spectrum49

Does it? Wierwille's angst over "he" referring to the Spirit is about what most charismatics have trouble with. Why would God play favorites?

But underlying, we know God is no respecter of persons and we also know that God respects freedom of will. So what if the translation is better of "he" the Spirit, and that the understanding is God helps those to pursue spiritual gifts they are interested in?

There are lots of possibilities outside of Wierwille's shoddy Greek work.

You seem very close, chockfull. But do see my (recent) previous post showing that "he" does indeed refer to the man. And yes, your conclusion seems accurate, despite your mistake in grammar.

Spec

I hope I haven't given you the wrong impression, geisha. The Lord has confirmed for me through my Coptic brother and friend in Christ that He is perfectly capable of teaching each of His people exactly what that person needs to know in order to do the job He has for her or him, in terms that person will understand, whether that person has access to a Bible or not.

Hey Steve: As I am continuing to read this Topic (now in Oct 2012), I see my most recent post (just above) is confirmed by this quote of yours.

I believe you are on the right track, my friend!

I have no doubt in my mind, geisha, that you are exactly where God wants you to be, and you are doing the job He wants you to do, and you are receiving every bit as much direction from Him as anybody else ever has.

And you, geisha, just by being yourself, and doing the things you believe the Lord has called you to do, and saying the things you believe the Lord has called you to say, are serving God faithfully and offering irreplacable support for my effort. I can love you because I know the Lord loves me, and He loves you, and He wants me to love you, too!

And I am sure Geisha779 appreciates your words of encouragement as well! I thank you for that.

Regards,

Spec

Twinky:

Forgive the "late post", as I am just now beginning to read this topic, and have a comment concerning your question:

What does 1 Cor 12:11 mean? "...dividing to every man severally as He [he?] will."

And this whole passage is mixed up with that heteros/allos (alleged) difference that VPW claimed.

(And for you Wiewillites, I'm not interested in the PFAL "definition" - I'm interested in what a serious Biblical scholar or professor thinks this means.)

One of the keys in this verse is the word "severally", which is the Greek word idios. All but two usages render it as "one's own, his own, her own, it's own", etc. The other is in 2Pet 1:20…

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private [idios: "one's own"] interpretation."

This makes perfect sense here --- but look what happens in 1Co 12:11, when it is rendered properly…

"But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally [idios: "his own"] as he will."

Grammatically speaking, it is now clear that it means "as the man wills" ---…dividing to every man his own as he wills. As a matter of fact, we get our English word "idiosyncrasy" from idios. (This is in opposition to the many Bible versions which render "he" as "He", etc - referring to God, and not the man himself!)

Now --- because of TWI's influence --- I had supposed the word "will" refers to our believing, in accordance with each of the "9 evidences" (or perhaps the "one manifestation", as to how these all seem to work together as a unit.) But I believe I see even clearer now that it is not referring to our believing for such things to be manifested.

Another key in this verse is the word for "wills" --- boulomai. This does indeed refer to our intellect, including our affections and desires, and our own particular way of doing things. A good rendering would be that it's merely what one is "inclined to do", which makes him a bit different than everyone else. And this is also consistent with idios, as both of these Greek words refer to one's own particular way of doing things, or "idiosyncrasies".

Now, we must also remember that it is God (not the man!) who "worketh" [energeo: "energizes"] these "spiritual evidences". This is most apparent while observing the "triple reflexive" of "the one and self-same Spirit."

Putting it together: God is the only one who energizes these aspects (evidences) of a believer's gift of holy spirit. And he does this "as the man is inclined" to have it so. He works with us individually and personally according to how we think, and never oversteps our desires or intentions. That is how he reveals things of the spirit to us --- by that which He knows we can relate to!

For instance, he can do this by using the lyrics to a favorite song of ours, or a recent experience, or any number of things in our lives - according to the way we think --- by that which He knows we will recognize, and make some sense out of.

Now TWI would have us to suppose WE are willing those things to happen, as though WE are doing the energizing --- which WE ARE NOT! One case in point is what they teach from Act 8:6..."And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he [Philip] did."

From here, they go on about how Philip himself had determined to do the miracles --- on demand, as it were! And then by this example, they attempt to teach believers about performing "all nine all the time", when we have absolutely nothing to do with the "energizing" of those things into evidence, "as the man wills".

For instance, we don't get into a situation where we suppose a miracle is needed, and then attempt to bring one to pass, just because we think that's what God wants. I believe this is where TWI failed. However, if a miracle is needed, we can rely upon God to energize one for us, as we believe. (For now, I am just trying to be simple concerning something which is truly far more complex.)

And, just who is to tell what else may be involved while that miracle is coming to pass in the senses realm? Surely, WOW and WOK, and DOS, and Faith, and perhaps Healings are also taking place. And just who in the heck should be analyzing each "step of that process" which God himself is energizing? For that is impossible to know. Most times, we merely look back after the thing is done, and try to figure what might have happened.

But TWI seems to think we are "in control" of that entire process. To them it's sort of like this: "Well - I need a miracle. So I will speak in tongues to energize my spirit." (But remember, it is God who does the energizing!) "OK, now that is done I think I need some word of knowledge about the situation, so I will just believe, and look for some of that next, and then some word of wisdom as to how I might carry that out. And I will also be sure to be operating discerning of spirits, just in case something might be there to thwart my efforts. And I will look for that, if it is present. And then, somehow, I will just operate faith, and that should do the trick - I will make that miracle happen."

In the above scenario, most times nothing happens because God simply will not energize it for someone who thinks like that, wanting to take credit for himself - that he did it by operating the gift himself. If God energized the spirit like that for everyone, he himself would be promoting error and wrong practice in the lives of his children. And soon, God's spiritual intent would be totally out of control, having been put into the hands of men!

And, if something does happen when believers act in that manner and frame of mind, you can be almost sure that it's the adversary who has been allowed to produce that "lying sign or wonder", just to give credence to their flawed process, and thereby queering what God really wanted. And then the person doing it will openly give credit to God for what his enemy has done. Such a pity!

More easily put, yes - we do the works of Jesus Christ. But we do not determine what they are, or when, or how they will be done. Even Jesus Christ himself did not do that: Jn 5:19..."Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."

When we see God working in a situation, we continue acting on it while God himself is bringing something spiritual to pass, as we allow it. You might say we are merely allowing him to do his own work. A good friend of mine here at GreaseSpot (Tom) put it this way:

God is energizing; you are following his energizing. Even if your following is inspired you speak and act in immediate synch with God's leading, and you are still acting as Jesus said, "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work." (Jn 5:17, two verses previous to the above quote).

I hope this clears some things up a little bit. I will continue reading this Topic. (Perhaps I have merely repeated other things said later in the threads to follow.)

Spec

Is 1 Corinthians 14:4 an instruction, a passing comment, or a commendable endeavor? Or . . . . is it smack dab in the middle of correction and juxtaposed to the demeanor that Paul wanted the Corinthians to adopt, one more in line with the spirit of the gospel?

Paul, starts out in his letter, hoping to again share the true heart of the gospel with this church, but, before he can get to that he has to confront all kinds of craziness. 14 chapters worth! This immature church was off the wall. Corinth was a wealthy port city with an influx of foreigners and a very large and multifaceted Pagan population with an influential culture. They were in the church. Before Paul gets to the gospel, he has to tackle the Corinthian's worldliness, sexual immorality, lawsuits, idol worship and Pagan sacrifice, the marked difference between the rich and poor, their disgraceful behavior at the communion table. Also he had to address their absolute love of making a spectacle of themselves in the assembly by trying to outdo each other in a display of the fantastic. .

In chapter 13, Paul gives us that wonderful synopsis of what love is and what love is not. I notice that this comes on the heels of his dealing with the diversity of spiritual gifts and what unity in diversity means. Paul cuts like a knife through self-centeredness and self-seeking, and then he keeps hammering away at this theme. The phrase "One another" is used more frequently here in Corinthians than anywhere else in the NT. There is a reason for that. These believers were fond of exhibition and self aggrandizement. Many were seeking after tongues. Paul explains that not everyone has the same gift.

The ironic thing, is that this church didn't lack in spiritual gifts....it was a highly gifted church.

When Paul begins his synopsis on genuine vs counterfeit love......He starts out speaking about the tongues of men and angels. Where did that come from? No one was speaking angels tongues in Acts? I, and others believe, that the Corinthians, who were a carnal and ego based group were making "one up ya" claims and raising the bar to claim they also spoke the language of angels. Paul is taking those claims and turning them right back on them. If I speak in angels tongues or mans tongues.....it doesn't mean a thing if I don't have love. He does this with prophecy....if I understand ALL mysteries, ALL knowledge, ALL faith, so that I can move mountains....If I donate ALL my goods and give my body to be burned even...I gain nothing without the proper attitude of love.

Paul is not claiming he actually speaks in the tongues of angels anymore than he is claiming he has ALL knowledge, ALL faith, or understands ALL mysteries. Later on he writes that we see through a glass darkly. He is saying that even if they reached the pinnacle of knowledge, wisdom, tongues and so on....it amounts to nothing without love. He tells them that.....love is not boastful....it doesn't seek its own. It doesn't act improperly. He tells them that their prophecies are going to end...their tongues are going to cease, and when that which is perfect comes along......the partial will cease altogether

They had seriously lost their focus.

Paul is reading them the riot act in a loving way, and this is all correction. One would think, that would be enough to get his point across, but he keeps going. He wants them to desire gifts.....but, to what end?

Why would he want them to desire prophecy? Because everyone was claiming their turn at the microphone for exhibition.(I think this is where counterfeit comes in BTW.) Great, everyone has a tongue, but no interpreters. Tongues were only building up the people speaking them but, he addressed what they are without love...nothing!! They were self-gratifying...I mean edifying. It was an ego based edification.

Paul was encouraging them to desire benefit for everyone....he was pleading with them. He tells them, since no one understands what someone is saying when they SIT....they are speaking a mystery. It is all Greek to me. Only God understood them. It is not that they were speaking some deep mysteries to God.....what good with that do the person SIT? He doesn't understand and it isn't doing God any favors....nothing is a mystery to Him. It is not speaking of some spiritual body building. And I believe this for many reasons.....one being that all believers are commanded to be filled with the HS, but not all believers SIT. We are filled and strengthened by God's grace and mercy.

Paul juxtaposes the two attitudes....self...which he has been tackling right along....and love and desire to benefit the body. Others. One another....a body. An attitude that runs in line with the spirit of the gospel......a desire to encourage, edify, or console the church. Later on, he likens SIT without an interpreter for intelligible speech, to speaking into the air. That is a radical departure from speaking deep mysteries to God. Whistling in the wind. . . . . . It comes right back to you.

Scripture does say that that he who speaks in a tongue builds himself up, that is not a lie, but then Paul immediately compares this to the better gift and speaker which builds up the church. Which attitude is he promoting? What is he pleading with them to seek? Self edification by showing off and building their ego or the desire to use a gift to benefit others? I am thinking 14:4 wasn't a command, or a laudable act....but rather a problem. The edification came because they were using their gift, but it meant nothing as they were seeking their own....because that is not love and without love it is empty.....void.

I didn't use "IMO", or "I think" as much as I should have, but please, insert them wherever you like. This is how I read these verses....in light of the correction of gross error and the heart of the gospel Paul is really wanting to share with them. He finally gets there in 15.

Someone will mention prayer in the spirit....and oddly enough....I have a take on that too! If you read this entire post....I salute you.

Hi geisha779 ---

Nice post!

This may be a little outdated, since I just now began to read this topic and its threads. But thus far, I have something to comment upon about your post here....a poem I wrote long ago....which (of course) is still timely information. I hope you enjoy it. (I will be continuing to read this topic and I may comment again later on.)

Something Worth Giving

by Melvin W. Elliott - 1975

Is there something worth giving you can give to a friend?

Do it now while he's living; do not wait till the end.

Though one's mind holds all mysteries, knowledge and faith,

His deeds won't be history without love; there's no trace.

While bestowing one's treasures to feeding the poor,

He can give without measure, yet one thing is sure:

Even giving his life for a great, noble cause

Will profit him nothing; without God's love it's lost.

Charity is giving God's love to mankind,

And it's given with cheerfulness; it's not hard to find.

So study His Word and share to begin,

And you'll see that God's charity is right there within.

Whatever you do for God, do it with might!

And share it with charity; fight the good fight.

So give what's worth giving; God's keeping the score;

So that now and in heaven you'll receive your rewards.

Spec :)/>

Very interesting "INFO-ABSORPTION".

I'm just glad I won't be here for "round two", as it were!

SPEC

With God, time is an eternal NOW. Time is not a linear thing such as we know.

So that means:

Now, right now, the earth is being made into what we now know.

Now, right now, Adam is being created.

Now, right now, Adam is falling.

Now, right now, prophecies are being given about Christ coming.

Now, right now, Christ is coming.

Now, right now, Christ is being executed.

Now, right now, Christ is rising from the dead.

Now, right now, the time of Pentecost is occurring.

Now, right now, YOU are being born.

Now, right now, all the events of your life are taking place.

Now, right now, YOU are dying, dead, and your funeral is taking place.

Now, right now, the time of Revelation is occurring.

And so, it doesn't matter if you're a dispensationalist, a preterist, a whatever or a something else.

It gives a somewhat different perspective on life, foreknowledge, predestination, fatalism, and how you live your day today.

Not saying that I agree or disagree with this view - just saying it's another take on Christianity and God's plans that some people espouse. Good strong fervent Christians too, not drum-bangers but with a desire to educate God's people into a fuller spiritual awareness.

Twinky,

What an apt description of God's omnipotence, and foreknowing!

That aside, it's nice to know that we still have choices to make in life. Let us choose to do good, and not evil, and let us enjoy the rewards we are laying up for ourselves when that "time" comes.

Eccl 12:

13 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear [respect] God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil."

Spec :)/>

We hang back behind walls we've built between us and else. Jesus, the beautiful one, our beloved, stands behind our wall, he looks in through the windows, showing himself through the latticework. If we behold him there, he speaks to us and says to us, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away. Come out from behind that wall you've built. Come with me into the springtime; the earth is bearing fruit.

It sounds that, like the Magi, you noticed the clues that the Lord left you, the Lord, peeking through the latticework, and followed him out into the springtime bearing fruit.

Tom, my friend and brother in Christ,

I simply love your style of writing! It reads like "prose poetry". It stimulates the mind and excites the imagination.

Now I understand why I was ranting a bit about my former years with "you know who" - I rarely do that. After finishing what I had to say, I was mindful to just delete it and answer to the topic with a short thread. But somehow I guess it was ok, for your sake.

And how meek you are! It surprised me how you actually ordered the book, as my intention in the post was certainly not just to "peddle" a few more of them.

And thanks for letting me know that you didn't mind sifting through my post by saying "it required no patience". That too, was most refreshing! (Sometimes I judge my manner as too lengthy and detailed for most to bear, when I am merely assuring myself they will have enough to get the point - and I often say more than is probably necessary to convince myself it will be understood in the end.)

As for my book: Knowing you realize that nothing man does is perfect, I'm sure it will not be a shock to you if "little errors" appear here and there, according your level of scope concerning the Scripture. I am most confident they will not be a bother to you whatsoever. (However, if there IS something glaring, I trust you might bring that to my attention. Thank you!)

At the risk of again appearing foolish (by the multitude of words), I am mindful to let you in on something which is not in the book - perhaps only for your amusement. (Because of its nature, I may have just "friended you" here and sent it in a private message.) But what the heck --- I am not ashamed of it being made public. If people want to scoff, that's ok with me!

The revealing of the whole concept for my book turned out to be some marvelous "divine distraction from my carnal woes" at the time, perhaps the lowest point in my life to-date. I was sitting in yet another PFAL class in Phoenix AZ (my 50^th or so), right behind the adulterer who had stolen my wife and children while we were all living in Oregon. (In Sep '87, I came home to a short note from my wife after work one day saying she was leaving - and there was no address or number.)

By December (while witnessing in my neighborhood) I just happened to be speaking with an old lady who turned out to be his grandmother! She felt bad for me. Although she had been instructed not to divulge their whereabouts, God worked in her heart to inform me they were in Phoenix, a 1000 miles away.

So I quit my job, left college, and moved to Phoenix. By June '88, he was taking PFAL for the first time, and my seat assignment was directly behind him. And his lover (my wife) was there as well.

[it's curious how everyone around knew the situation, but did nothing about it. In fact, I found out some time after the class that a Reverend living in the area was planning to perform their "ministry wedding" just as soon as my wife could serve me the "final decree". (Go figure!) Sorry for the detail - I just wanted you to understand my predicament, so you may better appreciate what God did for me during my time of woe.]

I just cannot put into words how I truly felt during that class, but had hope that this guy (and my wife as well) would wise up once he understood the Word and they might stop all this nonsense so I could have my family back.

The grads were given an assignment to do a word study on "abundance" as in Jn 10:10. I had always loved to study. After three days I had looked up all the usages of "perisso" and turned my work in. (I can't honestly say I learned anything more from that study about how immense our abundance is in Christ. I sort of knew it was pretty big already from other classes, fellowships and research over the years.)

But a curious thing was happening in my life during the next three mornings. As my manner is, I would begin the day by reading the Bible for a few minutes. As sometimes happens, I couldn't decide just where to read. (We all do that, huh?) Well, it was the third day in a row this had happened and I was not pleased with myself at all!

Years before, I had come up with a remedy for this "terrible habit of indecision". I would simply invoke a penalty of sorts - that I must now read the entire Bible! That way, for about a year or so, it would be much easier to decide where to read in the mornings. And after I was finished, I'd be damned sure to make up my mind a little quicker from then on! (And please don't ask how many times I have had to do that, for I would be ashamed to tell you!)

So, I began my task in Gen 1:1. When I reached verse 20, I noticed the word "abundantly". Having already turned in my assignment, I thought to myself: "Darn - this is it's first usage in the Bible! What a shame I had not included it, for noting that research key would surely have impressed the class leader!" (I didn't have the Septuagint yet.) By the next verse I saw it again, and thought: "Darn - it's there twice in a row, meaning it's established, and I missed yet another chance to impress him!"

It's funny though. With "abundance on the brain" from my recent studying, (and having learned that words in the scriptures are defined in their initial usage) I could not help applying its implication to what I had studied. In the context, it was apparent that God was using all the life in all the oceans of the world as an example of just what abundance might entail. I was simply thrilled by that implication!

And I must admit that those two simple verses did more for me to further appreciate the possible immensity of our abundance during this Age of Grace than that entire 3-day word study. WOW!

Soon, I reached verse 23: "And the evening and the morning were the fifth day." Strangely, the word "fifth" seemed to be in bold print. And then, something came over me which was quite amazing. (I do not teach phenomena, which is why I didn't comment on this in my book. But I am pleased to tell you about it, Tom, perceiving you are a man of understanding.)

The light around me dimmed a bit as I stared at the word "fifth" in amazement. All of a sudden I felt as "high as a kite" and my eyes were even glazed over, just as I had experienced years before during my "drug days" back in the 60's. (I would be willing to bet that if I had looked into a mirror, they would have been red as a beet too!) As a matter of fact, after the first minute or so it felt as though I were "somewhere else", just like on LSD, or something. What a trip, man! (But I knew I was still there in my living room reading the Bible.)

The entire "vision" (or whatever it truly was) lasted from about 2-5 minutes or so (I cannot tell). Whether it was phenomena, revelation, or my own mind at work is hard to fathom. Most likely, it was a combination of things.

During that time, the first thing I noticed was a possible parallel between this word "abundance" and our 5^th administration, where we see our great riches in Christ. Just to be sure it might truly be something of significance, I remember quickly scanning Genesis One to see if it appeared on any other day. And it didn't!

Then it occurred to me that there are a total of 7 days here in Genesis One, and I had been taught that there are also 7 administrations which cover the entire Bible. What a stretch of the imagination to suppose that each of these days might mysteriously relate to each of the administrations in some kind of perfect order!

As marvelous as this all seemed to me, I still considered I may just be projecting my own thoughts into the Bible, based on some presupposed notion or premise - which is utterly wrong practice while honestly working the scriptures! But because I felt high without drugs and realized that somehow God may be orchestrating all of this, I rather considered it to be an exception to the norm. So I just relaxed and allowed him to "do his thing."

Immediately, dozens of ideas and related verses were streaming through my mind, all connecting up into some wonderful amazing pattern. It was like "sunesis on steroids". The amount of things God can show someone in a moment of time is simply amazing! (He's the master teacher, for sure.)

After a short time the "vision" was over. I had returned from wherever the heck I had been; my eyes instantly felt normal and I was no longer high.

And such began my noble quest to look deeply into this matter: "searching the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." (Acts 17:11) And I also decided to be kind to myself by rescinding that "self-inflicted punishment" of having to read the whole Bible through again. And from then on, I've never had a problem deciding where to read in the mornings.

Also --- I was no longer distracted during the rest of that PFAL class, for I now had plenty to keep my mind upon - rather than my own "earthly troubles". All of that seemed utterly trivial in comparison to what had been revealed to me. And it didn't bother me much at all when my wife married her new lover soon after that. Amazingly, it was only two months later that I met my present wife. We will celebrate our 25^th anniversary next year.

Though I cannot remember all of which had been revealed during those few precious moments, I would be willing to bet that most of it ended up in my book after having thoroughly investigated that "notion" to my own satisfaction. I finally published my findings in January of 2010. Enjoy!

With great anticipation, I am looking forward to your take on it. In the meantime, if you have any questions do feel free to contact me at any time.

SPEC :)/>

I believe he was born on Sept. 11 in the year 3 BC within whatever time frame JCOPS says. Now, I could be wrong. I did think I was wrong once, but I was mistaken :anim-smile:/>

Someplace in the Word it says that if any man thinks he knows anything, let him know this, that no man knows anything like he ought to know it - something like that. I think that's the only basis upon which to have an honest & humble discussion from which people can leave bigger than they were before. Anything else is residual know that we know that we know that we know. Can't learn anything with that attitude. Isn't it enough that we can know that which is beyond knowledge?

Anyway, here's why I believe JCOPS. I figure people can talk themselves into just about anything, yet I do believe the Word was/is written in the stars pretty much like I believe the Word is written on paper these days. With all the meanings of the names of the houses of the Zodiak, the constellations, the stars, the planets, & the amazing way all of that whole thing fits together storywise, it seems to me that it is not only plausible that the Word is written in the stars, it's like it's right there. How can anyone say it is not there when there it is? To not believe that is like saying maybe there was a tribe of gypse jugglers who juggled letters over gazillions of generations, & one day they all happened to fall down in the form of the bible. OK, so maybe not to that extent, but you get the way my reasoning goes. That whole Word in the stars thing, the names of all those constructions & how all that so fits with the Word just impresses the heck out of me.

And I can see where people who were so versed in that whole thing would notice massings of planets, then this, then that, & knowing the meanings of all these things could get blown away by all that so to say THIS is no coincidence.

I remember some TWI guy sharing with us that he went to the NY planetarium over the Christmas holidays, & the show showed three of those heavenly happenings & how theypossibly indicated JC was born in the fall. So, he gave the guy a copy of JCOPS, & the next year the show included all 6 of them (was it 6?). NY planetarium - that impressed me. Now, I didn't see the show, but I got it from the horses mouth. Hope that doesn't make me the horses you know what.

So, by this time, I'm really intirued by this whole Word in the stars thing & the amazing story it seems to be telling. After a few years of this stuff gumming up my brain cells, I have to attend to it more closely & either accept it with more of a degree of certainty or discount the whole thing & move on. So I buy this software - fairly serious stuff. You know the whole Universe moves & works like clockwork. No one denies THAT, right? I mean, that's why we have clocks & calendars & all - because the Universe works that way. So, these days, especially with computers, they can figure out all kinds of stuff. So, this software was pretty cool. With it, you could look at the known Universe on your computer monitor. As a matter of fact, you could go forward & backwards 6000 years & see what the Univers looked like then. Actually, you could look at the Universe from the perspective of any point in the known Universe. Cool stuff.

So I load up this software, & go back to 9/11 3 BC & look to see if those heavenly configurations described in JCOPS were really there - actually, many were supposed to be there such & such time before his birth, leading up to his birth. Anyway, I'm looking. AND THEY ARE NOT THERE!!. Now, I'm ....ed. It's all a big scam. Boy, do I feel stupid & taken advantage of. :realmad:/>

Then I realized I was looking from the perspective of South Florida. Could that make such a difference. So I moved my point of perspective over to Jerusalem and there they were - well the ones that ocurred from that point.

If I'm wrong, the rest of this borders on superstition. I figure that the Devil knows when JC was born & just like we honor JC on his birth (even if we are wrong on the date), his birth & our honoring of his birth bothers him no end. He hates his birth as much as we love it. My mom was born on 9/11. She also broke her hip on 9/11. My dad tripped in the parking lot, & I found him unconcious in a pool of blood - on 9/11. It got to the point that we told them they weren't allowed to go out of the house on 9/11 anymore. Oh, yeah, I found my dad on the 9/11/2001, so yes, the terrorist attacks happened on 9/11. Many people still intensely, blood boilingly, hate that date. The last conversation that I had with one of the principals I served under, she shared with me that her son was coming home for on leave from Iraq & mentioned how he hated the date, 9/11. I shared with her what I just shared with you. She heartliy thanked me & said that she would share it with her son when he came home - that maybe it would help him get over all the heat that burns within him on that date. If 9/11 is really JC's birthday, & the Devil wanted to have Christians filled with other than Christian feelings on that day, he certainly succeeded.

BTW, I just want you to know that you know that you know that if I'm wrong about that date, I didn't just type all this. There is a band of letter juggling gypsies inside my computer, & all the letters just happened to come out that way.

Be of good cheer,

Tom

Tom:

Your story was very refreshing! And how resourceful it was for you to change your "perspective" and find the "signs" still there (which may have prompted the Magi to plan a trip, etc...)! I also read JCOPS, and other related things such as Wittness of the Stars by Bullinger.

As for me, my days with TWI ended after quite a few (30+) faithful years, when I finally learned that they were just not interested in something I had found. (I guess by then, because of the "fog" - if you remember that time - there was sort of a "ban on new research", known only within the "inner circles" such as the Corps, and Clergy, etc. - but I had to find out the hard way!) :asdf:/> When any new research came along, I guess FLAGS went up, and the machinery was set in motion to discourage it.

Pitifully though, I didn't realize that --- Because of the nature of my "wonderful discoveries" I was minded to only share it with Corps and above, because just a little of it differed from what they had been teaching in PFAL. (Later I thought it best to only share it with the "ordained" Revs.) I just didn't want it getting out of hand, or start a stink by sharing it with others first, before the "leader...." was made privy to it. I believe I was acting commendable in God's eyes.

Instead of noticing their non-interest, I chose to think that the "Limp and Legion" (Ha!) Corrdinators I was trying to share it with were just "too busy" to take it all in, and if I were patient enough, eventually they would see it. (My meetings with them were rather brief, and their calendars were always full, as usuual.) So I didn't mind the wait. What I hated though, was that I was never able to conclude anything by the time they had to leave on another assignment -- and i would have to start over with his replacement! :asdf:/> I did that over and over for a decade or so. (What a chump I was, supposing they would really appreciate this "great stuff", once they got up to speed with it!) Personally, I would rank the level of my findings up with their Athletes of the Spirit discovery - for which they did a full production, with an orchestra, etc! IMHO What I found could have made a FAR GREATER impact even all of that, but they just didn't care enough to just look at it with an open heart!

And boy -- how they would have soaked it all in had they done so!! It was right up their alley! Truth is, later on I realized it was neither their lack of interest nor my inability to make it plain to them all those years - AND it was also not the adversary keeping it from them somehow (for I am sure they would have loved it). After a long battle, when I finally realized I was getting nowhere, I left them.

After coming here to GreaseSpot, and seeing how they really did things at TWI, It was then then that I realized that it was God himself who had organized things so they would not have my research for themselves! If they had really seen its value, they would surely have stolen it from me - just as they had done to many others before me. And even if the adversary had truly been involved anyways, it was God who allowed it to be so! (God takes the wise in their own craftiness!)

I guess God thought this good enough to protect it from their greedy little hands so I could enjoy it, and make it available to everyone who wants it, and not have it hidden in some tiny, second-rate bookstore for a few chosen people to have --- and with somebody ele's name on it! Ha! Ha! I sould have wised up long before I did and saved myself fropm another 12 years or so with them, huh? (Talk about being patient to a fault --- my bad! --- LOL)

So, anyways - now it is mine alone - for it is published worldwide, in a book. Gee....why am I telling you all this detail? Oh yeah! Part of what I had found relates to this thread --- sorry for getting carried away, and for all of the ranting, Tom....

...I'll try to be brief now. ----- What I saw basically was a direct correlation between the 7 days in Genesis One and the 7 Administrations. (Nuff of that for now!) Anyways, I find it curiously interesting that the only place in Genesis that talks about the stars just happens to be on the 4th day, which (according my "vast:" research) corresponds to the 4th administration - which is the Christ Admin, or Gopspel Period - where we just happen to find the records of the Magi, and the birth of Jesus Christ, etc. (Pretty cool stuff, I think!)

Even the word "signs" found during the 4th day is "simeon" in the LXX, meaning God's announcing of some important event (or significant person) to come. And the word for "seasons" there denotes a specific time and place, like an "appointment". Just think of that in light of the Magi coming at the right time and place to see something of great significance!!!

I guess what I'm trying to say is: that I am convinced about the Word being written in the stars, and can appreicate what you found with your nice "software". BUT! --- If anyone can come along and simply show me something which makes even more sense, I will naturally change my position in a hearbeat !

Now --- of course I realize that my "premise" sounds a little wild and crazy (and to some, downright ridiculous!). But basically, the few things I did mention about the 4th day, etc, are not just coincidences. I have found literally hundreds (if not thousands!) of other similar parallels which tie my "notion" together about the 7 days and administrations complimenting each other throughout the Word. Now, all of that cannot just be coincidental, can it?

Anyways, my book is entitled Genesis One: God's Table of Contents to the Bible, should you want to see more. You can find it easily enough if you want, and Amazon will let you see quite a bit of it by "looking inside". Thanks for your patience.

SPEC :)/>

Melvin W. Elliott

Ok, Ok - why make you wait? Here's a brief look at it...

Re 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen…

(Now of course we know this record has to do with that which will happen in the future, concerning Israel - and nobody will really know all the details surrounding those events except those who will be living though it.)

Strangely though, this first letter actually also has a lot in common with the first time in the Bible - in the Paradise of Eden, which concerns the first man, Adam.

We all know the story: Adam fell short in his obligation to God by accepting that which Eve brought him to eat from the tree God had commanded him not to partake of. God's desire should have been his first priority instead of what his wife wanted. As a result, they were both expelled from Eden, etc…

Let me put that in other words for you:

(1) By deciding not to obey the one and only commandment given to him, Adam fainted in his obligation toward God.

(2) By eating the forbidden fruit, Adam left his first love (who should have been God) by choosing to love his wife first instead - by doing what she wanted instead of what God wanted.

(3) What resulted is what we commonly refer to as the fall of man.

Of course you have noticed the underlined words in the verses above - do you consider that interesting? "But wait --- there's more!"

Now - compare the promise at the end of the letter in verse 7 with something also found in Eden, during the first administration.

Re 2:7 To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Ge 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

SPEC :)/>

Trying to understand these seven churches more, does anyone know more about these churches? Seems the Way lost their first love, along time ago? That one knucklehead leader loved dancing more than what our first love should be?

http://www.bing.com/...on+study+videos

You betcha I do, pal! Your request is yet another part of what "I found". Patience, please...it's coming!

SPEC :)/>

My take on this is that most preterists are merely lured into supposing that all prophecy has been fulfilled by comparing events in the book of Revelation with old and new testament records to find similarities. Some of today's prognosticators go further than Scripture itself, while exploring all the possibilities that seem to exist between Revelation and events even beyond the time when all Biblical records were finally written down - by also taking into account events which have happened since 100 AD or so - even until now!

It's not difficult to find such things within the Bible, for this concept does exist and is indeed valid. But the truth about the events written in the OT is that they were indeed "shadows of things to come". It's a true saying that history tends to repeat itself.

That which will occur during the time of the book of Revelation will be as a mirror image, paralleling that which has already happened in times past. Though these events will merely be a reflection of those same types of things, they will not correspond with those similar records in every detail. In reality though, many things will actually become much worse in scope!

For instance, we have yet to record any hailstones that ever weighed a "talent" (See Rev 16:21), which - in our English system of measuring - is 50 pounds! :o/> (Even the largest one on record to-date only weighed in at 2.25 pounds.)

Not only does the book of Revelation have references to former and future things, but it also contains many things which are of value to us during our present time as well! Therefore, in its true light it is seen as "eternal truth" which is good for all time - the past, the present, and the future!

However, the book of Revelation was not written concerning these former or future events themselves. In truth, those were merely written as examples for us that we may learn something by! When we approach that book seeking details on how to apply godly principles, then we will have something which will help us excel in life while we're here upon Earth!

The simple truth we can glean from studying the book of Revelation is not about what people did in the past, or what some will be doing in the future. It's really about what we desire to accomplish for ourselves today!

Spec :)/>

reading "i wish you could see it in the original" right here right now just struck me as saying "there is no original out there so trust me on this one". funny how this is the first time that hit me like that.

Great insight, sir! It's not as though the man was stupid enough to say in one breath that his desire was for us to see the originals, (indicating that he had somehow seen them himself) and then turn right around and teach us that there are no originals. At least I will give the man some credit for brains.

But the real point here is that he wanted us to believe that he DID have access to the originals - not the documents themselves, but from their SOURCE - because God spoke to him often.

It's funny also that, although he taught us that we should not put our trust in men, but in God, many times he did say, "Trust ME on this one." - like he did concerning the "original sin" in CF&S.

That's about as close as one would get to saying he was as God himself, without really saying it in so many words. We are supposed to hold God in awe and esteem, and certainly VP wanted that from his followers. (And he rather expected it from the Corps!)

SPEC

:)

This is a very interesting topic, waysider! My replys (with boxes) are in red.

"I wish you could see it in the original."

Remember the first time Wierwille said that? I think it was someplace in PFAL., when he was talking about the genealogy of Jesus Christ. Notice that he didn't say "I wish I could------" or "I wish WE could-----". What he said was "I wish YOU could---". It's a subtle way of implying that he alone had seen it in the original or, at the very least, knew what the original actually said. Right there in PFAL he was setting himself up to be someone who had special knowledge that others lacked...

Great insight, waysider! I am very fond of semantics myself, and am enjoying all the "sarcastic replys" as well. (I do so love sarcasm - as you are recently well aware of - no harm intended, friend! LOL)

Hahahaha!!!! ~ I wish you could see it in the original,... But then again, if yer in this Class, you've pretty much given up all hope of seein' anything new, or original,... eh?

How true! How true!

...VP's referring to...Jesus... "...and his disciples heard it. I wish you could see it in the original...." ....What's funny is that at a later session we learn there are no "originals" in existence, "...at best we just have copies...." So, there weren't any "originals" for him to wish we could see.

I bet VP even overlooked this blunder of his. How very subtle it was - Being fairly logical myself, I am suprised I didn't pick up on this one years ago myself. Great detective work, Broken Arrow!

Maybe what he was really saying was "I wish I could be original."

Anyway-----Why was VP allowed to "wish" for stuff and we weren't?

YEAH! Like Broken Arrow had also indicated, I "hope" we can find more stuff relating to this topic.

What is funnier is apply that statement to VP's literary works. RHST - "I wish you could see that in the original" by JE Stiles.

Heh heh, Chockfull, you're saying he was admitting his plagiarism!! Good one.

Ain't that the truth! Great insight you two.

It is rather interesting (as waysider pointed out) that VP was setting the stage early to hold his followers in AWE of his "special knowledge"...Wasn't he rather boasting when he said God spoke to him audibly, saying he would "show him the Word like it hadn't been known for centuries, if he would only teach it."? In a subtle way, he (again) was elevating himself above everyone who had not yet heard God speaking out loud to them - or whoever would, for that matter. (I often wonder if he really heard out loud from God himself.)

Somewhere in PFAL, VP was mocking theologians who said, "I've got the ANSWERS!" (anyone remember that one?). Funny, isn't it - he didn't consider it mocking when it was himself who HAD THE ANSWERS!

I remember once at a Rock of Ages where he was teaching in the big top one night, expounding upon some details within the concept of administrations which were way beyond PFAL. He was saying stuff like, "You don't read the past into the present, or the present into the past, etc." He sounded so authoratative because he spoke slowly, and had long pauses between statements. I know many who supposed God was giving it to him right there on the spot, just by the way he deliberated his teaching.

Later on, when I was reading Bullinger's book "How to Enjoy the Bible", I noticed that a great amount of everything he had said in PFAL was already in that book - and many times VERBATIM! In fact, that book reads just like PFAL - not just the learning but even the examples were the same, but spoken as if they were "his own". If you have ever read that book, it looks every bit like it was the blueprint for the PFAL class.

And it is "curious" how he never let on that he was quoting from that book. If someone had never pointed that book out to me, I may have never really realized the extent of the "theft" of it within PFAL.

As waysider had pointed out: "He was a master manipulator of nuance."

Maybe this will give us all more to elaborate on.

SPEC

:)

It's always been my view that God invented color in all its vividness, intensity, vibrancy...and to wear bright colors is to honor God.

God could have made things in black and white...or green, yellow and red...but he chose a whole range of color to express himself and ... just for pleasure! How beautifully colored things are - that we cannot see - the workings inside animals and humans - fish at the very bottom of the sea - plants that have colors the human eye cannot see...but bees can. What playfulness!! What variety!!

Always amazes me that churchmen dress traditionally in long BLACK robes. Black the color of darkness.

All the best with your book, Spec.

How wonderfully put, Twinx! Amazingly enough, the thing about the long black robes just never ocurred to me...interesting point.

Actually, the color aspect of my study didn't appear until 7 years into the research. I started discovering it quite by accident while "playing around" with my (then) favorite chapter in the Bible, Genesis One, one Saturday morning.

At first, I thought I was the only one to have seen it (in our time). As I learned more about it, the notion started becoming so comfortable and obvious to me that I was "sure" somebody else must have seen it in the world today.

After searching the net for indications (for about 3 years), I had found some attempts at such a thing, but it seems nobody had been able to put it all together as I had done. The main reason for this was their lack of understanding about biblical administrations, which was where my book actually got its start. It is within that realm that many of the "missing pieces" lie.

Not to act "proud" in the wrong way, I believe I have taken the concept of administations (or "dispensations", as some have called them throughout the centuries) to new heights. I believe I may be the first one to really have them correct.

It amazes me to have seen this pattern in nature. As you started to indicate, Twinx, the colors in our frequency range are seen quite vividly, yet in nature there exists the same spendor in other ranges which are not visible to our eyes. For instance, many moths look grey and dingy to us, but they see each other in beautiful arrays of color because their vision is tuned to the ultraviolet spectrum.

Things in this world are much more intricate and wonderful than we humans can appreciate. And the closer we look, the better it gets!

Well, I better shut up before I starting writing my book again right here...

SPEC

Thats great!

Congratulations :)

Thank you Galen - that was kind of you. As it is written, "Rejoice with them that do rejoice..." (Ro 12:15)

Spec

Thanks to all my friends, my first book is now a finished reality and is currently available online! To be among the very first to see it, you may order an advanced copy directly from my publisher - even before its "official worldwide release date" of January 18th, 2011. Just click the link at the end of this post. Enjoy!

For those of you who do not know me, I have always loved researching the Bible. Although I am no longer with TWI, I do admit that it was there where I first received keys as to how to do Biblical research. Although a lot of it was just common sense, I admit I did learn a few things from them. Since leaving, I do find that most of those same keys have always been around…here and there…but it was nice to have them all in one package in their foundational class.

Ironically, it was my interest in Biblical research that got me into TWI in the first place, yet it was my own research which provided a way out of there for my wife & I! It seems they were only interested in what they had already published or were promoting at the time, and there was no room for anything new, expecially from someone like me! (I was never in the Corps, and it had been years since I ran a fellowship.)

I tried my best to show them, but to no avail. Yes, they liked the way I taught (as long as it was "the present truth", as they saw it); many did manage to laugh at my jokes - and they really loved my wife & I performing music at Region Meetings, etc. But when it came to what I loved most…or what I truly believed God was showing me…they had little or no interest at all.

Believing God would not want these discoveries hidden again for centuries, I decided to publish them for the world to see.

For those who enjoy seeing how the physical realm relates and aligns with the spiritual; how the natural and supernatural compliment one another, this should be very exciting to see. For those who like science and physics, I have shown how God has displayed the principle of the refration of light into its spectrum of color right in the very first chapter of Genesis! (Now you can understand the rainbow as my avatar and my pen name as Spectrum..) :)

When you get right down to it, in one way or another, the entire Bible can be summed up into just one word…LIGHT! God is light, the scriptures are called light, Jesus Christ was referred to as great light, and even among unbelievers, people generally see good things as light and evil things as darkness.

So when God said Let there be light, what was he implying? He wants the good to be seen. He wants the truth to be shared. By publishing this book, I believe I am following that first instruction which the Master Author pennned.

I do hope you all enjoy reading this work, which is the result of over 20 years of research. I know it is not 100% perfect…nothing man does is; but it is the best I can do.

I look forward to your comments and honest critique. I also have great anticipation to see other related facets of this diamond, as you observe them with your own scope of the Bible. I know I have just found the tip of the iceburg.

Thanks for listening, and enjoy! To obtain an advanced copy of this book directly from my publisher, you may click this link: Genesis One

On His Majesty's Service,

Mel (SPEC)

Excuse me all for sounding trite, but I believe the end is near (or should be) for this topic. The points have been well-made concerning TWI’s method of “research”. I fear that more posts will merely hide those great points in obscurity – especially among over 400 of them to this point in time.

Much has been learned on this, (and a few related topics as well) and I am thankful for that, but lately I have seen nothing I would call provocative on the subject. To me, it is becoming threadbare. (except there probably will still be many more “threads” to come! )

I almost cannot fathom that the sub-topic of the “inerrancy (or not) of the scriptures” (which has been carried on from rather early in this long-winded discussion) has been done so even without a “good working definition of it” -- that is, according to at least one individual. That irony makes me laugh so hard I could just cry!

Of late, in my heart I seem reminded of a verse relating to this matter:

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

God considers preaching [that which is proclaimed by a herald or public crier] to be foolishness. [Greek = moria, meaning silliness, i.e. absurdity—from which we derive the word moron! ] God has implied here that it should have been rather obvious for people to realize about Him through “world wisdom”; that is, by noticing his handywork in nature. Truly He is all around us in that respect. In Romans 1:20 He declares there is no excuse for anyone not to believe because there is so much evidence of Him “by the things which were made.”

But since He realized people still didn’t believe, somehow it pleased him to even condescend to the moronic level of "preaching" in order that people may yet be saved.

It does seem rather silly to go on and on and on about something and still consider it wise to do so. Wisdom is usually stated plainly and simply. But somehow, each party involved in a “debate” supposes that their next pithy point may just be the “final word” on the matter.

But alas, such is not the case. Some will believe, and some will not. And that is true no matter how many words are used to try and sway somebody one way or the other. I believe the majority of those who will have changed their minds (or at least learned about the topic at hand) have already done so long ago. And as I said earlier, anyone who has a question along these lines may be hard-pressed to find the best answers when they are hidden in such a “sea of rhetoric”. And this sea may yet become a mighty ocean!

The initial posts had done a good job in helping people see the point. Many of the rest only served to “win a few more”, and to “divide the camps”. I perceive that much of what has been shared for the last 100 posts or so may equate to little more than a debate among those who adhere (or not) to the original topic, despite the fact that neither will move an inch. What does it serve to continue providing more fuel for an already raging fire?

Pr 26:20 Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out…

I’m afraid that (for me) this topic has become somewhat hackneyed. When will it end?

SPEC

:)

Workman, if Charlene posts an essay here, isn't it more courteous to discuss it here, rather than in some other location? Better yet, privately with her?

But journalistic integrity -- not to mention the love of God -- requires that before I post anything, that I do my best to rehearse my take on your essay with you, in a format where you are able to respond in whatever fashion that you would care to.

Twinky: (And Workman, please correct me if I am mistaken.)

I believe what Workman is indicating is that he will be posting on his website the results of "his take" of what has been concluded here concerning this topic, after he has had the opportunity to discuss it in detail here first.

SPEC

:)

Is Paul perhaps defining "scripture" as that which is given by inspiration of God, thus saying that which is given by inspiration of God is given by inspiration of God? What is that called, a tautology? Kind of like, "I have said what I have said".

I believe I have just coined a new word which describes a method used by TWI: tauntology !

Its meaning (combining taunt & tautology) would be rendered: "The redundant usage of words while goading someone into responding, often in an aggressive manner."

One example of tauntology is in session 12 of TWI's foundational class, where they "encourage" the students to speak in tongues for the first time.

SPEC

:)

It will be interesting to follow the term “scripture” through the texts and actually see if there is a pattern. I personally think that, in the context of Romans 16:25 and 26, the scriptures referred to are the ones penned after Pentecost...

…I also agree, at least partially, in the idea that there was a broader sense of what canon was in Paul (and Jesus’) time...

OK, Bob – I’ll bite! First, I will do my best to define the word “scripture” as used in 2Ti 3:16, referencing it from 3 different Greek Lexicons (to be less biased).

Since it is the word #1124, which was derived from #1125, I have referenced them both. [However, at this time I care not to expand it by referencing the OT equivalents from the Septuagint (LXX).] Then I will add some “food for thought”.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture <Strong’s #1124 - from #1125> is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

OLB – (Online Bible Greek Lexicon):

1124 graphe

AV-scripture 51; 51

1) a writing, thing written

2) the Scripture, used to denote either the book itself, or its contents

3) a certain portion or section of the Holy Scripture

STR – (Strong’s Greek Lexicon):

1124. graphe; a document, i.e. holy Writ (or its contents or a statement in it):— scripture.

NAS – (New American Standard Greek Lexicon):

1124. graphe; from 1125; a writing, scripture:—

NAS-Scripture (31), Scriptures (20).

----------------------------------------------------------

OLB:

1125 grapho

AV-write 206, writing 1, describe 1, vr write 1; (Total of 209)

1) to write, with reference to the form of the letters

a) to delineate (or form) letters on a tablet, parchment, paper, or other material

2) to write, with reference to the contents of the writing

a) to express in written characters

b) to commit to writing (things not to be forgotten), write down, record

c) used of those things which stand written in the sacred books (of the OT)

d) to write to one, i.e. by writing (in a written epistle) to give information, directions

3) to fill with writing

4) to draw up in writing, compose

NAS:

1125. grapho; a prim. vb.; to write:—

NAS-read (1), sent this letter (1), write (37), writes (1), writing (14), written (117), wrote (20). (Total of 191)

STR:

1125. grapho; a primary verb; to "grave," especially to write; figuratively, to describe:— describe, write(-ing, -ten).

==================

The following is the first usage of this word graphe for scriptures:

Mt 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures <1124>, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Jesus was referencing Ps 118:22-23 and Is 28:16 (among others) from the OT. He called these “scriptures”.

Similar NT references to these are in Mk 12:10-11, Lk 20:17, Act 4:11, Ro 9:33, Eph 2:20, and 1Pe 2:4-8. So, (according to Jesus and others) writings in the OT are considered “scriptures”.

Now, Bob – about your “pattern”. (And by the way, for those who suppose we may be starting with some “premise” that there IS a pattern, and then looking for things to substantiate it – be advised! We suspect there may be a pattern, and are merely searching for indicators to see if one exists strongly enough to name it as such.)

Correct me if I am wrong, Bob. I believe your desire is to ascertain whether or not Paul’s reference to “scriptures” relates to that which was written after Pentecost – correct?

Concerning verses written by Paul containing these words (1124 & 1125), I find the vast majority of their usages refer to his quoting of OT records in reference to that which he was trying to communicate. Much of what he taught and shared seemed to be in this manner – showing that truths he desired for people to understand had their roots in OT scripture.

He wrote many personal letters. It seems he used his “scope” of the OT scriptures to properly judge and give his insight as to how to deal with situations that emerged among the people – because this just “made sense” to him. Isn’t that the way most of us communicate – using our knowledge, skills, logic, and experience to relate to “the truth”?

The Pauline epistles show how he dealt with the “problems of the day”, referencing visits to the brethren, personal confrontations at times, and letters to others at times (believers and unbelievers). These all seem to show this same manner of teaching, using wisdom from the OT, wit, culture of the times, and personal experience.

If one were to just do a superficial reading of these letters, it might not seem as though it were more “Godly inspired” than it was “just making natural sense of things”. But my take on this (and this is my personal thinking) is that Paul was inspired of God to share specific things from his “repertoire”, rather than to just blab about what made sense to him, as I am doing right now. (Or am I?)

But there seems to be an exception to this case when it comes to his letter to the Ephesians, for example. Much wisdom is in that epistle, yet I can find little reference to OT scripture in it, except perhaps “in principle”. This “grace he was given” is something uniquely his own, and certainly this “mental scripture” (if you please) was what fueled the rest of his ministry and the other things I have mentioned already.

Certainly God allowed him to be “privy” to something NEW, which we only have vague refences to here and there, except that through his writings it may be possible to obtain from God something similary “new and personal” for ourselves, just as he did.

Here are a couple of referecnes to his “revelation”:

2 Co 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven…

…4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter…

…7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Ga 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Paul definitely had received something unique. Maybe this “gospel” is his “scripture”. Perhaps more could be revealed if we expanded the search to include words related to “scripture” and “written” such as rhema and logos, etc.

Nuff for now…I’m tired! Ec 12:12…much study is a weariness of the flesh.

SPEC

:)

The bigger nonsense-which is why they backed off quietly on it no matter how many times vpw said it, was "God is Spirit, and GOD CAN ONLY SPEAK TO THAT WHICH HE IS."

Sometimes it was "God is Spirit, and GOD CAN ONLY GIVE THAT WHICH HE IS."

These were, and still are, nonsense. God gives spirit. God is Spirit. (For the sake of discussion, I'll agree.) God gave manna. God is NOT manna.

Follow me through this supposed "Great Principle."(Others have posted here about this before.)

The idea is that God gives you "spirit". God then communicates with that spirit- since He can't communicate with flesh and blood. Then your spirit communicates with your flesh and blood. Wait, what? HOW?

If GOD'S Spirit can't manage it-and we're talking GOD ALMIGHTY here - why should I think my own comparatively miniscule spirit can manage it? If MY spirit can communicate with flesh and blood, then so can God's, and the stated reason for me to have spirit is negated.(If I have been given spirit, communication is not the reason.)

=================

God can do whatever He wants whenever He wants.

If He wants to communicate with someone, He has lots of choices

as to how to accomplish it,and is NOT limited due to being Spirit.( Too much work trying to simplify things ends up trivializing a TRANSCENDENT God into a God we can define into a neat box.)...

A made-up explanation is given as to how God communicates with

non-believers who don't HAVE spirit. Supposedly, God has to

ambush them with spirit, giving them spirit they never asked for

nor wanted, in order to communicate with them....

================

I also noticed that people were completely oblivious to the

arbitrary nature of the supposed definition of "phenomena."

Whenever something happened that wasn't specifically promised,

twi feels compelled to give it a title-"phenomena." That's anything that happens that wasn't guaranteed by God.

Instead, they smugly categorize the unexpected as "phenomena" and are unaware that this does nothing to actually EXPLAIN what probably was inexplicable to begin with. They're convinced this actually addressed the subject.

the way international has found many ways to istill errors and

blind obedience in people who deserve a lot better than twi...

DAMN'D GOOD POST WORDWOLF!! I say again, "Good show!"

Hearing it the way you put it makes so much sense - and believe me, I am a "hard nut to crack" at times. But I'm with you now on this matter!

I loved the logic you used about how "our spirit" (which is a little bit of His) can do something His cannot! Ridiculous!

And to them "phenomenon" seemed to cover everything else they could not explain - sort of like the "catch all verse" used by relgions to "shut down" questions from their followers:

De 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God...

Yes, TWI certainly understood how to put God in a box. So many times I was told to "read my blue book" again for everything from "soup to nuts". Well, maybe they should take notice of it again themselves - especially the chapter on "Are You Limiting God?" !

Thanks again for a great post WordWolf! You "hit the nail on the head" with this one.

SPEC

:)

I think we're already way past that. Let's call it a draw. My t-shirt link had it to 5000 as well. Lest I find myself using Cray time.

OK - TRUCE! (I used 5k after having seen your "favorite T-shirt" link.)

Besides, in my heart I was seeing it as becoming rather childish. But it was fun! (And I thank the rest of you for your patience while I was getting "carried away".)

I see some interesting takes on the "harmonization of the gospels" here. And I agree with Penworks - my curosity of that area is purely "academic".

SPEC

:)

Pi to 5000 anyone?

3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164

062862089986280348253421170679821480865132823066470938446095505822317253

594081284811174502841027019385211055596446229489549303819644288109756659

334461284756482337867831652712019091456485669234603486104543266482133936

072602491412737245870066063155881748815209209628292540917153643678925903

600113305305488204665213841469519415116094330572703657595919530921861173

819326117931051185480744623799627495673518857527248912279381830119491298

336733624406566430860213949463952247371907021798609437027705392171762931

767523846748184676694051320005681271452635608277857713427577896091736371

787214684409012249534301465495853710507922796892589235420199561121290219

608640344181598136297747713099605187072113499999983729780499510597317328

160963185950244594553469083026425223082533446850352619311881710100031378

387528865875332083814206171776691473035982534904287554687311595628638823

537875937519577818577805321712268066130019278766111959092164201989380952

572010654858632788659361533818279682303019520353018529689957736225994138

912497217752834791315155748572424541506959508295331168617278558890750983

817546374649393192550604009277016711390098488240128583616035637076601047

101819429555961989467678374494482553797747268471040475346462080466842590

694912933136770289891521047521620569660240580381501935112533824300355876

402474964732639141992726042699227967823547816360093417216412199245863150

302861829745557067498385054945885869269956909272107975093029553211653449

872027559602364806654991198818347977535663698074265425278625518184175746

728909777727938000816470600161452491921732172147723501414419735685481613

611573525521334757418494684385233239073941433345477624168625189835694855

620992192221842725502542568876717904946016534668049886272327917860857843

838279679766814541009538837863609506800642251252051173929848960841284886

269456042419652850222106611863067442786220391949450471237137869609563643

719172874677646575739624138908658326459958133904780275900994657640789512

694683983525957098258226205224894077267194782684826014769909026401363944

374553050682034962524517493996514314298091906592509372216964615157098583

874105978859597729754989301617539284681382686838689427741559918559252459

539594310499725246808459872736446958486538367362226260991246080512438843

904512441365497627807977156914359977001296160894416948685558484063534220

722258284886481584560285060168427394522674676788952521385225499546667278

239864565961163548862305774564980355936345681743241125150760694794510965

960940252288797108931456691368672287489405601015033086179286809208747609

178249385890097149096759852613655497818931297848216829989487226588048575

640142704775551323796414515237462343645428584447952658678210511413547357

395231134271661021359695362314429524849371871101457654035902799344037420

073105785390621983874478084784896833214457138687519435064302184531910484

810053706146806749192781911979399520614196634287544406437451237181921799

983910159195618146751426912397489409071864942319615679452080951465502252

316038819301420937621378559566389377870830390697920773467221825625996615

014215030680384477345492026054146659252014974428507325186660021324340881

907104863317346496514539057962685610055081066587969981635747363840525714

591028970641401109712062804390397595156771577004203378699360072305587631

763594218731251471205329281918261861258673215791984148488291644706095752

706957220917567116722910981690915280173506712748583222871835209353965725

121083579151369882091444210067510334671103141267111369908658516398315019

701651511685171437657618351556508849099898599823873455283316355076479185

358932261854896321329330898570642046752590709154814165498594616371802709

819943099244889575712828905923233260972997120844335732654893823911932597

463667305836041428138830320382490375898524374417029132765618093773444030

707469211201913020330380197621101100449293215160842444859637669838952286

847831235526582131449576857262433441893039686426243410773226978028073189

154411010446823252716201052652272111660396665573092547110557853763466820

653109896526918620564769312570586356620185581007293606598764861179104533

488503461136576867532494416680396265797877185560845529654126654085306143

444318586769751456614068007002378776591344017127494704205622305389945613

140711270004078547332699390814546646458807972708266830634328587856983052

358089330657574067954571637752542021149557615814002501262285941302164715

509792592309907965473761255176567513575178296664547791745011299614890304

639947132962107340437518957359614589019389713111790429782856475032031986

915140287080859904801094121472213179476477726224142548545403321571853061

422881375850430633217518297986622371721591607716692547487389866549494501

146540628433663937900397692656721463853067360965712091807638327166416274

888800786925602902284721040317211860820419000422966171196377921337575114

959501566049631862947265473642523081770367515906735023507283540567040386

743513622224771589150495309844489333096340878076932599397805419341447377

4418426312986080998886874132604721

Hey Chockfull - I think I might have missed one or two digits. Care to count them for me?

SPEC

:)

PS: I have it to 1.25 million, but I won't bore you all with that - besides, it's 378 pages!

To come off as less complex and intellectual, you might want to quote PI out to a little less precision than 50. Just sayin'

Chockful:

Or - if one prefers to come off as more complex and highly intellectual, he might even want to quote PI out to 1000 places! Just sayin'...

3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406

286208998628034825342117067982148086513282306647093844609550582231725359

408128481117450284102701938521105559644622948954930381964428810975665933

446128475648233786783165271201909145648566923460348610454326648213393607

260249141273724587006606315588174881520920962829254091715364367892590360

011330530548820466521384146951941511609433057270365759591953092186117381

932611793105118548074462379962749567351885752724891227938183011949129833

673362440656643086021394946395224737190702179860943702770539217176293176

752384674818467669405132000568127145263560827785771342757789609173637178

721468440901224953430146549585371050792279689258923542019956112129021960

864034418159813629774771309960518707211349999998372978049951059731732816

096318595024459455346908302642522308253344685035261931188171010003137838

752886587533208381420617177669147303598253490428755468731159562863882353

7875937519577818577805321712268066130019278766111959092164201989

SPEC

:)

PS: Sorry, Bolshevic. (I did fix it, but you read the original post too quickly.)

oops...gonna try this again!

SPEC

:)