spectrum49

edited for deletion...post not intended after all

God and I have it worked out.

Hi Dot!

Just read your disheartening story. You were certainly under some very austere circumstances. I consider it a brave thing you did to relate this incident, which probably was very difficult to write as you remembered vividly the horrid details.

But for the sake of others reading your post who may themselves be in similar trouble, I am proud that what you had written contains much about how you persevered through it all, and came out of it in the end, for that will be of immense help to them.

I do wish your desire for a true and meaningful relationship with a loving man will materialize in the future -- and soon; that is, if you still want it. You are most deserving of it!

Love,

Spec

PS: I also offer you a poem I wrote many years ago. I do hope you enjoy it...

Something Worth Giving

Is there something worth giving you can give to a friend?

Do it now while he’s living; do not wait till the end.

Though one’s mind holds all mysteries, knowledge and faith,

His deeds won’t be history without love; there’s no trace.

While bestowing one’s treasures to feeding the poor,

He can give without measure, yet one thing is sure:

Even giving his life for a great, noble cause

Will profit him nothing; without God’s love it’s lost.

Charity is giving God’s love to mankind,

And it’s given with cheerfulness; it’s not hard to find.

So study His word and share to begin,

And you’ll see that God’s charity is right there within.

Whatever you do for God, do it with might!

And share it with charity; fight the good fight.

So give what’s worth giving; God’s keeping the score;

So that now and in heaven you’ll receive your rewards.

Dont leave your kids alone with the paint either

OH MY GOD, mstar1!

:lol:

SPEC

A friend of mine took this candid photo of what this little guy's sister did to him!

What a riot! (except for the mommy!)

:lol:

Click on the pic to see it enlarged.

Enjoy!

Spec

PS: Forget the stuff below the picture...I don't know how to delete it....

Crying is prayer.

John 11:35 KJV

Jesus wept .

Comment: Was this unbelief?

DrWearWord,

Although Jesus was human and had emotions as we all do, I believe he had full control of them. I believe he purposely "allowed" this weeping so that others could see and appreciate the compassion he had. In the context we can see his desire for others to see the empathy he had with them over such a loss. We see this in the context.....

33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,

NOTE: IMHO, he was not troubled terribly as they were, but was rather alerted to the situation by this "troubled feeling". (Perhaps this "feeling" was revelation to him from His Father.)

34 And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see.

35 Jesus wept.

36 Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!

If he had truly been so agitated and remorseful, then how can we explain his confidence and faith to raise Lazaraus from the dead later on in the context, as he had tried to imply to Martha earlier in the context?

Spec

PS: Perhaps you already understood this yourself, but were checking to see if others agreed with you?

Back in the 70's I worked as a "roadie". I had the rare opportunity to work backstage for Peter Frampton. It was among his first "gigs" in America after having done well in England. He did a show for merely $5000 in a rather run-down theater which held only 300. We could tell he was not very pleased with the place.

I saw his guitar case backstage and opened it to see a BEAUTIFUL black Gibson. I play a bit myself, but am rather better at tuning them. As I plucked the strings, I noticed the high E string (the last one) was a bit flat, so I tuned it up. Little did I realize that if Peter had known that, I would be in BIG TROUBLE! To him, it is like BB King to his "Lucile".

I had the pleasure of escorting him across the street for a Live Interview with a local FM station (in Dayton Ohio). He was rather short, but gets up there a bit with 5" platforms. We talked about lots of stuff (but didn't smoke any together...ha! ha!) and had a good time.

When he played "Do You Feel Like I Do", you should have heard those 300 sound like 3000! WOW! Such an amazing talent he has!

Later on, he made it big with his "Frampton Comes Alive" album which went gold, and then platimum. We tried to get him back, but he was BIG CHEESE by then and the phone call ended with a remark from him I will not say here...har har...

So much for my "claim to fame".

Spec

This is just a silly comparrison.

I was wondering if any of you might agree with me to some extent...

Do you see some resemblance between these?

The new JQ Adams presidential dollar coin

AND

The Creature from the Black Lagoon

I do....

Spec

The ministry was supposed to be about studying the word of GOD and when something was different in the word from what was being taught ... then This supposed man of God promised to change the teaching and his own behavior and we did too.

As far as I can see that never happened.

If one were to ignore all the other stuff... This one thing ought to be very telling indeed.

Right on leafytwiglet! As a matter of fact, that is exactly why I left TWI.

I did study on my own, using the "tools" they supplied me with. All seemed fine unless I found a "different slant" on something which made more sense. Trying to show the "leadershi*" was like pulling teeth!

I eventually found something so wonderful it would have blown their socks off! However, in order to see THAT, it was necessary to "tweak" a couple of things which had been taught wrong since the beginning, concerning "administrations".

After probably "too long", I gave up on them, finally acknowledging their apparent APATHY. They were (and ARE, and always HAVE BEEN) steeped in their own tradition. I like to view it this way - As Jesus Christ came to "his own" and was rejected, he said "Lo, I turn to the Gentiles". In my own way, I say the same. They had their shot at it, and blew it. Now it is far from them, and so am I!

I finally understand their "take" on the following verse:

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

They believe it means to get to the point that you see what they found was CORRECT. If otherwise, it may be necessary to read your "blue book" again for the 100th time! HA!

But we know different, 'cause we can think for ourselves instead of being the mindless puppets they wanted us to be. Let them stay STAGNANT! Let their numbers, and their land, and their holdings, and their finances continue to dwindle until there is nothing left at all!

Spec

:)

PS: leafytwiglet: Thanks for the help and compliment with my avatar the other day. (There is much behind that....LOL!)

The police recently arrested a man named, "Abraham..."

They claim it was for spilling goat blood in a public park and creating a possible "bio hazard". They fined him for starting a fire without a permit, they prosecuted him for gross and unusual cruelty to animals and they also charged him for defacing city property. As they hauled him off to the police station he kept ranting about how, "The Lord God told him to do it."

He retorted, "I wasn't really gonna go through with it."

Comment: Love is anti-matter.

BUT HUMOROUS

Spec

:D

It seems that there may be quite a bit of interest in LIGHT within this thread, so I will speak a bit myself – for both “science lovers” and for “lovers of the Bible” – but especially for those who like to see how the two equate together.

A well known and brilliant Astrophysicist (Bernard Haisch) made an important discovery along with some of his colleagues in the following article which begins:

Brilliant Disguise: Light, Matter and the Zero-Point Field

Is matter an illusion? Is the universe floating on a vast sea of light, whose invisible power provides the resistance that gives to matter its feeling of solidity? Astrophysicist Bernhard Haisch and his colleagues have followed the equations to some compelling -- and provocative -- conclusions.

Link to short article

My understanding is that even if they are correct in assuming the Light in Genesis One represents the Zero-Point (Energy) Field, that in itself is still a physical thing which God MADE, so consider the following:

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The above verse indicates that much can be understood about the invisible things [spiritual matters] and even about God’s eternal power and Godhead merely by observing what is BEHIND these physical things. (And BTY, Genesis One contains many of these things which are made, which can lead to much understanding by observing their spiritual counterparts, behind the scenes, so to speak!)

Now, as I was saying, even if Bernard Haisch is correct, he has only found yet another physical thing which was made, and behind it is more! Whatever man can find and examine has yet something else behind it – and behind that – to infinity!!

As for Light, it has many meanings: truth, good, wisdom, the written scriptures, (Jesus Christ was also called “great light”), and do remember that God called himself Light! And darkness is just the opposite of light.

It is evident that LIGHT encompasses just about everything! God is using that term to try to explain many many things about the universe, life, science and physics, etc, and not to forget – even those are only representative of the other side! (reminds me a bit of The Matrix – ha! ha!).

Consider even our computers which work on binary. Light and darkness equate to the 1’s and 0’s which produce EVERYTHING a computer can do! Logically, things are either TRUE or FALSE and YES or NO (gates may be OPEN or CLOSED). Switches (transistors) may be ON or OFF (+15v or 0v), etc. Even our brains run on binary. We compare only two thoughts at a time, render a result and compare the next item to that finding. (try adding 1+2+3 = 6). You can only test two numbers at a time, and add the next to it. Even the most complex algorithms are based upon BINARY! Light and darkness represent the same things, and even wisdom or folly...etc...

Now, speaking of physical light, it is true that we only see a tiny portion of the entire spectrum of light. We see what is termed the Visible Spectrum. That is what God has designed our eyes to see. And we should endeavor (for the most part) to stay within that boundary.

It is interesting to note that Genesis One does contain the visible spectrum, starting with Light, which may be refracted into colors (for those who know: ROY-G-BIV). For those who have eyes to see, it is all there!

But be ever mindful that whatever you do find or discover in the physical realm has something else behind it – and behind that – and behind that – FOREVER!!

Ponder these things, my friends!

Spec

:)

I first took PFAL in 1975 and went WOW in ’77.

It was sort of funny preparing to go “on the field”. Some things “came up” which tried to dissuade me from keeping my promise to go. I remember well the conversation I had with my father (who really didn’t approve of this “cult”) just prior to leaving…

“You are what?!” he said, “You are letting your car get repossessed because you are not supposed to have any debts before you go? And you are turning down a job offer for twice what you ever made in your life? And you are leaving a new girl friend behind? And you even told me that one of your higher-up ministers [Walter Cummins] is taking a giant step “down” to lead the twig you are in? And for all this, you are taking off with 3 people you haven’t even met yet to go somewhere in the country that you don’t even know about? And when you get there you won’t have a place to stay, or a job waiting? Melvin…..you’re NUTS!!” (Note: In hindsight, I guess it was a little stupid, huh? Ha! Ha!)

We left for Wheeling WV on a Saturday morning (just after the ROA was over, of course) and had to camp out in a KOA for a week when we got there. (2 guys – 2 girls) We woke up the following Saturday to discover that the guy who drove us had left already and was heading back home to California – and all my “little memories” were in his trunk. I had only kept the “most important things”, as was suggested by the leadership. (I never got them back!) He had been complaining about not having a home to stay in. However, we found housing that same day. The landlady looked at me kinda funny with those two girls. I felt like Jack Tripper in “Three’s Company”!

During the year, one of the girls got involved with someone I had witnessed to and had taken the class. She got back into drugs with him and left. The other girl fell in love with a nice guy who had been coming, who had also taken the class, and had two cute young boys from a previous marriage. (Instant family for her!)

SO – I was alone the rest of the year from about March to August. (I somehow managed to “peddle” two more classes) I admit that in some ways it was the best year of my life. It’s not so much that the ministry was looking after me, but I did learn to trust God, who always seemed to come through for me. I had been somewhat afraid to be on my own for the first time, and that happened. But all was OK; it wasn’t so bad after all, learning to pay rent and bills and cook for myself.

After the year was over, I married a waitress from where I had been working my part-time job all year. (the marriage lasted 9 years)

There is a lot more to the story, but I’ve typed enough for now, so will let you all go.

Thanks for listening.

Spec

Wow Wordwolf!

What you showed was so right-on! I believe this topic is now covered in sufficient enough detail!

It is amazing how the people involved seemed to know LCM's very heart, thinking, motives, ego, pride,

concerning all aspects of this AOS project. They were no fools, including you.

By the way, I had to chuckle at your mention of "Gunnysack". Ha! Ha! I get a kick out of stuff like that

here at GreaseSpot, like "Loy-Boy" and "PLAF", etc. How silly it all seems now, looking back.

Thanks for the heart - and especially the "levity"!

Spec

Let's see, a few of the previous posts about this....

Thanks for the assistance WordWolf! I am rather new here, and should have realized this is an old topic. Who here at GreaseSpot could not have noticed such a blatant similarity between these two productions? (My wife and I rather saw this on our own, though.)

However, your response caused me to study just a bit about the site here and learn how to use their wonderful SEARCH ENGINE!

I learned how to use boolean operators to narrow the search and also noticed it seems best to "list the matches as posts". I simply entered: +staying +alive +athletes +spirit. The results were few and simple.

Thank you for "alerting me" about this nice feature, and have a good day!

:)

Spec

Hi All!

Did TWI base its presentation of “Athletes of the Spirit” on the same theme which was behind the movie “Staying Alive”? I should have noticed this long ago myself when it first came out. Nevertheless, my wife brought this to my attention recently, so I first watched the movie and then TWI’s “original” production again on VHS, finding so many similarities that it I CANNOT BELIEVE they are coincidental!

I’ve made up MY MIND – you decide for yourself – here are some facts:

First of all, consider the timing. “Staying Alive”, starring John Travolta was released in mid-1983, and was a major success. Allow a few months to a year or so for the public to either see it at the movies or wait until its release in the video stores. Now it is mid-1984. Consider TWI choosing this “hot idea” to EMMULATE. Allow about a year or so to write the script, build sets, score music, have TWI orchestra learn the score, the players memorize their lines and practice the choreography. Then after all of that, try teaching LCM how to “dance” – if you can really call it that – HEY! – better make it at least another 6 months after that thought! We are now around the beginning of 1986. Give ‘em all another 6 months to rehearse it and VOILA! – You are now pretty damn near the Fall of 1986 – “Athletes of the Spirit” was released in the Autumn of 1986. Now, I could be sorely mistaken, but it sure looks to me like they didn’t waste any time considering, except to get busy PLAGERIZING! NEED I SAY ANY MORE? But there IS more…….

The movie is about a dancer who gets a part in a Broadway play entitled “Satan’s Alley” and is about a man who descends into hell to do battle with demonic spirits. His main adversary is a seductive woman, who wears crimson-red tights and heavy eye make-up.

The TWI’s production is about a man also doing battle against devil spirits, his main adversary being a seducing spirit, played by a woman wearing crimson-red tights and heavy eye make-up….hmmmm!

In both shows steel cages of several heights with platforms atop were used for various dancers to perform on, and the “evil woman” usually descended from the highest one to get to the man on the floor below to tempt him. Many other demons were either writing (oops! editing now = writhing) on the floor, or stood up to fight against the man. In both cases, at times you hear the groaning of demons in the background; and again in both, many of the other women’s tights are similarly designed with sequins.

In both productions there was a lot of smoke near the floor, many lasers or spotlights to indicate lightening, and of course lots of thunder.

The lead dancer Travolta wore a headband and so did LCM, except Craig’s was multi-colored like a spectrum (the result of the refraction of light) signifying himself as godly because God calls Himself light in the Bible. Their costumes were also similar in fashion; sometimes tights, sometimes loin cloths.

In both scenarios, the final act is winning against the seductive female demon. In the movie, the man holds her in the air as a bolt of lightening strikes her from above, and TWI’s method is to have Craig give her (the “antichrist”) a fatal karate-chop while bent over his knee. Was he playing Jesus Christ or God to do that? (I thought he was just an ordinary believer who rose up to be a leader…hmmmm!)

Maybe many of you out there remember these two shows, or can watch them again and respond to this post with even more valuable input! Thank you all in advance!

One last note: If you cannot find the “Athletes of the Spirit” for FREE, I would not suggest paying even a nickel for it. If you want to pay to see something, go rent an old “spaghetti western” or something. (no offense to Old West fans out there! – Ha! Ha!)

SPEC

Did you ever consider that a wife's bad coffee could be considered as "grounds" for divorce?

Another:

Man to waitress: This coffee tastes like MUD!

Waitress to man: Well -- it was GROUND this morning...

Excellent post Spectrum49!

I wonder if the OT priests used any of the tithe for fancy motorcycles, classic cars, private jets or motor coaches.

Now, that's funny Waysider!

I rather suppose it was used TO LIVE ON! (and not "high on the hog" -- because hogs "split the hoof" and were forbidden -- LOL!)

I also doubt it was used to support the need for "Biblical Research and Teaching" either, because (for one) the stuff was just being written and recorded at the time -- and concerning "teaching", what does it really cost to run your mouth like they do?

Spec

PS: Now concerning fancy motorcycles, I do seem to remember reading about many "triumphs" though...(groan!)

HI ALL!

I'm not completely sure this comment is what was sought for in this thread, but for those interested I offer the following concerning the "tithe":

As I understand it, the tithe in the written law was required (among the tribes of ISRAEL) only by Farmers and those who raised Livestock. It was to be one-tenth from eleven of the twelve tribes, and was given to those in the tribe of Levi (the ministers) who were to take care of the temple, etc. being excluded from "secular work".

Within Levi, were another group called the Priests. They served IN the temple; the others in Levi served the temple itself. Another requirement was for the "collectors" in Levi to separate out ten-percent of the total tithe (one one-hundreth, in other words) and give that directly to the priests, so they may EAT. (By the way, this portion was to be the BEST OF THE BEST, of crops and animals.)

Other uses for the animals for the Priests within Levi were for sacrifice, including all the details concerning what to do with the the blood, etc, according to the law.

The ministers in Levi were to take care of the building, adorning and maintaining of the temple itself. They also managed what was left of the tithe -- the remaining nine-tenths which were not given to the Priests. This provided food for them also. What was left over remained in the "Storehouse" and was to be used as the rest of the tribes of Israel had NEED. In times of famine or trouble, it was measured back to them, so that Israel as a whole did not have to suffer.

As for the rest of Israel who had professions other than farming or raising livestock, it was available at certain times throughout the year (like during the various Feasts and Festivals) to contribute to Levi "freewill offerings". These could be anything such as cloth, precious metals, pottery, etc. which was used to adorn the temple, and also to provide a "base" for distribution among all Israelites when NEEDS arose.

NOW -- isn't it curious that TWI "required" everyone to give the tithe, no matter what they did for a living? And just how much of that ever went back to the people when a need arose among them? If you suffered loss, it was because you did not "properly operate the principles of believing", etc. and you were left to suffer for your actions, or lack thereof because you "deserved it". (There were however, perhaps some isolated instances where TWI did step in to help in a dire situation, but it was not their "usual practice", as it was among Israel.)

Another thing: Mal 3:10 says to "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there be meat (does it say MONEY?) in mine house..." Remember, the reason for it in the first place was so that the tribe of Levi COULD EAT! -- So why not merely provide TWI with FOOD itself instead of money? And if you wanted to give money or other things of value, that was up to you. And there was no requirement UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES as to any amount to be given by FREEWILL OFFERINGS (other than meat and grain)!

And besides all that, we all have been taught that we are NOT under "The Law", so why the requirement at all? The word "tithe" does not even appear in any of the Epistles written to us, so why does TWI try to apply it to ALL THE FOLLOWERS?...

As their prime example they use Abraham, who "gave tithes to Melchisedec". They say that since our believing should be based upon Abraham (see Romans) and not the law, then we should do as he did EVEN BEFORE the LAW was written for Israel in tablets of stone.

So just what did Abraham (then Abram) do? And just who was this "Melchisedec, the King of Salem"? As the story goes, Abram's nephew Lot and his family, friends and possessions were take captive in Sodom where he lived. Abram became minded to go to battle, which he did, sucessfully rescuing them all.

Upon returning from the battle, the record states that Abram gave "tithes of all" to the King of Salem (Melchisedec). (And remember now, this all took place before the "written law".) In studying the history of this region (from secular books) I found there was a requirement where Abram lived that one-tenth of any spoils taken within that land were to be given to the King - or suffer a severe penalty! (Know what happens these days if you don't file your Tax Forms to the IRS?) Basically, all he did was to merely obey the Law of the Land where he was living -- Later on, God informed him to GET OUT OF THERE...

Consider also that you never EVER see another account of Abram giving another tithe! But TWI would have you believe that he did it faithfully "every paycheck", and that you should act like he did as an example.

Even later on when the LAW was in effect, the tithe was not received "every week", but rather either at harvest time (for crops) or when cattle, sheep, etc gave birth. And, as mentioned before, things other than the "required tithe" -- of FOOD!) were by "freewill offerings" at Festivals and Feasts during the year.

So just who do the "leaders" at TWI think they are to be authorized by God to receive tithes from ALL the people -- Levitical Priests during this Age of Grace?!! And why receive AT LEAST A TENTH (bare minimum) of EVERYTHING YOU HAVE EACH WEEK? And where is their STOREHOUSE for the grain and meat they are supposed to be receiving? There is no such thing there. And just how is this "abundant sharing" treated? Is it shared among EVERYONE so as to exist an EQUALITY among the ENTIRE MINISTRY?

For the most part, unless you wear a Corps Ring, YOU DON'T EVER SEE ANY OF IT. You are taught to understand that you have to suffer consequences for your unbelief -- and "God help you" if you do not continue to faithfully tithe and abundantly share even during your own desperate times, for that is when you should do it ALL THE MORE or suffer even worse -- BULL! And if you do wear one of those rings, you only receive just enough that you may be the SLAVE they taught you to be FOR THEM in Training. The "Lions Share" goes to the Trustees and the Reverends on "the Field"!

Please forgive the lack of proper documentation in this post...I trust you all can read the scriptures for yourselves. Providing that information would have made this rather lengthy response even longer.

And please forgive any slight errors in "my version" of this subject of tithing. I know it is not "perfect". But I do welcome your critique and comments -- especially the "favorable ones" -- Ha! Ha!

Love,

"Spectrum49"

Two blondes across the river from each other: One yells out, "How do I get to the other side?" The other yells back, "But you ARE on the other side!"

A construction worker asked his buddy, "Do you know where I can find a pair of dikes?" His friend replied, "Sure! Just go downtown to Main and 5th Ave Friday night about midnight!"

A termite walks up to a fence at the Grease Spot Café and says, "I like your post."

Nice One T-Bone! (Made it up, huh?)

AS FAR AS I HAVE SEEN, THIS POST HAS GOTTEN WAY WAY OUT OF HAND. IT HAS BEEN TAKEN OVER. THAT'S JUST FINE AND GOOD, SINCE THE SIMPLE ANSWERS HAVE ALREADY BEEN GIVEN, MOSTLY ON PAGE ONE.

MUCH OF THE REST OF THIS IS ONLY HERESAY, WHEN AT FIRST THE ENTIRE TOPIC WAS MERELY TO SEE WHAT THE BIBLE HAD TO SAY ABOUT THE SUBJECT OF HOMOSEXUALITY. THAT MUCH HAS BEEN PRESENTED AS CLEARLY AND LOGICALLY AS WAS NECESSARY.

MY ADVICE TO THOSE WHO WANT TO CONTINUE THIS BY ADDING MORE AND MORE TO WHAT HAS ALREADY BEEN ANSWERED IS SIMPLE:

I FIND THAT THERE IS NO REST HERE. AND IT IS ONLY BECAUSE THOSE WHO KNOW THE ANSWERS ARE CONTINUING VERY HARD TO CONVINCE OTHERS WHO REALLY DONT CARE TO KNOW IN THE FIRST PLACE. THOSE OTHERS ARE ONLY USING THIS POST AS A JUMPING BOARD TO THROW IN THEIR 2-CENTS WORTH, AND ARE FAST TURNING THIS ENTIRE POST INTO AN ARGUMENT WHICH NOBODY WILL WIN! IT IS A BLATANT WASTE OF TIME FROM HERE ON! IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THIS IS THE TRUTH -- THEN READ FOR YOURSELVES:

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Proverbs 29:9 If a wise man contendeth with a foolish man, whether he rage or laugh, there is no rest.

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IF YOU ARE WISE, THEN YOU HAVE ALREADY FOUND THE ANSWER TO THE ORIGINAL POST FAR BEFORE THIS THREAD. DON'T WASTE ANY MORE OF YOUR TIME HERE, WHEN THERE ARE PLENTY OF BETTER PLACES TO READ AND CONSIDER GOOD OLD HONEST DOCTRINAL PRESENTATIONS FOR THOSE WHO WANT ANSWERS FROM THE SCRIPTURES THEMSELVES!

STOP FUELING THIS RAGING FIRE AND IT WILL EITHER DIE OUT OF ITS OWN ACCORD, OR ELSE MERELY BECOME 100% FILLED WITH THOSE WHO ARE LOOKING FOR NOTHING ELSE BUT TO ARGUE, OR TO PRESENT THEIR OWN UN-BIBLICALLY-SUBSTANTIATED VIEWS. AND JUST WHO IN THE DOCTRINAL FORUM CARES FOR ANY OF THAT? THE INTRUDERS NEVER BELONGED HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!

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Proverbs 26:20 Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth.

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AND IF THE STRIFE CEASES NOT, THEN WHO CARES? THE WISE AT HEART HAVE ALL ALREADY REMOVED THEMSELVES. THE REMAINING FOOLS CAN JUST FIGHT AMONG THEMSELVES!

AND ONE LAST THING: I WOULD NOT WANT TO WASTE EVEN ENOUGH TIME TO MERELY READ THE TITLE OF THAT BOOK -- LET LET ALONE ITS CONTENTS!

I'M OUTTA HERE!

Spectrum49

Forgive me all, but I tend to be more analytical, allowing the scriptures to speak plainly and simply, though they are also contain tremendous depth, in order to convince the “gainsayers” as well. In answer to the original question in this post concerning whether or not homosexuality is a sin (wrong in God’s eyes) – and the scriptures which back that point of view up – I offer the following in some simplicity, that most may get the point God makes on this subject:

The very first thing for humans to do was given in Gen 1:28 -- “Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth.” Now we all know this is possible only with a man and a woman. To do otherwise would be in direct contradiction to this first “admonition”. We are also instructed to be likeminded. So, as a rather extreme example of the folly of this behavior, let us assume that EVERYONE decided homosexuality was the way to go. -- Then, when the present population have all died, say 120 years or so from then at best, there would be nobody left at all! -- Remember the goal of being fruitful and multiplying was to REPLENISH the earth, NOT to completely ANNIHILATE IT !!

As far as scripture to the point is concerned, Romans 1 says it most plainly – and, in order to keep this more simple to begin with, we will not delve into the OT example it refers to...

--------------------------------------------------------------

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

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Quite simply, God refers to this as VILE affection. Affection yes, but VILE. Do we need to get out our lexicons and concordances yet and do a study on this word “vile”? If we wanted this to become more complicated, I suppose that is a further option to be used if so needed.

God then informs us that there is a natural way things were designed by Him to work, but that this “vile affection” is a way which is AGAINST that nature. In my eyes, this rather excludes those who believe homosexuals have merely been "born that way". How could that be true if indeed that behavior is in itself AGAINST NATURE?

The truth about how God Himself views this topic is rather plain and simple thus far. To me, it seems a shame for me to even continue at this point, but since God does, that's perfectly fine with me as well!

Later on we see that God describes this as “working that which is UNSEEMLY”. Do we yet need a concordance or lexicon? How about simply using Webster’s if one has a somewhat limited vocabulary? Yet, I believe most have already gotten the point here as to whether or not God desires this sort of action to be performed at all...

Next, God informs us that such action will result in some adequate recompense (consequence). Do we now suppose that it would be some wonderful and blessed reward? I think not....

Finally, He calls this an ERROR If we were to have learned ANYTHING from what has already been said, I think the simplest thing to see would be this point alone – that women who lust after women and men who lust after men is an ERROR.

I believe that simply makes the point – at least it should for those who want to base their morality on what God has authored and designed for us to see in the Bible, which contains all to do with LIFE and godliness -- (II pet 1:3) -- As I said in the beginning, it is not God's wish to have us do that which would surely ERASE ALL MANKIND FROM THE EARTH IN ONE GENERATION'S TIME !!

Logically speaking,

Spectrum49

PS: On a side note, it may be helpful to realize, folks, that the first two humans were Adam and Eve – not Adam and STEVE! (Ha! Ha!) :)

Funny Belle! I used that machine gun thing myself once to someone so proud of her cross. She was dumbfounded; having nothing to say, she just avoided me from then on.

I tried another thing once while trying to share about God with someone. It seems that we could never see eye to eye on anything, and I was just wasting my time with him. But he did seem to indicate he believed that God is so wonderful and kind that he would not allow anything bad to happen to anyone because God IS LOVE.

Wanting to agree with him on SOMETHING, ANYTHING, I got the BRIGHT IDEA to say to him, "Well, at least everyone gets to go to heaven in the end." He perked up gladly and said, "Now you're talking! I have always believed that myself too!"

Then I quipped back at him, "But not everybody gets to STAY THERE!" (Ha! Ha!)

That sure shut him up!

Spectrum49

it speaks to me, of the juvenile mindset the organization itself had with regard to honest research.

If the work is original, yet faults the proclivities of the upper ups, we bury it..

If the work is good enough, and flashy enough to draw in more crowds, we steal it..

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Wow Mr. Hammeroni! I guess I didn't REALLY read what you had to say until recently. Very interesting observation! Makes perfect sense to me! If somebody really DOES have something worth while to share, then consider God's work in that situation, Who really does not like us to "give our pearls unto swine" ! !

In an effort to keep this Word "sacred", God himself could intervene and do everything He could to keep "the swine" from STEALING IT AWAY, and merely using it for their own benefit to DRAW MORE CROWDS, etc.

That could explain to me why I may have had little success in trying to "reach" the ministry concerning something very VALUABLE INDEED. It is NOT as though they did not care for it (which perhaps they really don't after all). It is NOT as though much confusion and wasted time has come about from it over the years, because it seemed that the leadership "did not have the time for it." (and they are so busy with their own agenda that it IS that way anyways) It is NOT because that over the years while it was developing that I merely lacked the PROOF they needed to understand it. (after all, I do believe anyone with half-a-brain could see it if they wanted to try).

It is as you had implied.....perhaps their only interest in it would be to PLAGERIZE it and use it for their own agenda of "peddling more Foundational Classes" in order to amass more crowds with more Abundant Sharing $$ to continue, ad infinitim!

But it seems that perhaps GOD ALMIGHTY may have been "assisting" all along in some way to make sure TWI could NEVER STEAL IT! At least that explanation puts GOD in charge of the situation!

PLEASE tell me that makes some sort of sense to you!

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And for you, Socks:

QUOTE (Of Socks)

"We'd quack on for hours if you let us, back in the day, about "it" being "The Word, it's the Word, what's the Word say, we're here for the Word, the Word the Word the Word" and that's fine. But in many ways it was like finding gold in the hills somewhere and then celebrating over striking it rich. Come Monday morning though somebody's going to have to grab a shovel and a pick."

END QUOTE

Perhaps they were on the verge of actually discovering the Gold in the Hills, as you said. It seems that they were on the right track, but decided what they had already WAS the "motherload". And they stopped at that, believing it was "good enough". "It works for us." "We don't need any more." "Look at all the followers we have already!" "Let us NEVER CHANGE A THING FROM HERE ON!" "And if anyone even DARES to try to change us with any "additional research" beyond the RICHES we have already, we MUST SHUT THEM DOWN!!!!"

And Socks...I love what you said -- "Come Monday morning though somebody's going to have to grab a shovel and a pick."

FYI, for me, "Monday morning" came quite a while ago. I dared to grab a shovel and a pick. Too bad that TWI did not continue just a little bit further and settled for what they already had, which is NOTHING in comparrison to what is REALLY AVAILABLE! Keep in touch, my friend....

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I LOVE GREASESPOT! It makes one THINK AND CONSIDER!

I don't know many of you yet, but I have gotten really aquainted to Belle, and to T-Bone, and now perhaps Socks and somewhat as well with many others. I am happy to have met all of you, and look forward to sharing more with you.

And I believe that, in time, I will have the opportunity to become closer to many more of you "greasespots" -- But I have just a bit more "work" to do in the meantime....

So, y'all believe with me for success, and keep me in your prayers..........OK??

I LOVE YOU!

Spectrum49 (hidden meaning there for damn sure!)

aka: "Mystery" - more of the same, and also just being "cute" because my last name begins with an "E". Get it?

(Mr. E.)

SOCKS!

Well done, my friend! Excellent information there! Exactly what I was looking for!

Well folks, this might see a bit off topic, but I started this post so I suppose I can continue any way I like with it. Ha! Ha!

View this as you may -- it is only an OBSERVATION. It is my own thought, and it makes sense to me. Let's see if anyone else can agree with it...

It is about TREES in general. (and I am certainly no authority on botany, by any stretch)

TWI structured itself like a tree, most likely because of the verse in a Psalm, "He shall be like a tree, planted by the waters..." with twigs, branches, limbs, trunks, root, etc. But they never actually let it function as a tree would in nature.

They agree that it is the root which gathers in the nutrients and moisture from the soil, and distributes this "nourishment" throughout the tree. This they do from TWI every Sunday, and 6 times a year with the magazine, etc.

And we know that the leaves on the tree (which equate to the "followers") supply needed nutrients as well, and TWI is HAPPY to accept that from each leaf in the form of MONEY.

But my beef is that leaves themselves on a REAL TREE do something very special for the growth of the entire tree. It is called photosynthesis. To my knowledge, the leaves gather in SUNLIGHT (energy, etc) directly from the sun and convert it into glucose (a special kind of sugar) which is transported through the twig, to the branch, limb, trunk, and then to the root. The root collects this and distributes it back to the tree where it is needed.

To me, this "energy" collected from "the source", as it were, is like a simple follower having worked the Word and found something of value for the whole ministry. Yet, there seems no avenue available at TWI for such things. The tree is attempting to survive by the nutrients it has found IN THE GROUND only.

Now, the ground contains nutrients which were part of that which "used to be". That is, other trees which have died and decayed, along with other living things now decayed -- sort of like "fossil fuel". To me this equates to that which was part of what was originally taught in PFAL. Yet even that (and some have noticed the plagerism from at least one work of Bullinger's (How to Enjoy the Bible --- it reads just like PFAL --- if you every looked at it). I call this "fossil fuel".

Once that nutrient is exhausted, there is only one way to get more of it. The roots need to expand outward! And this cannot happen just by drinking in the moisture after the rain. Photosynthesis provides the root with essential food in order for the root to expand into "new territory". And also, even that which is supplied by the leaves is itself just like that which is in the ground, because it contains energy, just like the fossil fuel has retained it from long ago.

Without accepting what the leaves have to offer, TWI has become stagnant, and shall remain that way. Trees would die it it were not for photosynthesis being in operation.

Just a thought -----

Spec

I agree with most of you as well. While it is rather sad to hear about all the "plagerism" and such, I am very thankful for many things from the ORIGINAL PFAL Class, no matter "just where" it really came from. It had such heart! To learn that the Bible, when properly understood does not contradict itself was a wonderful discovery for me.

I still work the scriptures using the Biblical Keys we were shown and have found many wonderful things we were NOT TAUGHT which bless me tremendously.

It used to be that when something was discovered which made "more sense" than what was origianally taught, there was a change. TWI used to be meek enough to ACT on it. Nowadays, you run yourself into a "brick wall" even trying to introduce such things.

Here is an example of a "change" made:

In PFAL, VPW (discussing the manifestations in I Co 12ff) said something to the effect that "These are not in any particular order here because it is simply a list." I remember the "amusing rhetoric" when he was talking about TONGUES -- "Well, something has to be last! Oh! -- but YOU said it was LAST -- Well, it's NOT LAST, its SECOND LAST!" (fond memories -- ha! ha!)

But later on, he put out a little research paper called "Numerics and the Manifestations" - available in the Advanced Class - which goes into quite some depth about how these manifestations REALLY ARE IN ORDER, even though they are not actually NUMBERED IN ORDER, which (by the way) would be a "step stronger" to me as a figure of speech.

I too, had seen that truth myself from working the Word on my own, and was very refreshed to see it had been changed.

I'm "afraid" though, that TWI never did what the Founder wanted after he was gone - and that was to continue taking the Word FURTHER than he did. That takes listening to the rest of the "TREE", so to speak - and that does not seem "available" these days. All in all, I think TWI has become "traditionalized" by holding onto much error which could be changed if they REALLY looked into issues brought by others NOT ON STAFF OR CORPS etc, instead of ignoring their findings until they just get fed up and leave!

Many have become rather bitter of even most of what was taught in PFAL (as we see many places on this site).

However, I myself am thankful for those things I was taught which DID (and still do) make sense. And when I hear something better, I change, for I just cannot help it - because I am convinced of my own free will!

Great comments by most on this post.

Spec