chockfull

Vern still has his bronze “Teacher” statue on his desk helping him with how to be a great minister.  His first act was marking and avoiding Moynihan, thus preserving the monarchy approach to leading over the democracy approach offered.

Yes it’s still same evil with new names and face.

Peace out.

Just visiting one more time to say I’m modifying my original premise.  Yes Christian posters are tolerated here.

But after  completely dishonest exchange with RAF who you can see his vomit all over this post including evaluating other posters like he has any real authority at all, I will just state I will never participate again on this site as long as RAF is a mod.

The only other mod is his buddy who protects him.  
 

RAF also sent a personal F off message complete with how he feels privately and I’m not permitted to post it here so his true colors remain hidden.

Sorry to all still in the Way cult sorry to those who could still be helped sorry to all other posters.  
 

I am way past my dealings with cults to accept an unlevel playing field for discussion so I’m leaving.

Yes RAF chased off more than one person from this site which should objectively end his mod run but it doesn’t.

so add 1 to your body count while you take your Pulitzer and shove it up ur where sun doesn’t shine.

All I have had a good time over close to 20 years posting on this site.  I have worked through plenty of cult recovery.  I have called out all of the areas in the BITE model where TWI enslaved people.

It has now come to the point where I feel that a Christian viewpoint is no longer welcome on Greasespot Cafe.  It is fine to me if people in working through the trauma of the cult operation leave Christianity.

However it is not fine to them that I remain Christian.  I cannot call out faulty logic without moderation and hypocrisy with leaving the posts attacking Christianity unaltered but removing the Christian perspective posts.

So for that reason this will be my last post on this site.  Those of you that have my email please reach out.

Best wishes in your lives developing a post TWI healthy life logic and development.

3 hours ago, Raf said:

I try to discourage turning against God for emotional reasons, as much as I sympathize. A faith that is lost in emotion can be regained in emotion.

That's not to invalidate your journey. And I'm proud of you for thinking it through instead of just being angry at or disappointed in God. When it came to my autistic son, I realized "it's not God's fault." God is not to blame for my son's autism, my sister's ALS, my brother's lethal drug abuse, my other sister's cancer. And he's not going to heal or deliver them for the same reason. Non-existent people tend not to accomplish much.

My wife and I foster kids in need. Last year we adopted one. She's a delight.

People keep telling us we're doing God's work. My response is always the same: Who else is going to do it?

It's an inside joke based on something Penn Jillette once said: We have to do God's work, because God knows He won't.

I'm honored to have helped you realize you're not alone.

 

 

An atheist who does Gods work.  Ok.

With your lack of blame towards God for relatives sickness and realization there is no instantaneous healing on the way that is no different than how I view the world.

I had a relative die of MS.  Just saw his widow.  He was supposedly healed of MS by someone praying years ago.  Did that happen?  Or did it just go into remission for 20 years?  I don’t know.  I don’t know why I never thought to blame God or pray for miracles.  I’m mostly conditioned I guess to pray but keep your own gunpowder dry and your gun clean.

13 hours ago, TLC said:

I disagree.  I think it’s intended to show that Abraham believed God could and would raise his son from the dead, which is the crux of Christianity.  Matter of fact, I think he was the first to ever really believe that… which is a large part (if not the sum and substance) of why Abraham is called the father of all them that believe.

Seems there are probably a lot of people who think (and call) themselves Christian (either currently, or perhaps in times past), but aren’t really “in Christ” nor are the actually a member in the body of Christ… because in their heart they never did truly and honestly believe that God really did raise Christ from the dead.

Furthermore, I don’t think speaking in tongues (or what some  pass off as that) is “proof” that someone believes God raised Chiat from the dead.

 

Hey TLC

So I differ on the Abraham reading.  What I pick up is he misunderstood the idea of sacrifice, meaning to give up something of your own for the greater good of all.  He read the common reading which was executing and burning on an altar an animal to consumption outside the tithe given to the Levites which they ate.  Other cultures also sacrificed animals to their gods in this fashion.

The idea of being raised from the dead was probably a foretelling in stars or a couple prophecies but not likely to be mistaken IMO.

Regading your idea of “true Christian” or not I think that is up to the Lord to decide and not me to judge.

I agree with you on the common phenomenon of glossallalia is not proof that someone believes God raised Christ from the dead that is more of VPs illogic.

Peace.

7 hours ago, Charity said:

It took a simple google search to check something vpw wrote and find out he was wrong. 

He said, "Had this been God's will, as Abraham thought it was, there never would have been an angel needed to suddenly terminate the action because God cannot contradict Himself, He cannot change His will."  However, in Jonah 3, it says

1 And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying, 2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee. 4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

God changes his will again in 1 Kings 21:17-29 and Numbers 14:11-20.

~~~~~~~~

Also, after messing up the meaning of Genesis 22 which clearly speaks of a burnt offering, he ends the chapter by bringing us into the story via Romans 12:1-2.

"What good are we to God as dead sacrifices? He needs us as living, active sons to be faithful and carry out this work, totally committed to Him until death. By living according to God's Word, we are proved by Him and are "burnt offerings."

Considering how vpw required his "kids" in the corps to be faithful and carry out the work of his ministry, totally committed to him unto death, his final words now fall far short of being inspirational.

So I did see the website you posted that duplicated VPW work on Abraham and Isaac.

I completely do not agree with your logic or necessarily VPs direct statement that God can’t change His will.  Anyone can change their will.  All they need is a lawyer .  Ba dump tish.

The point being an angel intervened to save the kid.  The angel was a sent messenger from God.  So if a direct sent messenger corrects your understanding of Gods Will then it’s pretty clear that killing the kid was not Gods intent or will.

In Jonah God literally changed his will because they repented.  It literally says it right in the verse you quoted.  But you are so busy attacking VP - mostly justly I would add - that you missed the logic right there.

No it’s not a good catch it is spreading a virus for logic.

Regarding your last paragraph summarizing VP I am 100 percent with you on that- he was a sociopath cult leader that twisted scripture for his own gratification and enrichment and the impact on all his “burnt offerings” is horrible.

This account to me shows the blend of inspiration and getting it twisted up with natural reasoning leading Abraham to a pretty dark place.

To me it shows even more how faith is necessary to correctly get the scripture intent and not add in barbaric human additional practices which always enslave.

6 hours ago, Raf said:

Couple of points.

First, I would seriously not brag about being in that company.

Second, that I chased DWBH off the site is a slanderous lie. That you believe your so-called insider information WITHOUT HAVING DISCUSSED IT WITH ME speaks volumes about your fact-finding efforts. Had you one OUNCE of decency and fairness, you would have contacted me for my side of the story. You never did. You judged me on the word of a man who has chased every close friend out of his life with his increasingly unhinged behavior.

But you never even ASKED for my side of the story.

Why don't you ask oldiesman how DWBH treated him before I had to step in?

Because that would be fair and that's the last thing you want.

Has OS seen any meaningful eclipses lately? What did they mean? Before you go trusting his lying-foot word about what happened on GSC, why don't you check out his reliability? 

Better yet, I defy you to find a single example of me shutting OS down over an issue of faith. One. ONE.

You won't be able to because it never happened.

Of course you know skyrider stopped posting because he died. DIDN'T STOP YOU FROM DISHONESTLY BLAMING ME FOR HIS ABSENCE THOUGH, DID IT?

 

When you get mad you twist things up.  I know much more about DWBH then I have ever discussed here and have conversed with him outside here.  You’ve accused him of libel now publicly here on this thread.  Was this something he was charged with or convicted of?  Because there are those type of things.  

I did not blame you for sky dying and not posting here.  I’m sad he’s gone for sure as he was a fantastic brother and great person personally.  One more twisted statement from you.

OS is happy doing his thing I guess.  He 100 percent posted on here his departure and reasons being as a Christian not having that view welcome.  Whatever.  I’m not a private investigator but optics matter.  You didn’t seem to vehemently defend yourself to him as he was leaving like you are now.  Whatever.

And lastly yes I am 100 percent f ing lunatic because now I’m going to remind you of PFAL collateral volume 3 entitled Of Human Sacrifice.

Read it again.  Or not.  It might explain a little Abraham and Isaac and might give a clue to a blend of inspiration and people thinking God told them something.

On 5/16/2024 at 10:03 AM, Raf said:

Clearly I killed skyrider.

OS is perfectly welcome to post. He is not welcome to LIE. 

DWBH used this site to libel people. He proceeded to harass me on various social media sites in an effort to defame me before my friends, colleagues and peers. I DARE you talk to him personally about his relationship with me and why we're no longer on speaking terms. Bring a tape recorder.

You called me a dog and got mad at MY vitriol? Please.

GET
YOURSELF

Once again, people are perfectly welcome to post all sorts of views about all sorts of things. What you want is not equal treatment, but privilege. You want to be able to call us arrogant and dogs and closed-minded and biased [and I see now that you have decided to escalate the name-calling], and you want us to not respond.

You and I had it out, we made our peace, and that was that. But for some reason this thread has you gobsmacked to the point where you can't disagree with Charity or with me without being personal about it, calling us names and accusing us of lacking your open-mindedness (which is not open-minded at all).

This is not how people with evidence on their side behave. This is how one behaves when one has lost a debate centered on ideas but still wants to appear to have some standing.

Like I said, I asked the other mods to have a look so that I am not moderating myself.

What an idiotic statement.  Of course I know sky passed and that is why he no longer posts here.  OS stopped due to anti Christian bias and perceived moderation in that direction whatever your story is.  I can ask him if you want.

Yes DWBH quit posting here over a conflict with you I’ve spoken with him outside of here.  Your side of the story shows how hot the argument got.  The edit to my post was unnecessary I never said he was banned.  I do think I remember a temp ban but won’t stick on that point.  Still in the history of this site he has posted the most relevant insider knowledge of anyone here.  And you chased him off.  This is fact not opinion so deal with it.  I’m on up there in that list too with insider information.  As is OS.  And look where we are with you.

The dog in a manger statement is a simile.  It is describing your behavior of barking at people who believe scripture contains inspiration.  You know figurative language?  Oh wait you don’t know what that is.

That is why you guys can’t figure out Abraham and Isaac even though TWI taught you God didn’t ask him to kill his kid.  I mean Mikey would be here to point out what collateral that is in.  He’s gone too.  Maybe that’s my fault who knows.

You are stuck on fundamentalism.  This to me shows the true anti Christ nature of TWI.  For a large part the cult teachings are so strong people need to depart from all of Christianity to deal with it.

Deal with it however you want.  This site is losing relevance and interest to me.

I believe there are 2 categories of knowledge in scripture - natural reasoning knowledge and spiritual inspiration knowledge.

The Bible contains many strange OT accounts.  No stranger than other history books who discuss the same killing and war and atrocity.  People in the OT crafted a golden calf idol after a very short time absent Moses direction.

TWI leadership crafted a similar image of VPW.  So peoples behavior in the NT with all the extras available supposedly from scripture don’t seem all that more advanced from the OT.

Many of the remaining Christian posters have grown silent over time.  Read into that what you will.

On 5/12/2024 at 2:18 PM, Charity said:

I just finished quickly reading through a prophecy given by an old poster on this forum.  I am sharing his website if anyone is interested in reading it.  On it, there is also a link for his YouTube channel where he reads the prophecy.

https://www.eyesupandopen.org/index.php/prophecies-from-jesus-christ/sinners-come-to-me-in-this-last-time

Why am I sharing it?  Because it shows how two Christians, who became close online friends over the past year and a half ago, went in two extreme opposite directions within the past two months - me deciding to walk away from Christianity and him starting to share his fundamentalist prophecies online. 

I'm pretty sure most on this thread will reject this all-or-nothing way of thinking.  So what is left?  How does one decide for themselves which parts are allegories, fiction, myths, hyperboles, etc. and still believe the Bible is God's word? 

As it was pointed out to me in Revelation 3:15-22, being lukewarm is not pleasing unto the Lord. 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah I do not concur with OS direction and agree that it is extreme.  I’m happy for him in his personal life though.

For me to answer the “what is left” question, and to key off the video making fun of people playing with toys, what I find useful is a child like believing mindset and looking for inspiration not consistency or accuracy as what I am reading is a blend of man and God writing.  I mean writing by inspiration while seeing through a glass darkly.  Or something similar.

Have you ever considered that the lukewarm bit in Revelation might be in the midst of a war with extreme circumstances?  I think I even read in a fictional work about Revelation an idea about every believer being martyred for confessing Jesus Christ as their Lord.

I don’t find that verse to be a reason to become a zealot.

How one decides which part is inspiration is a personal journey.  It is to me called faith this personal journey.

But if some jack@$$ wants to describe it as me being a kid playing with toys by myself and he’s ok with it then good.  I’m glad he’s happy with himself being funny and condescending to others beliefs.  It just makes him a jack@$$ atheist with a mic.

On 5/14/2024 at 12:51 PM, Raf said:

 

 

The pot here is having a delightful conversation with the kettle. You see, when I disagree with you, it's because of my sh-t-colored bias. But when I agree it's because I've opened my mind to the possibilities of what Scripture really means underneath those pesky little words it actually uses.

I'm curious to know what color glasses you wear when you approach the Book of Mormon and the Q'uran. 

Since you've established in this post and several that precede it that this kind of tone is fair game, I would like to point out that this one sentence (well, comma splice, anyway) may well be the stupidest, most refutable piece of dung you've ever written on this site, and that's saying a lot. [Sorry: YOU brought dung into the conversation as an acceptable reference to my point of view, so it's only fair]. 

Of course, there IS a cosmology in Genesis 1 that is actually laid out in Genesis 1. Had you taken a deeper look into the history of the Semitic people and the ancient Canaanites, you would see quite clearly that Genesis 1 reflects an actual ancient belief about what people once thought the universe looked like. Of course, you can't DO that without some degree of humility and acknowledgment of the possibility that you MIGHT be WRONG about something, so I wouldn't expect you to undertake this honest kind of inquiry that you have labeled "poop" to absolve yourself of the responsibility to read a f-ing book or two.

The ONLY reason those elements are considered symbolic today is that they have been disproven literally. There is no indication that the writers [plural: there was more than one and likely none of them were named Moses] meant anything other than what they said: that the sky is a giant glass wall holding back an ocean above us, and that there are windows in that wall that were opened to create the flood in Noah's day. 

It would be delusional to say he was mentally abusing children. But to say someone made up all the stories? Of COURSE someone made up those stories! They're preposterous. But if YOU want to say the stories are TRUE, then it is incumbent on you to document the historicity of each account. You can't even tell me who wrote which gospel! Now, you can call it "delusional" to believe the stories are all made up, but you do that while at the same time dismissing all the miracles of the Q'uran and the Book of Mormon as delusional, and you do so without even making room for the faintest of possibilities that they might be a "record" of something that actually happened.

Funny how that works. It's okay to be dismissive of the miracle stories of other holy books, but not of your own. It's almost like, what's the word Jesus [allegedly] used all the time? Hypocrisy?

That is LITERALLY what you are doing. You say these stories are true unless we prove them wrong, absolving yourself again of the responsibility in dialectics to prove the affirmative claims you are making. Meanwhile, again, you ignore "probabilities of any kind" that you are wrong to dismiss the miracle claims of other religions. Why is it okay for you to do that to every other religion but it's not okay for us to do that to yours?

Yes, but the Epic of Gilgamesh does not hold itself to be the Word of God, and its history is not put forth as a real accounting of events. Also, Spider-Man does not live, even though his comics say he lives in New York City. The fact that a story is placed in a real place, even at a real time, and its characters interact with real people, does not make the story true. Gilgamesh is fiction and never intended to be treated otherwise.

Genesis didn't become symbolism until skepticism exposed it as ahistorical.

Ok,, number one, the f'ing namecalling has to stop. I let you get away with it before and I regret it. Second, we LITERALLY do not believe we are the center of the universe. You have us confused with Christians, who actually believe the purpose of the universe is earth, the purpose of the earth is life, the purpose of life is man and the purpose of man is God. Actual Chrisitan dogma. The flipping NERVE to accuse us of that which you do!

The second stupidest thing you've written in this post, but probably only fourth or fifth stupidest overall on GSC.

So it's my responsibility to accept that you are right, period, shut up. Right? Because that's what you are actually saying. "Shut up and accept my views or, if you don't, YOU'RE arrogant." 

GET
YOURSELF

 

I refer you to the previous thread: Religion has a vaccine for the Reason virus.

This is magical thinking, not reason. The whole POINT of using WORDS as the means of communication is reason, our ability to discern meaning from words. The ARROGANCE to suggest that because YOU have a proper attitude toward a Creator while the rest of us have a "bias to tear down everything!"

The GALL. I have news for you. It's not your humility to the Creator that allows you to excuse away any honest examination of scripture. It's your gullibility. 

The amount of projecting going on with that statement... there isn't that much projecting at Cannes.

Literally not my problem. And you’re the only one having trouble following logic here. 

Reported as namecalling. Knock it the hell off.

Jesus called out the hypocrisy of people who had a surface understanding of scripture but refused to look deeper. I'm just saying, if there are Pharisees in this conversation, it's not the people saying "do what Jesus did: look closer."

To me there is absolute gullibility and a nearly psychopathic desire to accept any explanation under the sun as long as it means not having to admit that you are wrong in how you are presenting your arguments for taking Scripture at your word instead of reading it in context and learning a bit more about the history of the people who produced it.

 

You seem to have us confused with Christians again. I think the scripture intends to say what it actually says. God may not have a purpose for every adjective, but writers do. And when you eliminate “perfection” as a goal of the writer, the bottom line is that they choose words for reasons. Had they meant to say the sky was an “expanse,” they would have. They said it’s a firmament because that’s what they thought. They were wrong. End of story, unless you think God was the Author and He meant something deeper. He wasn’t and He didn’t.

There is such a thing as an "anti-fundamentalist bias," a rejection of a thought or idea because that thought or idea is held by fundamentalists. The idea that the Bible is anti-gay is a fundamentalist bias. It’s also pretty dead-on accurate, isn’t it. That the scripture can be read and understood because of the words it uses, that's fundamentalist. It's also completely consistent with reason and scripture. But the idea that "I don't like what this says so I'm going to pretend it doesn't really mean that even though it says that quite clearly and historical analysis of what the people of that time believed and taught bears it out. Because I am humble" is indefensible.

You have rejected the claims of every one of those groups, and I would bet good money that you did so without giving them a FRACTION of the deference that Charity and I have given your views.

Now, I'm going to take a break from this thread so I am not tempted to put the modhat on and treat this obnoxious post of yours with the respect it so truly deserves.

This is the Atheism subforum. Christian scripture gets no special treatment here, and that is what you are explicitly demanding of us, under penalty of being subjected to juvenile namecalling and a level of hypocrisy that is astonishing in its lack of self-awareness.

If you cannot handle this forum, you are welcome to stay off it.

But post this kind of bulls hit again and the response will be, within the rules of this site, appropriate.

[Moderator edit to correct formatting issues]

WOW disagree with a man and you see the true vitriol coming out.

Swapping out the “mod” hat as you see fit.  Got it.  This is RAFs forum.  Don’t disagree with him or like many of the most prolific content providers on TWI you will be gone.

DontWorryBeHappy - tremendous detail in posts, driven away by mods, you specifically Raf as nobody else has active modded much of anything here besides you in over a decade.

***(The following factual statement is added by Modgellan: DWBH was not banned from GSC by any of the Moderators no matter what you have heard. We will not further discuss the status of any poster who is no longer able to participate here)***

skyrider and OS are no longer posting - most of the content is dead.

Look my point is simple.  Stories about things you can’t see involve inspiration.  If you read Green Eggs and Ham but don’t believe a Dr Seuss actually exists or that there is a real author writing under that pseudonym you are making up some kind of fantasy game about the real detail you can extract from it.

If there is no God no Jesus Christ my savior, no entities outside of the physical realm and no devil spirits then what exactly is it that you are getting so worked up about?

Yes your clever way about viruses to describe that natural knowledge and spiritual knowledge are in two different categories or dimensions isn’t really that clever.

You can choose not to believe in mental concepts.  Plenty of flat earthers think they have scientific backing.  

And calling out someone’s confirmation bias which you have and I have  certainly should not produce this level of hate or vitriol.

This whole logic about the epic of Gilgamesh “not holding itself to be the Word of God”

all those capitalizations are straight outta fundamentalist bias whether or not you want to face it.

The Word is my muse.

Find another muse besides hate if you want to truly “deconvert”.

And yes I’m happy to stay off this forum and direct my life in a different direction.  Let me know there anger boy.

Looking deeper into scripture comes from a spiritual perspective not from a lawyer cross defense perspective.  Jesus did not commend the Pharisees attempts to “look deeper” into scripture to catch him in his words and accuse him.  So there has to be something beyond the ego running wild that you attach to when “looking deeper”.

On 5/9/2024 at 2:04 PM, Raf said:

On the substance of that portion of the discussion, I don't see why it would be so strange to have an unbeliever ask a believer to take a deeper look at scripture. Why wouldn't we? It's from a deeper look at scripture that we realize the evolution of Yahweh as a character (we would add "fictional" to character, but that would be presumptuous). It's from a deeper look at scripture that you realize the cosmology of Genesis is incompatible with what we know to be true. There is no firmament (big solid wall) holding back water from the sky.

I personally WELCOME in depth analyses of scripture. What I don't accept is ad hoc explanations that force scripture to say things it doesn't say. The firmament is not "the expanse" or "the universe." The Exodus from Egypt was not a secret prediction that Jesus would spend a couple of years as a baby in Egypt. The "virgin shall conceive and be with child" has nothing to do with the messiah. When you take a deeper look at the verses that are supposedly fulfilments of old testament prophecies, you will find more often than not that the prophecies are not talking about the messiah at all.

Oh but they're types. Nope, that's made up.

 

The strange part is that you are blind to the bias you are bringing to the analysis.

its easy to be critical of everything and to adopt a critical bias.  But even with humans if you approach them with a critical bias it completely affects how you perceive them.

This produces a new type of sunglasses- the poop tinted ones.

There is no “cosmology” of Genesis that is something you are reading into it.  It is an origin story with a lot of symbolic elements.

Likewise those who think that Jesus Christ was mentally abusing children he was healing or that somebody made up all those stories completely is delusional.  They are ignoring probabilities of any kind discounting inaccuracies introduced by centuries of hand copying and just making up their own narrative completely and saying unless you “prove me wrong” what I say is true.

I can read “The Epic of Gilgamesh” and get out of it what it has - the culture of a story passed down by bards, rhyming verse, some elements of the world they lived in, etc.

It’s only with the inflated egos like I see on this thread that think they are all the center of the universe that every such literary work must be accompanied by their version of scientific proof.  You’re not that important to require or demand any such thing.

The scriptures say of themself they are not valuable without a positive outlook toward them.  Your attitude towards a Creator really determines what unlocks for you in scripture.

If He doesn’t exist then your bias is to tear down everything attached and pointing out inconsistencies to invalidate any value in His messages.  So you yourself are the impediment to actually accomplishing an in depth analysis of scripture.  And your confirmation bias will allow you to “prove” anything you want.

Regarding censorship I believe you at your word it didn’t happen and the 3 dropped posts were something to do with either login issues or the forum database resetting or something.  But between dropped posts and the in line responses within a quote it is too tedious to answer certain posts that are now stacking up with similar kind of illogic.

You are being a dog in the manger.  That is not my problem.

Jesus provided exact guidance for these types of interactions in the gospels as he conversed with the Pharisees.  They also did not believe in him and were trying to use their “in depth analysis” of scripture to catch him in his words.

Conspiracy theory is not in depth analysis.  VPWs Advanced Class is living proof of this.

To me there absolutely is fundamentalist Way bias in how you are presenting your arguments for being an atheist.

“The Word” does not fit with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision.  God does not have a purpose for every adjective He inspired, and He doesn’t possess people and write with their hands like automatic writing.

That is TWI BS and a symptom of an overly aggressive fundamentalist bias.

I find the same hyper ventilation over adjectives in other cults - Mormons and JWs.  Except they also use the fundamentalist approach to “prove” Joseph Smiths delusions or the GBs true position as the faithful and discreet slave.

18 hours ago, Raf said:

I consider myself humanist as well. 

Since there is no hierarchy in humanism, no one really gets to define it. This website gathers various definitions that permit us to ascertain some kind of consensus.

For me, it boils down to the following:

* No gods (or devils) or spirits, etc. 

* Morality is derived from human experience and based on both empathy and the greater good.

* Humankind is responsible for its future and well-being.

There's much more to it, of course. 

 

Is a humanist one that removes all controversial posts from a thread yet leaves the ones up that present the same point they embrace?

I notice about 4 of my posts were removed one of which noting the illogical nature of an atheist doing detailed word studies on scripture and lecturing others on “going deeper” into those same scriptures.

Believe what you want.

Do not censor logic.

Censorship is not “accepting reality on its own terms” but re defining your own reality by restricting what is presented.

These tactics are identical to TWI.  The viewpoint is opposite.

Why is a “deconversion “ necessary?

It seems like those are folks that still need to break the bonds of the fundamentalist cult before building their lives in a constructive fashion.

I certainly don’t need that.  The Christianity I accepted in my youth is still sound and solid and nothing like the bondage of TWI.  I can and do point out their doctrinal and practical errors.

What I dislike is the ego shown in viewpoints.  It seems like a “dog in the manger” approach.  We can’t eat any of the hay but we are going to bark at all the cows to keep them away from the hay.

I am growing to understand OldSkools perspective on sharing from a perspective that will not be respected.

And one more note.

Raf if this post is censored it will be my last on this site.  Not trying to be mean or controversial but if conversation is going to happen there need to be fair boundaries. 
 

Peace outta this thread for the fifth time.

3 hours ago, Charity said:

This is the first time you mentioned “spirits” in connection with that record which was how Mark and Luke explained it.  In the past, you spoke only of a “spiritual cause.” 

I wrote: Even though I had doubts concerning the story my friend shared with me, it was the talk of devil spirits that was upsetting.  I had always been that way when reading about them in the bible, especially the one story about Jesus casting a devil spirit out of a child.  That one did come to my mind because of what was happening in my grandson’s life with his non-verbal autism and seizures.

This paragraph was referring to a time when I was beginning to seriously doubt what the bible said about prayer and trusting God.  It was before I had concluded there were no such things as devil spirits. 

I wrote: This bulls hit doctrine from the bible is evil and very harmful. 

This was the statement that caused you to wonder if I was saying Jesus casting out a devil spirit from the child was evil and very harmful.  I wrote it after I had deconverted from Christianity.

No, the BS doctrine I was talking about was not about Jesus wanting to deliver a child tormented by a devil spirit.  The BS doctrine was about devil spirits in general and specifically about a child having one. 

You obviously can’t understand what I was going through at the time because you have never experienced it yourself.  I had written previously about how my grandson would sometimes get physically agitated because of his autism and also about his myoclonic seizures where his head would suddenly jerk downwards and forcibly hit whatever was in front of him.  He had regular black eyes, bruises, cuts and bumps on his forehead and face.  It was painful watching all of this. 

That I had at times (before deconverting) considered he might have a devil spirit was because of those gospel records, and this made the situations even more distressing.  Whether I was wrong in making that connection is not the point.  The point is that now I believe the doctrine that devil spirits exist is evil and very harmful.

This is a long response.  No I can’t relate to your exact experience with your grandson.  The experiences I’ve had are different.

So is the answer to the question I asked that you believe Jesus was harassing those kids or abusing them mentally?

Because this is a record of him doing something that was observed and recorded.

13 hours ago, Charity said:

I think there are enough positive verses about God and Jesus in the bible that people can accept them both on those terms alone.  The bible says God is love and also that there is no fear in love.  Therefore, there should be no fear in loving God and living a Christian life.  If that is as far as people want to go, there doesn't seem to be any harm in doing so - there are only benefits, one of which is freedom from needing to have an obedient-slave-to-god mentality.  I don't know exactly where salvation comes into play here though. 

I started this thread in this forum because of its name.  I see the whole of scripture shows that Yahweh is not a good god.  Any supposed benefits attributed to him come at a very high price, and that is why I now speak out when people say he is good. When you live with an abusive, angry, authoritative and vengeful partner, it's not wise to live in denial or say you have to take the bad along with the good.  You leave that partner and look for one that is safer and healthier.

One does not need this god of the bible to live a loving, meaningful and peaceful life.

 

 

I guess this is called “personification” where you take all of the negative elements you experienced from a cult, label man’s abuse as God being an abusive partner, and equate some form of leaving Christianity as leaving an abusive marriage arrangement.

Your life your business.  Not a path that has the slightest interest for me.

If you are saying I’m living in denial I think maybe the mirror would point 3 fingers back at yourself.  You are equating fundamentalism and more specifically the specific bondage of TWI with scripture and all of Christianity.  “If that is as far as you want to go” that is the height of ego to think that I am refusing to “go deeper” or some BS you still have ingrained from cult fundamentalism.  Being a scribe or a Pharisee is not “going deeper” as accurately illustrated by my Lords interaction with them.

The vast majority of all Christians consider TWI a cult and VPs teachings to be self aggrandizing plagiarism.  

So was Jesus abusing those children he cast spirits out of?  Still waiting on that answer.  What does your “going deeper” tell you there?

10 hours ago, Charity said:

 

The way you are inserting comments into my quote makes it impossible to answer any of your questions inline and I’m not cutting and pasting every one of them from all over everywhere.  If I’m not answering all your questions that is why.

So much of this is Christianity 101.

God as Creator was not a dictator so he did not interfere in His creation every microsecond but set up systems where people could choose to talk to Him or not.

Those who do He helps but not in a direct interference way for the most part.  Certain circumstances dictate miracles such as those we read of Jesus on earth.

Mankind has arrived at whatever state he is in through his own choice. Yes this is allegorical as today people also arrive at their own state through their own choice.

What other parts of the Bible are allegorical?  A lot of them.  Even VPs teaching highlights verses with “figures of speech” as different from a direct reading.  Remember the whole Athletes of the Spirit debacle with TWI taking figurative language to a new low?

With respect to the devil spirit comments you are choosing to be confused as you don’t believe they exist.  From your mouth.

Jesus healed children by removing a spiritual cause of their illness.  At least that is what seems pretty clear in those verses.

Your grandson has a known mental condition that has negative and positive ramifications.  This is not a devil spirit.  This is not a spiritual cause.  

Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

So now for my questions.

What was Jesus doing to those children if not healing them?  If he wasn’t removing a spiritual cause then the only other logical conclusion would involve some form of mental child abuse.  Is that what you believe happened?

I am not gaslighting anything.  I am commenting on words proceeding from your own mouth.  If it’s not gas coming out of your mouth how can it be lit on fire?

1 hour ago, Charity said:

1) I did not give an interpretation of Gen 2 & 3.  I referred to them exactly how they were written.  Would you, as a loving father, simply let your perfect child who has no knowledge of evil nor of the existence of a cunning and evil arch-enemy of yours deal with such a creature on her own, knowing that she would be deceived by his craftiness?  Would you not correct her before she went to your other child and offered him the forbidden fruit you had placed in their home?  Would the matter of testing their obedience to you supersede the you knew would happen after they ate the fruit? 

The story makes no sense as I think you know, but millions of people still believe it is how sin entered the world.  So now, what is the real reason for the "wickedness" in mankind and the authority and power of the devil and his spirit followers and the need for a messiah as described in the rest of the bible?

 

2) Concerning the rest of your sentence: 

I was not stuck on vpw's law of believing.  I was stuck on trusting God.  There is a difference - the former is a false doctrine and the latter is scriptural knowing that the word "faith," used over 200 times in the bible, means trust. 

The devil spirits I connected with my grandson were not because of some idiot who was blabbing about them in a medical situation.  Even though I had doubts concerning the story my friend shared with me, it was the talk of devil spirits that was upsetting.  I had always been that way when reading about them in the bible, especially the one story about Jesus casting a devil spirit out of a child.  That one did come to my mind because of what was happening in my grandson’s life with his non-verbal autism and seizures.

 

 

 

Mark 17:17And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb (mute, speechless) spirit; 18And wheresoever he takes him, he tears (seizes) him: and he foams, and gnashes with his teeth, and pines (withers, stiffens) away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.

 

Luke 9:38And, behold, a man of the company cried out, saying, Master, I beseech thee, look upon my son: for he is mine only child. 39And, lo, a spirit takes him, and he suddenly cries out; and it tears (convulses) him that he foams again, and bruising him hardly departs from him.

 

Remember, I had not began deconverting during this time.  And even now, just a month after realizing there are no such things as devil spirits, I still cried while reading these verses before copying them into this post.  This bulls hit doctrine from the bible is evil and very harmful. 

 

 

 

 

 

I view Gen 2 and 3 as allegorical illustrating freedom of choice between good and evil that is available to every living soul.

You most certainly are interpreting it in a fundamentalist sense from my perspective.

Faith means different things in the Bible I think most count 5 usages.

The idea of devil spirits is upsetting.  Having spiritual causes of illnesses is upsetting.  Mental illnesses which can look like devil spirits are upsetting.  Being sick is upsetting.  Cancer and chemo is upsetting.  VP said cancer was a devil spirit.  Then he died of it.

What .... doctrine are you talking about?  Those records in the gospels are Jesus healing a couple kids by removing a spiritual cause of the illness?

So healing the kids was ....?  Dang that is real cynical.  Not a view I want to share at all.

14 hours ago, waysider said:

I'm quite serious. After the movie, we went back to our townhouse twigs and discussed what we had learned. A splendid way to spend a Saturday evening.

Yipes.

I hated to watch movies with the wayfers as they over spiritualize everything.

My natural defenses were to either watch stuff alone or take them to The Exorcist and then at least they would be entertaining.

20 hours ago, Charity said:

 

Trying to respond to this I think a previous response somehow showed up missing.

What I find ironic is someone with no belief in any inspiration in scripture telling me to “look deeper” into scripture.

 No my remark is not snarky it is in the practical realm.

What is pleasing God?  It varies per individual but to me it involves seeking out a virtuous life.  I like my life better seeking out virtue than I do trying to parse over some VPW regurgitation of manifestations in a book he stole or “the law of believing” which actually I think we’ve shown to have spiritualist origins here on GSC.

Does God “always” provide wisdom when I ask?  I think so, whether it is in the form of the word of a friend, a sunrise, an idea, an observation about nature, a secular writing striking me in a way, or about a hundred other practical ways I could mention.

But to you He is “an unloving Father” because of how you interpret Gen 2 & 3 and are stuck on VPW believing fantasy and some idiot who is blabbing about devil spirits in a medical situation.

Yeah I get it.  It’s always the hypocrites that drive people away from churches and they are everywhere.

But what do you want to build in your life?  Tearing down idols is only half of a renovation project.

15 hours ago, Charity said:

Your statement is true in the sense that no one is all-knowing, so there are many uncertainties in life.  But in Christianity, this is not allowed.  God expects (actually demands) believers to have absolute certainty in him and in the "word" he has given them (Heb 11:6, James 1:5-6).  IMO, this puts believers between a rock and a hard place - not a healthy place to be in.  

Now why would an all-loving God want to do this to his children? 

I don’t read that at all in those verses.

Hebrews 11:6 - I mean is this just common logic ?  If you don’t believe in a magical character how would you possibly try to please a magical character?

James 1:5-6 ask God for wisdom

If you don’t believe in a God why would you ever ask Him for wisdom?  Again rocket science 101.

And now that you don’t believe in God you are saying making basic logical statements shows an unloving God?

I disagree.  I read it those verses as simple logical statements with logical conclusions.

What rock and what hard place is it that you find yourself in either way?

Want some more rocket science 101?

If you  never read the Bible you won’t understand the Bible.

If you read the Bible and don’t believe in a God it probably isn’t going to be that interesting and you probably won’t read it much.

But a fundamentalist, hand in a glove absolutist?  Yeah that’s what wrecks the Bible and any inspirational truth.  And places believers in bondage.  And drives them away completely.

Goodbye baby.  Goodbye bathwater.

Adults and showers only now!

I am gonna back out of this channel now and let you all continue.  
 

3 hours ago, Charity said:

Deism from the Latin term deus, meaning "god") is the philosophical position and rationalistic theology that generally rejects revelation as a source of divine knowledge and asserts that empirical reason and observation of the natural world are exclusively logical, reliable, and sufficient to determine the existence of a Supreme Being as the creator of the universe. More simply stated, Deism is the belief in the existence of God (often, but not necessarily, a God who does not intervene in the universe after creating it), solely based on rational thought without any reliance on revealed religions or religious authority. Deism emphasizes the concept of natural theology—that is, God's existence is revealed through nature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

Any thoughts on this?

Yes although yet another label there seems to certainly be some level of restraint that a Creator has in day to day intervention.  

Is it a big bang then see you approach?  

Is it a God talks to me every day cheering me up writing patterns in my cornflakes approach?

I see that as the two extremes of possibility and reality likely lies between the two.

I think the battle of Armageddon is supposed to be an arena where there is no restraint to the spiritual realm but an all out battle.

Until then there is a restraint on both sides.  So there is no justice in this world and bad things happen to good people.

Whether you believe in a spiritual realm or a Creator or not it appears the same reality is faced regardless of belief.

My thoughts for the .05 worth lol.

13 hours ago, Charity said:

Early blood testing showed my grandson was born with a rare gene deletion which caused him to require life-saving surgery when he was a day old and two subsequent major surgeries to completely correct a physical abnormality.  We were told that as he grew older, autism may also be a possibility because of this deletion. 

Fundamentalist beliefs can cause people to refuse medical intervention for themselves or their children because it meant doubting god's ability to heal.  I knew the physical reasons for my grandson's health issues but still fell a few times for the doctrine that certain illnesses can be caused by devil spirits.  Not anymore now.

Glad you found medical answers and have enjoyed a rich interaction with your grandson.

The JWs are real bad about the medical stuff and superstition with how they refuse any blood transfusions due to some strange scripture interpretation.

I blame the Adv Class for all the stuff about devil spirits.  It was like Harry Potter crossed with conspiracy theory with some OT reading to lull the hearers to sleep.

It is interesting to see the end result of all of that is driving people away from faith.

socks I really enjoyed reading your post and logic and reasoning.  I love the conclusion arriving at serendipity as a common goal.  Polar opposites to force feeding a new Plaffy down the worlds throat with a trademark.

22 hours ago, oldiesman said:

All spirit beings believed to exist by man.   God, Jesus, Holy, Gabriel, Michael, Lucifer, Watchers, Angels, Demons etc. etc.

Yes this is interesting.  It is hard to find a middle ground on this topic.  It either progresses to a Dan Brown type novel where you have Franciscan monks vs the Illuminati or the rejecting of anything not observable by your 5 senses.

One angle to this argument or discussion to consider is how does mankind realize the benefit of superior intellect?  How is higher reasoning constructed in the philosophical realms?  The Greeks had a high degree of superstition even to the point of not allowing unknown gods introduced at Mars hill.

Anyway no answers but interesting discussion.

14 hours ago, Charity said:

There were a few times when I actually thought my non-verbal, autistic grandson may have had a devil spirit(s) because of how physically agitated he would become sometimes and then, especially, when he began to have seizures.  The seizures had become myoclonic in nature where his head would jerk severely downwards and forcibly hit whatever was in front of him.  He had regular black eyes, bruises, cuts and bumps on his forehead and face. 

I've let go of those thoughts since deconverting.  Doing so was like coming out of a freakish h..llhole where I feared not being able to cast out a devil spirit from my own grandson and entering a bright and sane place where such thoughts mean nothing because devil spirits are not real - they don't exist!  (Since then, my grandson's neurologist changed his meds, and he no longer has those extreme jerks.)

During this time, a friend wanted to encourage me to trust God again and shared how their teenage son prayed for God to remove demons from someone appearing to have a heart attack and the person instantly was delivered of their symptoms.  I had no way of knowing if the healing was real or not, but I did know how  off-putting the story was to me.  It only reinforced my determination to never go back to that "world" again.

Yeah there’s probably a better way.  Non-verbal autism is well known.  It seems that non verbal would make it very strong on that spectrum.  This is a known mental challenge that is genetic usually and due to missing chemicals in a body that requires treatment and maintenance.

The ignorant have always flocked to superstition to explain away the unexplained.

A native witch doctor with completely different beliefs would possibly come up with the same superstitious conclusion.

13 hours ago, Charity said:

Checking for understanding.  You're saying the spark of the divine in the biblical authors' writings was from God and we can find places where that spark appears because of how they subjectively inspire each of us.  Am I paraphrasing you correctly?   

I think we all could put some inspirational words down on paper?  Some might say they come from meaningful personal experiences, and others may say they were inspired by God - He put the words on their heart to write.

Would the two different origins make any difference to the reader?  Should they?

 

Yes this is the dilemma it seems.  Is there anything spiritual out there or in there that inspires from the outside?  Or the inside?  
 

There is a real challenge here.  Mankind needs a muse.  People need heroes to inspire them to greater acts.

What is this muse?  I view it as a spark of the divine.  Where I look for inspiration as there is little of it in the world arising of itself.  Only if you condition yourself to look for it.  

In your scenario you describe what does it matter whether the inspiration is a new view of your personal experience or that same view possibly introduced by a loving Father?

People will view the words I wrote here as either inspirational or devil spirit inspired depending on their mindset.  Or illogical lol.

My inspiration is rejecting the Pharisee approach to controlling things and amassing power and simply looking to the simple truths in writings for inspiration.

A favorite inspirational quote for me about fundamentalist mindset is actually from Ralph Waldo Emerson “a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds”.  That inspires me almost as much as Jesus words to those hypocrites.