On 6/8/2024 at 1:58 PM, Rocky said:

A man sees/hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest...

 

Thanks for sharing such a great song Rocky.  Here's a short clip about how a big part of the production came to be.

5 hours ago, waysider said:

Sounds like a bit of rationalization.

Again, I feel like I'm late to the party.  I'm finding out that Hernandez's view about "good" philosophy being a necessary (or at least a helpful) tool to help Christians understand life and God better is not that uncommon among scholars and some ministries.  Just goes to show that up until a couple of months ago, I was still holding onto vp's catchphrase "it's the word, the word and nothing but the word" (or something like that).

I guess the bible is fair game for ministers, preachers, and believers to come to their own truth.  The likelihood is zero, though, that anyone will find a "truth" that takes all the guesswork and inconsistencies out of God and his promises for our lives in the here and now (IMHO). 

Regarding the article " Relationship with apologist changes heart of atheist."

As some Christians have become evolutionary creationists because they can no longer deny the science of evolution, I wonder if Hernandez’s teachings on biblical philosophy is a way to get around or legitimize the growing awareness of the gospels being linked to Homer and Paul’s epistles to Plato, Socrates and Aristotle.

Here are some quotes from Hernandez’s webpage “Do Christians Need Philosophy?”

http://www.erichernandezministries.com/christians-need-philosophy-question-20/ 

The greatest commandment in scripture tells us to love God with all of our heart, strength, and mind (which literally means your intellectual capacity and faculty of understanding). The first thing to note is that we are commanded to exercise our faculty of understanding as a way of honoring God, being made in His image, as a reflection of His intellect.

As a Christian, or as merely a person with a mind, we need tools to help guide our thinking. Philosophy and theology are vital tools that God has given us to exercise such guidance.

And as a side note, could we not say that the Holy Spirit has guided us to engage in proper philosophy? The issue here isn’t with philosophy, per say, but in engaging in proper philosophy.

We should not think of philosophy as man trying to make up stuff to sound smart. That is what Christians who have bad philosophy tend to do. Philosophy literally comes from the words “philo”, the love of, and “Sophia”, meaning wisdom. So it literally means the love of wisdom, and a quick look at the book of proverbs clearly tells us much about wisdom. 

Hence, if we have good philosophy, our thinking will be properly guided when we engage in virtually every other field of study. Especially and most importantly, our theology- the study of God.

Colossians 2:8...The context of this verse here is Paul speaking to Christians who have had people attempting to persuade them using “hollow and deceptive” philosophy. The key in this verse is to avoid the BAD philosophy, and not simply to avoid philosophy altogether.

Lastly, I’d like to address the view that some Christians take by saying, “the gospel is simple, we don’t need philosophy to understand it”. The error again is that this is not only false, but un-biblical. How can we have the audacity to assume that our own thinking is so precise and proper, that we can afford to be intellectually lazy and neglect the very tools (such as philosophy) God gave us to help understand all that He is? Are we really that prideful to admit we don’t know it all and need help? Or are we too lazy and find it easier to simply say, “the Holy Spirit will just tell me.” This is not how Christ lived his life, because he himself grew in wisdom (luke 2:52), and in claiming otherwise, we make ourselves out to be better than Jesus. Such assertions make these people hard to be taken seriously.

Philosophy is a gift from God, and a gift that will enrich our lives, our minds, our worship, and our outlook on who God is. This is what it means to love God with our minds.

On 6/6/2024 at 6:57 PM, Raf said:

You'll find that is a common theme in these articles. The atheist was declared the loser of the debate without a single example of a failed argument or a successful rebuttal, based on the response of a single person.

Oh well. 

I wondered about this when I read the article "Relationship with apologist changes heart of atheist," so I tried to find the debate Daniel Nieto mentioned in that article.  It looks like Aron Ra (atheist) and Eric Hernandez (Christian apologist) have done two debates; one on faith and one on the soul.  I think it's the debate on faith that may be the one in question.  It seems to be well known because there is a portion where Aron Ra is accused of "losing his mind over a simple question and yelling at Hernandez."  A very popular 16-minute clip on YouTube focuses on this portion and uses gimmicks to make fun of Aron Ra.  Hernandez shows it at the top of his home page for Eric Hernandez Ministries.  It all just looks like a PR promotion for Hernandez.

Aron Ra seems to discuss this debate in an hour-and-a-half video which I have only started to watch in order to find out what was said to be wrong about his definition of faith.  I also want to see how Hernandez operates in his role as an apologist.

On 6/6/2024 at 7:31 PM, Nathan_Jr said:

What's a millennial specialist?

 
 

Being curious myself, I have googled both the term and Hernandez (who declares he is one) and could not find a definition or explanation.  My conclusion is that this "title" is simply one Hernandez invented for himself and may be explained as follows.

Millennials were born between 1981 and 1996. 

A 2019 article titled "In U.S., Decline of Christianity Continues at Rapid Pace" says "Data from Pew [Research Center] between 2020 and 2021 reported that nearly half of millennials surveyed (49%) described themselves as Christians, the most of all religions, another 10% identify with non-Christian faiths and four in 10 now identify as religious 'nones.'

I'm guessing that Hernandez, who is a Baptist apologist, sees himself as a specialist in targeting millennials in order to get them "saved" such as Raf's second post about the conversion of the atheist Daniel Nieto shows.  Why would he want to do this?

One reason might be that getting 28-43 year olds converted increases the probability that their children will be brought up in religious homes and as a result, reverse the increase of "religiously unaffiliated" which has consecutively occurred over the past 5 generations. 

2 hours ago, Raf said:

Relationship with apologist changes heart of atheist.

Menu

Relationship with apologist changes heart of atheist

JUNE 5, 2024

 

  |  SOURCE: TEXAS BAPTISTS

 

Eric Hernandez, apologetics lead and millennial specialist with Texas Baptists’ Center for Church Health, struck up a long-distance friendship with Daniel Nieto at a time when Nieto considered himself an atheist. (Texas Baptists Photo)

 

After deciding the church didn’t have answers to his many questions about spiritual matters and the soul, Daniel Nieto declared himself an atheist at age 15.

From that point, he dove into YouTube video debates between Christians and atheists, never encountering anyone who could change his opinion.

“My favorite debaters were atheists, and they made sense to me at the time. I knew there were geniuses who were Christians, but I felt like they were wrong,” said Nieto, a 32-year-old resident of Bakersfield, Calif. “I was debating online all the time, but no one could answer my questions.”

---

 

---

In late 2021, Nieto watched a debate between Aron Ra, an atheist activist, and Eric Hernandez, apologetics lead and millennial specialist with Texas Baptists’ Center for Church Health. Expecting the same results he always had experienced—Christians with weak arguments being blown away by the strong-spoken atheists—Nieto was surprised to see the opposite outcome.

“I’m really into philosophy, and when I started hearing Eric talk, he was pointing out things I’d never thought about before. It blew my mind a little, and I feel like Aron embarrassed himself in that debate,” recalled Nieto, noting he watched the debate at least a dozen times.

 

The article does show that atheists can change their beliefs and become a Christians just as Christians can change their beliefs and become an atheist.  

Quotes of Nieto from the article:

“I’m really into philosophy, and when I started hearing Eric talk, he was pointing out things I’d never thought about before."

“Eric was hitting me with the concepts and philosophies that Aron didn’t know about."

"I’m so glad I never gave up and threw myself into the fire of philosophy to learn more.”

("Fire of philosophy" here does not come with a definition.  Google offers some but who knows if they are what Nieto meant.)

“I’ve come to the conclusion that Christianity is the only way I’m going to make an impact, spread the truth and try to save the world." (Common Christian talk)

“I feel like I have a different mission in life, and that’s to go down that philosophical road and keep looking for God.”

~~~~~~~~~

Hernandez has done a couple of debates about the "soul" and one of the Texas Baptists' statements of belief is that they believe in "Soul competency, accountability, and responsibility."

Without learning more about how Hernandez integrates philosophy into Christianity, it's impossible to know why Nieto says Hernandez answered his questions about spiritual matter and the soul that no church had ever been able to do.

2 hours ago, Rocky said:

It (changing one's thinking or values or understanding of spiritual matters) requires time and patience. It doesn't (and can't) happen overnight.  

What should one do when they lose trust and become disillusioned?  1) realize they aren't proving anything either wrong or right. Rather, they are coming to grips with reality. 2) realize the narrative on which they have built their "relationship with God" is all about stories. The stories, it appears, are not holding true under the challenges of contemporary life. 

Thanks Rocky.  Your post falls in line with another thought I've been having - have I been too judgmental and/or opinionated with my posts.  Each of our realities about God and the bible is uniquely personal although we might connect with the thoughts and feelings of others.  I've reviewed what the Socratic Dialog Method is and how it's used which has been helpful.

The trip I mentioned earlier will not happen for at least two more months so there's time to think on the reality of living life without relying on a non-existent god for his protection.

I've ordered the two books I referred to in my previous post and am now reading the available sample of "The Illusion of God's Presence" on Amazon.  The author begins by giving a few interesting anecdotes to explain where he's going with the contents of his book, and so far I find it pretty relatable.  I've posted it below if you or anyone else is curious about this topic.

https://www.amazon.ca/Illusion-Gods-Presence-Biological-Spiritual/dp/1633880745

https://www.amazon.ca/Illusion-Gods-Presence-Biological-Spiritual/dp/1633880745

Hopefully, one of the two above will bring up the site.

This post relates to my previous one about God's protection.  I'm calling this one "easier said than done."

I’ve been thinking about the next time I take the 5-hour drive to visit my son and his family, this time without the comforting thought of having God’s protection while driving on very busy highways most of the way.  I’m trying to think rationally to get over the nervousness, but it continues to persist.   

This morning I happened to listen to the YouTube video called “Belief and the Brain: a Psychiatrist and a Neuroscientist on Evolution and Religion.”  Seth Andrews had two guests on his podcast:

- Dr. Andy Thomson, a psychiatrist and author of "Why We Believe in God(s): A Concise Guide to the Science of Faith," and
- Dr. John Wathey, a computational biologist, neuroscientist, and author of "The Illusion of God's Presence: The Biological Origins of Spiritual Longing."

They discussed, among many other things, why the concept of God being a heavenly father can become such a compelling desire and need for bible-believing people.  It concerns the neural circuitry which evolved to “program the infant brain to expect the presence of a loving being who responds to the child's needs.” That innate feeling is triggered again in adulthood through religion because of the Father-son relationship that is fundamental to biblical teachings.  The strength of these adult feelings is quite similar to the strength one had as an infant.  IOW, there’s not just a psychological reason for a believer connecting with an all-loving and ever-present Father but a strong biological one as well.  

This explains why Christians are so unwilling to let go of this concept, and why it can also be difficult for one who has deconverted to let go in certain scenarios even though they know it's just wishful thinking.   Replacing illogical thinking with rational thinking requires some concentrated work to be done.  

1 hour ago, modcat5 said:

Let's nip this in the bud.

FIRST: NO RULES WERE VIOLATED. We did, however, drive past the politics exit and made a note of one of the flags on politics property. 

NO POLITICS MEANS NO POLITICS.

Yes, I am WILDLY overreacting, but only because it is SO EASY to do the politics thing on the atheism threads.

I receive a Google alert every time a news story mentions atheism or atheists. I keep meaning to start a thread about it. But then I remember that I can't because so many of those articles are about political issues, like disagreements about whether and where to draw the line separating church and state.

Let's just keep our distance.

Criticizing Christians for using the state to enforce their beliefs is off limits. Criticizing atheists for trying to tear down any mention of God in the public square is likewise out of line. 

Thx.

Good catch!  I've edited the post.

1 hour ago, Rocky said:

I get it. I've been at this (developing my hopefully more mature perspective on spiritual and religious matters) for more than 30 years. 

It can take time for a person to make such changes.  

Yeah, when it comes to replacing (as opposed to improving) a belief, you are letting go of one thing in favour of a different one.  Letting go is not easy until you have become convinced it's of no value anymore.

Carry on developing Rocky...

2 hours ago, Rocky said:

Didn't I (this morning) just read that you consider yourself atheist? I hope you are not still taking the words in the bible as the inerrant words of God. Even if so, I hope you can recognize the need to re-evaluate that position.

OTOH, are you suggesting it to be problematic how believer parents indoctrinate their children with that biblical perspective?

If so, I can see how you'd come to that conclusion. But YOU do not own what those parents are doing to their children. You and I have enough of a burden figuring out how to cope with our own foibles and make adjustments to our own attitudes, beliefs, and actions without taking on the burdens of others in that way.

No, I haven't changed my mind.  My post was concerning those who take the bible as the inerrant words of God when raising their children."

You bring up a point I've been thinking about recently.  As a young atheist, I am learning about displaced anger.  It still feels like my anger at times is towards God, and yet I believe there is no proof that God even exists.  I'm finding then that my anger is really with the bible – that although I consider it as a book written by men, it proclaims to have divine truth and godly instructions for living. 

So, just as believers are free to speak about what's in the the bible, I think atheists are free to speak their thoughts about the bible as well.    

I'm not saying you are implying I'm not free to speak, but it explains where I am coming from when I do. 

1 minute ago, Rocky said:

This "wise saying" reflects the nature of story much more so than that what's in the bible is the inerrant words of a God... IMO.

That's good to hear Rocky.  But for those who take it as the inerrant words of God, it often results in fearful and shameful beliefs being taught to children and who then reaffirm those beliefs to themselves once they are grown. 

On 10/21/2023 at 4:19 AM, WordWolf said:

 

As for Matthew 18: 6-7, the context doesn't affect the meaning- so the most obvious reading of those verses is what I said it was, as just about anyone can see if they try honestly.  (My condolences to those whose reading abilities aren't up to that task, or for reading my posts for that matter.)

As for I John 1:9,  even the quoted verse makes it clear that the forgiveness is dependent upon the sinner CONFESSING.  The context spells out that it's about the sinner repenting- since the preceding and especially following chapter go into how a follower of Jesus is to do what he says, and that we have an advocate in Jesus if and when we sin.   

Hebrews 10 is a much more complicated matter. Hebrews 10:17 is part of a passage contrasting the Mosaic Law and the post-Pentecostal covenant.

"16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD : I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," He then says,17 "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."

In fact, if you keep reading the chapter, what sounded like Christians getting a blank check on sinning sounds like nothing of the kind.

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

According to the bible, if someone is guilty of Matthew 18:6a (offending one of these little ones which believe in me) and later sincerely confesses his sin, then 1 John 1:8-9 trumps Matthew 18:6a for Matthew's verse is not called an unforgivable sin.  

Two things concerning the Hebrew 10:26-31 verses (parts in blue are my doing): 1) as an atheist, I don't don't believe them to be true; and 2) the concept of such "severe" punishment for choosing to change one's mind concerning a god who made sin and death for all mankind the result of one disobedient act which itself was because of a most cunning spiritual being allowed to roam freely after his rebellion is a main reason I became an atheist.  Besides, who wants to worship such an authoritative love-me-or-suffer-then-die god?

On 10/3/2023 at 12:02 AM, Rocky said:

 train up a child in the way he should go... there are some wise proverbs in the bible. 

Prov 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. 

I agree it's a wise saying and offers hope to parents, but it's not always true.  And in some cases, it's even a good thing when it isn't. 

Faith is a requirement when it comes to believing in God for without it, one would see God and the bible quite differently.  But what should someone do when a biblical concept they have put their faith in proves to be untrue? 

God’s protection is a good example of this.  It is something many Christians trust in because of accounts like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego and the fiery furnace, David and Goliath, and Daniel in the lion’s den.  There are also scriptures like:

2 Thessalonians 3:3 - But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one

All of Psalm 91 – I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust…He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler…There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. (Verses 2,4,10)

Trusting in these verses, however, does not prevent bad things from happening. 

Once this happens, continuing to have faith in them is not thinking logically or critically.  Instead, having faith becomes playing a game of chance at the least or being completely deluded at the worst.  Are there other conclusions to consider? 

On 9/29/2023 at 6:58 PM, Stayed Too Long said:

As I was driving the other day it occurred to me how freeing it would be for a child to be raised as an atheist.

The child would not have to be concerned about which of the hundreds of gods is the correct one to obey.

The child would not have to figure out why he/she was being held responsible for the sin of biting into an apple, by a couple they never knew or met, in an imaginary garden, thousands of years ago?

If he or she happened to see a man hanging on a crucifix, they would not have to be overwhelmed by the thought they somehow caused him to be murdered.

He would not believe that Alluh would provide him 70 virgins if he murdered the infidels.

She would not be forced to wear clothing covering her entire body except for a slit to see through. Nor would she have to be concerned with her family murdering her if they determined she was disobeying god.

The child would not have to be dunked in a river to clear the sin away they supposedly caused to get that guy murdered hanging on the crucifix.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for starting this thread a decade ago of which I now find relevant to my life.  This post, however, is looking at the topic from the other side of the coin.  My children left their Christian upbringing in their teens and now as adults, two of them are atheists and one has no interest in God.  As a believing parent, I was concerned for them and over the years, I have prayed for them and made small attempts at changing their minds.  The thought of them being left behind, going through the Great Tribulation and not having eternal life was distressful to say the least.

Now that I am an atheist myself, that crazy way of worrying is no longer an issue for me.  I am happy to discuss evolution with them, and I'm sure they're relieved that I have stopped saying "I'll pray for you" whenever they're dealing with life problems.  We all see my deconversion as being "better late than never." 

I enjoyed reading most of the posts on this thread. 

On 10/11/2023 at 7:32 PM, Stayed Too Long said:

This is the fear Christians must deal with every thought. Not only must a Christian be aware of physical sins they have performed, but also must be aware their God keeps track of every nasty thought they think.
 

 

 

I have heard testimonies of Christian adults (especially males) where they shared how they struggled with Matthew 5:28 as teens and young adults.  The guilt of having normal, human sexual thoughts was a tremendous burden to bear. 

Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Because of the purity culture within churches, many parents find it difficult to discuss healthy sexuality with their kids.  Then there is how sick vp taught such matters in his Christian family and sex class which many teens took.  I've also heard testimonies of Christian adults (especially women) who struggled with their sexuality once they married. 

Then there's what Paul writes: 1 Cor 7:9 But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion. 

What kind of advice is this to give young adults who again are having natural sexual desires?
 

On 5/27/2024 at 4:07 PM, Rocky said:

 

It took me a VERY LONNNNNGGG time to recognize and realize this aspect of FLOW. When I did, it was freeing in a very real way. I could accomplish things without reference to anything Wierwille.

It took many long hours (over the course of years) it took me to overcome the chains Victor Wierwille planted in my brain in his PFLAP classes (read ONLY this and not that), 

 

 

23 hours ago, Rocky said:

It took me years to get beyond the chains Wierwille installed in my brain.

 

Think about what scientists, mathematicians, or philosophers having curiosity to figure out things they are interested in. Wierwille and Martindale were adamant that any new insight about ANYTHING was ONLY revelation from God. I (NOW) say that's malarkey.

 

Did you have any strong beliefs about God before you became involved with twi?  You went through a lot more than I ever did and you've come through a lot since leaving.  Do you think any of it still has some impact on your life?

13 hours ago, oldiesman said:

Honestly don't know...   but I believe faith is still a requirement to accept it as an actual miracle.   Similar is the story of Bernadette Soubirous.    I believe the hell she went through trying to prove to everyone what she saw, was eventually confirmed by the spring, the healings that occurred, and later her incorruptible physical body.   Even with all that, faith still is a requirement.

Bernadette Soubirous - Wikipedia

The link is an Interesting account of her life.

Bernadette Soubirous had a childhood bout of cholera which left her with severe, chronic asthma along with other ailments throughout her life.  Eventually she contracted tuberculosis of the lungs and bones, and this long-term illness caused her to die in 1879 at the age of 35. 

But here's the thing - according to Wikipedia, the apparition of "the lady" in Bernadette's third vision "told her that she does not promise to make her happy in this world, but in the other."  However, the Sanctuary of Our Lady of Lourdes was built in honor of the apparitions of "the lady" she saw.  It is one of the most-visited Catholic shrines in the world, with around four million tourists coming every year.  (Wikipedia: Sanctuary of Our Lady of Lourdes) 

And although God did not heal her during her life, she was canonized by the church in 1933. 

But because of her religious faith, she will get her rewards in the afterlife – an unprovable concept which requires faith in order to be real in the minds of those living.

Where would religions be without the faith requirement?

2 hours ago, Rocky said:

Here's another thing that we, in TWI, thought was US as individuals tapping into the power of a specific God.

Meditation alone in nature. 42 or 43 years ago, I spent a year as a Wow in Fremont, Ohio. In the Spring of 1982, I started spending some time in a small woods environment along Muskellunge Creek Road, immediately south of State Street. It was my happy place. I felt like I was communing with God.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=fremont+ohio+map&atb=v353-1&t=chromentp&iaxm=maps&source=maps

What was really happening is better described as achieving a FLOW state.

The irony, looking back on it, is in that it was and is something that is not at all unique to TWI or any other flavor or sect of Christianity.

It took me a VERY LONNNNNGGG time to recognize and realize this aspect of FLOW. When I did, it was freeing in a very real way. I could accomplish things without reference to anything Wierwille.

As far as a biblical key, I found it in Proverbs 2: 1-5.

    

 

It took many long hours (over the course of years) it took me to overcome the chains Victor Wierwille planted in my brain in his PFLAP classes (read ONLY this and not that), 

Why? Could it have been because I had been indoctrinated ("trained") to be afraid of world wisdom?

 

 

 

I like the video - I keep saying I want to begin doing laps again and the video is a good incentive. 

I can understand someone communing with God while being in the woods.  I used to do that myself. 

When it comes to Prov 2:1-5 though, I don't see world wisdom here. 

1 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;

21 hours ago, Rocky said:

Not only so, but recognition thereof was an important development in my (still extremely limited) understanding of spirituality in general.

IOW, recognizing experiences we, while in twi, exclusively labeled as miracles due to God honoring our faithfulness, were NOT in fact limited to a certain parochial group of fundamentalist Wierwillites was a BFD for me.

God makes the rain to fall on the believers and unbelievers... or some such similar expression.

 

If the experiences are being exclusively labeled as miracles (either inside or outside of twi), do you mean they are, are not, or possibly can be actual miracles?  I'm not sure of the point you are making by your last sentence.

On 5/25/2024 at 7:48 AM, oldiesman said:

YW and thanks.   So here's a question you may have already answered, but perhaps you may want to expound more for the readers understanding.   The below link has been described as a "miracle".   But what is the non-spiritual explanation?   I will admit, I do believe it was a miracle and can't honestly see it any other way at this point.   Thx.

Miracle of the Sun - Wikipedia

You are not alone in believing the accounts of what was said to have happened in 1917.  There are many travel agencies that book pilgrimages to Fatima.  The info below is from the 206 Tours' website. 

Did You Know These Interesting Facts About Fatima?

• Over 4 million people make a Pilgrimage here each year.
• Over 1 million people attended the 100th Anniversary of the Apparitions on May 13, 2017

• Some pilgrims crawl 600 feet (182 meters) from the Basilica of the Most Holy Trinity to the Chapel of Apparitions on their knees as an act of penance. Then they circle around the Chapel on their knees too, while praying the rosary.  

https://www.206tours.com/cms/blog/fatima-facts-where-to-go-what-to-see/
 

My question is if there has ever been a miraculous event like this one that could not be explained in some other way by experts in different fields such as those cited in the Miracle of the Sun website?  The weeping statues were disproved, and the shroud of Turin was proven not to be the authentic burial shroud of Jesus.

Is it even possible for supernatural beings to prove themselves in the natural realm of science, physics, etc.? 

I was going to start a new thread when I checked and found this one of Raf's which is along the line of what I had been thinking.  If I'm getting off topic though of the original reason for this thread, just let me know.

Seth Andrews has a YouTube channel called The Thinking Atheist where he usually takes calls.  I listened to one recently where he talks for quite a while about finally having had enough of family members trying to get him to change his beliefs back to being a Christian.  After years of telling them he's done discussing this with them, he recently received an article about there being fewer atheists because evolution is being proven to be wrong.  He was in a fighting mood for the first part of that video - quite interesting what he had to say.  Anyway, Andrews has had his share of aggressive Christians calling in or making comments on his videos.

I myself have no family members who still believe in God, so this has not been an issue for me since I deconverted.  But, I'm interested in what insight others might have as to why some Christians become frustrated, angry or uncivil with atheists.

And since this is not a one-way street, I'd like to hear the reverse side as well - why atheists might become frustrated, angry or uncivil with Christians.  (I heard John Loftus admit that he has become more jaded over the years when responding to apologists.) 

2 hours ago, Raf said:

Stephen Hawking had ALS for 55 years. Augie Nieto had it for 18. The average life expectancy after diagnosis is two to 5 years. My sister lived four years and 11 months after diagnosis. So Hawking, the atheist, outlives the majority of Christians praying for a miracle by a factor of anywhere between three and 11, if we're being charitable.

I know, that's a MEAN thing to say. And no one wants to hear it. 

But it also unfairly singles out one person's experience and tries to make an example of it.

The MUCH more fair thing to do is recognize that regardless of faith, an ALS diagnosis is more often than not a death sentence with an execution date within two to five years. It doesn't care what you believe or how much "faith" you put in science. It's there to kill you, period.

But what about the exceptions? They're exceptions. Statistics tells you to expect them.

My sister's ALS was not God's fault. Stephen Hawking's ALS was not God's way of giving a prominent atheist as much time as divinely possible to change his mind and see the light. How do I know this? Because I literally just made that up! This idea of clinging to the possible as likely just because it hasn't been ruled out is not an honest approach to the facts.

I suspect the reason some Christians think atheists are angry at God is that they recognize, if they were in our shoes, that they would be angry at Him (too, from their perspective). And I could see where that would make sense. Dozens of GSers prayed for my sister and contributed to ALS research on her behalf (THANK YOU ALL AGAIN FOR THAT). Did God just not give a flip? Too busy keeping the evangelical atheist scientist alive to give a sick nobody one or two more years of a quality life before she watches herself deteriorate painfully with the knowledge that eventually she will basically drown in her own saliva? Hell, I would be mad at Him too!

But it's not his fault for the same reason it's not Allah's fault it's not Zeus' fault it's not Odin's fault it's not Horus' fault it's not Joe Pesci's fault.

None of those guys exist. Well, maybe the last guy, but I'm half convinced he's a fictional character being played publicly by an amazing actor.

My son has autism because he was born with a brain that misfires in the area of communication. Happens to a lot of people. Happened to my kid. Would have happened if I never believed in God. Would have happened if I were the right reverend so-and-so. It does.not.care.about.my.religious.beliefs.

That's kind of the sad part about realizing you're atheist. You can't pray for people anymore, and let me tell you, that hurts. Because we WANT to do SOMETHING. "I'll pray for you." It sounds like something. And to the person praying, it is. But as it's written in James, if I'm hungry, and you say "I'll pray for you," um. Thanks, but you haven't flipping fed me.

I think that's in James.

I give a lot more as an atheist. Not to churches, but to real causes. Like clean water. Medical research. Feeding programs. Journalism associations. First Amendment defenders.

I could pray for them, but that would not pay a single bill.

I foster kids. I could pray for them, but that wouldn't rescue them from an abusive home, comfort them when they're having nightmares. Feed them. Play with them. Teach them. Clothe them. Take them to their first baseball game or swimming pool. 

People need to do that.  

You bring a depth of insight and conviction in your posts about atheism Raf.    

You wrote, "The MUCH more fair thing to do is recognize that regardless of faith, an ALS diagnosis is more often than not a death sentence with an execution date within two to five years."

But that’s when a Christian will likely want to hold onto their faith tighter than ever working hard to build it to the level of Abraham's in Romans 4, “Who against hope believed in hope…And being not weak in faith…He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith...And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.”  The fact that, unlike Abraham, God makes no promise of healing in the bible is just a moot point. 

Some will hold onto their faith if they think there's even a slightest chance that God will answer their prayer.  Either way, when no deliverance comes, the idea may surface that it's because there is no god but then along come all the “possible” reasons why prayers weren't answered (websites actually give 5, 6, 7, 10 and even up to 20 of them).  IMO, It's like   .  It's better (healthier) just to not play this guessing game anymore.

1 hour ago, oldiesman said:

This all is well said and well taken.   The (let's say) hundreds of bible claims and stories, bring a once-believer in miracles to come to the place of not believing ANYTHING spiritual?   Not to mention that personal experiences of the miraculous?   It doesn't work with that VPW "mathematical exactness and scientific precision" but they do happen don't they?   All of that should be thrown in the trash can like it was all a silly accident?    All comments welcome, thx.

Thank you for your post oldiesman.  It can happen when someone begins to have questions about God (and consequently his word as well), for whatever reason, decides to look for logical answers both within and outside of the bible and eventually discover those answers give enough reasons for them to permanently change their view that a God exists.

I know I've said that my "decision" to no longer believe in God happened one particular evening, but I had been seriously questioning for a while before that night over a couple of issues.  I think the fact that I did go back to the bible afterwards to see again what it had to say was a sign of my wanting to confirm that decision.  And with time, the confirmation came and continues to come as I learn more.