spectrum49

Over the past weeks I have seen some folks, in & out of TWI, say that our information here on GS is out of date and does not apply to the current TWI. Heck, we have heard for years that TWI has become kinder and gentler, all the "bad leaders" are gone and the "wrong doctrine" changed.

I have experience in this area. I was with TWI from 1975-2008. This "kinder & gentler" thing is only "good for business"...

They remembered how their numbers had flourished in the 70's & early 80's, when The Way acted more out of "grace" toward people.

And they saw what had happened over the years when LCM got the "mantle". At first he encouraged the way to have "more quality believers" and certain things were rather frowned upon by leadership like witnessing to homeless people or in bars, etc. (And besides that, those sort didn't really have much to offer in the way of ABS - a major concern to the BUSINESS PEOPLE of the way!)

As he progressed, LCM got so carried away by adding more and more to these initial "constraints" that he starting "yelling and demanding", truly LORDING OVER the flock.

Well, it's no secret how his "bashing" and "laying down the law" to people had chased many followers away. Even later on, things progressed into the "split", which triggered an immediate loss of MUCH manpower and money!

And at that time, LCM "demanded" obedience to those who were considered the "faithful remnant". He required each remaining follower to answer the question, "Whose side are you on?".

This (over time) along with his ever-increasing "new demands" caused so much devastation to the numbers of The Way it is NO WONDER that later on they decided to TONE IT DOWN!

They weren't really doing it to be nice. They had learned over the years that they "could catch more flies with honey than with vinegar"!

And as far as "revamping the class" is concerned: They saw how LCM's treatment of the scriptures wasn't working, so they eventually and gradually have been attempting to return to teaching PFAL very similar to what it was in the OLD DAYS in an attempt to see if it will work just like it did in the 70's and early 80's. (Perhaps they suppose the original PFAL worked like some sort of "magic".)

Why? Bottom line - numbers of people - more ABS. Remember - It's a business! Whatever makes "more capital" flow into their coffers is the defining principle from which everything else they really desire will be derived.

Shortly before I left, I had decided to buy a house (with a mortgage). A few years earlier, this would have been HARSHLY REPROVED, perhaps even to the point of being "marked and avoided".

This action was "tolerated", although I was to understand that I could not be a "leader" or join the Corps, or go Way Disciple. (It's funny, however - I was still allowed to play guitar and sing for Limb and Region meetings! Remember - to them that was still considered as "very encouraging" for newcomers in the crowd, who would return if they had a good time. Perhaps they would take classes and learn to GIVE MONEY to them.)

And check this out! Despite the fact they did not approve of me buying the house "from the bank", they were very much looking forward to using it for running classes and as an "alternate fellowship location" at times.

And why is this? It is a NICE LOOKING HOME! It carries with it the appearance of the sort of ABUNDANCE God showers on "faithful followers" such as myself! (???) And, of course, despite the fact I was not being "truly faithful", such plans for the use of our home were only "for show"!

And - not to boast - I bet that after we left, they sorely missed the almost $10K my wife and I gave to them each year. Perhaps that is part of the reason they continued to be so "nice" to us. We were GREAT GIVERS!

And I'll tell you what! That "chunk of change" sure comes in mighty handy these days - and it makes what we still provide in the community (which is a "mere pittance" compared to that) to be done VERY VERY CHEERFULLY!

"For God loveth a cheerful giver."

SPEC

:)

For those interested, here's a link to another topic that you might find relevant to this discussion.

Research and premesis

Cheers!

Thanks for that LINK, Penworks! I read all the posts in it (from 2008). Many good points are made pertinent to this TOPIC you started, and it contains many "first hand accounts" by those who did "research" while at TWI.

SPEC

:)

How will we know the difference?

Maybe this is better, because it sort of relates more to the discussion, concerning the "fullness of this gift" in our future....

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

SPEC

:)

How will we know the difference?

By their fruits perhaps?

Oopsie!

That would create quite an "inerrancy problem" because of Revelation 22:18.

For I testify unto everyone that heareth the words of the prophesy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.

LOL - But MAN will not be adding - God will.

Where would the Mount of Transfiguration event fit the 9.

It doesn't fit into the nine:

Mt 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

It was not a manifestation. It was a VISION, similar to that which God showed prophets at times in the OT, and elsewhere.

Even in our times, there are those with a "gift ministry" of a prophet. And there is a big difference between a "gift" and a "manifestion".

In addition, this was a "phenomenon", because others were allowed to see it along with Jesus - and the purpose was to teach them something, which you will see from the context.

I think you answered your own question there spec... the "REST OF IT".. Well, Guess that means there is MORE!

Yes, and that, my friend, is the box you decide to put God's spirit and the many ways it can be manifest.

Enjoy your box! I take this as a SNIDE COMMENT - rather uncalled for.

You do have a valid point here; however - perhaps I should "qualify" my reasoning a bit more...

That which God has given his children to use these days is not limited in that which pertains to what we are to accomplish here during the time of this SECOND EARTH. It's purpose is that we be "fully equipped" - complete for THE TASK AT HAND.

In this context is what I meant by it's being "UNLIMITED". There is nothing we cannot accomplish with it toward the GOAL God has set for us during this time on earth.

However, in the future we shall have it IN FULL, that we may accomplish the NEW GOALS which will be set for us starting with the 3rd earth - New Jerusalem and beyond.

God has not explained much at all about what "that future" will be like. Surely what He had provided in written form for us in OUR TIME is NOT the end of the "whole story".

I suppose in the future God will reveal even more "scripture" which we will need in order to accomplish what He has planned for us - BEYOND what is written NOW - which does cover everything we need for the present.

This BOX (as you have called it) merely "defines" what we have to use NOW, that we may learn to use it properly. God's explanation of what our "holy spirit" is comprised of sets the "constraints" for us that we do not misunderstand or misuse it.

Everything in life needs definition so we may operate correctly - even our jobs, or games, or how to build things. The details of each of these may be considered as the BOX which shows how they are to be used - And God's details concerning the "manifestations of the gift of holy spirit" are no different.

1. SIT

2. interpret

3. prophecy

4. w of k

5. w of w

6. d of spurts

7. super Believing

8. gifts of healings (note the "s"s)

9. something else

10. spidey sense

11. the sixth sense

12. word of whatever

13. ESP

14. telekinetics

15. radar

16. deja vu

17. the rally cap

18. groundhogs day aka interpretation of shadows

19. gifts of unhealings (someone's got to believe for when someone else has stopped believing and believe to bring the sickness back.)

20. tax aversion

21. how mom knows your lying aka word of superknowledge

22. *the mystery manifestation not yet revealed*

23. the boldness to wear a devil spurt costume

24. the even greater boldness to be the guy in super-short-shorts chase the spurts around

24 so far

This is quite a list! I can see by the order you have listed the first 8, you still seem to acknowledge their "order" as proposed and taught by TWI. (And BTW, you "just forgot" to mention "the working of miracles".)

The rest of the list made me laugh - especially some of the things you mentioned which are COUNTERFEITS. (like ESP and 6th sense)

But I know you only meant to be sarcastic and facetious - and perhaps not in a truly demeaning context - that is why I laughed at it.

The misunderstanding of the greatest thing God has provided His kids with is truly LAUGHABLE! For those who mock and scoff at God's instruction, consider: Their "time" is coming, for someday they will answer for all these things in court at the Throne of God:

Ps 59:7 Behold, they belch out with their mouth: swords are in their lips: for who, say they, doth hear?

8 But thou, O LORD, shalt laugh at them; thou shalt have all the heathen in derision.

9 Because of his strength will I wait upon thee: for God is my defence.

SPEC

:)

dear spec or spectrum etc i was just hugging you for your story because it touched my heart

Thanks EX!

I was just reading it again and had to laugh at myself! I said I was about 16 when my younger brother joined the army. He is 3 years younger, so does that mean he joined at the age of 13? :unsure:

Oh well - I could always call and ask him - then I would know how old I "really was" at the time.

But all in all, I know it was the "heart" contained in the story which "touched you".

Thanks again for the sentiment!

SPEC

:)

We do not control His spirit any more than you can control God himself. It is HIS! It will not do anything outside of HIS will. It will function only according to how HE desires it to. And yet, His spirit has the power to do accomplish more things than one could ever think up, and to put it in this box of 9 manifestations is limiting at best .

Because these 9 manifestations seem to incorporate everything already, I wonder why you say that they are like a box (with a limited scope)...

Does not WORD OF WISDOM entail the best way to apply anything?

Does not WORD OF KNOWLEDGE include everything that can be known?

Does not FAITH cover any action one might take?

Does not GIFTS OF HEALING include mending any situation or remedy any sickness?

Does not WORKING OF MIRACLES include anything which can happen which goes beyond the natural means?

Does not PROPHESY include all events which ARE, WERE, or WILL BE?

Does not DISCERNING OF SPIRITS cover all which is going on "behind the scenes" in the spiritual realm?

Is there any limit as to the scope of one's conversation with God when one SPEAKS IN TONGUES?

I really don't see how you consider these to be LIMITED just the way they are. The true dimensions of this "box of yours" are as LIMITLESS as the universe.

And just because these are described by "words" does not mean they are (in reality) limited to the definitions of those words. But God had to describe this "immeasurable gift" somehow in words ("finite terms") which we humans can relate to.

And just think - we are told that what we do have is just a "token", so the REST OF IT (when we get it) will make even what seems without measure at the present to pale in insignificance!

Maybe simpler put - Would you say somebody is putting God "in a box" if he were to merely quote a verse which says "God is light"? You might then ask him, "Well, isn't God a whole lot more than just LIGHT? Calling God only "light" is limiting at best."

What is light? Is it merely a word alone, or a concept which leads to an eternal array of everything spiritual and true?

And, by the way it is called THE manifestation:

1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

There can be no more "evidence" of this gift than what is in the list which follows - for in it is comprised ALL which can be manifested of the gift - for it is called THE MANIFESTATION.

TrustAndObey: You said, "And yet, His spirit has the power to do accomplish more things than one could ever think up, and to put it in this box of 9 manifestations is limiting at best."

You speak as if there is more to it than what God has described. Everything which the gift of holy spirit can "accomplish" is covered by one or more, or a combination of these 9.

SPEC

:)

And now, a post concerning the manifestations. Please remember though, this is "my take" on them...

A word to begin with: As Gen-2 has indicated so many times, the physical and spiritual realms are closely related, as can be seen in nature, science and physics, etc.

I believe (and will show) that the list of manifestations in 1Co 12:8-10 is in this order for a special (and very logical) reason:

1. word of wisdom

2. word of knowledge

3. faith

4. gifts of healing

5. working of miracles

6. prophecy

7. discerning of spirits

“Word of Wisdom” (spiritual) is not unlike “wisdom” (in the natural sense). The same is true concerning “Word of Knowledge” and "knowledge itself". Their definitions may be found in many places in the Bible. For instance:

Pr 8:33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.

Basically, being wise is to “obey instruction”, or simply “to do what God has said is right” - that which you presently understand. God will not hold you accountable for what you have yet to learn.

And there is a logical reason “wisdom” is listed first:

Pr 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

Pr 8:20 [in the context, wisdom "says":] I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

A good example of wisdom is how all was fine with Adam until he transgressed. Simply, he disobeyed by doing the only thing God had said not to do. According to Prov 8:33 (above), he acted "foolishly instead of wisely".

Word of Knowledge is bacially “detailed information”, just like knowledge we receive by reading books or studying in school, etc. By this manifestation, God can reveal particular details about something we need to be aware of..

And there is is a reason it is listed second:

Note: For those who were in TWI, we always heard the phrase “Word of Knowledge, Word of Wisdom….” Then they went on to explain that wisdom is in the “second place” by saying “wisdom is applied knowledge”. In a logical sense this is true, but for our purposes here, it is OUT OF ORDER. You never see their “phrase” in the Bible! When both are mentioned, wisdom is always first and knowledge is after. Here are 3, and there are many more:

Col 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Ec 2:26 For God giveth to a man that is good in his sight wisdom, and knowledge…

2Ch 1:12 Wisdom and knowledge is granted unto thee…

A good example of this is the account of Noah. He received some very detailed information about what would happen to the world (the flood), and specifically what to do in building the ark. (what kind of wood to use, exact dimensions, how to waterproof it [with "pitch"], what to put into it, etc.) In all, there are 14 entire verses of information!

And why did he get this? Simple! He was the ONLY ONE continuing to OBEY what was right (wisdom is first), while the rest of the world was “screwing up”:

Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. (except for Noah: Ge 6:8 "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD".)

When we are obedient, (wisdom) we keep ourselves in the position so as to be able to receive this sort of information (knowledge) from God when we need it - just like Noah did. It's that simple!

Faith (believing) is third. It is basically “taking action” on what we know:

Heb 11:8 By [the manifestation of] faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Abraham did not have any details, except TO LEAVE - and we just read his departing was considered as faith. (As he went, he learned the details.)

So far, in short –

1. We do what we know is right. (wisdom)

2. We therefore get details (knowledge) when we need them.

3. And then we act. (believing, or faith)

This is logical, and in order. Let me dispense with all the verbage and “cut to the chase”:

The result of this “algorithm” is Healing – 4th. God has set up things so they take course naturally when applied, the way He designed things to work normally in life, or even spiritually. We follow the "rules" and get the "results".

However, He can go beyond the “natural” with “supernatural” – Hence, Miracles – 5th.

A broken bone may heal in time (six weeks or so), but God has a way to “speed up the natural process”, so to speak, so it will mend immediately. This is a “miracle”.

Prophecy is 6th. Basically, you can “predict your future”, by simply repeating what you did which worked before, because it will work like that “every time”. It's sort of like using "mass production", once the "prototype" is established.

“Short summary” thus far (1-6): Do right. Get details. Act. Get results – even supernatual results if needed. It will work tomorrow just as it did today.

The 7th one is Discerning of Spirits. Once you have “the ball rolling” (as we have seen), the “last hurdle” is overcoming "the enemy" who will be “pulling out all the stops” to attempt to thwart your efforts – to make you quit. But as you become wise to “his bag of tricks”, you just “keep on keeping on”. When we sucessfully "resist him" - he MUST FLEE - he has no choice, for that is God's law!

Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

I know this “analogy” seems oversimplified (and lacks proper documentation), but the truth is: To see all the details about how these work would take the Whole Bible into consideration – and every example of those who experienced these manifestations.

However, I am thankful one does not have to understand EVERY DETAIL just to "begin learning" how these work - recognizing and applying them "as they happen".

We just do what we know thus far - we start by acting wisely. Details do help though – gaining experience is accomplished by an "ever-learning process", so we are continually becoming even more proficient at doing "what is right".

I certainly hope this post will help some people. It seems to work very well for my wife & I, and I trust God would have us stop doing it this way if there was truly something wrong with it. Remember though, it is only "my logical method".

Further details are in a book I am publishing this year. (My first! Please wish me success.)

Love & Hope,

SPEC

:)

... 6. Acts: Peter at pentecost says "repent - the Kingdom is at hand." The Apostles preaching was to Israel. Peter quotes Joel - a prophecy to Israel.

Excuse me for “butting in” Sunesis, but if you look more carefully in Acts, Peter does say “repent”, but he DOES NOT use the phrase “the Kingdom is at hand”.

This phrase (actually, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”) is found UNIQUELY in the Gospels (Matt – John), and does not pertain to our Administration of Grace:

---------------

Mt 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,

2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.…

---------------

Four verses later, we see that John baptized those (who were willing to repent) in the river Jordan:

---------------

…6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

---------------

The following shows that Jesus first began to use that same phrase himself after John was cast into prison – and soon afterwards was beheaded. Jesus merely “picked up where John left off”. (According to OT prophesy, John came to “prepare the way for Jesus”.):

---------------

Mt 4:12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;

13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:

14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,

15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;

16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

---------------

It is also interesting to note that Jesus did this “beyond Jordan”. This is (of course) true in the geographical sense, but for those who are “listening spiritually” it is also an indication that he went "beyond water baptism”, (Jesus, having been baptized of John, accomplished this for us that we need not repeat it, for it is already “embodied” in what we have inherently within our “spiritual nature”, upon being born again)

Also, technically speaking, we have no King. (As you had also indicated in so many words, “the Kingdom is yet future”.) It was interrupted in the Gospel period when Jesus was crucified, and the sign "mocking him" was posted above his head, "THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS".

And we are not Jews – we have no King. What we have NOW is the "body of Christ", made up of Jews AND Gentiles. It is neither one in particular, for we are considered as “equal” in the body. Later (in Revelation), Jesus will return to set up his Kingdom.

Near the end, he returns as "King of Kings and Lord of Lords" ready to battle. And at the very end, God Himself (as KING OVERALL) judges from His throne.

Therefore, the Kingdom is NOT “at hand” during our time.

SPEC

:)

Job 31:40 Let thistles grow instead of wheat, and cockle instead of barley. The words of Job are ended....

And so are mine! - Opting out of this TOPIC.

SPEC

...As I mentioned above, it's not enough to just rant about "how bad it was" (I was there...it was bad), but rather to distinguish where the badness was allowed into your life and resolve to fix it; resolve to not make the mistake again and move on (in my case) with God. If not the God as portrayed by TWI (I hope not...) then certainly the God portrayed in the Scriptures. If you still have a hunger for the stuff there is a lot out there.

Sorry for appearing to "rant". I was just laughing at myself a bit. The truth is, in my heart I will always be thankful to The (early) Way for having introduced me to a "few keys" on how the Bible interprets itself.

True enough, if I had searched a bit more, perhaps I could have found those same keys here and there, but it was nice to have them "all together in one package" so to speak.

I gleaned what I could from them over the years, and moved on when I realized they had no interest in things I had found while applying those KEYS - and I have MOVED ON, as you put it.

And yes, SIR! I do (and shall always have) a hunger for "the truth". I learn from many here at GS, including you!

You said "there is a lot out there". Well (and excuse me for "plugging" my own work) I plan to be adding to "the pile" soon with my first book. I believe I shall call it, "Genesis One: God's Table of Contents".

I'm not in it for the pleasure of "Book Signings" and "Royalties" promised by my publisher. Those things would be nice, (and I sure wouldn't refuse them!) but my heart is to share some "exciting things" I have found to as many as will want to see them.

FYI, Advanced copies will probably be available in August, and the "official release" around November.

(end of commercial - LOL)

SPEC

:)

PS: Penworks - Do I owe you anything for "advertising" on "your space" here? It is your topic.

Thanks for the detailed additional information Penworks!

I should have suspected there was never any "real effort" concerning "Biblical research" by TWI all along!

When I first visited The Way Internationl HQ for "Sunday Night Services" in 1975, we met in the old "BRC" (Biblical Research Center), long since replaced by the "Auditorium" just down the road.

Now I get it! "BRC" was just the "name" they used to make it sound exciting to people like myself who thrilled at the notion of "being in on the cutting edge of Biblical technology" in our day and time.

I did say (in an earlier post) they had "sucked me in". Well, that's exactly how they did it!

PT Barnum was right - "There is a sucker born every minute."

SPEC

:)

...Bemoaning the fact that TWI and it’s research arm did not exist in a manner to which you now ascribe...

...The splinter groups that purport to “carry on” this work in a manner that takes only the “good things” of VP and perfects them need scrutiny too (as those here can well imagine). None of them, as some one astutely pointed out, have research groups within them. It’s quite telling, IMHO...

...There is a dearth of Biblical research around it is true...

How appropriate your comments are to this discussion, roberterasmus!

I have said this before - and I think it bears repeating....

I did a little study once concerning TWI's liquidation of assets at times to generate ready capital by which to continue their ever-waning existence since the split some years ago.

I was not really suprised to discover that among the first things to go were The Way College of Emporia Kansas and its "sister location", The Way College of Biblical Research - Indiana Campus.

Isn't it interesting how they truly value their "research arm", as you had put it?

And (IMHO) I think it is utterly ludicrous for a "Biblical Research and Teaching" ministry to have No Research Department!

To me, that is like a cafeteria which has NO FOOD!

SPEC

:)

thank you all for such a great discussion

(((((( SPEC )))))) and everyone else, really

excathedra:

Is there some reason for having "singled me out" (if indeed "SPEC" is referring to me)?

Was there something "in particular" I said which you had in mind?

Just Curious...

SPEC

:)

PS: As an "afterthought", and having read your post again, is this perhaps in reference to my "story" of learning to trust God BEFORE TWI and then (having left them) just continuing on "my merry way" as from my youth?

I am fast beginning to understand just why you had decided to call this topic the "CULT" of zero!

Just how many "followers" have you, "Dr"?

Forgive me for saying this - nothing against you personally Dr. Wearword - I am sure you have some wonderful traits, as do we all.

But to be perfectly honest, I am becoming more and more frustrated to try and learn anything of value from this topic.

With your post about the "dream" or "vision" (or whatever the heck that really was) it has taken a turn far away from anything even resembling that which may be appropriate for the DOCTRINAL FORUM.

So, you say you have seen this from "both sides now"? Perhaps there is a third alternative you have yet to "imagine" - IMHO this alternative could be to simply "move" this topic into another forum - perhaps the one called "Just Plain Silly"!

No offense meant...and remember - this is merely MY OPINION.

SPEC

:(

...And for your information I never even read your long post. I simply saw a thread on this subject. I have done a lot of research on it and so I posted it. And your comments are unnecessary because at least 5 other people have already analyzed my article when I orginally wrote it. It has been already edited a number of times. And yes 1 Corinthians 12:11 was part of that editing.

However, I did read your latest post and I am hearing now an attitude that I am your competition on this subject. Why is that Spectrum? If you consider yourself a teacher why would you feel threatened by another teacher? Doesn't the bible say teachers (plural) and not teachers (singular)?

Sorry Mark. I acted a bit hastily. I had merely "assumed" you had originally read my post.

No. I do not consider that we are in a competition. Everyone here at Greasespot has the right to read and form their own opinions of what others say.

Your recent post contained a lot in interesting information, I might say. Let me say this:

There may yet be some merit to the idea that "God is in control of who gets what", so to speak. I still believe man has the privilege of keeping himself in the position so as to be able to utilize the "full package" of the nine manifestations of the gift of holy spirit.

However, as it says: "But all these worketh [are energized by] that one and the selfsame Spirit"...

...dividing [distributing] to "every man his own as he [the man] will".

The question that remains is this: If it is up to God to energize the manifestations (or provide the "power" to them to make them work), then man (by his adherence to the Truth) is still not under "control", so to speak, to make these work on his own accord.

My take is truly that these are readily available to anyone (born again) who needs any - AND - who (by his faithfulness to God's precepts he understands thus far in life) keeps himself in the proper position so as to be JUSTIFIED in God's sight so as to have "His permission".

I believe God will energize any (or all) of these as needed, as long as the "receiver" is doing "his part".

This way, we can still both agree. God energizes (according to His will) and man (who inherently has all these to start with) believes to manifest them (according to his will).

That's the best I can do at this point. But I have one example:

Noah was the only one on the planet who had continued to be faithful to God's admonitions. And it was only he who received some very detailed information about precisely how to save himself and his family from the flood to come. What he received from God could only have been (by definition) "Word of Knowledge".

The truth is: Would God have been JUST if he had decided to energize this manifestation and give Noah the answers if he had been "screwing up" like all the rest? I doubt that seriously.

And again even today, would God be JUSTIFIED in allowing "screw-ups" (so to speak) to make use of such WONDERFUL POWER?

But Jesus Christ had no problem in manifesting this power at ANY TIME it was needed! Why is that? We have "Christ in us", and we are told we can do the same works as he did on earth - and even greater works! How is that to be?

I think nothing has changed about God's allowance for these spiritual evidences to be manifested by His people ever since Adam! He had designed the entire LAWS of the universe from the beginning - and whoever adheres to His instruction is "more than welcome" to share this POWER with Him.

SPEC :)

I tend to think they were both "real" too. If the tree of life was not real, I don't think God would have had two Cheribum guarding it up until the flood. Just as Satan chose to rebel, God had to give his Adam a choice. Without free will, man is nothing but a robot and God is unjust. Without free will, then God is truly unfair and unjust.

I think if Adam had told Satan to "get thee behind me" as the Second Adam, Jesus, did (note - was Jesus set up to fail? Thank God he didn't), Adam would have had the right to eat of the tree of life, he would have been ruler of the earth, God's regent on earth so to speak, and Christ would never have had to come redeem man - there would have been no redemption necessary. Every thing would be very different today.

As an aside, note the Cheribum's four faces: Man, lion (wild beast), ox (tame beast), bird - i.e., creation. When people came to worship God with burnt offerings outside of Eden, they saw the Cheribum guarding the Tree of Life. I have often wondered if the ancient gods man worshipped were not a corruption of the original Cheribum that Noah and his family saw and passed the info down to mankind who worshipped the "creature" rather than the Creator. Interesting.

-------------------

IMHO: Right on Sunesis! "Your take" on Cheribum is interesting also.

I have often wondered - (since after the flood had receeded and vegetation had resumed its normal growth) - whatever became of the two trees in question? ("life" & "knowledge")

-------------------

Ah, what language DID you read it in that says that "the tree of knowledge of good

and evil {is) right next to the tree of life"?

-------------------

KJV:

Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Both of these trees were in close proximity: "The midst of the garden".

-------------------

The entire situation, whether literal or allegorical, was one where free will was

THE BEGINNING of the situation. If Man had NO choice and couldn't sin,

Man would be denied the free will CHOICE to sin.

Sounds like you think the only sensible thing for a smart God to do would be to

make sinning impossible or nearly so, and block out Man's capacity to CHOOSE,

think and act for himself, and live with the consequences of his decisions and

actions.

I'm rather thankful for free will, myself. Granted, at the moment, there's a

lot of problems that would be bypassed if free will wasn't an option,

but we're here, and so is free will, and I prefer that to the most

comfortable, idyllic PRISON God could construct.

-----------------------

I totally agree with your last 3 paragraphs!

-----------------------

...I suppose that would depend on a) whether I was hungry, b) had belly fat and c) needed hair. At any rate, who would I blame for my choice except myself?

And what's the point, anyway?

---------------------

Your response here (to WordWolf) made me laugh! I heard that in the Great Depression people were actually chewing on shoe leather!

And (as an "aside") I have heard that people all over the planet have been eating what they term "staples"! I have some of those here in my office, but I would never consider making a steady diet of them!

---------------------

No problem, Spec. Good luck on your book.

Do you have a working title? Publisher?

----------------------

Thanks for the encouragement - to me it's a "roller coaster ride", for damn sure!

I believe I will entitle it, "Genesis One: God's Table of Contents".

My publisher is Tate Publishing. (No comments from the "peanut gallery", please!)

----------------------

I'm aware there's "young earth Creationists" out there, but I think they reflect a misunderstanding of both science AND Scripture, and poor scholarship towards both...

...I don't think that evidence exists purely to exist, and that we're designed to at least ATTEMPT to be logical, and were given a logical universe and a logical planet to work with. (I begin with those presumptions...)

------------------------

I believe you have made some good points here WordWolf!

------------------------

Because when I read it [the Bible] literally, I have difficulty. Not the least of which is that the order of creation according to Genesis 1 is plants, then animals, then man. But Genesis 2 says it was man, then plants, then animals.

All I'm trying to do is get the story in my head.

-----------------------

My book contains a logical response to this "dilemma". You might like it.

-----------------------

I have had the same questions SS. The "What did God expect?" questions.

Maybe, God expected them to be thankful for His ample provision and to obey Him . . . their creator God. Seems plausible He could expect faith in His word and the expression of His goodness. Wouldn't you?

What did they know? They knew God provided them dominion and bounty. They knew He said eat freely of any of the trees . . . whatever you want. . . but, this one tree you will not eat of because if you do. . . you will SURELY die. They knew His instruction. They knew His generosity. They knew His fellowship and kindness. They knew their purpose.

It was Satan who tempted, not God. It was Satan who was crafty and sewed the seed of doubt in what Eve knew about God. Her perception became an exaggerated one of God's severity in the prohibition of one thing. It went from freely eat any. . . to . . . Yeah we can eat. It went from this one tree you cannot eat from. . . to . . .Yeah, we can't even touch it lest we die. God didn't say lest you die. . . He said, you will surely die, and He never said they could not touch it. She lost sight of God's goodness and His judgment.

What I find interesting is no one repented. They hid. Job speaks of Adam's transgression. . . How he responded. .. Have I covered my transgressions like Adam, By hiding my iniquity in my bosom. . . . yet, God still provided them a covering and He has generously provided, at great cost, a better way.

-------------------------

Very well-thought-out geisha779! Makes a lot of sense to me.

-------------------------

Well, folks - I am glad to have finally answered all the recent posts - and again...NO THANKS TO WORDWOLF for his "rude interruption". (Just kidding!)

Actually I had another "private message interruption", but I had gotten got smart! I started a Word Document and constantly cut and pasted every new revision into it as I was was making this post. That worked just fine! I also went into my "settings" and "opted out" of the option to "notify me immediately online for any private messages". (I will just watch my e-mail - at my own damn convenience!)

I'm learning!

SPEC

:)

I hope this makes you all laugh! (And I hope WordWolf doesn't mind.)

He sent me a link to a site to possibly prevent me from "taking credit from others" concerning my "science-related" discovery in the Bible. Below is my response:

--------------------------

"Thanks, but NO THANKS, WordWolf! (just kidding!)

I had just spent almost an hour responding (with "multiquote") to posts 10-13 in "tree of knowledge" topic when your private message automatically popped up.

I was anxious to see it, so I clicked on it. (more about that later)

After I was done perusing "your link", I returned to give a final look at my post and click to submit it - and IT WAS TOTALLY GONE!

Now I have to start ALL OVER - thanks to YOU! (gotta blame somebody, huh? - and better you than me! - LOL)

Actually, I learned something here - and I damned sure won't be making that mistake again!

Anyway, a quick (but rather thorough) search on that site showed nothing even close to what I "have hidden".

But thanks for the possible "alert". I don't truly want to take other people's credit, as did many at TWI.

Now - back to "the grind" - NO THANKS AGAIN TO YOU, SIR! (Har! Har!)

SPEC"

----------------------

Yes, folks - back to "the grind"...and (in addition to reconstructing my post about items 10-13), I now see it has gone even further - the last I saw was post #18!

SPEC

PS: This is a classic example of the first of my two "original quotes"! (see just below) The laugh is on me!

I "sidestepped" your questions (actually I ignored them) because I honestly thought they were rhetorical. Either way, I thought they were irrelevant and, truth be told, somewhat patronizing.

Well, God knows I've done my share of mocking over the years. But even so, I wasn't mocking...

No matter what language you translate it from, or what language you read it in, God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil right next to the tree of life. He didn't put it in another land (in Nod, east of Eden, for instance) or five miles way, or down the road, or up the river, or on top of a mountain. He put it right there in the middle of the Garden of Eden where A & E were bound to see it. And the tree had some very interesting things growing on it. And then there was a serpent (where did he come from, anyway?).

So, if I wanted to appreciate the story of creation as an allegory -- which I might be persuaded to do -- I might be persuaded to believe that God actually gave early man a choice: "eternal paradise" in Eden, or free will. Free will is the more desirable (to me, anyway), but with it comes the hard fruit of the tree knowledge of good and evil: a moral sense, knowing right from wrong.

[Come to think of it, why was the tree of knowledge of good and evil necessary in the first place? Why did God put it there, if not to let man choose free will on his own?]

Anyway, I look forward to reading your book. Will it discuss the Nephilim and how they got on earth?

Please excuse my former "tone of voice". I "went off" rather quickly instead of asking a couple more questions first. MY BAD!

I can see why my writing appeared rhetorical. Sorry for calling you a "mocker". (And thank you for the nice post on another thread recently!)

Sounds to me you give some merit to my evaluation of the "tree in question" here. (based upon that which I marked in red in your quote)

In any event, why God put that tree precisely where he did and why it was there in the first place, and why allow the "serpent" to be in the already tempting situation - who knows?

Nevertheless, things today are the way they are, and God certainly was aware of all this even from the very beginning. And people need to "deal with it" the best they can.

So, the best I can offer is that God's heart was to prepare a way out, "providing believers an edge in life over the rest".

Curiously enough (and there is neither room here, nor desire at the present time to expound in detail) it seems that my "23-year project" - my book - boils down to the fact that perhaps the Bible could have been entitled, "How to walk by the spirit in 7 easy lessons". Nuff for now. Glad you are looking forward to reading it. (August for advanced copies; November for official release)

I have not addressed the subject of Nephilim in my book. In fact, I show very little about "ancient Earth history or evolution". However, I believe sufficient groundwork may have been laid to perhaps explore those in more detail in a "sequel" later on. BUT OH MY GOD - what amount of time and thought and research will that take?!

It's rather ironic that my entire "project" all started as a rather "innocent-looking" word-study on "abundance" (Gk: perissos), and now there seems to be no end to it! I feel like I have somehow opened up the proverbial "Pandora's Box"!

Some have said, "Be careful what you ask for - you might just get it!" My next word-study shall be on "small", or "tiny"!

And to you, WordWolf, your post made lots of sense! You penned, "If you're interested, there's actually a lot of smart science all over the Bible."

My book will reveal (among other things) a breathtaking example of this which (I hope) will stun the world, for it is a "rather new concept" - but very logical - which has been "hidden in plain sight" in the Bible for thousands of years now. Why I seem to have it first is somewhat of a "mystery".

Please forgive the ambiguity - I don't mean to "dangle a carrot" in front of people. I just don't want to "let the cat out of the bag just yet".

SPEC

:)

PS: I see that posts 10-13 had been written as I was responding to 8 & 9. I am reading those now.

Oh, I did that very early in my involvement. It got me into plenty of hot water. Before I "got in the word", my basic train of thought was that God talks to you in a non-verbal fashion. Talks to you in ways that are tailored to your personal makeup.

Thanks waysider! You just reminded me of "before I got in the word". Perhaps this is a tangent to the topic, but what the heck?

As a young child I remember looking at the stars at night and somehow realized space must go forever. That is when I decided there must be "something in control". I didn't even care to call it "GOD". (or "creative universalism", either! LOL) But I do now, 'cause you gotta call it SOMETHING - so what the heck - Call it GOD.

I used to try and speak with this "entity", but without result. I never actually heard any audible response.

My parents used to send me off on a bus to church. (They didn't attend themselves, so it was a nice way to get rid of me for a bit!) I can't remember anything they taught. Maybe I got born again - I just don't know. I was much too young.

But I'll tell you what! When I had a NEED, this God came through! I didn't "bug him" often, thinking he was busy enough with everybody else on the planet, so I only asked for stuff in an emergency situation.

Once, when I was about 16 my younger brother had gotten so far into drugs that the people he was hanging with had guns - and I think they may have been connected with organized crime. I was scared for my brother, who lived with mother 200 miles away. I lived with dad. (They had divorced when I was 5.)

I went outside and looked up at the stars and simply asked for help for my brother.

Only 3 days later did we get a call from him. It seems that he was at a party, and friends of friends were there. He said he was talking to this new guy. (Maybe it was an angel, I don't know for sure.) Anyway, he said the way this guy was talking about the Army sounded so appealing that he had actually gone and signed up. HMMM - I thought!

I went outside, looked up and thanked this "God".

He eventually became a Sgt Major and retired after 30 years with a nice pension! (He should give me some of that - LOL!)

When I was 19, my mother had divorced my step-father and (having no place to live) decided to voluntarily commit herself to the State Mental Instuitution as a "ward of the state". Dumb move, huh?

She wasn't crazy, but every time I visited her she got worse and worse. They had filled her with so many drugs - thorazine, stellazine, elerill, melerill - that she was slowly losing her mind.

When enough was enough - I think I was about 21, she had gotten so bad that sometimes she could hardly even remember who I was!

So I went "to the stars" again. And again - 3 days later she called and said she had decided to check herself out. I am glad she had originally done this voluntarily so she always had the option to leave! I thanked God again.

She was fine in a month or so - all back to normal! She had found a place to stay, and community work to do to suppliment her social-security.

I had learned to trust this God because He always came through so quickly! (There were other occasions I won't go into.)

But it seemed that I was always asking for stuff for OTHERS. I thought it greedy to ask for stuff for myself.

At 22, I had joined the Air Force. I was transferred a few times, and my mother had moved. We had gotten lost from each other. I was coming up on Christmas leave and wanted to see her so badly! So I prayed again outside one night, but I was crying and was somehow not confident, as when I asked for stuff for everybody else. The next day I went to the base chaplain - he was enouraging.

Again - 3 days later, I got a letter from her she had written some time ago. It had about 7 or 8 postmarks on it. It was so messed up - stuff crossed off and new stuff replaced EVERYWHERE. You could barely ready my name on it any more!

But somehow, it had gotten to me in time. Less than a week later I was on leave at her NEW PLACE!

Not too long after that in 1975 TWI sucked me in. I can't say they ever improved upon how I prayed and got answers. I learned a bit about research - and that was enough to get me the HECK OUT in 2008. I had learned some things on my own that they were not interested in - so I left!

I still ask for things and I still get them. And it's better now, for I have learned God is never too busy for anyone or anything. I ask for stuff "big" and "small" - why not?

SPEC

:)

http://www.christianherald.info/1-corinthians-12-page-1.html

I have written a 12 page commentary on 1 Corinthians chapter 12. Above is a link to it. This was written a few years ago and I have already had other people help with the editing of it. I spent a lot of time studying, editing and writing this so if someone reads it they can learn a lot in a relatively short period of time.

DARN IT ALL MARK!

I read your 12-page commentary. For the most part, it was very well done!

However, I am astounded that you entirely missed the point that it is THE BELIEVER who "wills" to operate these! I quote from your article:

Finally, there is only one God who not only gives, but determines. The last words of verse 11 state “and he gives them (the manifestation of the spirit) to each one, just as he determines” (NIV). We see in this verse a giver, who we already know from the scriptures is God, and a receiver who weknow is man. Now of the two whom do you think determines? “As he (God) determines” also fits with the immediate context of this chapter.

With all your wonderful knowledge and experience of using Greek lexicons, concordances, etc, (as shown in your 12-page treatise) I am truly AMAZED that you could still say it is God who determines what each believer operates - WHETHER HE BELIEVES OR NOT!

How could you possibly entirely miss the point I made about IDIOS, (his own), translated erroneously as "severally" in 1Co 12:11?

With all your research experience, don't you see that the phrase "dividing to every man severally as he will" correctly translates into dividing to "every man his own as he will"?

Why did you choose to focus solely on the NIV version "and he gives them (the manifestation of the spirit) to each one, just as he determines"?

You even know yourself that the New International Version is NOT RENDERED faithfully from the Critical Greek Texts, but "paraphrased throughout", according to what the translators THOUGHT IT MEANT!

And isn't that a prime example of PRIVATE (idios) INTERPRETATION, which is contrary to the very first thing God would have us to know?

I am astounded at you. I said at the beginning of my "long post" that I had done this "once and for all." I suppose you "chimed in" to make me go back on my words - for here I am - explaining the same points all over again!

I am sure you are very knowledgeable of the scriptures. In that event, let me remind you sir: This post is your "second admonition"...

SPEC

:)

PS: I was also a personal friend of Peter J. Wade as well (many years ago). I do not believe even he would concur with your idea of God making us to be like "puppets on a string"!

Thinking about it some more...

Another counter-argument to mine would be that "message of wisdom" is the first manifestation mentioned in the list. And of course I believe that all individuals should maximize their message-of-wisdom skills, regardless of how good they think they are at it.

This is RIGHT ON "in my book", soul searcher! Wisdom is the very foundation of beginning to learn and apply the other manifestations - IT IS KEY!

Pr 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

SPEC

:)

Wierwille taught that Eve either masturbated Adam or performed oral sex on him. (I don't recall which.) Then, claimed Wierwille, Eve consumed the "byproduct" (and the following was supposed to be the "sin" part.) and convinced Adam to do the same. (Consume it, that is)

Yeah, I know. That's some really bizarre stuff to be coming from a guy who was supposed to be a minister.

Like I said, I think it's a bunch of nonsense "and then some", but, I wanted to put it out there as a matter of reference so people could see what kind of twisted mind drove someone we all thought was some kind of great Man of God.

I remember that well, Waysider. And didn't LCM take it to a WHOLE OTHER LEVEL when he expounded (in the "new class", "The Way of Abundance and Power" - 1995) about the sin really being Eve in a lesbian relationship with the serpent, who had taken on the "form of a woman"!

He even found some related artwork ("Temptation and Fall", by Miche) to "prove his point": [Click to enlarge]

Perhaps LCM had "carnal knowledge" (LOL) of what may have been going on between his wife Donna and the current "president" (RFR), and was making some attempt at reproof. (?)

SPEC

:)

The story in Genesis is a stretch to begin with. It conflicts with my knowledge of the laws of the physical universe. Dinosaurs walked on this earth millions of years ago. We have bones and fossils to prove it. And just because Moses didn't write about the Ice Age it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

You'd be surprised what you can see about science, evolution and "the ice age" from the Bible. I have a book coming out soon. (My first!) It will be called, "Genesis One: God's Table of Contents".

Although you probably won't agree with it totally, many things you have brought up are addressed and explained logically.

It should be ready for release around November.

SPEC

:)

PS: And why did you SIDESTEP the issue at hand? I asked you to comment on:

"Do they (parents) know ahead of time that the children will sometimes disobey? Are they instructing their kids to "set them up" or to keep them on "the right track", so they may grow up safe and healthy?"

Did you avoid this because it makes "too damn much sense"? Maybe perhaps because you don't have a proper and logical response?

In an "honest debate", you STICK TO THE ITEM AT HAND - not just go "somewhere else" and start a new "argument" while the other is still there!

You said yourself (in your signature):

The mocker seeks wisdom and finds none,

but knowledge comes easily to the discerning.

Proverbs 14:6 (NIV)

Sounds to me like you may be a "mocker".