spectrum49

I always wondered why God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil right smack in the middle of the garden Eden (directly next to the tree of life) where either Adam or Eve was bound to find it.

Anyway, I think the fall of A & E was bound to happen: you had two innocent humans (what did they know?), the tree was there beckoning, the serpent was there goading Eve on. God specifically told them not to eat the fruit, but did He really expect them to forever resist the temptation? Could God have foreknown the outcome?

Forgive me soul searcher, but you almost sound like you believe God intentionally set man up "for a fall". Do you suppose the same thing is true when wise and mature parents instruct their children?

Do they know ahead of time that the children will sometimes disobey? Are they instructing their kids to "set them up" or to keep them on "the right track", so they may grow up safe and healthy?

SPEC

:)

Please forgive the length of this post, but I considered it important enough to share what I have on the manifestations (of the gift of holy spirit) once and for all - in detail...

When were born physically, the seed contained all that we needed. All the potential for what we were to become was inherent in the seed from our father (and in what the mother contributed as well). After being born we were nourished with food, etc, and grew.

The new birth is just like that. All that we need for our spiritual life is contained in the seed [Greek word is spermo] from God. We receive the one gift of holy spirit which alone carries with it all the potential for living spiritually. (I call this our "spiritual DNA".) There has been literally no end of confusion among many Christians by supposing we need to receive something extra for our spiritual life – they erroneously call these "the gifts of the spirit". We shall see that we already have all of these to begin with – and that God calls these manifestations, not gifts.

To see this we will be looking very closely at 1Co 12:

1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual [text is pneumatikos – spiritual matters, things of the spirit], gifts [the word gifts is not in the text] brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

Now, spiritual matters do include gifts, but not all spiritual matters are gifts. God has devoted three entire chapters (1Co 12-14) to cover the subject of spiritual matters. We see the context come to a close in the following verse:

1Co 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

So we see that God started by saying he doesn’t want us to be ignorant concerning spiritual matters, and concluded by saying that if anybody doesn’t want to hear about it, then just leave him alone – let him be ignorant. Christian teachers are not to force feed anyone. If someone is hungry and asks, then we feed him until he says he has had enough to eat – this is the only polite way to be!

1Co 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

God continues to instruct the Corinthians about some spiritual matters. Then in verse 4 He mentions the word gifts – [Greek is charisma – from this we get our English word charismatic, meaning gifted.]

We must watch the context very closely to look for any changes. Now we are talking about gifts (which are included within spiritual matters).

Next, we will see about administrations and operations, which are also spiritual matters:

1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

Now, in the next verse, watch how it changes!

1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

Notice we have now changed the context from gifts and administrations and operations to the manifestation of the spirit. It is the Greek word phanerosis, not charisma (gift)! And it says, but the manifestation. This word but sets this in stark contrast to that which preceded.

It goes on to say that this is given to every man. This cannot mean that everyone on the planet has it! We must remember that in the context God is talking to "brethren" (verse 1). Brothers have the same father. God is talking to his children; they are the ones which have the ability to manifest this spirit. The others do not even have it to begin with.

So, it says the manifestation of the spirit – that means all of it – anything which may be manifested (or evidenced) by way of the spirit.

One final (but very, very important) note on this verse: The purpose of the (entire) manifestation of this spirit (given to all of God’s kids) is to profit withal… see it again:

1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

This means that the overall purpose is for every man (and collectively, the entire body of Christ as well) to profit all the way through, so that all the manifestation is evidenced – not just a part of it.

Now comes the tricky part. Most Christians are taught that the verses following are talking about individuals (for to one…to another…to another). How can God say that all the manifestation is given to every man, and then turn right around and say that one piece is given to one man and another piece to another man, etc? Well, he doesn’t!

In grammar, the phrase to prophet withal is an infinitive phrase. The words which follow must connect with this phrase to further elaborate on it. This is what verses 8-10 do.

God has structured this very wonderfully. First, in verse 7 he makes it plain that every man (believer) may bring forth (all) the manifestation of the (gift of) spirit, so that he may make full use of it in every way – to profit withal – all the way through. Having said that, he now breaks the entire manifestation up into its nine separate categories. Each one of these profits a little by itself; and what you have when you put them all together is to profit withal – by manifesting all of them! Then in verse 11, God brings the context right back to where he started in verse 7, putting them all back together again and telling us more about it as a whole unit again. In fact, verse 11 has some very illuminating truth in it as well!

1Co 12:8 For [the reason why we can profit withal is:] to one [one way to profit a little] is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another [more profit] the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another [even further profit] faith by the same Spirit; to another [even more!] the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another [and more] the working of miracles; to another [and more] prophecy; to another [getting bored?—ha ha] discerning of spirits; to another [even more profit] divers kinds of tongues; to another [lastly] the interpretation of tongues: [now we have it all!]

11 But all these…

A note of explanation is due about one of these, however. You may have noticed that the manifestation of healings is also called a gift (gifts of healings). This is simply because it is the only one of these which is also a gift. In the first (or natural) birth, God graciously endowed our physical bodies with the ability to heal themselves. A doctor might reset a broken bone, but it is self-mending. The same is true with cuts, scrapes, and a host of other things. We may provide medications, salves, ointments, and bandages, etc, but the healing process itself has been built in. The body of Christ is no different. God has built this into our new birth.

Basically, in order to manifest this one, a person has to operate it by asking God if a gift is there to have. If it is, and the recipient is believing for it, then it will be manifested (come into concretion in the senses realm). Such was the case in Act 3:6:

Act 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

Spiritually, Peter had asked God if there was a gift for the lame man, and there was. We know he received this gift of healing from God when he said "such as I have give I thee". He received this gift from God and gave it to the believing man and he was healed.

Healing is always a gift – if it is there, then fine – if not, God has a reason. I should say, however, one is usually available when the receiver is truly believing for it.

Moving on now…

1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

The above verse requires quite a bit of explanation in light of how it has been portrayed of late; and the trend is getting worse and worse with each new translation that comes along!

We just saw how God has made all of these available to every man so he can operate this gift to its full extent, profiting in every category. But ministers and teachers the world over have tried to make this verse sound as if God picks and chooses who gets what. And for the most part, it usually winds up that their students do not believe sufficiently enough to operate any of them! Those that are blessed enough to have one or the other are many times so blessed and thankful that to them it might seem greedy to have more of them, supposing that their fellow believers would have those ones, and together somehow they could enjoy all of them as a group.

Surely, it does work this way in practice. Many people do have their specialties and long suits among these, and many times deliverance comes to people when Christians operate together as a team, but to deny a Christian his full potential by teaching wrongly is a pitiful shame!

The truth is, God wants each of his children to enjoy operating all of these, while the devil wants just the opposite. If he can talk Christians out of believing they have all of this power, then that’s just less worry for him that every one of God’s kids just might manifest enough to stomp all over him and his host of devil-spirit helpers!

In my humble opinion, 1Co 12:11 has been translated horribly in many versions. For your enlightenment, below are some of the renderings. Please forgive me for the long list; I merely wanted the reader to see just how rampantly out of control this verse has become over the years. It is difficult to find any new version these days which is rendered accurately, and it appears that many of them just make it up as they go, text or not! Only the first two are actually faithful to the text. (Do take note of the intentional capitalization of the pronoun "he" in many of these.):

===============================================================

A Comparison of I Corinthians 12:11 among various versions:

(AV – 1611 King James)

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

(Revised Standard)

11 All these are inspired by one the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

(Living Bible)

11 It is the same and only Holy Spirit who gives all these gifts and powers, deciding which each one of us should have.

(GWV – God’s Word to the Nations)

11 There is only one Spirit who does all these things by giving what God wants to give to each person.

(Weymouth)

11 But these results are all brought about by one and the same Spirit, who bestows His gifts upon each of us in accordance with His own will.

(New International Version)

11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

(New American Standard Bible)

11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

(Amplified Bible)

11 All these [gifts, achievements, abilities] are inspired and brought to pass by one and the same [Holy] Spirit, Who apportions to each person individually [exactly] as He chooses.

(New Living Translation)

11 It is the one and only Spirit who distributes all these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have.

(Contemporary English Version)

11 But it is the Spirit who does all this and decides which gifts to give to each of us.

(New King James Version)

11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

(New Century Version)

11 One Spirit, the same Spirit, does all these things, and the Spirit decides what to give each person.

(21st Century King James Version)

11 But all of these that one and the selfsame Spirit worketh, apportioning to every man individually as He will.

(Young's Literal Translation)

11 and all these doth work the one and the same Spirit, dividing to each severally as he intendeth.

(Holman Christian Standard Bible)

11 But one and the same Spirit is active in all these, distributing to each one as He wills.

(New International Reader's Version)

11 All of the gifts are produced by one and the same Spirit. He gives them to each person, just as he decides.

(New International Version - UK)

11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

(Today's New International Version)

11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

(Worldwide English (New Testament))

11 And the same Spirit gives the power for all these things. He gives each person what he wants to give to them.

===============================================================

That was quite a list! After reading all those, one just might wonder if God is really the one who chooses after all, just because there are so many versions which say that.

I tell ya what – put a thousand counterfeit dollar bills that all look alike next to just one good bill – and the good bill is still the only true one!

Now, we will see exactly what this verse is saying by taking a closer look at it, considering the words I have put in italics:

1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

The verb worketh is the Greek word energeo, from which we derive our English word energize, and Spirit is referring to God himself. It is God who provides the energy to bring these to pass in the physical realm. The word dividing simply means distributing.

So far, the verse is saying, But all these are energized by the one and selfsame Spirit (God), distributing to every man… As noted earlier, we know every man refers to brethren, the born-again believers.

Now comes the interesting phrase, severally as he will Does the pronoun "he" refer to God or to the man? It seems to most people that it could be either one. But we cannot afford to just guess and hope we are correct! That is not doing honest research.

If we know just a little about English grammar, we can readily see that it should refer to the man, which is the "closest antecedent" to the pronoun he. However, I have found that this is usually not enough proof for most people because those who actually enjoyed learning about grammar in school seem to be but a few. So we will "dig a bit deeper" to see the truth here…

The word severally is the Greek word idios. This word appears over one hundred times in the Greek New Testament, and is usually translated one’s own, his own, her own, its own, etc. Below is an example of this word idios when it was translated private:

2Pet 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Since the word private is idios, the verse might be rendered, …"no prophecy of the scripture is of any one’s own interpretation", which means that we are not to just interpret it however we want to. As the author of the Bible, God has been very diligent to make himself perfectly clear to those who allow the scriptures to speak for themselves, instead of reading into it on their own (idios).

We can easily see how the translators were accurate in rendering idios as private here; if it is someone’s private matter, it is essentially his own matter. In fact, we get our English word idiosyncrasy from it, which is "anyone’s own particular or peculiar way of doing things". And again, God does not wish us to interpret his scriptures this way; he said this is the first thing we need to know!

Now, back to 1Co 12:11…

1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

This is the only verse in the Bible where the translators rendered idios as severally. Personally, I believe it obscures the entire meaning from view. Why weren’t they consistent with the rest of the places where they translated it one’s own, or in this case, his own? Consider what it is really saying now: …dividing to every man his own as he will. The word "he" refers to the man – and one doesn’t even need to be a grammar nut to see that now! And this fits in context with all we have seen from verse 7 on.

God had said that "the manifestation of the spirit is given to every man to profit all the way through", making full use of the gift of holy spirit he gave to us. He then broke it up into nine components, showing that each one has its unique profit. And now in verse 11 he has put them all back together as a unit, explaining to us that he will energize each one of these as we will. It is our responsibility and privilege to operate this gift of holy spirit in all of its parts as we will – that is to say, as we desire or as we believe. It is up to us to endeavor to find out about each of these and put them to use. If we don’t, they just won’t happen on their own, for God only energizes them as the man wills.

And even for all of this explanation, I am sure there are many who either don’t get it, or will even refuse to because they just cannot let go of what they have been taught already.

So just why are these things true? The very next verse tells us!

1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

As we see above, the next verse begins with for, which gives the reason for what he has shown thus far about his children utilizing all of the manifestations – making full use of the his gift of holy spirit. God is now going to explain these things by using the analogy of our human bodies to show us that physical things have been designed very similar to spiritual things, so we can relate them and get some wonderful understanding.

In a normal birth a baby has a body and all the physical parts to go with it. (feet, hands, ears, eyes, a nose, etc.) When you read from verse 13 on, you will see that these same parts are also incorporated into the body of Christ as well, in the spiritual sense. Let us not complicate matters. For now, let us keep it simple. Each one of the born-again believers has Christ in him:

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

We have the same ability which Jesus had on Earth! That is why we can do the works that he did (Jn 14:12). He is God’s son, and we are also now God’s children: Beloved, now are we the sons of God…(1Jn 3:2).

First, we must realize that each of us is like Christ (spiritually) for we each have Christ in us. Then collectively, we are all part of the spiritual body of Christ as well. If you try to visualize this, it may be a bit confusing. Just remember, it is not a literal fact! God is merely using the human body as an analogy to relate spiritual truths to us in a way in which we can understand.

Just as it is necessary to use all of our body parts to live well physically, it is also God’s wish that we learn to utilize these manifestations as well, for they are akin to "spiritual body parts". If someone does not have the use of a leg for instance, we might say he is "physically challenged". Do we want to be considered "spiritually challenged" by not wanting to use all these spiritual body parts? I would hope not! God has made them all available to us by way of the "spiritual DNA" contained in the seed [Greek word is spermo] we received from him.

SPEC

:)

I have logical reason to believe the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" was exactly what God said it was! People everywhere seem to have misunderstood this tree. (Whether it was symbolic or real, the lesson is still valid - so for the sake of argument, let us suppose for now it was a real tree of some kind.) Even the "serpent" (the devil in disguise) knew what would result from eating fruit of that tree: He said, "You will be as gods, knowing good and evil." (hence, the tree of knowledge of good and evil)

But God had commanded Adam not to eat of it, preferring he ate from the “tree of life” instead. Taking shorcuts in life is not always the best thing to do. God would prefer if we learned life's lessons little by little, as we can handle it. We build slowly and carefully, allowing our learning to be based upon previous experiences. The greatest oak trees grow like this - naturally over time!

They say "Rome wasn't built in a day." - How true - Well, we aren't supposed to either!

Eating of the "tree of life" is like allowing this process of growing to be just as found in nature - we learn life's lessons a little bit at a time, as God allows it for each individual. This works best for us because we are only responsible for a "bit" of knowledge at a time, and how we handle situations is based upon experience. What we don't know is "not held against us". (A good teacher would not even think of giving a calculus test to her first-grade class!)

Do we come out of the womb full grown? Why not? 'CAUSE WE AREN'T SUPPOSED TO!

But what Adam and Eve did was WRONG. They ate of the "forbidden fruit" - and took a HORRIBLE SHORTCUT - the EASY WAY through life! They wanted everything now without having to work for it! All of a sudden - they KNEW TOO MUCH! It was just as the serpent had told them, except they suddenly realized that "being like gods" wasn't such a good idea after all! Somehow, they had become aware of EVERYTHING GOOD AND EVERYTHING EVIL. But the problem was that they couldn't handle it, because it was all "head knowledge" without being "tempered by experience", the way knowlegde should have been.

This sort of reminds me of a line by Jack Nicholson as General Jessep in A Few Good Men: "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!"

No wonder the scripture says, "And the eyes of them both were opened..." and later: "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil..." How would you like to instantly understand EVERYTHING YOU ARE DOING WRONG? (Especially for Adam who had done the only thing God said not to do!) How do you like it when people point out all your faults? What would you do if you were presently aware of EVERY POSSIBLE SIN you had done, or are doing - every stray thought - every nuance? I would feel so condemned, I would just like to crawl into a hole somewhere and hide!

Becoming responsible for too much all at once without experience to handle it with is SHEER FOLLY! Let us learn to be patient as we learn life "a little bit at a time", for God has promised that He will "not allow something to come your way which you cannot yet handle with what you presently understand". (paraphrase of 1Co 10:13)

Is 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Does this seem to make sense to anyone besides me?

SPEC

:)

Hey SPECTRUM

I read and studied Dr. Haisch's supposition and it seem to me that even deeper than the light section prior to creation of the physical universe is an invisible abyss cone shaped that stretches down to a zero point. Out of the cone shaped abyss seeps the light field.

I have thought on this for a few days.

The abyss would be like a fall of energy from heaven. So zero may descend even deeper than the light field.

The light field is a result of the darkness of the deep abyss being opened up.

Hope that makes sense :)

It makes perfect sense to me, DrWearWord! Let me elaborate a bit...

First of all, I am certainly no scientist, but I have always been interested in that field. I am no math whiz either. (Although, in college I nearly ACED the entire course in "Analytical Geometry and Calculus", the only 5-credit course offered at the school. I got 100's on each weekly quiz, a 98 on the midterm and ACED the final exam.)

Sorry if that's sounds a bit "haughty"...it's been a long time since then! But I tell you what: If you ever care to examine the MATH behind Dr Haisch's supposition, it would make your head swim! It all looks like hieroglyphics to me!

Now, back to "reality", if there really is such a thing!...

I have found that things are really MUCH DEEPER than all this, as you also had said! I am a firm believer in the fact that ALL PHYSICAL THINGS have something "spiritual" behind them. Jesus Christ spoke in parables, showing an "interconnection" between the physical and spiritual realms. The Bible also reveals such a thing in Romans:

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him [spiritual realities] from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are MADE, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

That verse reveals that even things concerning God's "eternal power" and "Godhead" may be understood by looking "behind" the things that are made. Genesis chapter one shows (in "six days") a vast array of that which was made, so you may consider that as a wonderful source of information to LOOK BEHIND and discover some of the most amazing things in the entire universe!

Yet, for all this, I say: Even if Dr Haisch and his collaborators are indeed correct about the "light" in Genesis 1 on the first day being connected to their "zero-point field", even that in itself is yet but another PHYSICAL THING with a name attatched to it. And guess what? Behind that is something MORE...and behind that, EVEN MORE - and more, and more, even on to "infinity" - whatever that term truly means!

Yes, DrWearWord, we are both in total agreement that "zero may descend even deeper than the light field", as you put it!

Man, in his "feeble attempt" to discover all the secrets of the universe only finds a mere "drop in the ocean" with every new advance in technology. But isn't that what makes life so fun? The thrill of exploration and discovery has kept man searching for "answers" since the very dawn of civilization.

It sort of reminds me of the lyrics in a song by the Moody Blues (in reference to a verse in Revelation, no doubt):

"Knights in white satin, never reaching the end, Letters I've written, never meaning to send.

Beauty I've always missed, with these eyes before. Just what the truth is, I can't say anymore"...

Well, I can't say much more right now, either - this area is just too darn vast!

I will be listening to your song soon, DrWearWord. And speaking of that, I will now also "plug" my stuff too...

A few here at Greasespot are aware of the fact that I have recently written my first book. I believe I will entitle it, "Genesis One: God's Table of Contents". I hope it will be interesting reading to many.

It is in the "conceptual editing phase" of publication at the moment. (lot's of work to be done yet) Advanced copies should be available around August, and the official "worldwide release" in November. Please wish me "luck".

SPEC

:)

PS: After I posted this, I noticed you had commented again:

I remember being taught years ago in the way that it was thought foolishness by the wise to think that we could pray to an invisible God and believe for something concrete and tangible, but this was the wisdom of God. For man's wisdom is foolishness to God's way of thinking.

1 Corinthians 1:25 KJV

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

HOW VERY VERY TRUE!

This post had me ROFLOL.

Thanks for your colorless take on zero. (just joking, hehe)

Yes God is infinite and what a perfect place for infinity to abode but within the most humble of places. (where we least expect)

Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, NUMBERS...

The meek shall inherit the earth.

Peace with zero. :)

If you have ten apples to give to zero people how many apples do you have left? Zero or ten?

My answer is that you have the ten apples left because you gave none away.

If you have zero apples to give to ten people how many apples do you have left? Zero or ten?

My answer is that you had no apples to start with, so all ZERO of them are left.

You are not looking at the conclusion you are getting mired in the process keep your eye on the apple William Tell :)

What a refreshing response to my "silly post", DrWearWord! I believe most people would have taken it as ridicule or sarcasm. In a strange sort of way, that's exactly what it was; however, I did mean it "all in fun" - AND YOU ACTUALLY PICKED UP ON THAT! I am truly impressed!

My last name is Elliott. In school the kids tried to be "cute" and call me Idiot (LOL), but I knew I was intelligent, so I just laughed along with them. They got no fight out of me! And I got no fight out of you either. We are a lot alike, sir!

So, your "reward" is that I will now act in a more serious manner...

I think quite a bit of your "logic" in this post has some merit. Abstract as it is, the concept of ZERO as the "beginning of creation" is interesting to me.

I saw an article by Bernard Haisch, staff physicist at the Lockheed Martin Solar & Astrophysics Laboratory in Palo Alto, California. He is a scientific editor of The Astrophysical Journal and editor-in-chief of the Journal of Scientific Exploration.

You may be VERY INTERESTED in this article. Here is the link: Zero-Point Field

He supposes that the "light" in Genesis 1 on the first day may have some connection to the "Zero-Point Field", for short. (actually, it is the "electromagnetic zero-point field of the quantum vacuum".)

Although that one verse is the only Bible reference in his relatively short article, I believe he actually may have "hit on something".

For those of you who are aware of the "gap theory", this might be interesting. (The "gap theory", as it is called, refers to the lapse of time between the first two verses of the Bible - between the crreation of the first earth and its subsequent "destruction", when it became "without form and void".)

Some who adhere to this explanation (supposedly caused by a "war among the angels in heaven") also say that this was so devastating that it not only messed up the earth, but all of creation (the entire universe) was out of order as well!

Nothing could work - gravity, centrifugal force, inertia, acceleration, electromagnetism - none of the laws of physics as we know them could function, for everthing was in chaos!

To put it back into order, God first said, "Let there be LIGHT". If Dr. Haisch's supposition is correct, this would make perfect sense, since the "zero-point field" (as a sort of "grand foundation" for the universe) would be the first thing God would have to reinstitute in order for everthing else to be built upon it, so the universe could again function the way it was designed to be.

Is that a little better, DrWearWord, my friend?

SPEC

:)

A few ideas on the subject…

This topic reminds me of something by Shakespeare: Much Ado About NOTHING!

There is a lot going on here, but as far as I’m concerned, its all for NOUGHT. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, but nought sounds a lot like naughty, so (with the same logic used when transliterating zera to zero), I would have to say it's on the negative side!

Oops! My Bad! If it is truly nothing, it cannot be considered "less than nothing'", so it’s really not on the negative side. It’s neither positive nor negative. It’s kinda like in “limbo”. HEY! That reminds me of LIMBerger cheese. Maybe those two terms are somehow related! :blink:

If I were to rate this topic on a scale of one to ten, I’m afraid that would be impossible: I would instead give it a ZERO.

Will this topic ever make it to the “hot topic list”? I doubt that, for it is COLD. In fact I believe if you could measure it’s temperature, it would be -273.15 degrees Celcius or 0-K, which is ABSOLUTE ZERO. :P

Nevertheless, I do consider it very entertaining indeed! In fact, there are enough posts about it here to conclude that a great many people are “putting up” with this NO-tion. Do you suppose that could be defined as zero tolerance?

And as long as we doing a lot of guesswork here, I have a few more definitions:

Sub Zero: A submarine which disappears in the Bermuda Triangle.

Ground Zero: The temperature of dirt in winter time.

Zero Gravity: What was written on the subject before Newton’s discovery.

Zero Punctuation: A term describing “uncials” and “cursives”.

Coke Zero: The bottle’s contents after you drink all the coke.

NOTE: If God is zero and God is infinite, then I suppose the bottle still somehow contains an "infinite supply of coke" – sort of like the "cruse of oil" which didn’t run out!

Now a bit more on Hebrew and Greek:

In Hebrew "nothing" is lo. This makes perfect sense to me because it is not high, and nothing is (of course) much "lo-er" than that!

The Greek word for "length" is pote. Looks to me like we might derive our English word "pot" from this. (However, I suspect I might be mistaken because pots, being round, aren’t described as having "length", as are pans.)

The Hebrew word for "fowl" is owph. Just like changing the "a" in zera to an "o", making zero, I choose to change the "ph" in owph to an "l". Now we have owl, which is a type of "fowl" – and OUALA! - it fits just like a foot in a sock.

I am thankful to DrWearWord for starting this topic. By his example of making zera to zero, I have begun to discover a whole lot more about Greek and Hebrew (as you have just seen!). :)

I give him the credit for teaching us all quite a lot about ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

I had my doubts as to whether or not I might learn anything provocative by "venturing into" this topic in the first place. For me, it rather puts a “new twist” into the old addage, "Nothing ventured – NOTHING GAINED"!

SPEC

:)

PS: And if I were you, I wouldn't be concerned about anybody plagiarizing your idea, DrWearWord - After all, you said:

How can we rob zero? How can we rob what does not have substance? How can we take from nothing?

How is it God setting up man to fall? He defined what His rules were, and gave man the choice to obey or not. If you have children, and you tell them to do something, are you setting them up to fall if they disobey?

RIGHT ON, MARK!

Fallen from the exalted position God originally meant for man, having dominion over His creation.

SPOT-ON AGAIN, MARK!

God cannot leave sin unpunished or He would not be a just and righteous judge. The price for sin is death... somebody had to pay it. In His mercy God provided His Son as a sacrifice to pay for our sins. God is not only smart, but also both righteous and merciful.

THE BRITISH WOULD SAY, "JOLLY GOOD SHOW, MARK"!

Have you ever considered the concept of "let the punishment fit the crime" in this subject?...

...As per your premise of "God's gotta punish them or else He's not a Righteous God" routine, they pay the price (altho' there is a significant difference of opinion as to how is it that Adam and Eve "surely died", a topic which I shall leave for another day.

Sunesis explains (further down) that what died (that very same day they "sinned") was Spirit. They no longer had that avenue with which to know things.

(And as a matter of fact, you will see later on that they no longer needed "spirit" to know what was right and wrong - they knew it all - and having the responsibility for doing EVERYTHING PERFECTLY was "condemning them horribly"! And it was all too late for them to go back, for the damage had already been done.

All of this raised enough questions as to the validity of God's approach to begin with. But when you consider that the punishment extends to the whole human race?! ... All who has done _nothing_ to deserve this god-of-your's wrath, ... except to be _born_? (ie., according to the "born dead in trespasses and sins" doctrine ala what is recorded in Romans.)

Whatever Adam had produced in his body is in each of us when we are born upon this earth...

...You see, God designed the science found in nature, which includes the laws of genetic structure and DNA, etc. He also designed within man things that even today's doctors and scientists do not yet fully understand. They are aware of the fact that certain chemicals in the brain need to be "in balance" for a body to be healthy - and there is much writing in the world on that subject!

Even medical novices like myself seem to understand that certain EXTREME SITUATIONS somehow trigger adrenaline to be released in our bodies. And just anybody understands that a "cold" may be caused in the body when one goes outside in the winter time without a sweater. Psychologists know that many sorts of mental illnesses may be caused just by thinking the wrong things over a long period of time. Just what happens in the mind to produce such things? Chemical imbalances? Chemical changes? Can mere thinking cause all that?

In contrast though, it is written: "A merry heart doeth good, like a medicine." It is a medical fact that thinking pleasant thoughts releases "natural serotonin" from the brain. In sufficient quantities, this drug can even produce "euphoria"! (So who says God doesn't like people getting "high"? - it's perfectly ok with Him if you do it HIS WAY instead of inhaling, injecting, or absorbing it from without the body!

But what the doctors don't understand is God's concept of "sin" or of man's "sin nature" (as God puts it) which was naturally passed on to us all through the bloodline of Adam. Adam had more problems than just a lack of "spirit". What he did had also caused a "negative effect" of some sort within his body.

(I am guessing now - perhaps his disobediance caused certain chemicals in his brain to be combined to form some "new item" which could not be healed by the body itself - some sort of "irreputable damage" which had no "physical cure". Perhaps somehow, his DNA was changed from what God had originally intended, and was passed along to all future generations.)

Most people seem to think "sin" is just disobedience - doing something wrong. Yes, that is true enough. But it is also an entity - something concrete in the body which results from wrongdoing. This is what Adam had produced in his own body - SIN. (And that (whatever it really is) is a part of our physical nature which was handed down to all generations by way of the bloodline from Adam.

So yes, Garth, it does seem unfair for everyone to be born that way - but it remains a physical reality to be "born in sin". But it does not have to stay that way!

You say "The price for sin is death... somebody had to pay it." ... Uhhh, well, if Adam & Eve had say, molested their kids, or have done something else that was the moral/ethical equivalent thereof (<-- note the emphasis please), I would accept your argument. But what Adam & Eve did (and that _just_ according to _your written scripture's account_, keep in mind) was the equivalent of walking on the grass, or even of minor theft (picking the fruit). ... Okay, well tell me something, is minor theft like that really worthy of the death penalty in your judgment?

Let the punishment fit the crime. <_<

YOU called it "a minor offense" - that's JUST PLAIN GUESSWORK!

The "punishment DOES INDEED fit the crime" - This was no MINOR OFFENSE, as you suppose. They disobeyed God by doing the one and only thing He had commanded them NOT TO DO! The punishment for this "capitol crime" was "death", not unlike what the penal code demands in many of our own United States, even today!

Who knows just what happens when a person is "born again" according to the scriptures? Perhaps that "sin nature" is still within us physically, but again - is it possible God can negate its effect, allowing His children to live again just as if Adam hadn't sinned? (And the rest can just complain about it if they don't want the "MIRACLE-CURE" for this "sin"!)

Jesus Christ bought this for us from "God's Pharmacy", and it is freely given to all who accept it ON GOD'S TERMS - That is JUST!

It was actually the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not just knowledge, & the result of eating of it was that they would be as gods. I'm not sure what that means, but it is obviously something more serious than walking on the grass. Taking God's position? Treason? As you said, Garth, letting the punishment fit the crime is after all a biblical concept.

That's very observant of you Tom! Plain and simple, IT WAS EXACTLY WHAT GOD SAID IT WAS! People everywhere have misunderstood this "tree". (Whether it was symbolic or real, the lesson is still valid - so for the sake of argument, we will just suppose for now it was a real tree of some kind.)

Even the "serpent" (the devil in disguise) knew what would result from eating fruit of that tree: "You will be as gods, knowing good and evil." (hence, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil)

But God had commanded them not to eat it, preferring they eat from the Tree of Life instead.

Taking shorcuts in life is not always the best thing to do. God would prefer if we learned life's lessons little by little, as we can handle it. We build slowly and carefully, allowing our learning to be based upon previous experiences. The greatest oak trees grow like this - naturally over time!

They say "Rome wasn't built in a day." - How true - Well, we aren't supposed to either!

Eating of the "Tree of Life" is like allowing this process of growing to be just like in nature - We learn life's lessons a little bit at a time, as God allows it for each individual. This works best for us because we are only responsible for a "bit" of knowledge at a time, and how we handle situations is based upon experience. What we don't know is "not held against us". (A good teacher would not even think of giving a calculus test to her first-grade class!)

Do we come out of the womb full grown? Why not? 'CAUSE WE AREN'T SUPPOSED TO!

But what Adam and Eve did was WRONG. They ate of the "forbidden fruit" - and took a HORRIBLE SHORTCUT - the EASY WAY through life! They wanted everything now without having to work for it! All of a sudden - they KNEW TOO MUCH! It was just as the serpent had told them, except they suddenly realized that "being like gods" wasn't such a good idea after all...

...Somehow, they had become aware of EVERYTHING GOOD AND EVERYTHING EVIL. But the problem was that they couldn't handle it, because it was all "head knowledge" without being "tempered by experience", the way knowlegde should have been.

This sort of reminds me of a line by Jack Nicholson as General Jessep in A Few Good Men: "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!"

No wonder the scripture says, "And the eyes of them both were opened..." and later: "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil..."

How would you like to instantly understand EVERYTHING YOU ARE DOING WRONG? (Especially for Adam who had done the only thing God said not to!) How do you like it when people point out all your faults - like some do in their posts here? What would you do if you were presently aware of EVERY POSSIBLE SIN you had done, or are doing - every stray thought - every nuance? I would feel so condemned, I would just like to crawl into a hole somewhere and hide!

Becoming responsible for too much all at once without experience to handle it with is SHEER FOLLY! Let us learn to be patient as we learn life a little bit at a time...

...for God has promised that He will "not allow something to come your way which you cannot yet handle with what you presently understand". (my paraphrase of 1Co 10:13)

I believe that Adam, had he not worshipped and given his authority to the Adversary, would have had the right to go eat of the tree of life and rule, Christ would not have been needed as Adam was fulfilling his mission (there's a reason why Christ is called the "second" Adam), and things would be totally different today.

How true! Eating tree of life was just fine with God.

When Adam made his choice to worship the Adversary and "become as gods", when he decided - well, God really doesn't mean it when he says it will be death if I do this - he lost something, something died - something so profound, that he tried to put it back on, via skins.

Right on, Sunesis! Through Christ we have gained back all which was lost through Adam's sin. And we are now "clothed with righeousness" - and that's a whole lot better than a fig leaf!

I almost think he wore his spirit for all to see. He was glorious when he walked the Garden - a masterpiece creation of God. I think it was similar as when Peter saw Jesus in his "transfigured" glorious body. Peter never forgot and mentions it in Acts. The Hope of a new body and transformation was a reality to him. He had seen it first hand.

God promises to restore us to glorious, masterpiece state. That is our Hope.

VERY WONDERFUL POST, SUNESIS!

And I note, with irony, that when all the specific arguments supporting some presumed-to-be-true theology are effectively shot down, argued against, or even questioned, then you guys always hide behind the "Well, it's one of those 'spiritual things' that you unbelievers just cannot understand. It's just something you have to take upon on faith." style arguments, coupled with the pretentious facade of being 'morally offended' that we unbelievers have the unmitigated *gaul* of bringing up these challenges (and in public, no doubt! :blink: How _dare_ we?) of your doctrine and faith to begin with. Ie., "Who are you to question God!?" and other such flatulence.

I don't hide behind some "catch all" phrase, pal! I don't expect people to just blindly take what I say on "faith", as you suppose I do! In PLAIN SIGHT, I logically explain what I believe - and if you still don't want to hear it, that's your doing! Everyone has the same opportunity to believe the truth or not.

And I am not "offended" when challenged by you "unbelievers" (as you call yourself and others like you)! I know where I stand now, and where I shall stand in the future as well.

And just who are YOU to call my words "flatulence", as though they smell like f*rts? I think your nose isn't working properly, 'cause the truth sure smells good to me! (Maybe your "wayward thoughts over a long period of time" have produced some chemical imbalance in your system which affects your sense of smell!)

Gee, folks! I sure spent a lot of time on this post...somebody must have "pushed the right button"!

As with most of my writings, I would appreciate honest feedback, and gentle correction (with facts, and logic, if you please)where I may have strayed.

I would especially like to hear what you all (especially my "friends") think of my take on the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil".

I had spent quite some time years ago working to see that and have not heard it put that way before, so I believe it's a rather new idea.

If it makes some sense to any of you, do let me know - maybe it would make a good TOPIC!

SPEC

:)

Spectrum49,

I agree with you that the Trinity doesn't make sense....

...In addition there are specific differences between God and His Son:

[*]God cannot die (I Timothy 6:16), but Jesus died.

[*]God cannot be tempted (James 1:13), but Jesus was tempted in all things, yet without sin (Hebrews 4:15).

[*]God is omniscient, i.e. He knows all things (I John 3:20), but Jesus said there were things that he did not know, including when he would return (Mark 13:32).

[*]God is omnipotent, i.e. all powerful, but Jesus said he could do nothing of himself without the Father (John 5:30).

[*]Jesus said that his doctrine was not his own, but His that sent him, and then differentiated between God and himself, emphasizing that he sought God's glory and not his own (John 7:16-18).

[*]Jesus made a distinction between himself and God, saying there is none good but one, that is, God (Mark 10:17-18).

[*]Jesus prayed to God (Luke 6:12). If he were God, he would have been talking to himself.

[*]Jesus was the Lamb of God (John 1:29,36), the perfect sacrifice to God. How could he sacrifice himself to himself? Jesus was the perfect sacrifice to God on behalf of mankind.

[*]Jesus is now seated at the right hand of God (Mark 16:19; Romans 8:34; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 10:12; I Peter 3:22). If he were God, how could he sit on his own right hand?

The differences indicated in these verses aren't just differences between the Father and the Son. They are specifically stated as differences between God (as a whole) and Jesus. In addition, there are many clear, unambiguous references to Jesus as the Son of God, compared with only a handful of verses that call him God in a representational sense. And as I said before, it is largely because the early church lost the Hebrew understanding of this concept that the doctrine of the Trinity was developed.

Loved your entire post, Mark! Especially the "list of differences" between God and Jesus.

And thank you for explaining how people believe the "holy trininty". I can see their confusion now, clear as day!

It's not really as though there is "one God in three persons" as they say they believe, but the way they handle it, it is as though there are three distinct Gods: One God Who created the universe, one God Who (when it is convenient for Him) calls Himself "His own son", and one "rather mysterious" God whose refers to Himself as "The Holy Spirit".

It rather reminds me of Greek Mythology where there was a "god for everything"...but Paul distinctly pointed out (as you also showed) that there is ONE GOD.

Speaking of "many Gods", it reminded me of a humorous ancedote that happened at work one time. I was talking with one of my friends (who was Catholic) and he showed me a "medal" he was wearing around his neck. He explained that there are several of these for "various occasions".

This one was "St. Anthony of Padua", who (among other things) is "the Patron Saint of lost items". He said if you lose something, all you have to do is rub it and say a prayer, and you will find the item soon.

So I quipped: "What would happen if you lost the medal? What could you possibly do then?"

He looked very puzzled for a few moments. Then he said, "That's not a problem! I'd just go and buy another one."

So I agreed with him, saying, "That's exactly what I would do if I lost something. I would do my best to find it, but if I couldn't, I would just go and buy another one."

Then we both laughed. Despite our religious differences, we were still friends. I like that.

SPEC

:)

Why would it be meaningless? Those of us who don't view the bible as "authoritative" still have opinions about it. While I no longer have a "belief", or "faith" about Jesus and his nature, I certainly have an opinion about what the bible says and how much sense Wierwille made in understanding it.

My bad Oakspear! Sorry. It does have some meaning to everyone. I stand corrected -- all are welcome here to view their own opinion.

SPEC

:)

:) What a topic! Forgive me for sounding “crass” as I give my opinion on the subject. And for those who do not consider the Bible as “authoritative”, this will (of course) be rather meaningless to you, because it is based upon “holy scripture”. (But I do glean from all of you at times – Christian or not.)

As far as the trinity is concerned, I find little to make sense of it. I suppose I could go into great depths while explaining expressions such as I and my father are one, Let us make man in our image, He who has seen me has seen the father, and a host of other quotes which tend to promote the trinity as being a valid argument. Such an attempt would only lead to a VAST variety of similar such suppositions and much wasted time with nothing gained except more “fuel for the fire” so it may continually rage on.

However, I have found one piece of logic which seems to dissolve these other “side issues” and expose the trinitarian doctrine for what it represents at “face value”:

Suppose (just for a moment – mind you) that the doctrine of the trinity is true. Let us suppose that Jesus is God. (as in God the Father, God the Son, etc…) Let us suppose, (despite the fact that it seems utterly ludicrous for a father to actually be his own son), that somehow they are truly equivalent and co-equal. Let us then, by sheer logic, “plug this into the scriptures” to see what they plainly say about themselves in light of this similarity.

I will now substitute these terms at random. For instance, when the Bible mentions Jesus, I may replace it by God. And when it mentions God, I may replace it by Jesus – assuming these to be equivalent terms, there should be no problem. Fair enough? (It should be!) Changes are marked in bold text.

Jn 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father are you? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father myself: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father me also.

Making a lot of sense to me so far! :lol:

Jn 1:18 No man hath seen God Jesus at any time…. :huh:

Jn 8 29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me I have not left myself alone; for I do always those things that please him myself.

Supposing Jesus is God can become quite entertaining! There are literally hundreds of similar nonsensical things to be seen as you spend a pleasant afternoon just reading and substituting this way. (I do it at times just for a bit of comic relief!) :B) Judge me if you like, but at least I’m being honest about what I believe, as are most here.

But on a more serious note, the “classic” one is this: (Jesus is speaking)

Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

If this is really God speaking, this verse informs us that we can do greater works than God. For those who want to entertain such a thought, you are treading upon very treacherous ground. Lucifer tried to be greater than God once, and failed. He was given a new name – the devil! Consider this deeply and make up your mind if the scriptures are acually saying Jesus is truly somehow his own Father!

One of the questions in this thread is whether or not believing the trinity is necessary to become born again. The simple truth about the “new birth” or “becoming saved” is this:

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

If Jesus was God then there was a time when God was dead. (so much for being eternal!)

And if God were dead, He would (of necessity) be subject to His own truth on that subject:

Ec 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing…

If God were dead, then there was a time in which He did not know anything at all. (how silly!) Then just how could He raise Himself from the dead? :unsure:

My take on this is that if a person believes Jesus is God and God is Jesus, then it is utterly impossible to believe (according to all scripture) that Jesus was raised from the dead. Not being able to believe that would negate someone from believing Ro 10:9 and therefore, could not become saved. :(

And as far as the other thing in Ro 10:9 is concerned, Confessing Jesus as the lord in your life. To believe Jesus is God would say that there is “another Jesus” in addition to the one who is not God. Confessing the Jesus who says he is God might be confessing the wrong one, preventing salvation on both counts.

SPEC

:)

I would think that to derive a belief system with accurate logic you'd have to start with truths that are axiomatic. For example, Euclidean geometry is completely derived from point, line, and plane as axioms. Do these always hold up? Not necessarily. The work Einstein did on theory of relativity seems to indicate that as mass approaches the speed of light, these simple axioms start bending...

...For me, IMO the simple truths about God I can read in the Bible are axiomatic:

1) God is love

2) God is light

3) God is my Father (in a spiritual sense)

4) God inspired scripture so that I can know Him and His plan of redemption for mankind through His Son

Those are kind of what I consider for my life to be axioms. They absolutely require believing, "faith", trust in a higher power, or however you want to term it that communicates. I cannot prove them. In a sense they are "Christian" axioms if you want to label them. If they are my axioms, then I can start to derive logically my belief system. And just because I have a certain belief system doesn't mean I'm better than anyone else, and it also doesn't mean I can always live up to it...

Good for you, chockfull! We all have to start somewhere. And to me, what you wrote is perfectly logical. However, I warn you there are many here who would question how you derived these in the first place, knowing they were written in scripture, and profess from the start that they are "invalid", questioning the scriptures themselves as being TRUTH, and "demanding" they be proven.

Such are similar to those who say they do not believe in God at all, because you cannot show them any "physical evidence" of him, despite the fact they suspect He is spiritual and cannot be seen. But the moment you quote "God is spirit" from the Bible to assert your point, they will again question the very validity of the scripture to deny it yet again.

If you read this entire thread, you will see what I mean.

But it remains that at least I BELIEVE one (of necessity) must start "somewhere", and that your beginning place (your "Christian axioms", as they were) are as good as any -- and CERTAINLY better than NONE at all!

Good for you, sir!

What now? ... Your responses to me are ENDED now too? (I think that's called taking a play from the Sarah Palin playbook. Stop responding to people who challenge what you state as indisputable Truth ©, ... not that that helped her cause any. )

No, Garth, my responses to you are not ended. You do speak your mind, and I respect that. As far as my book is concerned, comparing me to John Lynn wasn't entirely fair, but that's OK. I only wish I felt safe to share what I found, but the time is not quite yet, as the info needs protection for the present, until published.

You might find it interesting once I reveal it. At the least, I am sure it will be both provocative and controversial, depending upon the reader. It will be a few months.

Peace,

SPEC

:)

Dude I'm not looking for answers, I'm trying to get people to actually think about what they are reading. You did not answer my questions. You used no science.

The Koala's and kangaroos swam from Australia to Africa and walked all the way to the ark?

Seth

Seth -- I see your true colors coming out, as expected. (Actually, I sort of goaded you into being truthful -- you didn't really think I was so gullible I could actually believe you you were looking for answers after the way you started your involvement in this thread, did you?) You want science? Ever heard of Pangaea? You want more science? Wait until my book comes out.

My apologies to all those who are serious about this thread. My responses to Seth are ENDED. Pr 26:20 Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth.

SPEC

OK fine, but this is what get's me. There are a high number of species that are unique to certain geographical locations. Australia has Kangaroo's, Wallabies and Koalas along with a dozen or so others I can't remember, did Noah go all the way to Australia to get them? What about the giant Panda and lesser Pandas from China, did he go to China for those? OK let's assume he did, now after the flood did he go back to Australia to return the indigenous species, and did he do the same for China?

The other thing that also get's me is that there would have to be a significant hazard from all the dangerous predators and venomous animals, every venomous snake would need to be onboard. I mean you'd have hungry lions and tigers, and bears, oh my!

8 people took care of all these things? I just don't know. The more I think about it, it just doesn't add up.

Seth

Seth: It is nice of you to keep trying to understand, and wise to concede certain points when they make sense to you. And thank you for the fine link. There was lots of interesting things there.

As far as Noah having to travel to China and Austrailia, we are mindful that Noah did not have to gather the animals himself. They were "inspired" by some sort of "instinct" to come to the ark and go inside. Just how God did this is not explained.

If you have read the account of how Daniel survived in the lion's den, you can also understand why there was no need to fear any dangerous species which were aboard the ark. God made sure they were all safe.

As far as "taking care" of the animals...perhaps there was an "onboard ecology" whereby nature worked in similar ways with that of today. Species which ate flesh did not starve...there was plenty for them to eat for a few months.

Most animals in nature do not require human intervention to survive in the wild. Perhaps it was like that on the ark to a certain degree.

The more you look at the details, the more will "add up". There is no reason to quit. If you want answers, keep asking and searching. You will find.

SPEC

:)

The assumption that what the bible says about itself is in any way reliable with out being tested is crazy, go back and read the first two chapters of Genesis and really try to have no preconceived notions about it. Does it make sense? Truly? Does it contain no contradictions? Really? The first two chapters of Genesis is so incomprehensible I can't believe it isn't filed under fiction 200 years ago or at least poetry. Then the story of Noah, pure bunk! Every animal by two? Check out how many animals species there are including insects, between 3 and 30 million! So collect 6 to 60 million animals insects included, house them and feed them for a couple months? The Ark would have to be size of 20 cruise ships unless you are Dr. Who and have a TARDIS, and this was all to be done by 8 people? Come on! get a freaking clue!

Seth

That is interesting Seth. 20 cruise ships, huh? I would like to see a breakdown of these species. I wonder just how many of these 60 million were aquatic, not being affected by a flood. I wonder how many were birds like ducks and such, who could float and eat fish. Your remark needs much further delineation to be a valid argument, if you care to show us all the breakdown.

And in your list, please don't forget to account for the "mass distinctions" which happened prior to the flood in Noah's time, according to what paleontologists (among the many other disciplines within the science community) have proven as historically factual. That should further limit your "original list" quite substantially.

And somewhere you also need to somehow prove precisely how much time had passed since those extinctions until the flood, so we may properly account for any possible further evolution of the remaining species. However, not believing the scriptures are valid, I doubt you could even get started with some reasonably believable timeline.

I know this is quite a task to undertake, but if you are willing to try, there are many who may consider your remarks as worthy of further investigation.

SPEC

:)

Erkjohn - I believe these were two separate instances - 60 Min one time and 20-20 another. Both got all botched up!

And the deprogrammer (or at least one of the main ones) was Ted Patrick. I heard some horrible stories about the legal kidnapping which went on. And it seemed to work because those "felonies" were authorized by terrified parents of those in The Way Cult.

What a mess things were at the time! And all that seemed to provide VPW more fire for his "ministry", claiming "We must really have something here, or the devil wouldn't be trying to hard to stop us!"

SPEC

:)

I took the class for the specific reason of learning to understand and study the bible, and to learn to speak in tongues.. That was it .. nothing more than that...

and of course I learned to speak in tongues.. but the other thing I learned early on in my time with TWI was that no one and I do mean no one was actually studying the bible.. they were studying PFAL.

and anytime some one (okay Me, but I am pretty sure I was not the only one who got treated like this) mentioned trying to do any independent reading of the bible, or attempting to study a subject that meant some thing to you personally... you were shot down and told you were too immature (in the Word) and would be best served by studying the fundamentals of PFAL...go read the blue book, you don't really know how to study the bible, and you will mess it up and learn it wrong.

This really irked me, and at first I followed along but it became evident to me in a relatively short time that we were not trying to use the newly acquired skills we had to actually study the bible but we were just repeating PFAL over and over again... And if you didn't want to be yelled at or chastised or told how incapable you were of being able to read the bible on your own, you had best keep any thing you were trying to do, to yourself.

IT was an exercise in futility... take the class to learn to study but don't you dare actually study.

Right on Leafy! (Except I was ONE who did study independently)

I did so to see for myself if what they were teaching actually made sense. Some did, but some didn't. It didn't seem to mean a whole great deal to me to find errors in their work, realizing they are human also and are prone to making mistakes at times, as are we all. When I saw MY mistakes, I just changed my mind. And it felt good to realize I was growing and learning and improving.

Yet YOU WERE RIGHT...when I dared to bring up things which didn't actually ring true to my heart, I was told precisely what you said -- "Go read your blue book!"

It's rather funny that when I tried to show them their error with LOGIC they couldn't refute, were they meek to hear and change? Did they try to honestly continue debating the issue with EVEN BETTER logic to prove I was yet wrong...or even compliment me on my effort? HELL NO!!! Instead, I was told that I had a devil-spirit called PRIDE ... and a few other things too!

Though I didn't believe their accusations, I acted "meek" and just took the crap so as not to rock the boat. And although my demeaner is not to raise my voice in anger, there were times I had to try that approach when I felt there was no other way...perhaps then they would listen. But to my surprise, they yelled back EVEN LOUDER! (they should study Proverbs INSTEAD of their f***ing blue book! -- please excuse my language -- I get "irked" as well.)

Why I stayed for over 30 years is a matter of my own heart. I tend to be extremely patient, forgiving and understanding...perhaps moreso than I ought...for even then my "buddies" falsely considered me "gullible". (I forgave them in my heart as well -- Ha!)

I guess I figured that eventually somebody with "clout" (Corps, Clergy, etc.) would "discover" those same things themselves and all would be well in the long run.

But that never happened! I eventually had to leave them because of it. It's rather ironic how the intriguing idea of being part of a Biblical RESEARCH ministry first lured me into The Way, but it was my own RESEARCH which led me out! (Ha!)

Please forgive me now for what I am about to say, because it is just too VAST to cover in proper detail -- I had made a "discovery" which to the best of my knowledge and searching the net has proven to be "unknown in the world". I am in the process of publishing a book about it (my first) which will be coming out in a few months.

I had tried in vain over the years to share this wonderful thing with them, but they would not hear. I supposed for a time that somehow the "enemy" was keeping them from seeing it. But over time, I realized that it was perhaps God himself who blinded their eyes to it, no matter how hard I tried to impart it. I suspect now that if they had been allowed to see and appreciate it for themselves, they would have STOLEN it from me, just as they have plagerized just about everything else! (And I am thankful for the many posts along those lines here at GS...my eyes were opened to their nonsense...and I had a nice cup of coffee and a piece of pie to boot!)

I thank God for his assistance in this matter all along, despite my ignorance of TWI leadership's true agenda.

You are most likely correct as well Waysider...when you said "the whole thing was simply a veiled, business driven MLM scheme designed to generate profits for VPW."

SPEC

:)

PS: The name of my book will most likely be "Genesis One: God's Table of Contents."

I remember once in the 70’s when we all heard that an “official spokesperson of The Way" was to appear for an interview on a Sunday’s primetime broadcast of 60 Minutes. We were all excited about that and were telling everybody we could about the upcoming event.

Sunday came -- but completely unannounced, a programming change had been made –- what was aired on 60 Minutes instead was a documentary about The Moonies (headed by Sun Myung Moon), a group labeled as a cult who sold pencils on the street, etc.

Needless to say, nearly all the people we had talked to had absolutely NO INTEREST WHATSOEVER in The Way after that! Even when we tried to "explain", most just ignored us -- they didn't want to hear any more about it !

Looking back now with hindsight, I can say TWI deserved that !

Anyone else find this interesting?

Spec

:)

I do realize what I am about to post has no reference to this topic, but since everyone seemed to enjoy my first ancedote, here is another:

Attempting to be the class clown in school did not always work very well. I met my match with Mr. Palmer (a math instructor) on the very first day of my 9th grade trigonometry class…

He had written on the blackboard all of the trig functions we would be learning during the semester. (sine, cosine, tangent, etc.) The whole class seemed baffled at the sight of this strange stuff!

Having drawn a telephone pole on the board, he posed the question: “Suppose you do not know the height of this pole, but with a sextant you can measure the angle at which a sun-ray is cutting across the top of it – and with a tape measure you can determine the length of its shadow on the ground.”

He continued, saying, “Now, with this information and what you will be learning this year, you will find that the “tangent function” will work just fine in solving this problem.”, pointing to it among the myriads of other stuff on the blackboard.

He plugged in some numbers and gave the answer. We were all stunned and amazed. Then he said, “Are there any questions?” Sitting in the front row I raised my hand, being ready to be cute!

I said, “Mr Palmer – Wouldn’t it have been simpler to just put on a set of gaffs and climb the pole with a tape measure?” The whole class was laughing, and I was in my element!

But he quickly replied, “And I suppose, Mr Elliott, in trying to ascertain the distance to the nearest star, you would suggest to NASA that we put a tape measure on the back of a rocket ship – is that correct, Mr Elliott?”

That cut me to the bone, for now the class was all laughing at ME as I embarrassingly slumped down in my chair! (He never had any more “problems” with me the rest of the year…I was a model-student from then on…

SPEC

:)

Now that there's some mighty funny stuff!!

:P

Coming from you Waysider, I feel honored! And if I had a hat like yours, I'd tip it your way as well!

Mel

In mentioning the Listening With a Purpose Questions from PFAL, Waysider just reminded me of an incident you all might find interesting. Please excuse me if I am deviating from the TOPIC somewhat with my ancedote - I just want you all to be amused...

I was in a class as a repeat grad once and question #5 from Session 1 was asked by the class leader: “What is the difference between apistia and apeitheia?”

I was frantically waving my hand and was called upon! I promptly (and very boldly) stated, “I don’t know – and I don’t care!”

Right away many were chuckling and within a few moments the laughter grew to include the whole class as they were catching on to my “little quip” – that is, except for the leader!

You should have seen the GLARE he had been giving me as if to say, “How dare you to disrupt MY class!” But very soon, he understood it as well and joined in the merriment.

Ironically though, after all the years since then my answer still remains the same: How does TWI differentiate between apistia and apeitheia?

"I DON’T KNOW - AND I DON’T CARE!"

SPEC

:)

The following are two excerpts from a handout by TWI, seen in a recent post by Charlene:

In one paragraph:

Part of research is not to find something new in the Word,

In the very next paragraph:

The ministry has the freedom to change and grow when something new is discovered in the Bible

About this blatant contradiction:

Is it me, or did those 2 paragraphs cancel each other out?

SPOT ON, Tzaia!

I once looked up some facts on the sale of many of TWI’s holdings as they were liquidating a bit for needed ready capital. I wasn’t very surprised when I noticed that among the first things to go were The Way College of Biblical Research (Emporia, KS) along with its sister facility, The Way College of Biblical Research (Indiana campus). They always did seem to put a low priority on research!

And even long before all that, the old "BRC" (Biblical Research Center) had to give way to The VPW Word Over the World Victor Paul Wierwille Prevailing Word Auditorium just down the road with its million-dollar cameras, etc.

Research at TWI? Bah, humbug!

SPEC

:)

There may be discrepancies and errors in the sacred writings, but those truths that God wished to see included in the Scripture, and which are important to our salvation, are placed there without error... the Bible is not inerrant in detail, but God has ensured that no substantial errors, which mislead us about the nature of salvation, are to be found in Scripture.

Any thoughts on this?

SPEC

Just to clear this up a bit, folks...

By posting the above quote (by Keith Ward), I was NOT indicating I agreed with him, although it may have been assumed as such.

My purpose was merely to generate more feedback ("Any thoughts on this?"), which is what is happening as this topic of discussion continues.

The larger context of this dialogue concerns those who are "questioning the value of Biblical research done by The Way International" (as first indicated by Penworks), and precisely why they do so.

SPEC

Yeah.

It smells suspiciously similar to the load of crap Wierwille was shoveling.

This kind of thinking completely ignores the reality of how the Bible came to exist as a physical entity.

And, in your opinion Waysider, what is this "reality"? (that is, how do you believe the Bible came to exist?)

I truly meant no harm.

SPEC

The following may be of interest concerning “inerrancy of the Bible”, found at Wikipedia.com:

The Reverend Professor (John Stephen) Keith Ward (born 22 August 1938) is a British cleric, philosopher, theologian, and scholar. He is a Fellow of the British Academy and (since 1972) an ordained priest in the Church of England. He was a Canon of Christ Church, Oxford until 2003.

Comparative theology and the interplay between science and faith and are two of his main topics of interest.

He said:

There may be discrepancies and errors in the sacred writings, but those truths that God wished to see included in the Scripture, and which are important to our salvation, are placed there without error... the Bible is not inerrant in detail, but God has ensured that no substantial errors, which mislead us about the nature of salvation, are to be found in Scripture.

Any thoughts on this?

SPEC