socks

Mmm, I'm back shoehorning in to your discussion with Gingertea, Mike, but she brings up a really interesting point about selling fear.

If I look at the original PFAL syllabus I have, the chart renderings are laid out to present it as the flip side of "positive" believing, right? Fear is "negative" believing. What you do when you have positive believing you do on the negative side when you have fear. Two sides of the same coin.

In fact, one of the listening with a purpose questions for session 1

was "what are the two sides of believing"?

Understanding and accepting fear as an element of believing was a basic teaching to be both understood and put into practice. Don't have "fear", have faith, believing.

Negative believing was an important point to understand that VP wanted people to examine and integrate into day to day living. Why? So they could identify the cause of bad results and events in their life that prevented the more than abundant life from being realized. PFAL was to learn H-O-W.

PFAL session one expounds the position that when something "bad" happens, it could be because of 1) not knowing a part of God's Word or 2) not believing it, and not believing it could clearly be believing "negatively", as in say, God says be healthy but you worry and have fear that you'll be sick. So you get sick because in that instance it was your negative believing or fear that you would get sick. It's not an extreme outlandish possibility, it's taught as a basic foundational first session let's get this straight first kind of thing.

Key point: it's not taught that it's the ABSENCE of "positive believing", it's the PRESENCE of negative believing that causes the result. Negative believing applied to a situation will produce those results that the person focuses on, and on the flip side positive believing will produce those kinds of results that the person focuses on and if...those results are those of God's Word, they will receive that.

It's right in the class, first two sessions. Believing isn't presented as being restricted in it's rightful place to God's Word, because as it's been stated in this thread before, if a person believes negatively there's no God's Word involved. Christian or non-Christian, saint or sinner, Joe Blow or VP,

Years ago I read a couple of Rufus Mosely's books, a lot of Kenyan, some of Lamsa, some Edgar Cayce stuff. There's a lot of stuff about the "god mind" and the "Christ mind", the eternal spirit mind, stuff like that. This idea of pneumatikos energy in operation is in a lot of those teachings that VP absorbed. If you took some of those ideas and attempted to teach them exclusively from the bible, that would be a lot like the PFAL teachings IMO.

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

Ginger I think that's an excellent point. In all the discussions I/we/they/us have had about that infamous tragedy, there really isn't enough in the original tale to base a solid or even reasonable analysis on. "It's all just guesswork!!!" :D--> "Scratch it out!!!"

It's taken on mythical proportions but really, we have no idea if it ever even happened, and if it did anything about the why's or the wherefores. It was presented wholecloth as a dramatic example of believing and fear.

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

[This message was edited by socks on July 12, 2003 at 18:12.]

Miguel, that one point is a big point, methinks!

I know this isn't the lionshare of what's been discussed in regards to this topic, but to my mind's eye, it's extremely important.

Again, if the instrument of executing legal business was the bookstore, what was in that bookstore needs to pass muster. I'm just amazed as I look back from this vantage point, years later, at how Mssr. Weirwille handled his writing.

It's indicative of what was going on in his mind and how he was applying biblical concepts to practical, everyday matters.

Years ago I had kind of an awakening. I'd heard someone teaching from the bible, a Way guy and he was going on about how getting "spiritually angry" was okay, that sometimes we needed to "stop patting people on the back all the time and pat a couple feet lower". I think he was paraphrasing something VP said. Anyway, I began to look at the records in the gospels, as to how Jesus conducted Himself.

The only records of Him "losing His temper" if you will, are in the ones where He tossed the money changers out of the temple. That's the only time he "raised His hand" against anyone, so to speak. The way the records lay out there's a strong possibility He did this twice in fact, not just once. His complaint - turning His Father's House, a house of prayer, in to a a "den of thieves".

Jesus didn't like it. He felt it degraded the House of God.

No one was stealing really - they were selling offerings to people coming to pray at the temple, exchanging currency, etc. etc. and doing it right there where you couldn't pass by the temple or go in without having to deal with all this hustling bustling commerce. (Isn't it ironic that just inside the main entrance of the "old" BRC, there was the bookstore, where people would line up to buy whatever gee gaws were out that month? Just an observation, nothing heavy, but some nights you couldn't get in that way for the backup. The first thing you went by from the south side was the bookstore)

We're the "House of God", the temple, the body of Christ.

Brothers and sisters selling the "truth of God's wonderful matcheless Word" will never wash clean for me. Ever. Been there, done that.

Anyway, thanks for discussing this. I really don't have much more to say on it, but I thought I'd post this much anyway, as food for thought.

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

Shaz, I do the same thing! It's a great little melody..."He's so-o fine"..."My sweet Lord..."

:)-->

I think we agree, no free passes or coupons for being good or prolific or selling lots of units.

Obeying the laws of the land seems reasonable and downra-ht biblical. Jesus did, He paid taxes didn't he? Really, I'd think that one bennie of being the Messiah would be you wouldn't have to pay taxes, but He did. Just goes to show ya, I guess.

Shaz you've inspired me to drag out that old chestnut topic I like to pick on and give it a whack, and that's the selling of "God's Word" for money, IE personal gain.

I think that the laws of ownership, copyrighting, licensing and all that good stuff pointedly apply to the writings under discussion becuz they were written, printed, published and made available in the marketplace. Sold for money, both as part of the registration fee/donation for the class(es) and through the Way Bookstore, or any other outlet that would carry them.

Is that a bad thing? Let's say for a second no, not on face value. Peopel write books, they're published, they get sold. So what's the beef?

The beef is that if and when we choose to function within the public marketplace, we have an obligation to observe and obey the laws that govern it. Maybe they're not fair or even right...so we could go about trying to change them, make new ones, better ones.

But what's so bad about footnoting sections and saying "these x paragraphs have been used with permission by the author as they appeared in the book "ABC", or whatever the case may be. If you thought it represented the best way to express something, you could just ask the author for permission to use it and if you were granted it, you could use it. Course that opens a whole nother can o' worms I bet. ;)-->

Otherwise...we should not do it. It just seems like basic honesty - and even more so when you're dealing with a topic like the bible as taught in PFAL where the core message is the INTEGRITY of the Word.

VP decided to write, publish, print and sell his writings. By doing so, he was obligated to observe the laws and regs that govern such an enterprise.

Whaddya think, Mike? Was every i dotted and t crossed? Given the estimated intelligence of VP, doesn't it seem like a somewhat more circumspect and expansive approach to his publishing enterprise through the Christian American Press would have been fair, honest, and the right thing to do?

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

Rafael, I figured you'd appreciate that. I really think the whole issue speaks first and foremost to the honesty of the person doing the writing. It's rampant in music on all sorts of levels. The Rolling Stones would be pumping gas if not for a few artist's whose music they absorbed, Muddy Waters, Chuck Berry, Jimmy Reed, some others.

Now all these years later, they have their own "sound" but they clearly and consistently recognize and point others to the "originals" that influenced them so strongly. They obviously feel their music is their own but anyone who knows American music knows the bucket they carry their tunes around in was made by others. It would be laughable to claim it's cut from cloth of their own making.

When we get to talking religion though all bets are off, every person who blows their nose with a bible can say their guided by the very hand of God and they're usually doing it while they're selling you brand spankin' "new" bible hankies for cold, hard cash. And that's the rub. It's all about money. Here's a guy who says he's got the very promise of God that if he'll teach it, God'll teach him bible like nobody's business, and what's he do?

He sells it.

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

Hey Raf. Poked in when I saw your name.

Just for the "record" :)--> :D--> the lawsuit regarding "My Sweet Lord" was over it's similarity to the song "He's So Fine" by the Chiffons, released in 1963, 7 years before George Harrison released his song. It was a matter of musical similarity in the chorus. And here's a quote from the court regarding Harrison's song:

---

The court in Bright Tunes Music Corp. v. Harrisongs Music, Ltd., 420 F.Supp. 177 (1976), concluded that George Harrison had indeed infringed upon the copyright of He's So Fine . The decision was unique in that the court acknowledged that Harrison may have unconsciously copied the tune. The court stated:

"His subconscious knew it already had worked in a song his conscious did not remember... That is, under the law, infringement of copyright, and is no less so even though subconsciously accomplished."

---

I am a real fan of George Harrison and his music and have some familiarity with the field myself, so I'd have to state two things that could be relevant to the discussion of copyright law and it's moral and ethical underpinnings - 1) George Harrison was certainly familiar with the Chiffons music and the music of that era of that there is no doubt, he was steeped in 50's and 60's rock. The court decided against him because it allowed for a "subconscious appropriation" of the material in the Chiffon's song, and although he may not have deliberately copied it, I doubt he denied the similiarity. Morally there may have been no foul, but in application, the two songs were extremely similar to each other in parts.

2) Nothing musical is new under the sun, unless you count actual sounds such as artificially created sounds. All notes/pitches already exist and it would be safe to say (and I doubt any trained musician would argue) that their various combinations have been rendered at one time or another. So similiarites are going to abound and every musician that learns and develops will also take on an "ownership" of what they learn, in the same way any artist or craftsperson will tend to feel they own their own talents and experience. Still, it's all been done before, and where we see "new" musical renderings are in the various combinations and sounds that are written and performed. But no musician will likely say that their musical output is "new". Improved, rewritten perhaps but not new.

Harrison could never have intelligently argued that he was "too late to get the legal ownership" of the song, because his song was in fact completely separate from the Chiffon's song and came years after the other one which had already been written. He wasn't "too late", he simply wrote his own song based on elements of another one. The similarities were in the melody of the chorus and of course the lyrics were much different.

Because it was George no one held it against him over the long haul. Of all the musicians you could name, his was certainly a good heart when you look at his life. Had he argued and challenged the court I'm sure it would have only worked against him.

Arguing along the lines of no one really owning anything "it's all Gods anyways" is an interesting argument though.

Hey, I like your pants, gimme. They're God's anyways. Don't show me no receipt, GIMME. -->

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

Here's a spoon, Psalmie! Let me help!!!! :D-->

===============================================

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

[This message was edited by socks on June 22, 2003 at 4:12.]

Hey, guys....psssst! :)--> C'mere...no really, Vickles, excathedra....look...psssst...

SPLAT!

Me last!

muwha ha haaa!

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

SQUISSSSSHSPLOOOOOOOSHH SHLO00000000PPPPPPPPP!!!!

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

... time for a break, Psalmie needs a straw! :D-->

socks has Psalmie by the head...oh my! He's pushing her face in to the vat of curdled custard and slimey syrup!!!! Now she's up....now she's back down! Over and over...!!!

GLOPPPPPSHLEKSPLORRRRRCH!!!!

gaaaaaasp!!!!

SQUISSSSSHSPLOOOOOOOSHH!!!!

aaaaaah! he's using her own foods against her...and everyone else...the vat...it's tipping.......chili everywhere mixing with the custard.............and Psalmie's eating it! She likes it!!!!...................She wants more?????? the horror..........the HORRRRRRORRRRRR..........................

..........more we got!

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

with a MIGHTY groan, socks lifts first one hand then another as he pulls his chili/tapioca coated head from the MUCK and the MiRE of this latest INDIGNITY!! :D--> (sticking a finger in he gives it a taste)

Not bad! :D--> :D--> :D-->

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

vickles, it hurts to read about that. At least it's past. I can't think of many situations that would benefit from public discussion like that. It's a totally stupid way to deal with important concerns if they are that, yet it's so prevalant in the Way. I used to hate it when VPW would do that, too. Two of the very few times he and I had it out when I worked at the Way Nash involved his temper tantrums and his tendency to fly off in public over things that he could have handled privately. Everyone would figure "well, maybe God told him to do that". Right, that's a good excuse for anything, y'know. Unfortunately he set a horrible example in that category. Many of the people who were exposed to him up close picked up on it, figuring if that's the way he handled things there must be a good reason for it. They just turned around and copied him. It also gave people with short fuses a license to Rip, rather than control their anger and do good by people. Many people liked that feeling that "God is HOT TONIGHT!" when some toilet mouth would get on a rant about someone or something. Like cheap entertainment, but the cost to people is very very high. Sick...

In observing various leaders over the years, I'm sure that the power/control side effects of that kind of thing were big motivators. Now, that might sound obvious, but some people act that way just because their callous boors. Others do it so that they can establish boundaries to control with. It's like "I'm the Boss and if I say you need a New One ripped tonight, that's what's gonna happen".

Plus some people are just plain mean, they like to hurt others and some people like to watch it.

Add a few Singalong the Way tunes and you've got a Branch meeting in some places. Very weird.

Isn't it good to be out of that whole environment?

As far as Nose Goblins in public, ya gotta say something! I'd want to be pulled aside and handed a kleenex or something. That's probably what I'd do with someone else. ;)--> I went walking in to work one morning with my zipper down. :D--> A guy I know grabbed me and pulled me over to look at the cafeteria menu that was posted up and leaned over and said "zip it up man you're going to catch cold!" I greatly appreciated his approach. :D-->

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

[This message was edited by socks on June 19, 2003 at 2:42.]

(socks rubs peanut butter jelly glop from his eyes....)

Recipe for Revenge:

1. One large vat of custard and chocolate syrup

2. One hot summer day

3. Let vat of custard and syrup sit for entire

day

5. Then watch and wait....

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

Charcoal! Reason - flavor!

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

Pslamarino is back!

Argyle like black and say, red?

Cool!

Oh, wait. You said something about being last.

Sorry. :D-->

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

Or was it Thread Zeppelin?

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

The Grateful Thread.

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

...socks notices the spot that ex has marked, and carefully navigates around it as he kneels down in the confessional booth in the Church of the Grease. Ex, AKA The Flying Nun, slides the small window open from the other side and snuffs our her ciggie..."Yes, socks, long time no see" she says as she leafs through the June issue of Cosompolitan...

"Bless me, for I have sinned. It's been 34 years since my last confession. I, uh...well, I had an impure thought...but just one. That's it."

(insert laugh track here...)

Ex drops the magazine, laughing uncontrollably and reaches for her dog eared copy of "The Book of Neverending Penances: 1001 You've Never Heard Before" and finds the chapter titled "Lying"......she says "Right! Hold on, this is going to take awhile..."

Fade to black as the candles outside the booth slowly burn out....

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

[This message was edited by socks on June 07, 2003 at 2:51.]

Steve, this is valuable information, thanks. I think I understand now....

Now the floor's all sticky, Vickles. Chocolate all over, whipped cream on the ceiling, and now Psalmies trying to get it all back in to the hose.... Geez...Paw's going to be P O'd fer sure.

FIRE HOSES!!!

WHOOOOOOOSH!!!!!!

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

"the horror.........the horror..."

The Internet Squiggee Man!!!!! Yikes!!!!!! Waddat????? :D-->

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

Vickles and Psalmie, distracted by the seemingly wheezing thread, give it one last kick, as socks unleashes whipped cream madness!!!

FZZZZZZZTSQUUUUUUIRTTTTZZZZFFFTTT!

Cuff 'em and read 'em their rights! Then secure the dead thread!

muwhahahahahahahahaha!!!!! :D-->

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

[This message was edited by socks on May 19, 2003 at 3:55.]

squish...

squish...

HEY!!!!

:D-->

(inserts nozzle of whipped cream can into Psalmies ear... :P--> )

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'

Tannis, our love and prayers are with you and your husband, and family. I pray his health will be there many more years to come. I can't help you with the people you're looking for, I hope someone can.

Love.

'when you're in love, there's no time and no space. there's a permanent smile on your face...

and hey somewhere, you threw your fear in the sea of no cares...'