Abigail

Sky,

"1. I have a very difficult time seeing someone who would allow their son to die on a cross as being a loving father.

Actually, I dont have a problem with this. I believe the fall of man broke God's heart. Maybe the concept of God , as a wounded person as we are at times, makes him much more reachable for me."

Why would God's heart be broken over something which He already knew would occur? Something, which according to the bible seems to have been "foreordained" to happen?

I think God has more faith in humankind than we often have in Him or in ourselves and He is just patiently waiting for us to figure this out.

I see the Bible as a history a mankind. Of how we have evolved and grown ethically, emotionally, intellectually, etc. Certainly think there are things in there we can learn about God, but even moreso, I think there are things we can learn about ourselves.

Laleo,

"I think there is a striking difference between the religions, "

Funny, I see the opposite. While there are most certainly differences, I am amazed by how many similarities there are as well.

"difference between the religions, between Hinduism and Islam, or between Confucius and pagan rituals."

Differences betweein rituals yes, and world view as well. However there are a tremendous number of similarities in the ethical systems.

"Christianity is probably the most diverse of all the religions. There seems to be a sect within Christianity to accommodate practically every worldview"

In your perspective it is, mostly likely because it is the religion you are the most familiar with. However, if you study Judaism you will find it too is extremely diverse, not just in the number of different "movements" but within in each synagogue as well. Likewise with Islam, you will find everything from the extremely fundamentalist groups to the quite esoteric ones. I've never studied it, but I'll bet the same would be true for most religions.

Gee Oak, why don't you tell us what you really think. ;)-->

Why not Christianity?

1. I have a very difficult time seeing someone who would allow their son to die on a cross as being a loving father.

2. I have a very difficult time with the "us v them"ness not only in Christianity, but within many religions.

3. Pretty much what Oak said. :)-->

A Jewish perspective (though this is just two perspectives from two websites and you could probably find as many pov's as you can Jews - lol)

here

JEWISH REASONS

The truth is, there is no "logical" argument for cutting a piece of flesh off a helpless baby.

Yet circumcision has been practiced on Jewish males for close to 4,000 years, ever since Abraham was so commanded by God. Why does the foreskin need to be removed?

In Kabbalistic terms, the foreskin symbolizes a barrier which prevents growth. For example, when the Torah speaks about getting close to God, it calls upon us to "remove the Orlah, the foreskin of your heart" (Deut. 10:16).

Nowhere does a person have more potential for expressing "barbaric" behavior than in the sex drive.

When Abraham circumcised himself at age 99, God added the letter "heh" to his name. "Heh" is part of God's own name, signifying that through Bris Milah, the human being adds a dimension of spirituality to the physical body.

It is a foundation of Judaism that we are to control our animal desires and direct them into spiritual pursuits. Nowhere does a person have more potential for expressing "barbaric" behavior than in the sex drive. That's why the Bris is done on this specific organ. If we bring holiness into our life there, then all other areas will follow.

IDENTIFYING THE JEW

Another aspect of circumcision is that it is integral to Jewish identity. This point was made quite powerfully by a movie called "Europa Europa," It is the true story about a young Jewish boy trying to escape detection by the Nazis. The boy resembles an Aryan and speaks German fluently, so he poses as a non-Jew and is eventually recruited into an elite training program for the next generation of SS officers.

This boy was on his way to a fully non-Jewish life, except for one thing: His circumcision. He couldn't hide it. And that is what kept him Jewish throughout the entire ordeal.

Bris is the sign of the covenant. So a boy who is not circumcised has basically lost his spiritual attachment to the Jewish people.

The man survived the war, and made a new life for himself in Israel. Instead, he may have ended up becoming a Nazi officer. It all depended on the Bris.

MEDICAL DATA

It is a principle of Jewish life that our decision to perform mitzvot is not based on the "practical benefit." At the same time, the mitzvot frequently have positive observable effects in our everyday life.

Regarding the medical issues, Rabbi Yonason Binyomin Goldberger writes in "Sanctity and Science":

As an operation, circumcision has an extremely small complication rate. A study in the New England Journal of Medicine (1990) reported a complication rate of 0.19 percent when circumcision is performed by a physician. When performed by a trained mohel, the rate falls to 0.13 percent or about 1 in 1000. When a complication occurs, it is usually excessive bleeding, which is easily correctable. No other surgical procedure can boast such figures for complication-free operations.

One study showed that by the eighth day, prothrombin levels reach 110 percent of normal.

One reason why there are so few complications involving bleeding may be that the major clotting agents, prothrombin and vitamin K, do not reach peak levels in the blood until the eighth day of life. Prothrombin levels are normal at birth, drop to very low levels in the next few days, and return to normal at the end of the first week. One study showed that by the eighth day, prothrombin levels reach 110 percent of normal. In the words of Dr. Armand J. Quick, author of several works on the control of bleeding, "It hardly seems accidental that the rite of circumcision was postponed until the eighth day by the Mosaic law."

Furthermore, circumcision has been known to offer virtually complete protection from penile cancer. According to a recent review article in the New England Journal of Medicine, none of the over 1,600 persons studied with this cancer had been circumcised in infancy. In the words of researchers Cochen and McCurdy, the incidence of penile cancer in the U.S. is "essentially zero" among circumcised men.

The incidence of penile cancer in the U.S. is "essentially zero" among circumcised men.

Also, research at Johns Hopkins University Medical School in Baltimore have shown that circumcised men are six to eight times less likely to become infected with HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. Researchers believe that protection is due to the removal of the foreskin, which contains cells that have HIV receptors which scientists suspect are the primary entry point for the HIV virus. (Reuters, March 25, 2004)

Several studies reported that circumcised boys were between 10-to-39 times less likely to develop urinary tract infections during infancy than uncircumcised boys. In addition, circumcision protects against bacterial, fungal, and parasitic infections and a variety of other conditions related to hygiene. The extremely low rate of cervical cancer in Jewish women (nine-to-22 times less than among non-Jewish women) is thought to be related to the practice of circumcision.

As a result of studies like these, a number of prestigious medical organizations have recognized the benefits of circumcision, and the California Medical Association has endorsed circumcision as an "effective public health measure."

BRIS IN THE HOLOCAUST

Bris has been the hallmark of Jewish identification for millennia. The following powerful story appears in "Hassidic Tales of the Holocaust" by Yaffa Eliach:

One of the forced laborers in the camps relates that one day he heard frightening cries of anguish the likes of which he had never heard before. Later he learned that on that very day a selection had been made -- of infants to be sent to the ovens. We continued working, tears rolling down our faces, and suddenly I hear the voice of a Jewish woman: "Give me a knife."

I thought she wanted to take her own life. I said to her, "Why are you hurrying so quickly to the world of truth..." All of a sudden the German soldier called out, "Dog, what did you say to the woman?"

"She requested a pocketknife and I explained to her that it was prohibited to commit suicide."

The woman took the pocketknife, pronounced the blessing -- and circumcised the child.

The woman looked at the German with inflamed eyes, and stared spellbound at his coat pocket where she saw the shape of his pocketknife. "Give it to me," she requested. She bent down and picked up a package of old rags. Hidden among them, on a pillow as white as snow, lay a tender infant. The woman took the pocketknife, pronounced the blessing -- and circumcised the child. "Master of the Universe," she cried, "You gave me a healthy child, I return him to You a worthy Jew."

and

here

The medieval Jewish philosophers, with their strong rationalizing tendencies, were moved to ask why, granted that circumcision is a sign of the covenant, the sign had to be on this par­ticular organ of the body. Maimonides (Guide of the Perplexed, 3.49) advances two reasons. The first (which Maimonides considers to be the best) is that circumcision weakens, without actually harming, the organ of generation so that the sexual desires of the circumcised man are moderated. (Maimonides, more than any other medieval Jewish thinker, had an aver­sion to sex.) The bodily injury caused to that organ, he says, does not interrupt any vital function, nor does it destroy the power of gen­eration, but it does counteract excessive lust.

Maimionides' second reason is that the sign of the covenant had to be in that particular organ in order to prevent those who did not believe in the unity of God claiming to be members of the covenant for reasons of their own. The opera­tion is so difficult and so disagreeable that no one would undergo it unless he sincerely wished to belong to the people of faith.

Philo of Alexandria was the first to advance the hygienic reason. The foreskin is literally un­clean and can be a cause of disease. The more usual reason given by Jewish thinkers is the obvious one that the sign of the covenant through all the generations has to be in the very organ of generation. But, whatever the origin and the reasons for the practice, faithful Jews have circumcised their male children as the most distinctive sign of their loyalty to God. Even Spinoza [the unorthodox 17th-century Dutch Jewish thinker] can remark: “Such great impor­tance do I attach to the sign of the Covenant, that I am persuaded that it is sufficient by itself to maintain the separate existence of the nation for ever.”

"The original point of this thread was to ask Christians why they are Christians."

I was just discussing this very issue with a Rabbi today. :)--> When I sought "outside" help with my journey to know God I chose Christianity because that is the predominent relgion in our society. It is also the most easily accessed. Had I grown up in a predominantly Muslim culture I would have chose that path instead of Christianity.

Now, however, I choose to take the path that makes the most sense to me and sits the most comfortably with me. For now that path seems to have lead me to a Reconstructionalist Synogogue. Should that change in the future, so be it.

Oak,

Ask a Jew :)-->

"An example that pops up is Wierwille's assetion that the first word in the bible "in the original" is "God". The problem is that there is no evidense for this. The word "God" is placed third...Wierwille even quotes the Hebrew of Genesis 1:1 in his section on "formed, made, created" as "berere sh ith, barah, elohim..."

and

"I don't have access to an Aramaic text of Genesis, and couldn't find one online, so I can't verify the word order in that language, but since Aramaic is similar grammatically to Hebrew it is likely that the word order is the same.

The fact that Lamsa translated Genesis 1:1 to put the word "God" first, does not guarantee that it was first in Aramaic."

I looked this up for you, it is the Hebrew . . .

1:1In the beginning God created heaven and earth.

Bere**** bara Elohim et hashamayim ve'et ha'arets.

and these are the Rabbinical scholar notes to this verse

" Others translate this, 'In the beginning of God's creation of heaven and earth, the earth was without form and empty...' (Rashi). Still others combine the first three verses: 'In the beginning of God's creation....when the earth was without form and empty....God said, 'Let there be light.' (Bere****h Rabbah)."

From what I recall from my studies on Judiasm, it seems to be pretty well agreed upon that the word "God" was NOT placed first.

Yup, used the reward system.

Another thing I DIDN't use was pull-ups. I think they sort of confuse the issue becaue they are so much like a diaper. I think I waited until my boys were closer to four, but what I did was explained to them that they were big boys who no longer needed to wear diapers and could use the toilette. We talked it through for a couple of days and then I just started putting them in underwear.

I think for the first two or three days I took them to the bathroom to try every fifteen or twenty minutes, then gradually spread over the next week to half our, then an hour, until they were pretty used to and comfortable with the idea.

With my oldest son, it took about four days. With my youngest, I thought he would never get the hang of it, but eventually, with the proper rewards (which for him was cold hard cash) it did work.

((((Dot))))

I am truly sorry for what is going on at the other site. When I saw what was being said about you over there, as well as about others from here at the cafe it literally made me nauseaus. It makes me wonder about the state of humanity when people are so vicious and cruel to someone and worse yet, take pleasure in it. It is exactly that kind of cruelty that made me want to hide out in the "safety" of a little cult. Not that it was really safe, but you know what I mean.

You take care of yourself and I hope, when things quiet down, you will pop in and let us know how you are doing.

(((Anamchara)))

To clarify...

My statement of disgust at this back stabbing, cross posting stuff was not aimed at Zixar, but over the whole thing, starting with the threads I've seen here which called out them and including the thread over there which calls out Zix.

Well I've finally taken my first peek at the other site. Must say I'm not impressed. I don't care for censorship but that place exemplifies why it is sometimes needed.

I'm also totally sickened by all the "back stabbing" for lack of a better term. Why must one post here about people and issues from over there? and vice verse? Seems pretty chicken s**t to me.

The entire experience has left me feeling very nauseated.

Securtiy gets to be a tricky business, eh? And it isn't just about hurting someone's feelings, it is also about who you hire and how well paid they are. Frequent "changing of the guard" would probably help as well.

Here's another true story.

The attorney I work for was in trial last week. This meant I too was in and out of the courthouse quite a few times.

The courthouse is supposed to be a secured building. You have to go through a metal detector and your purse and briefcase are scanned.

I don't even recall how many times I passed myself and my things through those scanners last week.

Well, it turns out, for most of those passes, I had a rather large pair of scissors in my brief case and no one caught it, though one guard almost did.

This past spring I had been making fliers for the boys' school and had put the scissors in my briefcase so I could cut the paper in half. I had forgotten about them.

The only reason I even found them this past Thursday was because after one of my trips through the scanner, while I was waiting for the elevator, I noticed the security guard was looking over the picture of the contents of my briefcase. He stopped and zoomed in on an image that looked like a knife. I knew it was my briefcase and I kind of wondered what it was I had in there that looked like that.

The security guard never did stop me or ask me to empty my briefcase. I got on the elevator and proceeded to the courtroom.

Later, when I went home, I emptied my briefcase to figure out what it was that had made that image on the scanner, and there the scissors were.

Kind of spooky to think I spent four days making numerous trips in and out of the courthouse with those scissors in my bag and no one stopped me.

Yeah, I think by and large it stinks.

The mandatory testing forces teachers to teach to the test instead of teaching to the children.

Passing the test may prove a child can take a test.

Doing poorly on a test doesn't necessarily/always mean the child hasn't learned or doesn't understand the material, it may simply mean the child doesn't take tests well.

Schools which do not do well on tests are not necessarily bad schools. It was exactly this emphasis on testing which closed down the school my children have attended. I KNOW my kids were learning there.

I also know about 70% or so of the kids going to this school were at or below poverty level. This means the parents were so busy struggling to make ends meet, many of them didn't have the time to work with their kids.

Testing can be valid as a tool to see where things can be improved, but it should not be used as the end all determination of how a school is doing.

I watched my children's school spend money which could have been used in the classroom to bribe parents (incentives) to make sure their children were present on testing days and to bribe children into trying harder to do well on the tests.

It stinks.

I would agree and would love to hear from them!

My mom did that kind of work when she was going to college - she majored in psychology. If you are near a college you might put up postings there. Just a thought.

well I'm with whoever said it first - you say "for men only" and I just have to look.

That being said, the awful images running through my head are, I suppose, completely my own fault.

However, Galen, I am extremely grateful we have never met in "real life" and I have no face to put with the image, so to speak.

E-mail me if you are around and I'll tell you who I am. I would love to hear from you.

Incident #1 - public berating received by me for bringing my very young children to a showing of a Martin Luther movie. I brought them ONLY because leadership told me to. The very same leadership which told me to bring them, chastised me in front of everyone for doing so. What is worse, many of the people present KNEW I had been told to bring them, but never spoke up on my behalf.

Incident #2 - I brought my very young children to fellowship because I was told to by my leadership. I did not want them there and neither did their father because they could not sit still and quiet and it was past their bedtime. I was later publicly reproved by my fellowship coordinator's leadership for bringing them.

Incident #3 - my best friend was publicly reproved for praying for "cop-outs" in fellowship.

Incident #4 - during incident #3, the fellowship coordinator used the "f-word" on his wife and ordered her to leave the room and go upstairs.

Those are just the four incidents which come immediately to mind. Believe my, by the late 1990's public humiliation was no longer only for the NaziCorps or "initiated". It was becoming quite common place.

In fact..........

#5 I witnessed to my best friend who lived in another state. She was publicly reproved for not making her toddler close his eyes during prayer, BEFORE she ever even took PFAL. Needless to say, she didn't hang around TWI very long.

I would love to hear from you, I knew you in Michigan!

Anyone know what happened to him?

Yes, Refiner, they did. It's a great way to keep people in line, cause you always know in the back of your mind, as your watching it occur to someone else, that you could be next.

For you Rascal, because I do understand.

This chapter of my life took place four or five years before I ever heard about TWI. It is not about TWI, it is about women and what an unwanted abortion can do to them.

Three weeks after graduating high school, I moved to another state and got married to a boy I barely knew. I was totally infatuated with him. I thought he was was everything I was not, smart, sophisticated, etc. I was totally floored that he was even remotely interested in this little hick from the U.P. A month or so after we were married I was pregnant, not on purpose, but because he told me he could not have children without medical intervention so I didn't need birth control. I believed him.

When I told him I was pregnant he told me if I had the baby the marriage would be over. I wanted to have that baby. My heart told me having an abortion was wrong. But I couldn't face going home to my parents alone and pregnant.

I had the abortion. I don't know if something went wrong with the procedure or if I just did too much afterward, but the next day I spiked a fever over 101. I don't remember much about the 48 or so hours that followed, though I do recall there was talk of bringing me back to the clinic and that sent me into hysterics (not the haha kind).

Ironically, less than six months after I married him, I left him. And I mean I really left him. I moved to the other side of the country to get away from him. Then I discovered I was pregnant again. I wanted to have that baby too, but when he sent the divorce papers they stipulated that he would have full custody of the child. I didn't even begin to know how to fight him. I was terrified of him. During the few months we were married he reminded me over and over again of how crazy I was, even threatened to have me committed. When I first talked of leaving him he almost choked me to death (which I think scared him almost as much as it did me). I knew he was not fit to be a parent. So I had another abortion.

I was five days shy of thirty years old before I gave birth to my first child. During all of those years in between, most days I figured I never would have a child. It was my punishment for the two I aborted. I lived with guilt and shame for so very many years. I attempted suicide once, though it was really more a cry for help than a desire to die.

Now, as an adult and a parent, I no longer regret what I did. I wasn't fit to be a parent all of those years ago and neither was he. But those who have never been through it cannot even begin to understand the guilt and shame a woman can carry when she has been pressured into having an abortion when it is not what she wants. And despite how prevelant it may be today, it was not that long ago that having a child out of wedlock was also a terrible shame.

There is a tremendous difference between teaching abortion is not murder and pressuring someone into having one. I do not see why this is such a difficult concept for some to understand.

"TWI gave these women an opportunity to stay in the Way Corps if they wanted, after screwing up. Sounds pretty charitable to me.

March 7, 1976. I will remember that day as long as I live. That's the day I got dismissed from the 6th Corps, for screwing up.

Dismissed. Good bye. So long. Don't let the door hit your butt too hard on the way out.

And so, from my viewpoint, those women were given a choice, and they were treated decently. Opinions vary. "

Ah, and perhaps here we have the true crux of the matter for Oldies. Not if it is Godly, not if there was abuse, etc. but damn it all it just isn't fair that they kicked HIM out and let YOU stay!!!!!!

Perhaps, Oldies, you are still so bitter about this, that you just cannot see how truly fortunate you were.

"I'm also told that TWI is getting back to studying and teaching VPW's books and teachings. They are not trying to bring back the good ol' days, but they are trying to follow the foundational teaching he did and then build on that."

RoyalG,

They were doing this back in 1999 and 2000 before the s**t hit the fan with LCM, when I was still in. I didn't buy it then and I wouldn't buy it now.

IF they are still or once again working through VPW's stuff my bet is it has more to do with trying to persuade people to stay or come back so they can get more cash, than it has to do with anything truly loving or spiritual.