chockfull

1 hour ago, hiway29 said:

I had no idea Living in Love was removed from the bookstore …. In my memory, it is a perfect piece of cult indoctrination ,painting this idealistic picture of the early years of vpw and life on the farm. I don’t see why theyd want to bury it. I was gone by the ‘fog years’, and certainly by the regime of hate and absolute control lcm it became. Was this part of the ‘old winecaskets’ , ‘cleaning house’, and all that? What a place !

Yes probably part of removing material from those no longer with the Way.  Similar to other solo musical artists as well as other authors.

The Way Living in Love is singularly unique as it is the only place where the supposed revelation to VPW with the snow on the gas pumps story and God supposedly telling VP that he would teach him “the Word” like it hasn’t been known since the first century.

That rumor was responsible for deifying the PFAL direction and the isolation of the Way off from the rest of the body of Christ.  Young minds all over were duped by this message.

And the leadership of the Way love the rumor.  But they hate any scrutiny on the rumor because of their decision to not pursue Biblical research in a department any more other than regurgitation of earlier VPW works.  Because of the rumor.

The rumor goes right along with the brass statues of VP on all TWI clergy desks as well as his brazen image in the entrance to teaching centers referred to as the “Timothy statues”

I mean you can almost see Moses Aaron and the molten calf standing right there.

1 hour ago, hiway29 said:

The snow on gas pumps was recorded in minute detail from vp’s lips to elena whitesides book, the Way Living in Love, which of course you’re aware of. I consider that book sanctioned material. That is almost a textbook on how to think, act, and talk like a seasoned wayfer.

Hey hiway29,

By unsanctioned I was referring to them removing it from their bookstore for sale.

Also along those lines it is notably missing from MrsVPWs work.  
 

The Way prefers to have it spread as rumors and jokes as in this thread.

Yes Elena sounds like a seasoned wayfer in the book.

On 4/13/2024 at 2:54 PM, Raf said:

Ohhhh!!!!!!

I'll never forget the feeling that came over me when I realized that the firmament was a giant glass wall, the sky is blue because it's holding back an ocean, and the sun, moon and stars are all in the firmament and not in outer space (because there's no such thing).

It's batcrap insane, I tell you.

Yeah the whole salt water thing and tying it to amniotic fluid in a woman giving birth was even more of a stretch to sanity.

But Okie daddy never did excel in plausible dreams or Biblical research lol.

On 4/26/2024 at 10:20 AM, dkarateka7 said:

Thank you cman for your thoughts.  My reply to your thoughts cman.     Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, it is written, that  man shall not live by bread alone but by every word of God   The word of God  is an eternal now.  

Hey karateka

Nice to meet you.  Inspiration from scripture is great.  People using that as a means to control you is not.

I dunno what any of this has to do with Donna whose thread you posted in.  You might consider starting another thread to talk about a topic or introduce yourself more and start talking.  Just a suggestion.

I find remarkably little provable evidence in most critical textualism.

https://study.com/learn/lesson/euclidean-geometry-overview-history-examples.html#:~:text=Euclidean geometry refers to the,around the year 300 BCE.

I look at Euclid and his concepts.  He wrote down a few observations.  Years later they were turned into postulates and people derived whole semesters of torture for students starting with his words lol.

Now we can manufacture and print amazing objects in 3D geometry.

However in direct contrast most philosophical and religious discussions devolve into a sheer waste of time with no notable progress anywhere.

Faith in Jesus Christ would be the only postulate to form the correct math to me anyway.  But the garbage people derive from that and call geometry or Christianity is missing logic and inspiration.

20 hours ago, Raf said:

First of all you are free to look at these verses any way you want. If you're asking for my response, I will offer it: Foreshadowing is a deliberate literary device. You would have to ask yourself whether the authors/writers actually intended the one to foreshadow the other.

I contend they were human authors and had no such intention.

 

I would respond that the authors themselves had no knowledge about how their words would be foreshadowing the Messiah.  If there was any element of inspiration from God in their words (way different from the theopneustos trap of every word being automatic writing from God) then God as the orchestrator could be in charge of the foreshadowing.  Hosea was just writing about a drought and tying it to Israel’s lifestyle.

I would agree that they are human authors.  I differ in viewing them of having a “spark of the divine” in their writings.  

I would contend that scripture is Gods intention for humans to connect with that spark for inspiration but was never designed for Pharisee and Scribe exercises in predicting the future or coming up with unfulfillable levels of detail in laws and customs.  That would be man’s natural proclivity for controlling things and adding to the narrative.

Others views may vary of course

On 4/24/2024 at 9:45 PM, Junior Corps Surviver said:

Dr. W, a Priest and a Rabbi are on a sinking boat. Priest gets out, walks on water to the shore and survives. Dr. W gets out, walks on water to the shore and survives. Rabbi tries it and drowns.

Priest says "We should have told him about the rocks'

Dr. W says "What rocks?"

Hardy har. Heard this joke a million times in TWI. To review. Dr. W is a diety, the Priest used a trick and the Jewish guy dies. None of this is a funny joke. This is an antisemitic joke. Funny how time reveals a different perspective. "At least the priest was a Christian."   

WOW.  I honestly never heard this joke throughout my time in TWI.  But it does not surprise me in the least.

When people get to the point of crafting metal images of VPW for their clergy desks and teaching centers then the next logical step is to deify his words.  All of the little stories and jokes that are told behind the scenes and off stage are really vital in maintaining the hoax.  Like this one.  And other tall tales of VPs prowess.  Most of them were told by him but many by his sycophant followers.

This reminds me of the only record of VPWs “revelation” and snow on gas pumps.  It is not recorded anywhere in sanctioned TWI material.  So they hid the story and just tell rumors of it behind the scenes to dupe the unsuspecting.

I mean is the book “Lifelines” with quotes from VP still sold in their bookstore.  They elevate VPs words to a level above scripture.  You have to ask VP for the “literal translation according to usage” or VPs metaphor for “my interpretation”

In my Bible 1 Cor 12:21 says the eye cannot say to the hand I have no need of you.

This cult basically lives in that doctrinal and practical error.  If you live isolated from all the rest of the body of Christ, have no interaction with them throughout your life, and continue to believe you are the only sect that has the true interpretation of “God’s Word” since the first century you delude yourself.

Why would I trust anything they teach in I Cor 12-14 if they can’t live one simple verse in 12:21?

The fruit of their lives contradicts everything that comes out of their mouth.

On 4/22/2024 at 3:57 PM, Twinky said:

I encountered on Zoom a man whom I'd witnessed to decades before - passionately interested in God and became a staunch Wayfer.

He now has somewhat different beliefs.  He is convinced that the Earth was created and populated as stated in Genesis 1, and that the exact day that God took rest can be calculated back.  It was a Saturday.  That is why we should honour the Sabbath - on Saturday, and that day has been calculated and can be ascertained Biblically.  It has also been carefully preserved by Jews.  Keeping the "sabbath" on any day at all that is not Saturday will, apparently, result in damnation, because it is a defiling and disobedience to Ex 20:8ff.

Exodus 20 - “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. | ESV.org  

Safe to say, I don't agree with this PoV and have (for other reasons) discontinued conversation with him.

 

We just don't know what time lag, and what events, happened between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2.  Do we need to?  Or do we simply need to disregard prophets and priests who claim to know?

I think there are a lot of time lags in the Bible and even more time lags between events and when their history is written. 

Given all these time lags and additional ones I can come up with personally like the time lag warp I entered into last Tuesday lol I would say that whatever the time lag was between Gen 1:1 and 1:2 it was real as well as perceived.

Captain Obvious out lol.

15 hours ago, Raf said:

  yu vThe red thread is, um, how to put it politely... Bulls hit.

It's a way for Christians to force their interpretation of scripture onto the O.T. when it's just not there. 

Like that verse about "he shall be called a Nazarene," which had flupall to do with Jesus.

Yeah, the song in Psalm 119:54 his not Christ. 

Neither is Hosea's latter rain

I mean like is it OK for me to view it as foreshadowing scriptures about the promise of the Messiah?  Every single one of them is metaphorical so there is not one single literal reference.

The idea being that Christians could look at Jesus Christ like the saving latter rain in Hosea for the crops as to similar to the Saviors effect in their life.  But nobody would think he literally melts into clouds and his blood transforms into rain or anything (except maybe one Christian sect)

I mean Oral had another logic jump to associate all that with the 4th man in the furnace.

 But whattarryougonnado?  Preachers gonna string together pictures.  People gotta be inspired by something.

Fundamentalists dictating others lives is a different story they can shut it.

I know I know I know.  Ok Johnny Jumpup tell us.  So Moses was like in the middle of translating these messages in his head down to hieroglyphics enscribed on animal skins.  Then just as he was finishing up 1:1 and moving on to 1:2 his scribe died of colon cancer.  He said whatamigonnado?  So unlike Joseph Smith who said screw the golden tablets I’m gonna stick my face in a hat and make up some BS, Moses was true to the vision and eventually replaced the scribe and continued on writing Genesis 1:2.

Oh you mean the time between the events described in the verses?  Well just about anything could happen.

Some unknown centuries later a flim flam artist from Ohio filled it in with all sorts of imaginative drama.  And then his successor not a bright man took even further liberties with imagined stories in Genesis.

Genesis has all sorts of cool stuff in it.  Giants.  People living 700 years.  Human sacrifice.  Incest.  

But these guys needed their own flair to make $$$$.  Snow in July.  White and black heart visions.  Conspiracy theory.  And strange sex.

Gen 1:1 and 1:2 has a gap in it where cult leaders designed screen doors for submarines.

https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/s/toPjST02Yg
 

This thread talks about all the social advantages there are in being in a cult.  Many “friends” easily accessible.  This person talks about the JW app where they are connected to 500 people and are “friends” with 100 of them.

Another insightful comment describes that as  “forced connections with people whose real personalities are hidden under a facade”.

I think many people trade their souls and morals for this fake connection.  I certainly lost about 100 percent of those fake connections when I decided that the path of lifetime service to prop up “WOW” TM and self inflated nincompoops was not the best for my family.

How many people disagree with the tenets of TWI but are too afraid to leave because of their “friends”????

Heres a tip.  They are not your friends.  They are less your friends than the neighbors on your street for the most part and than your average person in a community.  Those ties aren’t worth the sacrifice.  The juice is not worth the squeeze IMO.

If God intended every detail of Jesus life to be innerantly recorded, it is just much more logical that He would inspire the writings closer to their source in time not over 100 years later.  I would postulate that the very nature of His inspiration on recording the history 100 years later would preclude it from being innerant and points to the literal mental gymnastics of fundamentalists being a waste of time and focused on their own goals not Gods.  Then a focus on the Greek language which produced mathematicians not the Aramaic which is less precise in some ways of expression.  So Fundamentalists always love mathematical sounding arguments and the Greek language accommodates this.

Yes you can spend your whole life on this hamster wheel and yes that would be 

BATCRAP INSANE

15 hours ago, cman said:

vp didn't understand genesis (or much) because he didn't understand or even have a clue to what revelations says ===

genesis and revelations are uniquely connected, like all the books

he knew very basic Christian doctrine and mixed it with his phobias

VP started out with a class for helping others regardless of denomination better understand the Bible.  When that failed to produce a narcissist level of attention and income he escalated to attacking the other denominations to make himself stand out.  He did this on multiple fronts the biggest of which is the Holy Spirit field.  To make that pill easier to swallow he spent a lot of time in harmony of the gospels endeavors, with the goal of making himself viewed as the sole authority in the field and all other Biblical scholars as untrustworthy.  He himself was not that much of a detail man so he relegated the research detail to teams for Greek and Bernita Jess for Aramaic.  He stole BG Leonard’s characters to spice up his class Johnny Jumpup and Maggie Muggins.  He plagiarized through straight scribe copying at a motel he checked into for 10 days over 70% of JE Stiles book on the Holy Spirit field.  He didn’t have a clue in most theological areas because he was a narcissist whose main interest was not in helping other people but in propping up himself as “The Doctor” a one phrase cult worship title indicating the sole authority on Biblical matters and “father in the Word” which is another scriptural acrobatic used to increase the worship and idolatry toward the person.  This culture successfully embedded itself into Way International culture to the point of literally creating brazen images of VPW for every clergy desk and larger than life images created for teaching centers.  This culture of idolatry and self serving focus has persisted to this day with the Way International isolating itself off from the rest of the body of Christ and worshipping its top leaders way beyond any Biblical instruction.

At this point they are relegated mostly to foreign mission endeavors in 3rd world countries for the majority of the numbers today.  Which brings the irony of VP full circle, as when he was leaving his denomination to start the cult, he wrote a paper criticizing the denomination’s foreign mission work calling it “cultural appropriation”.  This attack on his denomination was found out to be a smoke screen thrown up as he was leaving timed to be just ahead of denominational sanctioning for having an affair with his secretary which had become known to his denominational elders.

what happened between Gen 1:1 and 1:2?   A whole lotta detail filled in mostly by imagination and mans goals.

On 4/6/2024 at 12:46 AM, WordWolf said:

We're discussing this lately.

The motorcycle and limited tours.  Well by the 40th anniversary of TWI and the Living Victoriously teachings and extended hoopla around VPs retirement, the motorcycle would be of limited use.

Historically there was an annual Harley ride at the ROA that was a photo op one time a year.  VPs liver and corresponding health problems with cancer would mean that he would get little use out of a motorcycle at that stage in his life.  He probably couldn’t handle a full day of riding or the road miles and the Mrs sat in that sidecar as little as humanly possible.

Time magazine centered on that photo as a cult leader and the lavish gifts they receive.  

So a special gift for a museum is all that ever was to become.

All the current decisions of the BOD seem targeted towards ignoring the outside world and getting back to nostalgia which was a rip off of the Jesus Revolution from the start.

Ostrich management 101.

2 hours ago, Junior Corps Surviver said:

Forgive me if this has already been discussed but i was talking to a friend from Junior Corps and she reminded me that I had said that this motorcycle was the frist time I thought TWi was being shady. It was either at The Rock or Corps Week. They had us all "give" (no pressure or anything lol) so we could buy a "surprise" gift of a motorcycle for VPW with a side car for his wife. I remember feeling ressured and lied to. How on earth was this going to be a surprise? With all the money we give, we have to give more so he can have a fancy bike? i brought it up at a Junior Corps meeting and was yelled at and sent to bed. Loudly being reproved for being right is a terrible way to raise a child.      

Yeah it was like a 40k Harley.   I mean with that money you could pay cash to send a kid to college.   So glad instead we could have 2 group bike rides with photos of VP looking like Hitler instead.   

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/s/wt8jz3TFOc
 

Recent statistics are showing around 50% of returning Mormon missionaries are leaving the church.  It seems the most devout adherents to the rules are among the ones leaving first.  Those who go through motions for political gain are advancing in positions.

What a testament to the long-term adverse effects of using another individual to expand your organization via free labor and outreach programs.

Did I recognize these patterns in how TWI uses their “Wow” TM Ambassadors? Or “Way Ambassadors”? Or Way Corps pressured to “get a class together”?

I did these programs.  They isolated me from family and friends and re-enforced the cult values over individual goals.  They lead to ever increasing commitment to an organization and protection of everyone and everything they represent regardless of how evil the impact is.  

There is long-term isolation from support groups and replacing them with more devout and controlling support groups.  There is the grooming for higher programs always.  In those programs there is the climbing over each other to obtain position and status.  The ultimate end of this is the BOD who answer to nobody and are treated like gods.

Don’t let your life be used for another’s political aspirations and control.

Regardless of what group it is, what pitch they have, the results will always contain consequences.

3 hours ago, oldiesman said:

I found that TWI set a standard for what they thought was truth, or politically historical and crucial facts, and then let the member decide what political party they wanted to entertain.    The one book that got me started on the anti-globalist NWO agenda was "None Dare Call It Conspiracy" which condemned both parties (republican and democrat) as being infiltrated by globalists bent on world government and to watch both parties carefully.   Sometimes they did support democrats remember Hayes Gahagan?    Larry McDonald?    Also, remember in 1976 "Wake Up America" was trying to expose the "Newstates Constitution" as a plan to supplant our own constitution.  That was under President Carter and I remember TWI actively lobbying him to make him aware of what was happening.   In that sense TWI was political-party generic; didn't care which party was there they wanted both parties awake and informed.

I do remember the campaign supporting Hayes Gahagan and the Wake Up America push.  If I’m not mistaken that led to a viable challenge of their tax exempt status in the 80s.  I think for that reason they abandoned all efforts in that category.

Because like all other cults, the “revelation” they receive seems to line up with the laws being passed in the lands they reside.  Like the Mormons banning polygamy right after laws changed.

Penny-ante dictators are only constrained by force, especially legal force.

8 minutes ago, Raf said:

And I would say that he is entitled to how he feels, but his statements have been made before and corrected before, so after a certain point it's a matter of actual fact.

I invite anyone and everyone to go through the threads in Doctrinal and Open and About the Way. "Christian" posts are everywhere, and the overwhelming majority are unchallenged.

We do have one subforum where such challenges are the norm and not the exception. Spend a disproportionate amount of time in that forum and you may leave with a disproportionate understanding of what happens at GSC.

[For anyone still unaware, modcat5 and Raf are the same person]

With many of the forums I follow and Reddit channels those leaving cults have a high percentage that also depart from Christianity.  You are among those.  I do not dispute that the rules of GSC are open and I personally feel as a mod you are very accommodating to conversation even outside the rules boundaries.

Many who are working through cult issues have fragility in their faith and some are going through various stages of what they term “shelf breaking”.

I am also trying to be a little less direct and confrontational due to these elements.  At times I do better than other times.  We chase each other out of here at times by being unfiltered.

Thanks for your efforts to keep this place alive and going.  You deserve extra recognition for that.

Looks good - will watch - thank you!

It is interesting reading about the unfolding of historic events and GSCs involvement in them.  I would note that TWIs tactics have changed over time.  RFR was a technophobe and labeled technology as devilish and tried various tactics to shut down GSC.  The current group has changed directions and embraced technology with multiple “positive only” scriptural sites and basically flooding the internet with as much info as possible so their followers never find this site.  So with both tactics the BOD actions are obscured from the laymen they affect.  

The other side of the story remains valid exposing all of the BITE model control tactics used by TWI cult, and showing off the extreme ego of these leaders and their positions as they live a life with many servants attending to them while they abuse the laity ongoing.  Get those volunteer workers going with all of the trademarked WOW activity put those classes together keep those hamsters running on the wheel happy and donating.

8 hours ago, modcat5 said:

It must be said, it is true that sometimes threads that are posted in the wrong forum and remain there for "some time." This is not a reflection of bias. It is a reflection of the fact that we have jobs and lives of our own and we don't spend our days waiting for someone to post something just so we can review it and pass judgment. This thread was moved when someone politely reported it and correctly noted it belongs in doctrinal, not About the Way. 

I thought "Matters of Faith" as a general category was more fitting than Doctrinal, which has more to do with being Biblically correct. Let me know what you think and we can reconsider its placement.

If you hunt around, you'll see many posts about God and Christ and Christianity that are for the most part undisturbed by atheist or nonbelieving interjections.

OldSkool omitted reference to such posts and threads because they illustrate quite clearly that he is lying. Incidentally, the fact that we continue to permit him to post here despite his insistence on lying about us further illustrates that he is lying. I may not like his lies... I mean posts, but he is welcome to stay as long as he likes so long as he sticks to the rules, which he for the most part has.

Christians are welcome here and discussions about Christian thoughts and ideas are likewise welcome.

 

Thanks for stating it from a mod account that Christians and Christianity are welcome here.  That would be one of the reasons active TWI folk would avoid it.  And it gives rise to current leadership censoring us to their group also.  Which they will do anyway but if we keep things open for discussion it will negate their BS.

I would just take OS post as he doesn’t feel welcome here with a Christian view and he has his reasons.  So hopefully focusing on the openness and not the lying or whatever other perception you are putting forth is better.

I have two points.  One is that this interaction is not personal and face to face.  So it is semi real.  It can have real elements.  But it is not a real connection we have.  That is due to the restricted nature of our knowing one another.

Two I have my personal beliefs and do express them here.  I have a personal connection I feel to Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior.  People can label whatever their perception of me is in their head whatever they want.  I’m not gonna get shaken by their ignorance and mistaken perceptions.

I’m here on this site to help promote a healthy view towards Christianity that recognizes all who claim Jesus as Lord as part of the same body and each needing one another and having a function.

I also recognize many faiths and beliefs here from denominations to philosophers to atheist or science based views.  I recently got in a conversation with a Catholic going through confirmation about the Jesuit college and their views of faith and science.  

I feel that cultic Christianity, segmenting off from the body of Christ is harmful and leads towards other selfish goals not involved in Jesus message.  That would include all cult groups from Scientology to the Christian cults - Mormons, Jehovahs Witnesses, The Way International, and many splinters from that as well as other small groups.  Each exhibits high control over members in thought, emotion, belief, and separates families and marriages with evil doctrine based upon compliance to leaders doctrine and ridiculous practices such as  discouraging higher education and home and business ownership with an illogical and onerous interpretation of scripture related to debt.

Stay out of the cults.  If you love Jesus Christ then tune in and turn on as the Jesus Revolution says.

If you don’t find your circle of those you can discuss high thoughts with and help each other be better in a world that gets worse.

Peace

What I found in TWI is that so much was governed by unspoken rules so that people had to know these unspoken rules or face consequences.  The politics side of that is one of those scenarios.  You have little lemmings pulling up to little voting boxes and all pulling the same levers because that’s what good lemmings do.  There was no diversity of opinion or thought.  This is the biggest travesty - environments for producing Stepford robots with no propensity for freedom of thought or opinion.

That describes the Ways vision of Christianity.  Not a worldwide body of Christ composed of members in particular with different ideas and talents, but rather a uniform stamped copy of the perfect “believer” not Christian because that’s a bad word.  They all vote the same way, hold the same opinions and it is all masked under what they call being “likeminded”.  It is a mental hold on people starting with “the class” and driving towards “likemindedness”

And all of it is unspoken from stages to avoid the threat of paying taxes on earnings.

14 hours ago, Allan said:

Ironic, I just get a very stern message from Modcat warning me of no more POLITICAL POSTS on this forum...log on and HELLO...politics politics politics...

well at least this might LIVEN up the place hahahahahmmnnn

As to the original posters question of whether Murica should adopt 'multi party' elections....Please Don't...it has been the bane of democracy here in Australia and New Zealand...Imagine a 'crooked' party doing backroom deals with an equally crooked party to get majority coalition. It's corrupt over there NOW without giving the regime in charge even more tools to weaponize.

Thx for the note from an experienced perspective.  Maybe it’s a phenomenon with the grass being greener on the other side and the lack of options we have here that’s influencing my feelings on that front.  

I guess our choices are crooked party backroom deals and insurrection.

Politics is messy.  Thx mods for bending rhe rules to accommodate a civil conversation that discusses government and politics as related to TWI.

Ok so before this gets banned out of the gate let me set the framework.  In the US of A, sometimes otherwise referred to as ‘Murica, we have a two party political system.  Some other free republics also have this construct.

I personally would prefer a four viable party system so that we have more options and aren’t restricted to a Tweedledee vs Tweedledum choice in geriatric medicine like we are currently.

However, while I was in TWI I totally noticed a complete affiliation that was unspoken to a single political party.  This was all done hush-hush and never from a stage or teaching platform.   Why?  Political affiliations would ruin a non-profit tax status and be grounds to disqualify TWI.

I remember being on staff at TWI and the undercurrent of “suggestion” which is ever present was to get out and vote for our preferred political party.  

Why does TWI present a complete falsehood to our government that they are politically unbiased?  How can they get away with it without losing tax exempt status?

Mods this isn’t a political discussion so consider merits before ban hammering it.  It is not presenting a one party opinion but discussing the attachments politically of a cult.