Abigail

Objectification.

To every man his own truth and his own God within.

Oh I don't know Johniam. I remember the first time I tried to leave TWI. I had two men I barely knew in my living room yelling at me and accusing me of all sorts of things. They said my marriage would fail, I'd never have a family, I'd end up a drunk and drug addict, etc. They asked me all kinds of personal questions about my past, insuating maybe I had been a lesbian, etc.

I have a friend who was kicked out of TWI. She had been sponsoring someone in the corps at the time. The corps guy called her, apparently under the 'guise' of finding out why she wasn't sending money anymore. One of the first things he told her was he was suprised she wasn't dead yet. She spent the better part of a year looking over her shoulder, afraid someone from TWI would come after her and try to kill her.

Then there were all of those teachings on how people who leave TWI end up dead.

I think, one could definitely argue there was coersion involved to keep people in.

To every man his own truth and his own God within.

"i don't deny anyone their good godly happenings in twi. i had many of them

but i had lots of bad stuff happen that i bought into (in my young already bruised self)

i hate the "either" "or" position although i might be a hypocrite because maybe oldies isn't taking the either or thing either"

Here's my test, would I want my kids involved? No f'ing way!

Yeah, I had some good experiences in TWI, very good. I even learned some valuable things from TWI. But the cost was way too high and I'm not talking about the money.

To every man his own truth and his own God within.

Ok Exie, you want others to talk? I'll talk.

How about the verses where it talks about when you're married, your body is no longer your own? So even if your ....ed at your spouse, they can do to you what they want. After all, its their body now.

Female leadership taught married women to use sex to manipulate their husbands. There is no scriptural basis for this, but VPW did say the way to a man's heart was through something below the stomach.

Both men and women in leadership positions counselled wives if the men were abusive, it was because the woman wasn't a Proverbs style wife.

They took verses about men being the head and taught the practical application was control, the men were to control the wives. I wasn't allowed to invite anyone in or out of TWI into my home without first calling my husband at work to get his "blessing". If they showed up unexpectedly, I was to leave them on the front portch until I reached him. The leadership knew this was what my husband decided and they backed him up on it.

I was spit on, shoved, verbally abused, had things thrown at me - leadership knew it all. Yet, I couldn't call them for help without getting his permission first. If I did, I got reproved.

Now, for Oldiesman, I will show the other side.

I know now, though it has taken me a while to figure it out beyond a doubt, my ex would have been abusive in or out of TWI. That he was abusive is his fault. That they exacerbated the problem and prevented him from getting help (worldly counsellors not being believers and all) is TWI's fault.

I also know now, I allowed it to happen. I played a role in the "dance". However, I would never have played the role as well or as long, if my heart had not been so invested in God. I believed what they taught was God's instruction to us. I put up with it because I thought I was doing "The Word". This is very much TWI's fault, because they are the ones who taught me that.

Was I gullible for believing it? Perhaps. But it doesn't lessen their responsibility. And to be sure, I am not so gullible anymore, I have taken responsibility for my part. Question is, will they ever own up to their part?

Not likely.

To every man his own truth and his own God within.

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Abigail said:

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But it is not for me or you or anyone else to decide for another at what point they are or should be ready to move out of "victim" and into "recovered victim" or even into "victory".

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In other words, I should just be quiet and not express my viewpoint?

OF COURSE it's up to others decisions. ALL I AM DOING is expressing a point of view.

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Oldies, you innacurately read between the lines. What I said is what I meant to say, no hidden message. Like you, I was expressing a point of view. I value your input as much as anyone else's, even when I disagree, because it provokes thought. Hell, I even agreed with some of what you said and expressed that.

Perhaps, as the written word lacks tone of voice and facial expression, you read my response has being much harsher than it was intended, as sometimes happens when others read your posts.

To every man his own truth and his own God within.

Wow!!!!!

Rascal, your story is sooooo much like mine.

"So is it any different.... whether control over an individual is achieved by use of superior force... a weapon...or the scriptures?"

Different? Yes. But are they potentially equally damaging in different ways? Again, yes.

I have experienced both. I will say this though, it was much clearer to me when it was physical force and that made it much easier for me to take a stand against it and get out.

Oldiesman,

" "The limits of tyrants are prescribed by those whom they oppress." I like to look at my time in The Way in a more positive sense. I want to "eat the fish and spit out the bones." "

I think there is much validity to this. However, some suffered more than others, were hurt more, damaged more deeply. Some just naturally recover more quickly than others too. I agree, there is a point where we have to recognize our own role in our victimization (as Rascal pointed out the women who are doing it to themselves). But it is not for me or you or anyone else to decide for another at what point they are or should be ready to move out of "victim" and into "recovered victim" or even into "victory".

Additionally, even when we've healed or mostly healed, there will be "triggers" which will bring up the old hurts and angers. Over time, those too begin to fade, but again, it is not for one to decide for another.

And finally, by bringing our stories to the front and telling them, perhaps even reliving them to some degree or another, we can help others realize they are not alone, not the only ones, and that they too can heal.

To every man his own truth and his own God within.

Jeez you've ruined my self-image. Here I thought I was a troublemaker as a youth!!! But about the worse thing I ever did was get wasted a write dirty words in the sand traps at a fancy golf club.

Sheesh, thanks a lot guys! ;)-->

To every man his own truth and his own God within.

Sorry, double post. :(-->

[This message was edited by Abigail on January 11, 2004 at 14:05.]

Actually, I thought Oak's story was perfect. It exemplifies the thinking of Waybrain mixed with the foolishness of youth - something most of us have lived through at one time or another.

He owes no apology to anyone who was not involved.

Having had the privilege of getting to know him off the boards - having had him stay in my home - and being female, I can guarantee he has grown up to become a wonderful man and gentleman.

To every man his own truth and his own God within.

[This message was edited by Abigail on January 11, 2004 at 14:07.]

Being in Mich myself and a 90's Wayfer, I'd say you are correct Bob. I got in in 91 under G****y. I thought he was wonderful and very kind. It was 93-95 when things started getting bad and continued downhill. I got out in 2000.

To every man his own truth and his own God within.

Evan, if the touching was unwanted, it was abuse, to say the least.

To every man his own truth and his own God within.

Believers Family Class, I guess was supposed to be LCM's version of Christian Family Sex. I took that class too and believe it or not, even though LCM didn't have 8X10 color glossies and was certainly not as graphic, I still found the "principles" (or lack thereof) more harmful and offensive than VPW's class.

To every man his own truth and his own God within.

Hey, there are probably as many different experiences in TWI as there were/are people. I sat in meetings where my now ex-husband was literally told he was to "control his wife". He even asked once how it was he was to control another person. They told him he was to "use the Word to control me."

I sat through LCM's "Believers Family Class" and listened to LCM talk about how we women were going to have to put up with being "grabb assed" because that was just a mans way of saying he wanted to have sex.

Hell, even the teachings on controlling your kids.......but that is perhaps a topic for another thread.

To every man his own truth and his own God within.

Ok, seeing as how very few have stories they care to share and there has been some discussion on what does and does not constitute sexual abuse, I have some questions for the guys...........

1. TWI taught you you were to control your wives, but if you tried, you know it is pretty much impossible to "control" another human being unless they are willing to be controlled.

Was this teaching a form of sexual abuse against the men?

Did it make you feel less masculine if you tried and failed to control your wife? Perhaps make you question your manhood or feel you had to prove your manhood?

Did it affect your sex life?

These are very personal questions, I know, and obviously no one has to answer them. But having been a TWI wife, I would be very interested in knowning how these pressures affected the men.

To every man his own truth and his own God within.

[This message was edited by Abigail on January 10, 2004 at 5:00.]

Lindy, I don't have an answer to your question but I'll say this much.......

If what I've learned in TWI is true and the following statement is also true........

"For there is no other God that can love you like me and my dear son"

We're screwed.

To every man his own truth and his own God within.

"For those of you who have/had teenagers, did you find it difficult explaining sex to them? Any horror/funny stories from your own parents' birds & bees talk?"

TEENAGERS???? I think my oldest was about 4 the first time I caught him playing "doctor" with my neighbors daughter. We've been talking about this subject off and on since then.

Now my youngest is four and the subject has come up for the second time.

and yes, sometimes it can feel a little awkward, but I'd rather start talking about it now, because I figure it would only be more difficult if we waited until they were older.

No funny stories from my childhood, those would be horror stories.

To every man his own truth and his own God within.

Far be it from me to defend TWI. But if we are to convict them, it should be for those things they are actually guilty of.

I don't know what VPW did or didn't teach on the subject. However, I do know LCM taught in his advance class that people should take medication if it is prescribed by a doctor. He also taught if one wasn't "healed" within 24 hours of any sickness, they should seek a doctor.

Now that is not what I saw practiced and taught in the field by leadership, but it was what LCM said.

The problem wasn't simply in the doctrine or even the practice, it was with the set up of the waytree. I saw it happen here more than once, where a leader would give someone bad advice and the person was either afraid to go over their head or tried and failed because leadership was so bent on backing each other up, regardless of cost, regardless of right or wrong.

To every man his own truth and his own God within.

duplicate - sorry

"There have been cases where religious institutions have been sued over harmful advice. My clearest memories though are of parents who denied their children medical care. Are you aware of cases like that where the church has been held liable as well?"

I know there have been instances where States have taken away a parents right to make medical decisions for their kids. Essentially, the State has authorized medical treatment, which the parents would not.

I think there have also been a few cases where parents were charged with crimes for refusing to allow their kid(s) needed medical treatment and the children died as a result.

I cannot think of a single case where the church was successfullly sued or criminally charged for teaching doctrine which was opposed to medical treatment. This doesn't necessarily mean it hasn't occurred. But I would think it would have been a pretty controversial case because of the separation of church and state.

"Another thought: Would the fact that they are in a position to give counsel bestow liability at all? It just seems odd that a person could be in such a trusted position and be so free to abuse it. "

It would be a very gray area of the law, again because of separation of church and state. Additionally, one might have to consider the type of training the individual "church leader" has received.

However, I do know in cases involving polygamy and Mormons, the State did overrule their religious freedom, so there is a degree of precedent there. But generally, the only time the state gets involved in the Mormon polygamy issue is when minors are involved. Such as when someone marries a minor or has so many children with so many different women he can't support them and they end up on welfare.

To every man his own truth and his own God within.

[This message was edited by Abigail on December 15, 2003 at 4:53.]

Well, I'm not an attorney, Just Thinking. But my understanding is you don't have to be qualified to give out advice, people do it all the time.

It is when you ARE qualified and give out bad advice, that you get sued.

In other words, if Joe Neighbor was not working or educated in the legal profession and gave you bad legal advice, you can't sue him. BUT, if he was an attorney or paralegal and gave you bad advice, then you have grounds to sue.

These types of matters are usually governed by a "standard of care/duty of profession", which has to do with what one might reasonably expect from someone of equal education/knowledge/training, etc.

Otherwise, think of all the people who would be suing each other over bad advice.

To every man his own truth and his own God within.

It took me about five years to leave, after I first started thinking I wanted to.

It took another year or two for most of TWI to leave me.

To every man his own truth and his own God within.

The Chaunnuka Song by Adam Sandler :D-->

If I had to pick an album it would be Manhattan Transfer's Christmas Album.

But I also like Da Yoopers for fun at Christmas

and Jone Prine for serious. Don't ask me why, I know its not Christmas music, but every Christmas I get a hankerin' for it.

To every man his own truth and his own God within.

I've had a number of parakeets (I currently have a male one named Sarah - I couldn't convince Aaron it was a boy) and recommend them as well. Definitely get it young, look for the black rings on the head, if there are rings, the bird is too old.

Only get one bird at a time, if you get two at the same time, it is harder to teach them to talk. They will mimic each other instead of you. Also, don't buy mirrors for the bird cage until the bird is tamed. Have them clip it's wings or I can tell you how to do this. This may sound cruel, but if you are going to allow the bird out of the cage, it keeps it safe and it doesn't hurt them. I lost a couple because I didn't. Someone opens the door and they are gone and can't survive in the wild on their own, especially in colder regions.

Funny story - my mom had a parakeet and two cats. The parakeet used to meow like the cats. :)-->

To every man his own truth and his own God within.

Family get togethers were also very difficult for my family after my mom and grandma died. Christmas is the most difficult one for me because it was my mom's favorite holiday and she went to great lenghts to make it special for the rest of us no matter what was going on the rest of the year. She grew up Jewish and didn't get to celebrate it as a kid and was teased by other kids because of it.

My siblings and I are the only ones who still celebrate Christmas. I took over the role of hosting Christmas and it is a love/hate thing for me. I love the early morning part when it is just my kids and dread when my siblings come over. They are very nice about it, but I always feel like I will never be able to make it as special as my mom did. I started out following all of her traditions and then tried changing some around, but the truth is, it won't ever be the same without her there.

I have a great love and respect for the wisdom I can gain from my extended family and like the feeling of connectedness. But there are also some families an individual would just be better off without. And if they are wise enough and strong enough to stay away from unhealthy families, more power to them.

So, back to giving. I don't volunteer at shelters or anything like that. I will donate to food drives but I would do that any time of year. I do try to take advantage of the holiday to teach my kids about being thankful and I do what I can to help my cousin who hosts the dinner. I tend to get more into "give mode" after thanksgiving, during the Christmas season. Perhaps that is my upbringing because I can't stand the thought of families not being able to eat a nice Christmas dinner together or of kids not having presents under their tree Christmas morning.

To every man his own truth and his own God within.

Seth,

You may want to take some standarized IQ tests which would compare your verbal and nonverbal skills. If there is a large discrepancy in your abilities in these two areas it can be an indicator for the autism spectrum disorders.

From what I've read and am learning there is a lot of contraversy and debate over the labelling. I've found these so far: Asperger's; PDD; atypical autism; nonverbal learning disorder (NLD); high functioning autism and autism spectrum disorder. There is a lot of debate as to whether these are all the same disorder or not. I find the term autism spectrum disorder sort of covers it all and is less confusing.

People with this/these disorder(s) are often misdiagnosed as ADD/ADHD. The symptoms can vary greatly, but the common denominator seems to be this discrepency between the verbal and nonverbal skills. Beyond that I think the different terms sort of described different problems which can be a result of this learning disorder and different degrees of difficulty or severety of the disorder.

Some of the problems include difficulty in organizational and planning skills, difficulty with self-regulation (ex. sensory integration problems), a need for people to communicate very precisely due to the inability to distinguish figurative speaking (sarcasm, jokes, etc.) from literal speaking. An extreme need for routine and structure, which when broken results in extreme stress or frustration and high anxiety.

Well, that's a summation of what I've come up with so far.

Oh yeah, so far I've found the websites on "nonverbal learning disorders" to be the most useful.