluent in ancient Hebrew, have access to ancient manuscripts, know all orientalisms, yadda yadda yadda...yadda yadda.

That's why, have you ever notice, all veepee's radical notions are in the origional Greek? Who's going to challange it? He biases the interpretation by teaching his interpreters the same flaws. Nobody under him dared say a word.

Terry Prichertt in Hogsfather speaks of why kids are taught about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. "WE have to believe the little lies before we can believe the big ones."

"The big ones?"

"Ground this whole universe to atoms, I dare you to show me within that mess, one atom of freedom, one molecule of love."

Maybe we have to believe nonsense syllables are handed down from on high so we can believe there's a cosmic Santa Claus just wait for us to believe so he can fulfill our wishes like a vending machine, or so we can believe a person who can get amazing revelation from God is the same person who hasn't the self control to keep his hands to himself and be true to his wife

For all we know SIT really did die with the apostles.

SoCrates

It sure mustve been remarkable :blink:

In the OT when "God spoke" via prophecy people had no problem remembering it for 30 , 40 or 50 years before they wrote it down down.

Not horribly remarkable. They didn't have rock videos and 30 second commercials then. Their attention spans were longer than a ferret having a double expresso.

SoCrates

Sometimes I think we were just so used to hearing certain phrases and reading certain verses in the Bible that it all became rote. It definitely wasn't inspiring most of the time.

Then there were the stories the ministry cirulated about SIT. You've probably heard them: teh guy who SITed in his sleep; somebody would speak in tongues and an audience member would recognize the language.

Fact or Benny Hinn fiction?

You make the call

SoCrates

They thought they would be reproved for not believing to get the door open. So they kept trying.

More hypocracy. When the twig leader started reprimanding me for not ABS, I a about two seconds when I was temped to tell him: "Your not getting my ABS because your not believing for it." I decided however it wouldn't help the situation and shut up.

Out of this of course comes a good question: Here you have all these ordained by God folk teaching us, the unwashed masses, about believing. Yet when the Ministry started to tank, did any of these people who knew all the answers (usually cenered around believing) bother to look at their believing?

I read a comment on the law of attraction (beliving reinvented, check The Secret. Its deja vu all over again.). To translate it into wayspeak: Doctor said what we look at we become. What we focus on happens. If that were true we'd all be girls. After all what does a 13-year-old boy think about the most?

SoCrates

Remember those loud sweaters that LCM wore?

Well, they made it to "The People of Wal-Mart"

Give the guy a break. He probably figured if somebody vomitted all over him because of that garbage he spewed out, well in a shirt like that nobody would notice.

SoCrates

How about a Greasespot Cafe Theme Song? I have two nominations:

Second Nomination

SoCrates

Jeez there are so many.

"That's right!"

"Fits like a hand in a glove"

"Let go and let God"

"Two-thirds of God is go"

"Mark it in your bibles."

SoCrates

"A mathmatical exactness and a scientific percision"

The Shrine

Why ain't I disappointed?