Charity

32 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Some consider the story of Jesus casting demons into pigs causing the death of 2000 valuable livestock near the Sea of Galilee, where people were likely living hand-to-mouth, a historical record. The same will not consider the story of Jesus animating clay sparrows to life part of the historical record.

Both are fantastically weird and awesome stories! But historical records?

By definition, if one believed the account was fictional, then they should not refer to it as a record.  The noun "account" by definition does not include the words "facts" or "proven to be true."  This could be an alternative to using the word "record."

1 hour ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Here are two “records” of magic, sorcery, or, if preferred, miracles, performed by Jesus. Which one is fiction? By what standard?

 

 

When this boy, Jesus, was five years old, he was playing at the ford of a rushing stream.

He was collecting the flowing water into ponds and made the water instantly pure. He did this with a single command. He then made soft clay and shaped it into twelve sparrows. He did this on the sabbath day, and many other boys were playing with him.

But when a Jew saw what Jesus was doing while playing on the sabbath day, he immediately went off and told Joseph, Jesus' father: "See here, your boy is at the ford and has taken mud and fashioned twelve birds with it, and so has violated the sabbath."

So Joseph went there, and as soon as he spotted him he shouted, "Why are you doing what's not permitted on the sabbath?"

But Jesus simply clapped his hands and shouted to the sparrows: "Be off, fly away, and remembe' me, you who are now alive!" And the sparrows took off and flew away noisily.

The Jews watched with amazement, then left the scene to report to their leaders what they had seen Jesus doing.

…………….

 

Jesus asks the demon for his name and is told, “My name is Legion, for we are many.” The demons beg Jesus not to send them away, but instead to send them into the pigs on a nearby hillside, which he does. The herd, about two thousand in number, rush down the steep bank into the sea and are drowned.

 

Hi Nathan, I'm curious where you read the first "record?"

15 hours ago, Raf said:

Folks are certainly entitled to those beliefs, but as Christopher Hitchens once said, "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." The new heavens and new earth are an assertion. Accusing people of being blind to them is a convenient way of sidestepping the fact that there is no evidence in favor of the assertion. Perhaps we are blind to the new heavens and the new earth for the same reason we are blind to pixie dust and the Loch Ness Monster: They are figments of the imagination of human beings.

There is an end to our world here in the physical. But that doesn't make the spiritual more important unless the spiritual can be established to exist. 

I remember writing in another thread (and in a comPLETEly different context) that if you step back far enough in time, you can dismiss and minimize just about any atrocity, especially those committed in the name of a god. So God tells you to kill a baby, and you do it, figuring the baby gets eternal life in heaven/paradise, so from the eternal perspective, how much harm did you REALLY do?

Yeah, that's a problem there. And it's not academic. Don't make me look up the verses where God commands Israel to kill heathen babies, or the honest-to-evilness exposition by the contemptuous William Lane Craig who argued with a straight face that the real victims of that episode were the Hebrew soldiers who had to carry it out. [Yes, he really said that. No, it's not out of context. Yes, he was serious].

Anyway, it's a LITTLE unfair to cman to make this point in response to what he posted, as I am SURE his meaning was much more benign. Nonetheless, I am compelled to respond with my reasons for rejecting the words of that post.

[I re-read this post and I seem a little harder on cman than I intended. I hope I can convey that while I disagree with what was written, I do so respectfully, and my heart is to explain why. Things got a little hairy between us a couple of weeks ago and I am not intending to resume any hostility that I previously exhibited].

Your post speaks so well of what many Christians (no one specifically) find a need to minimize, rationalize or ignore.  Personally, I didn't spend much time in the OT so I didn't focus much at all on the sick and terrible things God did there.  It's like the "out of sight, out of mind" thing happening.  However, for those Christians who believe in the trinity, it must be said that Jesus was right there along with God agreeing with him since they are all of one mind. 

I also didn't spend much time in the gospels, so I can't name where Jesus may have been doing the "like father, like son" thing, but he did teach that like the tares are gathered and burned in the fire so will all things that offend and do iniquity be cast into a furnace of fire in the end times where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.  He was not talking only about spiritual beings for he was warning those present who had ears to hear, to do so. 

Here are other verses of Jesus casting out devil spirits.  I believe these are fictional stories but if they were inspired by God, they are quite revealing about his son who always did his father's will.  Some might disagree with my reviews of them, but that's no problem. 

Man in a synagogue - (Luke 4:33-35, Mark 1:23-26) the spirit had convulsed him so the man was thrown down when leaving but it "did not injure" him.  But here's the interesting thing: the devil spirit gave Jesus some free advertising saying, "Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God." This, however, displeased Jesus for he commanded the spirit to "hold his tongue."  Maybe the spirit let the cat out of the bag before Jesus had the chance to claim it for himself.

A blind and mute demoniac - No harm done. (Matt 12:22)

The Gadarene demoniac - No harm done to the man (Mark 5:1-13), but here's the awful thing: Jesus had a conversation with this devil spirit called Legion who asked Jesus not to send the many spirits in the man away out of the country but into a great herd of swine.  So, Jesus gave them leave and sure enough, the spirits entered the swine which then ran violently into the sea.  (That must have cost the owner big time). 

A mute demoniac No (Luke 11:14), but here's a comforting thought: in verses 24-26, Jesus taught when an unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walks through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says, I will return to my house and when he does he takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself so that the last state of that man is worse than the first.

Daughter of a Greek mother No (Mark 7:24-30), (21), but here's the disgusting thing: when you add on Matt 15:21-28, you find out that Jesus refused to deliver the daughter because he was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel, so she went and worshipped him only to be referred as a dog by Jesus.  BUT, when she gave an incredibly humble response by pointing out that even dogs get to eat of the crumbs that fall from their master's table, Jesus commented about her "great faith" and healed the daughter.   

5 hours ago, chockfull said:

This is a long response.  No I can’t relate to your exact experience with your grandson.  The experiences I’ve had are different.

So is the answer to the question I asked that you believe Jesus was harassing those kids or abusing them mentally?

Because this is a record of him doing something that was observed and recorded.

Mark 9:25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him. 26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore (mangled, convulsed), and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead. 27But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.

That was some spirit written about in these verses, but the words say the spirit convulsed the child so violently that he appeared lifeless, not Jesus.  Did Jesus know ahead of time this would happen to the child when casting out the spirit, then my opinion is that yes, he did abuse him mentally.  Jesus could just as easily commanded the spirit to come out of him GENTLY, and enter no more into him. 

If Jesus did not know, my opinion would be no, he did not abuse him mentally but I'd have to point out that the spirit came out of the child giving Jesus the "middle finger." (IMO)
 

7 hours ago, chockfull said:

 

So was Jesus abusing those children he cast spirits out of?  Still waiting on that answer.  What does your “going deeper” tell you there?

 

This is the first time you mentioned “spirits” in connection with that record which was how Mark and Luke explained it.  In the past, you spoke only of a “spiritual cause.” 

I wrote: Even though I had doubts concerning the story my friend shared with me, it was the talk of devil spirits that was upsetting.  I had always been that way when reading about them in the bible, especially the one story about Jesus casting a devil spirit out of a child.  That one did come to my mind because of what was happening in my grandson’s life with his non-verbal autism and seizures.

This paragraph was referring to a time when I was beginning to seriously doubt what the bible said about prayer and trusting God.  It was before I had concluded there were no such things as devil spirits. 

I wrote: This bulls hit doctrine from the bible is evil and very harmful. 

This was the statement that caused you to wonder if I was saying Jesus casting out a devil spirit from the child was evil and very harmful.  I wrote it after I had deconverted from Christianity.

No, the BS doctrine I was talking about was not about Jesus wanting to deliver a child tormented by a devil spirit.  The BS doctrine was about devil spirits in general and specifically about a child having one. 

You obviously can’t understand what I was going through at the time because you have never experienced it yourself.  I had written previously about how my grandson would sometimes get physically agitated because of his autism and also about his myoclonic seizures where his head would suddenly jerk downwards and forcibly hit whatever was in front of him.  He had regular black eyes, bruises, cuts and bumps on his forehead and face.  It was painful watching all of this. 

That I had at times (before deconverting) considered he might have a devil spirit was because of those gospel records, and this made the situations even more distressing.  Whether I was wrong in making that connection is not the point.  The point is that now I believe the doctrine that devil spirits exist is evil and very harmful.

5 hours ago, chockfull said:

I guess this is called “personification” where you take all of the negative elements you experienced from a cult, label man’s abuse as God being an abusive partner, and equate some form of leaving Christianity as leaving an abusive marriage arrangement.

Your life your business.  Not a path that has the slightest interest for me.

If you are saying I’m living in denial I think maybe the mirror would point 3 fingers back at yourself.  You are equating fundamentalism and more specifically the specific bondage of TWI with scripture and all of Christianity.  “If that is as far as you want to go” that is the height of ego to think that I am refusing to “go deeper” or some BS you still have ingrained from cult fundamentalism.  Being a scribe or a Pharisee is not “going deeper” as accurately illustrated by my Lords interaction with them.

The vast majority of all Christians consider TWI a cult and VPs teachings to be self aggrandizing plagiarism.  

So was Jesus abusing those children he cast spirits out of?  Still waiting on that answer.  What does your “going deeper” tell you there?

Chockfull, I made no reference to twi or man’s abuse in my post.  I was clearly referring to Yahweh according to the scriptures.  My example of an “abusive, angry, authoritative and vengeful” partner in context related to God, not some man.  Sorry you missed my point.   

My first paragraph was an acknowledgement that there seems to be no harm if people accept God and Jesus Christ based on the positive verses about them in the bible.  I did imply that doing so means these people are ignoring the verses that definitely show God in a negative light.

Is talking about the scriptures that record God sending horrific curses on people or outright killing them fundamentalism? Are these verses not to be taken literally?  If not, how should they be taken?  (Please remember, the fact that I don’t believe that such a horrendous god exists does not deny my right to question them as part of a discussion about God.)    

Now specifically talking about you Chockfull, how far are you going with OT scripture wherein God consistently demands obedience when you wrote in a post “God as Creator was not a dictator so he did not interfere in His creation every microsecond but set up systems where people could choose to talk to Him or not?”  (I still plan to reply to that post.) 

Three times you bring up twi – my post had nothing to do with them. 

16 hours ago, chockfull said:

So was Jesus abusing those children he cast spirits out of?  Still waiting on that answer.  What does your “going deeper” tell you there?

I have not been on GSC today because I've been busy but also because I have been trying to figure out your attitude towards me in your recent posts.  So here is what I want to share with you. 

When you were finally out of twi, you continued for years on the “About the Way” forum talking about your experiences and discussing vpw’s teachings which you no longer believed.  Here, on the “Atheism” forum, I have the same right to discuss Christianity and scripture even though I no longer call myself a Christian nor believe in the bible. 

For both your situation and mine, everything doesn't become perfectly clear at the time we make such a major spiritual change in life.  There are many past experiences, beliefs, feelings and thoughts to share and work through.  Having said this, I want to note that you have brought up “not believing” 6 times in your replies to my statements and questions when nothing I had written in them were about my “not believing.”   Here they are:

Heb 11:6 – I talked specifically about the issue of absolute trust being necessary with God.  Your reply was “If you don’t believe in a magical character how would you possibly try to please a magical character?”

James 1:5-6 I talked specifically about the issue of absolute trust being necessary with God.  Your reply was “If you don’t believe in a God, why would you ever ask Him for wisdom?”

I asked about an all-loving God based on my thoughts about the above two scriptures.  Your reply was “And now that you don’t believe in God you are saying making basic logical statements (which were yours) shows an unloving God?”

You wrote “If you read the Bible and don’t believe in a God it probably isn’t going to be that interesting and you probably won’t read it much.”  (I had not been talking at all about not believing in a God, so why make this point?)

I said you needed to look deeper into Heb 11:6 because your comment in reply to what I had shared about the verse was simply "I mean is this just common logic ?  If you don’t believe in a magical character how would you possibly try to please a magical character?"  Then I shared more about the verse.  Your reply again was not on what I had shared but rather: “What I find ironic is someone with no belief in any inspiration in scripture telling me to “look deeper” into scripture.”

After stating I was confused by two of your statements and asked if you were referring to devils spirits in each of them, you did not answer my questions but turned the focus on me for asking about devil spirits.  You replied, “With respect to the devil spirit comments, you are choosing to be confused as you don’t believe they exist.  From your mouth.”

I think I have been pretty consistent with staying on topic when replying to your comments.  I would kindly appreciate it if you would do the same with mine without making out-of-context statements about some lack of belief in God. 

I think there are enough positive verses about God and Jesus in the bible that people can accept them both on those terms alone.  The bible says God is love and also that there is no fear in love.  Therefore, there should be no fear in loving God and living a Christian life.  If that is as far as people want to go, there doesn't seem to be any harm in doing so - there are only benefits, one of which is freedom from needing to have an obedient-slave-to-god mentality.  I don't know exactly where salvation comes into play here though. 

I started this thread in this forum because of its name.  I see the whole of scripture shows that Yahweh is not a good god.  Any supposed benefits attributed to him come at a very high price, and that is why I now speak out when people say he is good. When you live with an abusive, angry, authoritative and vengeful partner, it's not wise to live in denial or say you have to take the bad along with the good.  You leave that partner and look for one that is safer and healthier.

One does not need this god of the bible to live a loving, meaningful and peaceful life.

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

I view Gen 2 and 3 as allegorical illustrating freedom of choice between good and evil that is available to every living soul.

Does that freedom of choice between good and evil also apply to God who chose to set up evil in the first place? BTW, you didn't answer my question: "So now, what is the real reason for the "wickedness" in mankind and the authority and power of the devil and his spirit followers and the need for a messiah as described in the rest of the bible?"

You most certainly are interpreting it in a fundamentalist sense from my perspective.

What else would you determine to be allegorical in the bible?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life?

1 Cor 15: 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming?

1 Thess 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord? 

 

Faith means different things in the Bible I think most count 5 usages.

Bible Hub gives the following usages for the Greek word pistis: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.  Is there one of these usages that does not involve trust?  The definitions of each would say the answer is no.

The idea of devil spirits is upsetting.  Having spiritual causes of illnesses is upsetting.  Mental illnesses which can look like devil spirits are upsetting.  Being sick is upsetting.  Cancer and chemo is upsetting.  VP said cancer was a devil spirit.  Then he died of it.

What .... doctrine are you talking about?  Those records in the gospels are Jesus healing a couple kids by removing a spiritual cause of the illness?

I'm confused.  Are you saying by way of your questions that you believe the child in Mark 9 and Luke 9 did have an unclean or dumb and deaf spirit?  If so, this contradicts your previous comment of "some idiot who is blabbing about devil spirits in a medical situation."

So healing the kids was ....?  

Again, I'm confused.  Is your question referring to Jesus's healing of the child by casting out the spirit in him? 

Dang that is real cynical.  Not a view I want to share at all.

Since you did not finish the question, I have no clue as to what you think was cynical?  One more thing...if you are insinuating that I think healing kids is wrong, then that is some real gaslighting you're doing there Chockfull! 

I asked quite a few questions if you are inclined to answer any of them. 

11 hours ago, waysider said:

What if you knew her and found her dead on the ground?

 

Tin soldiers and Nixon coming
We're finally on our own
This summer I hear the drumming
Four dead in Ohio

 

Gotta get down to it, soldiers are cutting us down
Should have been gone long ago
What if you knew her and found her dead on the ground
How can you run when you know?

 

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, chockfull said:

 

But to you He is “an unloving Father” because of how you interpret Gen 2 & 3 and are stuck on VPW believing fantasy and some idiot who is blabbing about devil spirits in a medical situation.

 

1) I did not give an interpretation of Gen 2 & 3.  I referred to them exactly how they were written.  Would you, as a loving father, simply let your perfect child who has no knowledge of evil nor of the existence of a cunning and evil arch-enemy of yours deal with such a creature on her own, knowing that she would be deceived by his craftiness?  Would you not correct her before she went to your other child and offered him the forbidden fruit you had placed in their home?  Would the matter of testing their obedience to you supersede the you knew would happen after they ate the fruit? 

The story makes no sense as I think you know, but millions of people still believe it is how sin entered the world.  So now, what is the real reason for the "wickedness" in mankind and the authority and power of the devil and his spirit followers and the need for a messiah as described in the rest of the bible?

2) Concerning the rest of your sentence: 

I was not stuck on vpw's law of believing.  I was stuck on trusting God.  There is a difference - the former is a false doctrine and the latter is scriptural knowing that the word "faith," used over 200 times in the bible, means trust. 

The devil spirits I connected with my grandson were not because of some idiot who was blabbing about them in a medical situation.  Even though I had doubts concerning the story my friend shared with me, it was the talk of devil spirits that was upsetting.  I had always been that way when reading about them in the bible, especially the one story about Jesus casting a devil spirit out of a child.  That one did come to my mind because of what was happening in my grandson’s life with his non-verbal autism and seizures.

Mark 9:17And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb (mute, speechless) spirit; 18And wheresoever he takes him, he tears (seizes) him: and he foams, and gnashes with his teeth, and pines (withers, stiffens) away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.

Luke 9:38And, behold, a man of the company cried out, saying, Master, I beseech thee, look upon my son: for he is mine only child. 39And, lo, a spirit takes him, and he suddenly cries out; and it tears (convulses) him that he foams again, and bruising him hardly departs from him.

Remember, I had not began deconverting during this time.  And even now, just a month after realizing there are no such things as devil spirits, I still cried while reading these verses before copying them into this post.  This bulls hit doctrine from the bible is evil and very harmful. 

23 hours ago, Charity said:

**My reply to your comment won't come up when I clicked on to quote it, so I copied and pasted it instead.  Your words are in black, mine are in blue.**

Hebrews 11:6 - I mean is this just common logic ?  If you don’t believe in a magical character how would you possibly try to please a magical character?

Look deeper: the verse is about more than just believing God exists.  You must believe who this God is.  He IS a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 

- vs 4-7 is a list of how God rewarded people because they had pleased him, meaning they obeyed him.  That is who this God that we believe exists is.  He is also the God that cursed and killed those who did not obey him?  It's written throughout the OT and is foretold to happen in Revelation.
 

James 1:5-6 ask God for wisdom

If you don’t believe in a God why would you ever ask Him for wisdom?  Again rocket science 101.

Kind of a snarky remark, don't you think?  You are misinterpreting what I wrote.  What about you Chockfull - has God always given you wisdom when you asked?  After asking, have you always heard that still small voice to guide you through a confusing, difficult time?  If not, why do you think that was?  If God always has, why do you think that was?

And now that you don’t believe in God you are saying making basic logical statements shows an unloving God?

For many years, I did believe he was a loving God and that all the problems in the world were because of those who were rejecting God, believing wrong doctrine, or not trusting him enough, all of which tied his hands behind his back and allowed Satan to cause havoc.  I no longer believe in a loving God if Genesis 2 & 3 are true and if they're not, then why believe anything written afterward about Lucifer becoming the god of this world and about how wicked mankind became and that a promised messiah was necessary to save us from our wickedness.

What rock and what hard place is it that you find yourself in either way?

I explained it in my post, whether you accept it or not is your choice.  Question:  how many people were between a rock and a hard place because of the law of believing?  The evil of that doctrine was how it focused on one's ability to believe which lead to feelings of guilt.  Trusting God, however, is right because the focus is now on how faithful and powerful God is so we are free from feelings of guilt.  It's all in God's hands now.  Well, God's hands are still tied if we aren't trusting him enough (meaning without having any doubt).

Want some more rocket science 101?

If you  never read the Bible you won’t understand the Bible.

If you read the Bible and don’t believe in a God it probably isn’t going to be that interesting and you probably won’t read it much.

My post was about bible-believing Christians so your two statements above are irrelevant.

But a fundamentalist, hand in a glove absolutist?  Yeah that’s what wrecks the Bible and any inspirational truth.  And places believers in bondage.  And drives them away completely.

Fundamentalist is a person who believes in the strict, literal interpretation of scripture.  Do you take Eph 3:20 literally? Or the rapture, great tribulation, Armageddon, the final judgment and the lake of fire? Who decides what's literal or not and what are their decisions based on?

2 hours ago, chockfull said:

What I find ironic is someone with no belief in any inspiration in scripture telling me to “look deeper” into scripture.

For the purpose of discussion on GSC or with anyone else, I still use scripture to explain my reason for deconverting.  I asked you to look deeper into Heb 11:6 because you had only referred to the first half of the verse in your reply - not the second half.

No my remark is not snarky it is in the practical realm.

The reason I felt your reply (which included the remark "rocket science 101" was snarky was because you had misinterpreted what I had said in my two posts to Rocky.  My references to Heb 11:6 and James 1:5-6 were not about how they affected me but how they affected believers. 

What is pleasing God?  It varies per individual but to me it involves seeking out a virtuous life.  I like my life better seeking out virtue than I do trying to parse over some VPW regurgitation of manifestations in a book he stole or “the law of believing” which actually I think we’ve shown to have spiritualist origins here on GSC.

I quoted verses that showed God's definition of pleasing him.  Vs 4: By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain. Vs 5 By faith Enoch...pleased God (Gen 5:22 And Enoch walked with God).  Vs 7 By faith Noah...prepared an ark.  If you want to define pleasing God some other way than complete obedience to him that's fine but don't fault me for quoting scripture to define it.

Does God “always” provide wisdom when I ask?  I think so, whether it is in the form of the word of a friend, an idea, an observation about nature, a secular writing striking me in a way, or about a hundred other practical ways I could mention.

You are free to give God credit when you find wisdom in the words of men but again, my post was about what the bible says.  James 1:5 says "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all men liberally..."  (1 Cor 3:19, Pro 2:6)

Yeah I get it.  It’s always the hypocrites that drive people away from churches and they are everywhere.

No you don't get it - there are biblical reasons that drive people away from God and there are plenty of them in scripture.

But what do you want to build in your life?  Tearing down idols is only half of a renovation project.

Please specify one idol you think I have torn down.  I have torn down verses I no longer believe so if you think the bible is an idol, then I guess you're right.

38 minutes ago, cman said:

you hang on to these church teachings as if they are the truth, are they? or are they the anchor that keeps you asleep, sleeping comfortably in your mind-set

here is another

"If you believe it will work out,
you'll see opportunities.
If you believe it won't,
you will see obstacles."
~Wayne Dyer…

and not to put you down in any way, it's just the way it is

I don't see you putting me down in your posts.  I think the anchor that helps me sleep now is being thankful for what I have, especially my family.

22 minutes ago, cman said:

These are the things Jesus taught. It, the spirit, is what he was talking about...clearly. Instead of the epistles to be read all the time, it is better to read the gospels and proverbs, psalms....to see what they were seeing....

For a while, I had been reading and hearing from different sources the shocking belief that Paul's epistles were heretical because they contradicted what Jesus taught in the gospel.  I thought this was because these people did not understand the doctrine of the mystery which was hidden in God until it was revealed to Paul and since Jesus was not God, he could not have taught it before his death.  Therefore Paul, by revelation from Jesus Christ, was able to teach who we are and what we have in Christ because the resurrection and ascension of Jesus to the right hand of God had since occurred.

"Truth" is all so subjective.

15 minutes ago, cman said:

I could try to tell you what I see, or rather what I have been shown, but words cannot convey it or convince anyone of it, you have to see it for yourself. And God is always showing everything always, one just has to wake up from the sleep we have been seduced into. Cause the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak, scared of letting go.

Thanks cman for the post.  I don't believe that God is always showing everything always.  That there are so many denominations teaching totally different things on many different topics is a sign of mass confusion when it comes to understanding God.  As for the flesh (meaning the sin nature in everyone) being weak and fearful, I guess it's true if one believes it exists.     

1 minute ago, cman said:

you can find some answers in Christian doctrines and bible readings, maybe in some church dogma....

the only true satisfying answers are from Christ in you

a quote I saw this morning from "Charter for Compassion" 

"Your soul,
that inner quiet space,
is yours to consult.
It will always guide you
in the right direction."
~Wayne Dyer

You make a good point.  There are words of wisdom in the bible amongst the many harmful concepts it proclaims.  Some who have deconverted continue to read the bible from a fictional viewpoint and look for what lessons might be hidden in the myths.  I'm not at that place though.

It's a beautiful quote you shared.  Biblically, it would be refuted by Jeremiah 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:"  (See also Rom 3:10-18 and Gal 5:19-21)

It's a terrible thing to teach children how wicked they are because of having a sin nature.  There seems to be little or nothing written in the bible about the goodness of people apart from God being in their lives.  We know this is not true!  Are humans perfect - no.  But it is not because of an "original sin" that was passed on to us because of a mythical Adam and Eve story in Genesis.

I think Dyer's quote about the soul directing you in the right direction is wise when you believe in an inherit worth in all people and a desire to see good manifested in your life. 

14 hours ago, waysider said:

Sounds more like finding a hobby.

Maybe that's what Christianity is.

The weird and disconcerting thing about deconverting is realizing that one was never born again in the first place.  So what was going on then all those years when I believed I was a Christian?  The speaking in tongues - it was always the same sounds unless I purposefully "moved my lips" differently as in an excellor session.  The love of the word - it was genuine partly because I chose not to focus on the parts that were disturbing or didn't make sense and partly because of the positive parts about love, peace, joy, hope, etc.  The fellowship of like-minded people - it was wonderful like it would be for any group which shared the same beliefs or interests. 

What about the times I believed God did answer my prayers or blessed me - would they have happened even if I didn't believe in God at the time?  When each surgery on my grandson was successful, was it solely because of the skilled doctors and nurses?  Or when I got a much-needed job, was it solely because I happened to be the best candidate?  When my mother, heavily medicated because of her final days of lung cancer, stopped having hallucinations or nightmares during the night so she no longer needed to be restrained, was it solely because I was there holding her hand? 

For these situations and all the others, they very well could have happened without God's intervention.  Good things and bad things happen in life to everyone - believer or non-believer; a fact that has nothing to do with believing God makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

I'm aware of the testimonies of others who believe miracles have happened in their lives, and I am not going to deny they were indeed miracles.  I speak only about my life.  I also know of verses that contradict my way of thinking as well as condemn them, but they're not holding water for me anymore.  However, for those who are hanging onto their Christian beliefs by a thread out of fear, seeing life outside of that religious paradigm can help them let go of that fear and those beliefs.

1 hour ago, oldiesman said:

As the song goes "We'll understand it, all by-and-by".  Faith helps overcome the mysteries.

That's what I kept hearing when I would ask Christians about the trinity. 

"Farther Along" - sang it all the time in fellowships.  Encourages Christians to remain faithful, but it also discourages them from asking questions.

10 minutes ago, Rocky said:

I thought that was supposed to be Wierwille? 

His decisions were private interpretation. I'm reasonably convinced of that.

He may have started out with good intentions. But the love of money IS the root of all evil, right?

Another aspect of fundamentalism is the belief in the historical accuracy and inerrancy of the Bible.  I'm sure vpw had a quote or slogan about this that isn't coming to mind at the moment.  

8 minutes ago, waysider said:

I'm not sure why you directed that at me, but it's OK. I don't mind.

Last summer, through no fault of my own, I was injured in a catastrophic car accident. My life was changed forever. I'll never be the same person I was. Was there a still, small voice I missed?  I'm not going to beat myself up wondering.

I am sorry Waysider.  It took me a while to finish that post, and I had forgotten in the meantime who had sent it.  I'll go and edit it now.

I remember you sharing about your accident on GSC, and I know it took you a while to be well enough to come back on.  Welcome back - I missed your humour.

On 4/14/2024 at 9:55 PM, Junior Corps Surviver said:

Thanks for the replies. Growing up in this cult really did a number on me. I was afraid to ask questions and instead of thinkign that was not OK, I thought I was being decieved by Satan and it was him who was putting the questions in my mind. Think about being 9 years old and thinkign Satan himself is weaponizing your thoughts as a way to attack the Way. It's soul crushing. I just wanted the devil to leave me alone. In reality the devil had no interest in me at all. ugh

It's horrible that you had that placed on your shoulders at such a young age.  I have listened to other adults share about their lives as kids and living with a deep fear of Satan, not knowing for sure if they're saved or not, being left behind when the rapture occurs, of going to hell.  If whatever a parent teaches their child about God causes them to live with such fear, it is a form of child abuse. 

I think this is an interesting quote from the book "The Argument Against God:" It would, though, be far better if religious doctrines and systems were not taught to people until they had attained maturity.  If this were the case, how many would subscribe to a religion?  Without being given a predisposition through childhood indoctrination to think there might be something in one of the many and conflicting religious beliefs on offer, the likely answer would surely be: not very many."

4 hours ago, chockfull said:

I don’t read that at all in those verses.

Hebrews 11:6 - I mean is this just common logic ?  If you don’t believe in a magical character how would you possibly try to please a magical character?

Look deeper: the verse is about more than just believing God exists.  You must believe who this God is.  He IS a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 

- vs 4-7 is a list of how God rewarded people because they had pleased him, meaning they obeyed him.  That is who this God that we believe exists is.  He is also the God that cursed and killed those who did not obey him?  It's written throughout the OT and is foretold to happen in Revelation.
 

James 1:5-6 ask God for wisdom

If you don’t believe in a God why would you ever ask Him for wisdom?  Again rocket science 101.

Kind of a snarky remark, don't you think?  You are misinterpreting what I wrote.  What about you Chockfull - has God always given you wisdom when you asked?  After asking, have you always heard that still small voice to guide you through a confusing, difficult time?  If not, why do you think that was?  If God always has, why do you think that was?

And now that you don’t believe in God you are saying making basic logical statements shows an unloving God?

For many years, I did believe he was a loving God and that all the problems in the world were because of those who were rejecting God, believing wrong doctrine, or not trusting him enough, all of which tied his hands behind his back and allowed Satan to cause havoc.  I no longer believe in a loving God if Genesis 2 & 3 are true and if they're not, then why believe anything written afterward about Lucifer becoming the god of this world and about how wicked mankind became and that a promised messiah was necessary to save us from our wickedness.

What rock and what hard place is it that you find yourself in either way?

I explained it in my post, whether you accept it or not is your choice.  Question:  how many people were between a rock and a hard place because of the law of believing?  The evil of that doctrine was how it focused on one's ability to believe which lead to feelings of guilt.  Trusting God, however, is right because the focus is now on how faithful and powerful God is so we are free from feelings of guilt.  It's all in God's hands now.  Well, God's hands are still tied if we aren't trusting him enough (meaning without having any doubt).

Want some more rocket science 101?

If you  never read the Bible you won’t understand the Bible.

If you read the Bible and don’t believe in a God it probably isn’t going to be that interesting and you probably won’t read it much.

My post was about bible-believing Christians so your two statements above are irrelevant.

But a fundamentalist, hand in a glove absolutist?  Yeah that’s what wrecks the Bible and any inspirational truth.  And places believers in bondage.  And drives them away completely.

Fundamentalist is a person who believes in the strict, literal interpretation of scripture.  Do you take Eph 3:20 literally? Or the rapture, great tribulation, Armageddon, the final judgment and the lake of fire? Who decides what's literal or not and what are their decisions based on?

 

3 hours ago, Rocky said:

How do we even know that's actually what God intended to "demand" or commend, or even expect? 

Hebrews 11:6 NIV

6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

I don't see that demand in the verse above.

 

 Hebrews 11:6 NIV

6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

I underlined the words which I believe shows that God expects believers to have absolute certainty in him and in the "word" he has given them. 

It doesn't matter whether we agree on what this verse is saying.  The point of my post was to show the dilemma that bible-believing Christians find themselves in when it comes to God.  Unless there is a verse that proves differently, there is no room for uncertainty when it comes to him. 

Being between a rock and a hard place happens because even when a Christian is certain that God exists and therefore earnestly seeks this all-powerful and all-loving God in a time of need, it is never certain that he will show up and reward you for the trust you placed in him.  (Apparently there are legal loopholes attached to his promises.)  In other words, God expects certainty from believers when all the while, he is an uncertain God. 

It's one of the main reason why I think this concept of god as shown in the bible was thought up by men for whatever reason. 

Here's to peace (an alternative for beer in my case)