socks

I don't know, waterbuffalo. Some things make me think yes, other things no. Check it out:

Romans 7:

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? {the body…: or, this body of death}

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There's a lot of stuff before and after this section. There's a contrast here being drawn - the law of sin which is in my members/flesh "fighting" the inward man delighting in the law of God and the mind (nous) serving the same.

The absence of condemnation is to a person who in Christ walks after the spirit. Who basically "wins" the fight going on.

Christ is the Head of the body, and we the members. Interesting comparison here, although it may not be one Paul made, or maybe so. (there's a lot of metaphors in all this, head, members, etc.)

The head has the mind and makes the decisions and it's there that God is served. The members of the physical body, the "flesh", are where sin resides and the fight goes on against the law of God. When the head/mind wins the body "walks" after the spirit and there is no condemnation.

Now I think about the body of Christ, the Head and the member of that body, us, members in particular made spiritually whole now. There's no "war" or fight going on in the head Christ. He serves God. He was sinless. We had sinful natures but no more when we come to the Head and continue to be directed by the head/mind, Christ.

There's a reasonable case to be made here that when we allow the Head of the body to rule the members, sin is/was overcome by both redemption and action and the lack of condemnation in the church rules through grace and mercy.

What say ye? Hard wired, perhaps, in the sense that we have the capacity to serve God with our minds and allow Christ to lead. We choose, and we have the "mind of Christ" to do that with. The two, mind and spirit, seem intertwined. Could be?

--I'm not explaining myself well, sorry. Basically, it appears there's a similarity between Romans 7 and 8, and Ephesians 2-4. The mind/head and the members/body in both. AS the mind and physical body can be at odds, so Christ and His church can be at odds. But when the mind/Head/Christ lead, God is served. Happy. :)-->

In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.

They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.

James Taylor

[This message was edited by socks on February 25, 2004 at 23:42.]

Hmmmm, I dunno, ex. What does it say about spoons? ;)--> I try to use a large, heavy baseball bat myself. Gets the job done quickly and then you can go out and play baseball.

Okay, not so funny joke.

Uh oh! Stalkers! With spoons! :D--> (what's not to like...!) :D--> :D-->

In general, I'm not in favor of using implements of wood, leather, steel or brick for discipling children.

Adults are big people. Children are little people. Teenagers are big, little people. My son knows who I am, I'm the Dad, the Man, the One. Pop. If I slugged him, it would break his heart and rip his life in two. He'd never expect it and I'd never do it. We're lovers not fighters! :D-->

In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.

They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.

James Taylor

All kids are so different. Our own have been wonderful, I love them both very much, but they're very different. Both are sensitive and thoughtful but my son is more easy going, and he lets go of things easy. My daughter is more sensitive. I've had to learn to deal with them in different ways.

I still remember very vividly when my daughter was about 3 or so, and she was a bundle of happy joyful energy, always bright and happy. I never spanked her, ever. Her mom did, lightly at times, very quick attention getter kind of correction. Never "hard" as in THIS IS GONNA HURT ME MORE THAN IT DOES YOU. She was with her all day, and I wasn't.

Anyway, one day she was being disobedient about something and I knelt down and took her hand and said "NO!" and she started to take off. I held her hand and gave it a light smack and repeated "No sweetie!"

She looked at me and turned 5 shades of red and her eyes got huge and for a second I thought she was going to wail. But she just teared up and the corners of her mouth went down and she said okay and stood there and quietly cried looking at me like..."You...hit me....". I very nearly cried myself. That's all it took and for her it was lot.

Kids. Children are like windows of glass, panes of clear clean glass that the light shines through. Handled carefully the glass ages well. Handled roughly, it gets smudged and dirty and even cracked or broken. I so looked forward to the birth of my son first and then my daughter I was very aware of how I wanted to handle them. But, like all parents, I've made my mistakes. Every child deserves the best for no other reason than they just do. We all do.

Discipline and correction are necessary things for children of course. They're all little balls of foolish undirected energy. My part would be to say "gently, be gentle with the glass" and learn how that one special piece needs to be handled and do what's best for it.

In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.

They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.

James Taylor

Yikes!

As for wooden spoons, to be honest, never used them and refused to support that approach. No one ever argued with us about it. My wife was involved with Way Children's fellowship for several years, and we never had any problems in our fellowhips with that. She tried to keep a close eye on how parents dealt with their kids. It's hard being a parent. Frustrating at times, and confusing at others. We found it best to try and be there for the parents and talk about stuff if they were at wits ends.

I understood the logic of using an object rather than your hand, but I also saw it the other way. Hitting a child with an object just seemed medieval to me. Everyone going around with their wooden spoons sticking out of their back pockets. It just seemed rediculous. If that offends anyone who's found it successful and useful, sorry. Just my opinion. I know what the bible says about the rod of correction, and I'd use "it" very carefully if I was going to. Being prepped with something to whack a kid's hand or butt with just seems like you're to be expecting to use it.

Wooden spoons work GREAT for stir frying vegatables though.

In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.

They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.

James Taylor

Love ya back. And actually, I've been good. I lied. ;)--> Honest.

I've got a cool little book by George Mackie, a Scottish minister who lived in the middle east as a missionary, for many years. He has some exquisite things about shepherds. One is the close relationship that develops between sheep and shepherd. A flock learns to respond to him. Shepherds aren't weinies. They have to stand up to everything from wild animals to bandits who want to steal the flock and they often travel solo. When the rubber meets the road, the only thing between an attacker and the sheep is the shepherd and it doesn't sit well with the owner of the flock if he comes up short and loses any. The rod is used to guide the sheep and it's also a weapon against their enemies. If the shepherd dies on the field, it's usually alone and defending the flock. No shepherd who stays employed runs out on his flock. It's not an easy job, but they do it even to this day. Interestin'.

In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.

They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.

James Taylor

I've been a bad boy! ;)-->

In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.

They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.

James Taylor

quote:

---

i don't know, i think there's something about him feeling strongly about one little lamb

---

So true.

Galen, TWI may have been a fledgling at abuse. My wife says we left before they had a chance to be really mean to us. (she's a very forgiving woman) I say, we left before I had a chance to be really mean to them. But that's just me. It was better to walk away.

In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.

They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.

James Taylor

I'm sure that any praying for people to die, be "turned over to satan" or otherwise made in to unusable pork-product is done in private.

In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.

They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.

James Taylor

Aww, ex, you're a Good Mom. :)--> Kids need that. Adults too.

In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.

They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.

James Taylor

IMF, :D--> :D--> :D-->

The devil IS in the details! and I do remember that OJ skit, johniam. classic. Look where it got HIM!!!

Garth, anything I can do to get that monitor clean is my pleasure!

Exxee, I bet you're right.

I agree in general, IMF. I firmly believe there's a difference between the trust and faith taught about in the bible and the Magic of Believing. Believing is obviously the base level tool we use to do anything, be it eat Ho-Ho's or use the right amount of toilet paper at the right time. It's when we mix it up with "unleashing the power of GAWD" in our lives that honest sweat equity turns into Weird Science and we start to sound like the screen test for Dumb and Dumber that got turned down because it was too real.

In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.

They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.

James Taylor

This brings up an interesting question and it's serious, although it sounds not. Serious.

When someone prays about a sports event, for the team of their choice to win, and the other to lose, does that fall under the same category as IMF is describing?

Like the World Series. For someone to lose, it probably means their team is going to make some errors. Some pitcher's going to have his balls knocked out of the park. The seamed ones I mean. so somebody's got to lose.

Really - then the pitcher gets dropped, loses his contract, heads for the minors 3 years later, turns into an abusive putz, wife leaves him, kids hate him, he becomes a drunk, and ends up in a flop house and one day gets hit by an Ice Cream Truck driven by a guy wearing a t-shirt bearing the name of the team he lost too in the Series and all of this happens before he can recover, write a book and have a talk show. Which adds serious insult to injury.

If we pray that both teams play their 'best' but the bestest play be done by the team I support, is that right? Losing coach rants in locker room interview after the game, hits photographer, gets sued and ends up driving an Ice Cream truck, which he enjoys but the owner of the company has investments in the team he lost to and has all his vendors wear their T-Shirts.

-->

In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.

They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.

James Taylor

The 3 Stooges Go to the Moon...a film classic!!! Humor, social commentary (man's greatest technological achievement in his own hands, run amok)...chaos, food fights, eye poking, ear pulling. Aaaaah. It had it all! :)-->

What can I say? I like "Abba" too. What's not to like? Euro-babes in knee boots. Oh yeah, the guys, I think there were some guys doing something too, maybe. :P-->

Nyuk nyuk nyuk!

In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.

They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.

James Taylor

Thanks backatya, Roy!

ex10, he didn't do many of his better known songs. Some new stuff, other stuff. I don't know all his music that well. Opened with the Pretender. I like a lot of his rock-ier stuff, "Somebody's Baby", Running on Empty, World in Change. He didn't do much of that. His sound is so well developed with his style. It's like a combination of folk, rock and country. He had a couple great guitarists, one who really did some nice work that echoes David Lindley's lap steel stuff and a couple tunes where it sounded like he was referencing Roy Buchanan, sound for sound. Great player. Plus a backup female singer that was GREAT. She had one little solo spot at the end, my wife wanted to hear more of her. She really blended well with his voice. Overall, he was definitely doing a country-rock-alt sound that made me remember he was one of the guys who developed that whole sound and gathered musicians around him that made "it". :)--> He's aged well, although he looks like he could use a good night's sleep. :)-->

Oh! The topic! I'm been trying to get going on 3 things in my personal study, this topic, the Return/End Times/Whatchacallit and morals and ethics in the bible. I've been reading Henri Bergsen's stuff for a few years and now kind of branching out. No plan, need one. :D-->

But this idea of the gentile who does the law by conscience and Paul's comparison to the Jew who has the law but doesn't "do" it has me going on salvation in Jesus Christ.

From a sort of mechanical view, salvation "fixes" one "problem", but how does it address others? How we think, act, decide, choose? Is there a natural inclination in the new nature to act and think a certain way? What effect does that have on me, my soul and personality? Is it entirely a matter of me choosing? The whole idea of the renewed mind seems to head that way. Another view I've read is sort of an "anti-renewed mind" (although not against personal choice) view, that the natural progression of a new life that starts with the new birth is to pursue God and Christ and that we actually have to "shut off" that impetus to ignore God. The spirit is constraining and compelling us one direction in other words and it's a deliberate and forced choice to NOT do that. But if we...go with the flow for want of a better phrase, we are led towards that "mind of Christ".

Sounds vague, maybe on the topic. Dunno. I'm just thinking out loud.

In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.

They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.

James Taylor

Aaaaah. A CLASSIC! Is it a guy thing? Like the 3 Stooges? I love that movie.

We're watching Austin City Limits here in an hour or so. Our local PBS is re-showing a Jackson Browne concert. LOVE ACL. Down your way! :D-->

In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.

They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.

James Taylor

"I knelt that night. I don't often kneel when I pray but that night I did and..."

Well, love you too! :)--> Is this a teaching thread?

Sorry, I can't resist beating a dead horse. :D-->

Nothing to do with this thread. I'll settle down. Sorta.

Not at all. Jump ahead. I'm the middle child. I get it coming and going! :D-->

In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.

They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.

James Taylor

Thanks, sir! I've really been trying to go over the moral ground the bible presents. God so love "the world". Granted He doesn't love the enmity between Himself and mankind, but it's obvious He knew we were at worst an accident waiting to happen. Even if I view the biblical records as a filter, a way of recording things from our perspective only, "God" as written about appears to have offered choices - life is one choice after another. Wouldn't there have to be a means of making that choice between good and evil, right/wrong, Jesus/no Jesus? If we were absolutely empty of any ability to know right from wrong we'd never "learn", we'd only survive, maybe, and there'd be no way to recognize "light" or right.

I read a piece that described that part in Romans 2 as the answer to the question "but what about the people in (BumFlock) who never hear about Jesus?" People will be judged at the base level of how they responded to that inner sense of right and wrong and how they lived. "Conscience". Interesting read. Can't find it now, it was in a series of online searches I was doing. It's not a new idea I guess.

Don't beat me, ex10! I'll get on topic, promise! :D-->

In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.

They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.

James Taylor

quote:

---

Originally posted by socks:

Makes more and more sense to me, ex10.

The more I read these days in the New Testament, the more I see Him. That probably sounds stupid to some, but I guess I'm a slow learner. Better late than never, maybe.

Side-ways point:

Pauls talks in Romans 2 about the "gentiles" and how when those who don't have the Mosaic law and it's promises act according to their conscience, they are in fact more obedient to "the law" than those of Israel, the Jews, who have the law given to them but don't do it. Within those verses it seems to say the conscience provides the means to obey the essence of the law of God and can provide those who seek to do right a way to know right and wrong.

I've been reading some things about this, trying to get a feel for it. It's common for Christians to view the "unbeliever" (gentile) as having no moral center, no means of knowing right from wrong without "the bible". But Paul paints this idea that in fact the essence of what the law required in action could be observed by responding to the conscience.

Which is kind of leading me to believe that Paul recognizes that there is a moral center in the soul of humanity, God-given, that can know right from wrong in the same sense that the O.T. law dealt with it.

He also addresses the consistency of a sinful nature in all mankind, Jew or Gentile, but this is interesting to me. It seems to make sense and would account for the ability common to all to respond to God's redemptive plan and a feel a need for a larger "good" if you will.

Hmmm. So that's made me think about holy spirit and what we have generated in our lives through Christ.

If it's not by works of the law that our faith is made acceptable, but by Christ, it stands that other "good" works of moral/conscience follow suit. Good works, stuff we do to be "good" go to a point and stop, regardless of where they come from, the law or conscience. Acceptance of Christ's completed works pick up at that point, doing what we can't-we're not even supposed to. From there, what we do follows God's plan in Christ, the church, one body, etc. all the things that Ephesians says about it.

So, long story long, the real difference between what a person with holy spirit does and someone who doesn't have it is focused on Christ. The character of that spirit is Christ Himself, "Christ in us". Our works and stuff can now be acceptable because they progress out from that h.s. , our new "conscience", moral sense. Within that is the capability for altruism and love without hypocrisy because it flows from Him in us. He has that demonstrated and continued capability and quality as seen in the gospels. We are connected to Him in a unique way that opens Him up to us.

Just thinking, Ephesians seems to say most of this. Guess I'm just thinking it over. Make any sense?

_

In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.

They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.

_

James Taylor

---

In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.

They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.

James Taylor

dubble bubble post!

[This message was edited by socks on February 21, 2004 at 21:11.]

Flipped up stuff on this thread! :)-->

quote:

---

It makes me wonder, could all the evidences, gifts, manifestations, whatever you want to call them, be for comfort? mainly? Lord knows we need a little of that in this life.

---

I hear ya, ex10. One little part of this that hits me when I read the gospels is how much the disciples loved Jesus and He loved them. They had a really close relationship. Almost extraordinary the way they hooked up and lived together, and kept coming back to one another. They struggled with what He taught, asked questions, argued about it all, had high expectations one minute, were scratching their heads the next and through it all there's that loving friendship growing and growing.

It must have fried their brains, seeing Him riff with the Pharisees. Here these Starched Ones had hassled everyone all their lives and Jesus deals with them like their chopped liver. You can imagine the way they felt - as long as Jesus was on the case, 'sall good.

The disciples seemed so distraught at the idea that he was leaving them, going somewhere. "Where?", "Can we come?", "Which one of us will be Top Dog when we're all together, y'know, later on?" He tells them don't worry, I'm going away but I'll send a Comforter.

Why the comfort? A part of it had to be that the one they had loved and followed was leaving, and apparently before all the Big Plans came about. Their friend, leader, teacher, was going away. But the Comforter would come, He wouldn't leave them alone. And remember this............"I'll be BACK!" :)-->

In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.

They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.

James Taylor

[This message was edited by socks on February 21, 2004 at 3:14.]

Yes he did, corrydj. I was really impressed by Gibson's knowledge, candor and humanity. I normally don't like Sawyer, she always has that pained look like she sat on a pin and she seems to think that asking the same question 5 times is doing a 'tough interview'. But she let him answer his questions and let the answers stand.

I think the toughest thing to see about Jesus's death is the fact that the crucifixion wasn't meant to be a bullet to the head and bye-bye. It was intended to be a horrifying and painful death.

It's caused quite a stir. I've been curious about how Gibson came to making this movie, and why it became so important to him. Catholicism has always dealt with the graphic depiction of human suffering as a means to salvation. I was raised Catholic and in a way it doesn't surprise me that he'd focus on this given his religion. It's definitely causing discussion on Jesus and what his death means.

I'll be watching how it unfolds closely, like a lot of people I'm sure.

In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.

They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.

James Taylor

Agreed, care for the age and maturity of the views is important.

quote:

---

The movie may have the opposite effect than stated, and cause a spiritally negative feeling of grief and remorse in the Christian Church.

---

It might, it might. It always amazes me that people AREN'T shocked at the story of the crucifixion, even many Christians. Maybe some people read it and just flip to the next page. It might do some people good to wake up and think about what it says actually happened.

Last year, "Hellraiser" ran on a network station, rerun in normal viewing hours. I wrote the station and told them they should have their licencse revoked. We definitely need to watch out for our kids.

In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.

They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.

James Taylor

Talkin' to me agin, are ya there Ala? :D-->

(duck!)

You're right. Mints. Cracked in half for easy consumption. Thanks A la. Tissues, too. Never know when I may need to blow my schnozz, figuratively speaking of course. Little cups of coffee. Sippin' glass.

But keep in mind Way Webnad, this stuff doesn't bless me, it blesses you, I "hate" it, I just do it so you can be blessed.

In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.

They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.

James Taylor

Here's my quarterly free advice for the Way website. I put it nicely in case it's someone's kid working on it.

Can you peepul say "alt tags"? Google it, check it out, use it. Live it, be the alt tag. Never let it fall by the wayside. Don't just speak the alt, DO the alt.

What's the benefit, ye ask? Take your mouse and place your cursor over my little dancing Calvin guy. GENTLY! He's a sensitive li'l guy.

Hold it still for a sec. See what it says, Way Web Dude/Dudette? "Picture of socks"...!!!! That's not just for everyone who can't figure it out just by looking at it that it's a picture of socks, which might sound whacked but you're in the Way so we won't go there. But think, ponder, consider, the things you could do with that little alt tag thingie.

Like for starters make your site COMPLY with accessibility standards for WEB SITES, ya binkie heads, just like everyone else in the known universe.

Please...listen to me, web designer person....

You have the site sized for an 800 X 600 screen resolution. Good idea. But once you get out of the main page, every page is indented around the top and left hand side. And depending on how large a person sizes their browser window it's not straight and looks off.

Do this: go to the body tag and add this line-

leftmargin="0" topmargin="0"

The page will fill the whole window then or at least look like it. Unless you like framing the whole thing in white which may be the case, but if you're going to do that then make all the pages including the homepage do that. Please? With cherries on top?

Then get back to me via this board. We're just getting started. ;)-->

And don't say I never gave you anything!

(P.S. I know, I know, I'm being sassy with you and that's not so easily entreated is it Way Webbie Person? But hey, this is free and you're getting valuable training so I get to make fun of you in exchange, make you get my coffee, set up my ashtrays, laugh at my jokes and massage my...........ego. :D-->.

Not forever. Just till you graduate....) :P-->

In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.

They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.

James Taylor

[This message was edited by socks on February 17, 2004 at 19:11.]

[This message was edited by socks on February 17, 2004 at 19:12.]

Vaguely reminscent of the Saturday Night Live skit, with John Lovitz, where they're all coming out of a theater commenting on a movie and they're hypnotized, big eyes, talking slowly...

"I - loved - it. It - was - great. I - liked - it - bet - ter - than - Cats. I'm - go - ing - to - see - it - a - gain - and - a - gain...."

It looked like a promo for a retirement home.

Doesn't the sun shine in Ohio anymore? I haven't seen so much paste since the glue factory exploded.

"The Way...the other white meat".

In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.

They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.

James Taylor

Aha! a fiddler in our midst...? !

"We're all dry now"....

In a line, in a line, they're all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.

The do not change, they do not fall. They have nowhere to go.

James Taylor