spectrum49

HI spectrum, I think you've hit on a very important point amongst the ex-Wayfer community. I'd like to clarify this a little more if you don't mind.

I was in the Way for about 21 years, and had opportunity to meet many people throughout the country. Over the years I was surprised to find that many people that took PFAL took from it that idea that Jesus Christ, "Christ Jesus", was only knowable from the bible, almost as a historical figure. Like "knowing" Thomas Jefferson say, from what's read about him. They fully accepted that they "had Christ in them", but they actually didn't believe that Christ Himself was knowable through a relationship, today.

Before I get too far, is that how you view it? Not necessarily as a product of PFAL teaching but in your current understanding...? Thanks.

As I see it, I remember one time when Paul was on the road to Emmaus, he did hear a voice saying something to the effect that, "I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest." So, of course I believe such things are possible, though I have not personally "heard" from him in person. the scriptures declare that we are members of the body of Christ, and that he is the HEAD. I do believe that is an analogy God is making so we may relate to the fact that we "are all in this together", and that each one should do his part that we function together as ONE. I hope that clarifies it a bit.

As for the rest of you...I do see that this post finally made it back to its ORIGINAL INTENTION, and that is --- that I just wanted to make an observation that RESEARCH of the scriptures is NOT the main-stay of TWI -- and for a long time now, things have become rather stagnant. They claim to be "moving forward", but they are looking BACK.

Seeing just how posts can develop here is an interesting "adventure" to me. We must all be careful in what we say, for we are not here in person, and sometimes things are "lost" without being "face to face".

I am just as guilty, I suppose....but what the heck! It is rather "amusing" at times. Ha! Ha!

Here are a couple of verses which came to mind about all of this:

James 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!

Proverbs 26:20 Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth.

I shall put no more wood on this fire. I believe I made my point, so I will leave it at that, lest it just get way "off topic".

Another verse:

Proverbs 17:14 The beginning of strife is as when one letteth out water: therefore leave off contention, before it be meddled with.

PEACE, ALL!

spec

THE WORD OF GOD has never been hidden and neither has the TRUTH. The Lord Jesus is the TRUTH and through knowledge of HIM that the Scriptures are fully revealed.

brideofjc:

I am not here to argue. I personally do not like people to tell me what to do, like "getting out of Dodge". I have my reasons for what I do, and I will leave when I'm ready, and not because somebody TOLD ME TO, so stop it!

As to your very critical and biting remarks about my post, I suppose I should ask you if you have some strange and wonderful way of "fellowshipping" with the Lord Jesus Christ in person.

I thought it was the SCRIPTURES which (when studied and researched) may reveal who Jesus is to us BY HIS EXAMPLE.

Isn't that HOW you know about him in the first place?

You seem to suppose that it is not necessary to study about him, but knowing him will aid you in understanding the scriptures.

And that is precisely why I asked if you have found a way to fellowship with him OUTSIDE OF THE SCRIPTURES. As "his bride", perhaps he is more willing to reveal himself to you than to me....I am only "part of his body"! Think on that a while.

And also think on this: A common saying is "Live and learn." Personally, I think that is backwards. It should be "Learn and LIVE!"

spec

It is RESEARCH that started TWI, and it is only continued research that should be keeping it alive and functioning. Now, not to bad-mouth anyone, but does it not seem logical that a "Biblical Research and Teaching Ministry" should have a vital and ongoing Research Department as its MAIN FUNCTION?

I rather suspect that if there even still is a research department there, it is way way down on the list of priorities with so much "busywork" to do to at least keep afloat what remains there presently.

When I first came to a fellowship with TWI I was thrilled at the name it had been given. It was direct and honest...The Way Biblical Research and Teaching Ministry, and its main BUILDING was referred to as the BRC (Biblical Research Center).

It seemed to make sense to me from the very beginning, that this is "the true ministry of Jesus Christ", because he said he was "the Way, the Truth, and the Life". Equating this together, the Founder called it simply "The Way". Now, Biblical Research is what his ministry did, and in that process was found The Truth. And as that Truth (from the research) was taught, it brought Life.

So, in other words, the very name of the ministry meant "The Way, the Truth, and the Life" -- or simply said, the "Ministry of Jesus Christ". That made a lot of sense to me. I was excited and proud in the 70's at the young age of 24 to be part of a Biblical Research Ministry whose purpose seemed to be to uncover truth which has been hidden for centuries and share that with people, as it was for many a year.

And of course the ministry was not (and is not) "perfect". Yet, I had noticed that when doctrine was changed, it was always because more had been discovered which made even "better sense" than what we had been teaching. The ministry was "dynamic" in that respect, because it was "open to change".

But something happened though (around 1988 or so) which was not really realized by many until it hit hardest (at least to my knowledge) around 1989. The ministry was having trouble. You may remember the years following that it was referred to as "the fog".

What seemed to follow after that is something very subtle I seem to have noticed. Many new policies were instituted about who to “fellowship with”, and many new terms were introduced to keep “members” in line, such as “Mark and Avoid”, and "Abandoned", etc, etc.

Even among the WAY CORPS presently, there are those who are considered “Way Corps Alumni”, meaning that, although they have not done something horrible enough to receive other titles (such as mentioned above), they have transgressed other policies of TWI, and are not considered in the “active Way Corps Houehold”, so to speak.

And even among regular “followers” there are some levels of “chastisement”. Say for instance someone decides to get a Home Mortgage Loan. That is considered “debt”! It is ok to still attend Fellowships and Local Functions, and one can even still teach as well. But because of that “error”, it is not permitted for them to become Fellowship Coordinators or attend Advanced Class Specials, etc, while that debt remains.

Of course the REAL reason for these added measures is clear to me now. It just was “not enough any more” as to exactly what was being taught (as now there were many around who all had learned this same “block of research”), but rather “whether or not they still attended fellowships with the Way International” in New Knoxville, OH, who were being called by them the “faithful remnant”.

It seemed horrifying to me, that after so many years it seemed that “The Way, The Truth, and The Life” ministry had become (somehow, in practice) "The Way, The Truth, The Life, and the Fellowship Ministry"!!!

Even today, TWI refers to itself as “The Way Biblical Research, Teaching, and Fellowship Ministry!!”

Now, this may sound silly to you, or perhaps picking on words like the Pharisees did in the gospels, but to me it is STILL ADDING TO THE WORD.

There was no “true requirement” for fellowship in the early church, per say; but as far as I can see, this ministry seemed to do just fine as it continued to confine itself to the one very essential task at hand which started it in the first place - Biblical Research and Teaching – and FELLOWSHIPPED AROUND THAT ALONE! There was plenty to be happy about as we learned and grew. (do remember that this “growing” was, and always should be the RESULT of the research and teaching.)

Once one strays from Biblical Research, there can be no real growth, and things just become stagnant.

Do you remember how excited people were when it was “discovered” that we were not “soldiers”, but “ATHLETES OF THE SPIRIT”? And how blessed we all were to see for ourselves about the “athletic terminology” in the book of Ephesians, etc?! The ministry went “all out” on that one, for sure! We had a full production with a symphony orchestra, all performed in the WOW Auditorium with the most modern MILLION DOLLAR CAMERAS, etc etc. And just everyone was looking into the details of that area of God’s Word and all in “the body” felt they had a part in it together.

But what gets TWI excited these days? To tell you the truth, I’m just not exactly sure any more!

(just an observation)

"Spec"

What a beautiful response. I haven't figured it all out yet, Mel...But I understand what you are saying - I am experiencing the same thing around here. But I think we come here because this is our familiar. You would be suprised though at how people have changed.

And as to you still being "In"...It's your call. Stay or go. No guilt about either decision. Go Big or Go Home.

Rachel

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Thank you so much for your objectivitity Rachael - and most especially for seeing the "good" in me. I mean no harm.

While is is true that I believe I really DO have something worthwhile to those who love to see how the scriptures fit together (without contradiction), I do not claim to be some sort of GURU with "all the answers" either!

Truth is, what I do have is rather "vast" - that is, it could take quite some time for someone to see what I have found - and I am sure that even what I have discovered about the "topic" thus far is merely "scratching the surface". I believe that it will be presented in such an orderly and logical fashion that anyone with a little common sense, and a respect for God (as being a most excellent author!) could see the point very clearly with a little patience.

However, to try and start a new post about it would surely start a rather large controversy, I am sure! I suspect that "inumerable tangents" would arise and before long the entire "concept" would seem so ridiculous that even fair-minded and objective readers would "just get lost in the shuffle" of it.

Even now, already things I have said are being taken out of context and twisted by those who do not care. (and I have yet to really present ANYTHING AUTHORITATIVE AT ALL ABOUT "my topic" TO THIS POINT!!!)

I would love to try and be kind to any of those who seem to ridicule without cause (supposing that they really did'nt mean to be that way), but more and more of them would take their place, and I would soon run out of time even trying to "catalog" just who is truly listening that they still have a chance to continue investigating for themselves, and see what I see.

What a confusing mess! To me it would be like trying to juggle a hundred objects at the same time!

Let it suffice at this...I am willing to share what I have for an individual or two to start with, and see what they think of it. Then perhaps I might have the courage to pursue it on a larger basis, being convinced that even some can indeed see it the way I would present it, and I am no longer "alone" with it.

Perhaps I have missed the mark and I have really nothing at all! That will be discovered in time sure enough, for I am sure there are many around here who know a whole lot more about the Bible than me. And in that event, I could just drop the whole thing if it can be sucessfully refuted in an honest and fair debate!

At least in that case, I will not have made a complete fool of myself in front of THOUSANDS, but just a couple, in the event that I am truly mistaken.

It is wrong to just try and force feed people. According to a certain verse, "they that hunger and thirst after righeousness" (basically the right way to do things) "shall be FILLED". And the word FILLED is "filled according to appetite".

How am I to know who is hungry for what I have to give - and to what extent? Why should I take the chance of trying to force a 7-course banquet down someone's throat who is merely only looking for a snack, or just a nice lunch or dinner? I will tell you how --- All I do is simply ASK:

Who thinks they are hungry enough for this "feast"?

I THINK THAT IS FAIR ENOUGH....The rest shall have to wait.

I Love Your Kind and Understanding Heart, Rachael!

I have decided to GO BIG! If it does not work, then I shall GO HOME, just like you suggested!

HA! HA!

Spectrum49 - aka - mystery (Mr. E.)

Thank you so much GarthP2000, Belle, and Mr. Hammeroni for responding. And thank you especially Belle for welcoming me to this wonderful site I accidentally discovered a couple of day ago or so!

I love jokes and such also just like you all, but at this time I need to inform you that you are in the process of breaking my heart. (I am sorry to say that, because I really don't want make you feel bad in return, but that you may understand and be careful not to make it much worse, for I could not take much more of it.)

The truth is that you are not taking me seriously, and (contrary to the advice in Proverbs 18:13) you are answering this matter before you have heard anything about it, which is not wise.

Listen to me please...I am not "itching" to "bump my gums" about some "new thing in the Word". I am not "anxious" or in some wild frenzy about it. If you don't want to hear, simply say so in plain words. Then my responsibility is to try to plant elsewhere. But please don't scoff at me. That hurts more than you all know! (and I know you don't really intend any harm, so that's not really a problem)

How would you know if this were just a silly notion from someone who is "hashing the Word to pieces", having really nothing at all, all the while supposing that looking into it would be just a big waste of time, unless you at least tried to take a look at it, and judge it according to its own merit?

I am writing to you now not about whether or not you ARE interested in this topic, but so you may understand things a bit and treat me with a little more kindness, that I don't suffer any more from the rhetoric. I suffer enough each day already over it from those whom I suppose should be caring the most, yet for 18 years now all it has done is to cause heartache, yet I just cannot let it go for it seems too important to give up on.

You see folks, I have been rather careful in not exposing much about myself thus far on this site because I am aware that many others visit here and I am still fellowshipping with TWI. For now, I am only being cautious about my identity, lest they could also read here what I REALLY THINK. SUPRISED??? And please don't ask me why I am still there after over 30 years, despite what I have seen! You all can relate to that. Maybe I'm just a "die hard". Maybe I'm just too "blind" to see what really goes on there. Maybe I am just too damned "forgivng", or too damned "patient". I have my reasons, and this "topic" might just be my way OUT, but I must do this carefully.

I have been attempting over the years to inform TWI about this "wonderful discovery". I have, in one way or another been trying to introduce it to every FELLOWSHIP, BRANCH, LIMB AND REGION COORDINATOR since its beginning around 1988. (long time to hold such a "silly notion", huh??!!)

It seems that none have ever "really listened". Thinking carnally, I could suppose that early on I could blame myself for not explaining it properly because I had "jumped the gun" without more detailed proof as it was developing. As time went by (and with nobody to help, no assistance offered, no "study partner", etc) I still managed to continue learning more. And I thank God for that. But even then, it still seemed that I lacked "ammunition" each time I approached the next leader after I had patiently waited for his reassignment and a replacement to arrive. Truth is, I really cannot blame myself because that is just PLAIN WRONG TO DO!

Well then, I suppose I could blame THEM for not seeming to care about me, because the are just "too damned busy" with the "work of the ministry"...weddings to plan, meetings and functions to put together, classes to run, other people's personal problems to attend to...especially among the "new grads", etc etc. Could I really blame them for not having enough "time" for me? I tried not to bug them much at all, or let them know how frustrated I was becoming over this.

I would simply approach one of them with a "little tidbit" of information, hoping they might become interested enough to ask more about it. That way, I wouldn't have to take up a lot of their time, and they could spend it rather on the many other things "on their plates" (which are pretty darned full already). Maybe I'm just too kind to them by allowing myself to continually stand in the "back of the line", choosing rather to suffer a bit while other people are taken care of.

But I'm afraid that these little bits of information were truly not given with much foundation under them (which they could have had for the asking), and somehow each time it seems that the "jury was in to render its decision" even before I arrived to discuss any more abou it. (they judged the matter before they got much evidence at all!)

Well, I cannot REALLY blame them any more than I can blame myself, now can I? To do that would be judging them, and acting as though they really didn't care at all! If I KNEW for SURE that this unbelief was "apeitheia" (know but don't care), I could leave them in a moment! But as long as I don't know that then it is safer to assume the unbelief is "apistia" (just don't know enough). And that is what keeps me "hanging on".

The true blame is not on people anyways, as we know, because we have an adversary. The best I could figure in order to "keep the peace" was to suppose that the time was not right for this in God's eyes...that it was ahead of its time.

So I waited...and waited.

I discovered a couple of things about it that actually contradicted what had been taught on that subject for over 50 years, and knew then that it was time to let them know, just to improve our understanding on the subject.

To make a long story short, it seems now that they do not care. I have it locked in so tight, that it just cannot be successfully refuted any longer. I have almost tried "forcing the issue", but now that borders on my "appearing evil", and I cannot afford to appear loud and angry, impatient, proud, and a host of other things which could easily enter in. Then I would be considered a fool for sure...and I cannot let that happen, for it would be my fault for starting it by going in that direction in the first place.

I am almost to the point of supposing that just as Jesus went to his own and was rejected, and said "Lo, I turn to the Gentiles", then I too, having something to say to those who I suppose should love me and who reject it as well, that "Lo, I turn to the Gentiles", meaning that I will take this elsewhere.

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I came to this site searching for help from many of those who I suppose still care for IT IS WRITTEN, just as much as those still within TWI "say" they do. If you continue to scoff at me, or ridicule, or tell me I am crazy about all this, or proud, or any such other thing before you even dare to check it out, then you are no better than them - perhaps worse, for that is only like rubbing salt in the wound, reminding me of all the suffering I have endured of them because of their lack of care for me in this matter over the years, for I have been through many such a thing during the course of this "investigation". Though I still manage to forgive them (supposing they know not what they do), I still hurt night after night wanting them to have it, and to change a bit of doctrine that they might see a wonderful gem as a result of a coupld of simple changes.

DO YOU SUPPOSE THEY STILL DESERVE IT FIRST (if there is anything to it at all)?

Or do you suppose I should try the same things here very long if I continue to get the same

uncaring responses I did from them?

Or do you suppose I might just leave this wonderful site which appeared from "nowhere" as a haven to rest a bit "from the fight", and just try and publish my work out in the WORLD instead?

What do you all suggest I do?

I love you. I believe you mean well. I just need some "true friends" again.

Mel

You Know You've Attained Dispensationalist Divine Status....

When what you have found (after you have discovered just what are the TRUE SEVEN ADMINISTRATIONS)

actually fits with the rest of the Bible - From START to finish!

You Know You've Attained Dispensationalist Divine Status....

When all you have found is also corroborated by that which God had also designed in Science.

(and is not limited only to only the areas of Sound and Light, but that's really not a bad start!)

You Know You've Attained Dispensationalist Divine Status....

When even all of this (as a result of the proper understanding of these divisions), opens up whole new

vistas of information in many of the "cleaner sections" of our Bibles. (Many notes will be there now,

where before were no notes at all!)

You Know You've Attained Dispensationalist Divine Status....

When all this lines up so well, that you find new meaning to the ORDER of the first 7 manifestations of

the gift of holy spirit in I Co 12, which line up perfectly with these administrations, and even with some

things as they are written IN ORDER in the First Chapter of the Bible itself!

And oh, by the way, I have something for you "scoffers" who think its funny about using different colored

magic markers for these administrations. (Whether you meant it or not, "Much truth is spoken in jest!")

Anybody REALLY INTERESTED in seeing what I have discovered about administrations? It is really the

"best of both worlds". Dr. Bullinger made some progress in this field, and Dr. Wierwille "refined" it a bit.

What I have is not only a combination of the best of both, but some additional information as well which

ought to keep you EXCITED for decades!

But above all folks, please excuse me for suggesting I have reached "Divine Status" concerning all this...

I was merely being a bit cute with the exact wording of your "thread", which I suppose was really only

to be a joke in the first place, right?

But what I have is really no joke. Anybody curious?

"mystery"

Hi T-Bone!

This is from the "new guy" on this website who thinks you and I would get along great, once we get to know each other better. (from "mystery" - for now) I have this to offer you concerning Prov 25:2:

"Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter."

Isn't it interesting to note that the words "glory" and "honor" in this verse are the same word? (strongs #03519)

Part of its definition implies abundance and riches, along with glory and honor.

It is as though God deems himself "rich" (see definition 1a) in being a bit mysterious about many things, but is so willing to freely impart them to all who seek after them, that they too may be "rich as a king" with this knowledge, just by acting like kings should...and that is merely to search out the matter. (Act like a king, then you will be one!)

After all, why should God make everything so plain that we become responsible for many things before we can really handle them properly? Then we would be living in self-condemnation for having many things, but not really knowing how to use them wisely. It is safer for God to just hide them a bit. Would you give the keys to your car to a 5-year-old, and send him off in it? I think not! As you remember, God will not allow anything to come your way that you cannot handle. (I Co 10:13) So do not be afraid to look into matters. If you are not yet ready for something, He will "put his foot down" to make sure you are not bothered with it yet.

And when the time comes that you can handle it...you will see that it is not really hidden so bad after all. THEN WOW! How rich can you be for not only the aquiring of it, but also having the ability to use it wisely as well!

You even said of yourself, T-Bone, "Now I find life to be so much more interesting in "the thrill of the hunt", armed with an insatiable desire to understand…to question…to wonder….But for me, mystery…searching…and the occasional discovery – that's what makes life intriguing. Like the surprises in relationships when you see a different side of someone. "

You also remarked, "It seems God does have a long suit in being mysterious – but I think curiosity is the spice of life."

And even more, "...how creation is filled with wonder and mystery. Why does this or that exist?...How does this or that work?...What's this or that all about?...."

Thanks for listening!

(mystery - for now)

Hello all!. I am new to this site, and am very interested in Biblical Research. I don't mean to interfere or contradict, and am always willing to change my thinking when something is said which makes more sense to me than what I have previously been taught.

I have this to offer for anyone who is interested, concerning the meaning of the phrase "evil day", or "evil days"... as seen in Ephesians 6:13.

Eccl 12:1 Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;

This chapter (for those who have ears to hear) contains a wonderful analogy of the time of one's physical life when it is near the end; sort of like the "autumn years" we refer to. In the Eastern culture, this time was referred to as the "evil days", simply because many of the things one could do as a younger person become more difficult as time goes by -- and we all go through these times to one extent or another. (this can be explained in detail for anyone to see for themselves -- just ask!)

This chapter warns about the regret one may have if he is to neglect God while he is still young enough to have a vital relationship with Him, and now is old looking back on his life as it is coming to a close, and has to answer to himself, "Just what true pleasure have I had in life", or "What have I really accomplished while I was here" so to speak, when now it is maybe all too late....(note: we are all "young", and it is never "really" too late to begin a vital relationship with God!)

Perhaps you may also get a glimpse of this by reading a few verses previous to the beginning of this chapter, as chapters were not included in the original manuscripts, and the true context actually begins sooner than Chapter 12, verse 1.

Now, also compare this with Ephesians 5:

15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

We do not redeem the time to the best of our ability merely because things are getting worse and worse in the world, "because the days are evil", so to speak. We do it because time itself for each ones of us is drawing nearer and nearer to "the end". We do all we can while we still can, "while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh", etc,etc -- that we can truly think we have done something good while we were here, and take pleasure in that.

The true meaning of the phrase "evil day" or "evil days" is really referring to not only the end of our lives personally, but to the events concerning this earth we live in as well. Time is drawing nearer and nearer every day to the end of both and we should do all we can every day as though it were our last. (within reason, ha ha - nobody is perfect!)

Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

We should endeavour to utilize all the resources our loving Father has supplied for us, that we may withstand the pressures of life, and come out winners, even as we get older, and right up until either our physical end or the return of Jesus Christ. Put on the "whole armour".

We stand each day as stong and vigilant as we are able to with what we understand from the Bible, whether that be a little or a lot. That is all we can do. We make up our minds to just STAND on what we know, and live as "more than conquerors" in every situation, for "in due season we shall reap, if we faint not".....

Thanks for listening all....

Love you!

"spectrum49" (for now)