Charity

3 minutes ago, oldiesman said:

Christian

Yes, but what is faith?  Where does faith come in when it comes to her question - "My daughter’s 36 now and she’s schizophrenic and if God is going to bless me with a miracle baby then why did he give her schizophrenia – what kind of god would do that?"

1 hour ago, oldiesman said:

"you lost your faith in God along the way... let me help you get it back I am willing if you want my help..."

Thank you for your reply oldiesman.  What would you tell her faith is?

8 hours ago, oldiesman said:

Watched the video clip.     As to the gentleman who said " 'F' God ", I was wondering if he has any fear of eternal hell or any reservations, or otherwise willing to accept living eternally without God; if it comes to that.    I would be afraid.   His outlook seems as bad as one can get.   

I think it's unfortunate that you chose to focus on those two words instead of the issues around "believing" that the video was about.  

Marie was in the Way for 15 years.  She eventually came to realize, like the dozens of posters on GSC, that it was a cult.  You know then, oldiesman, that she was taught the false and harmful "law of believing" dogma.  Could you not have related to her confusion about why God would "bless" her with children because of her believing and then later on "give" her daughter schizophrenia.  Having the required faith to get answers to prayers is definitely a "hit or miss" practice where God gets the credit for the supposed hits and believers get the blame for the obvious misses. 

Did your heart ache when she said, "For so long in my life, I sought God and I tried to be a godly wife and a woman of God and then after I left the cult, I left Christianity as a whole and now it’s like, I sought to have the truth and to know the truth when I was in the groups and I find that I’m back at that thing – I want to know the truth again, and I want to say I’m living my life honestly and not living in an illusion, I guess."

If she was talking to you, oldiesman, what would you have said to her?

6 hours ago, oldiesman said:

Watched the video clip.     As to the gentleman who said " 'F' God ", I was wondering if he has any fear of eternal hell or any reservations, or otherwise willing to accept living eternally without God; if it comes to that.    I would be afraid.   His outlook seems as bad as one can get.   

Do you really think that fear of going to hell is a good reason to worship the god who is threatening to send you there if you don't love him?

13 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Right. I was attempting to echo that sentiment at the end of my post. One needs to put in the work and be accountable. Nobody can do it by themselves, but no one can else can do it for you.

Thank you for your post.  I understand the fear and pain associated with alcoholism.  My father was an alcoholic for decades.  Often, he would become abusive, even violent towards my mother.  Her priest told her this was her burden to bear and that she'd receive her reward in heaven (f$ck that sh$t).  One year, in his late sixties, he had a heart attack and became a grandfather for the first time.  (He would love sitting in his rocking chair with my infant son asleep on his big belly.)  He just stopped his drinking that year.

My father never talked about his alcoholism after that, and I regret not asking him about it so I could understand what it was like for him.  His strong Catholic faith was never enough to help him even though I know he sincerely felt remorse and wanted to stop.  It was more likely his thankfulness for getting a second chance at life and the comfort from loving his newborn grandson that helped him.  I still get emotional thinking about it.

On 3/21/2025 at 11:24 AM, Raf said:

This idea of giving God the glory when it's not due Him is something I've thought of often. I struggle to articulate it, but I've come to call it Dumbo's feather. In  the Disney movie, Dumbo is led to believe that the feather is magic and enables him to fly. He doesn't find out until the climax that it wasn't the feather at all. The ability was his, without the feather.

I think of that when people say they never could have given up their addiction without God, they never could have straightened out their lives without the power of Jesus through the Holy Spirt, they never could have quit smoking, drinking, drugging, carousing if not for Him.

I stay silent when they say such things, because I know it would be easy for them to fall back into their old habits if their thinking were to change too radically. At the same time, I am remarkably proud of these people because I know there is no magic in the feather. You beat drugs! You beat alcohol! You transformed your life! I am so proud of you! And then you give the glory to the feather.

I guess. Go ahead.

But I know.

Dumbo Ending

"The magic feather was just a gag..."

On 3/21/2025 at 11:24 AM, Raf said:

This idea of giving God the glory when it's not due Him is something I've thought of often. I struggle to articulate it, but I've come to call it Dumbo's feather. In  the Disney movie, Dumbo is led to believe that the feather is magic and enables him to fly. He doesn't find out until the climax that it wasn't the feather at all. The ability was his, without the feather.

I think of that when people say they never could have given up their addiction without God, they never could have straightened out their lives without the power of Jesus through the Holy Spirt, they never could have quit smoking, drinking, drugging, carousing if not for Him.

I stay silent when they say such things, because I know it would be easy for them to fall back into their old habits if their thinking were to change too radically. At the same time, I am remarkably proud of these people because I know there is no magic in the feather. You beat drugs! You beat alcohol! You transformed your life! I am so proud of you! And then you give the glory to the feather.

I guess. Go ahead.

But I know.

22 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Right. When it's life or death, if a feather is required for life, let it be a feather.

The language of the Twelve Steps is "a Power greater than ourselves.. God as we understood Him."

The first time I got sober I was 21. Newbies were sometimes reassured that God could be a chair or a feather or whatever. That didn't make much sense to me, but we were also advised to "fake it until we made it." (I was in no position to judge.) At the time, I was deep in the study of non-theistic Eastern thought, so God was neither conceptual nor personal nor a box-bound, barn-jumping cookie Nazi, as I was later "taught."

The Twelve Steps requires work. Honest, fearless, humble, personal, introspective work. Sobriety, like democracy, requires hard work to maintain. A feather without work is dead.

I went to meetings for a year or two. As it has been said of TWI, I was glad to get in, I was glad to get out.

I agree with what both of you are saying – if it’s working, it doesn’t need fixing.

However, if God, as the chosen higher power, isn’t working and the “why” questions are going unanswered or unsatisfactory/irrational/condemning answers are being given then suggesting letting go of that “feather” for a more healthier one can be helpful.  One that promotes personal autonomy, agency, and authenticity such as what Raf refers to at the end of his post. 

2 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

I don't know why I am reminded of this, but somehow, someway, I think it's relevant...

Lately my som has had lots of questions about why the world is burning and about claims people make and about the manifestation of stupidity all around him. Kids at school regurgitating what they hear at home. His mom and her cult regurgitating what they hear in their echo chamber of mmmph. And he feels baited and tested and awkward.

I tell him it's perfectly ok to say, "I don't know." Especially if you don't. That there is a certain power and liberty and freedom in letting go. That there is a deep knowing in the acceptance of not knowing.

I tell him not everyone really cares about finding out if someone really can or cannot jump over a barn. I tell him most people just want to beleeve. To find out if someone is worth having a conversation with, ask them, "If you were wrong about xyz, would you want to know?"

If the answer is, "But I'm not wrong," walk away.

It warmed my heart just to see you write "my son has had a lot of questions." 

What's also interesting about the video is you can see that Marie is in the process of deconstructing but may also be heading towards deconverting.  

She says, "For so long in my life, I sought God and I tried to be a godly wife and a woman of God and then after I left the cult [meaning The Way], I left Christianity as a whole and now it’s like; I sought to have the truth and to know the truth when I was in the groups, and I find that I’m back at that thing – I want to know the truth again, and I want to say I’m living my life honestly and not living in an illusion, I guess."

It reminds me of the 3 questions the host of The Atheist Experience often ask of their callers - What do you believe?  Why do you believe it?  Do you care if it's true or not?

It's almost impossible for those who believe in a god to say they don't know why something incredibly unlikely happened.  They are taught to automatically call it a miracle.   This can be true whether they believe in a Christian god or a Hindu one.  As a Roman Catholic, my mother used to always believe the virgin mother Mary or a specific saint answered her prayers.

I look back at the time my car hydroplaned and swerved in front of an 18 wheeler (which I had just passed) and then immediately went back again into my own lane.  It happened so fast, I'm not even sure if that was what really happened or just what really seemed to have happened. but I immediately believed it was a miracle of God.  If I had not been a "believer," I would have said I don't know how it happened, only that I'm thankful that it did. Later on, I learned that if you turn your wheel away from the skid while you're riding the water, when the tire hits the road again, your car will go in that direction.  

Could it not be enlightening to ask Christians for evidence when they claim something that happened was from God?  I'm usually not an AI Overview fan, but I do appreciate this one based on the question I googled.

Giving god the glory without evidence it was from god

The woman says right away that she was in The Way for 15 years before leaving.  She is calling in because her son is now an atheist, and she has some questions.  Two important events in her life have to do with her belief in God: one is how she became pregnant after being told she physically could not for medical reasons and the other is her adult daughter being diagnosed with schizophrenia. 

I'm going to listen to it again but my initial thoughts are that the host gave some rational responses to her questions and doubts.

"I Can't Explain My Past Without God!?"

The video is 17 minutes long and she does give a name at one point.

1 hour ago, Rocky said:

That's a smack in the face. AKA a non-apology. 

Are you really saying you don't have time for people to honestly respond to what you post?

I'll PM my reply.

3 minutes ago, Rocky said:

I wince at your use of the word "only." But yes, to manipulate how a society is to live, one factor is to somehow cause it to misunderstand history. 

I see what you mean as the definition of only is "no one or nothing more besides; solely or exclusively."  My apologies for causing you a moment of discomfort - I hope you recovered quickly

25 minutes ago, Rocky said:

A key benefit you will receive by reading these letters: melting the mask off of the face of TWI's founder. I think of a quote from Soren Kierkegaard: Life can only be understood looking backwards; But it must be lived forwards.

You'll be able to understand much more about Victor Wierwille and his cult by reading these letters.

I love the quote Rocky.  So to manipulate how life should be lived going forward, one only needs to inaccurately rewrite history.  But who would dare to do such a thing?

7 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

It's the Doctrinal forum. Everyone has an opinion. Almost everyone is right and almost everyone else is wrong. Me and you, us and them. Many are here to "teach" - because rewards and demerits and all that. But some good discussions are to be had, also.

It's no different than the earliest incarnations of the Church in the first and second centuries.

 

You’re right.  I have sent revvel a post explaining my previous comment regarding his intentions regarding this thread.  It’s an “in-my-opinion” post, and I will leave it at that.

Your sentence highlighted above is a good one.  The way vp talked about wanting to teach the word like it hadn’t been taught since the first century led me to believe everything was perfectly accurate and agreed upon back then.  It was a real eye-opener to realize it was anything but and that the contents of the bible took centuries to be decided upon because of all the disagreements.  And even then, it was anything close to being perfectly accurate and continues to be so disagreed upon today.

On 3/2/2025 at 6:33 AM, revvel said:

2.      Lens: The Mystery

Within this lens—of Christ’s divine revelation—there is another lens given to us by Christ on how to view Genesis to Revelation: The Mystery.

[W]e speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age knew it. For had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. (1 Cor. 2:7, 8)

From Genesis to the Gospel of John, God had hidden a mystery—in Scriptures given prior to the Crucifixion.

Could Christ have revealed the mystery prior to the Crucifixion? No… of course not.

After the Resurrection/Ascension, Christ could reveal the mystery—and He did. That is the lens by which to view the Book of Acts to the Book of Revelation—while looking back at the rest of the Bible, including the Parable of the 10 Virgins.

 

On 3/2/2025 at 5:16 PM, Charity said:

What evidence is there that Jesus knew about the mystery before his crucifixion? 

On 3/2/2025 at 9:42 PM, revvel said:

Charity: Have you ever asked this question before this thread?

If so, what response did you get?

 

I realize now that I misread what you wrote about Christ knowing the mystery before the crucifixion.  You specifically stated he did not (as shown above in blue font).  How "God had hidden a mystery—in Scriptures given prior to the Crucifixion" (also highlighted in blue above) is what you are endeavouring to show through this thread.  I conflated your two ideas into one. 

On 3/1/2025 at 4:15 PM, revvel said:

Charity,

I like the way you think... forward thinking.

When we get to the witness of Christ & the Fig Tree parable/prophecy, you can draw your own conclusions. You seem smart enough to do so.

Peace.

revvel

On 3/2/2025 at 11:55 PM, Charity said:

I don't know when or where he revealed his identity on GSC (a link would be helpful), so it was still a secret to me.  I think it does matter because is he here for a discussion or simply to teach his doctrine found in his books and on his website?  I began to feel in was the latter after reading more of his posts and replies, so I decided to look him up here which lead to his post with his website which led directly to William Ayles.  

I don't know what the GSC rules say about this matter, but for me personally, I feel like he is misrepresenting himself.

 

revvel, concerning the last post I wrote before GSC went down (see above), I want to personally address my issues with this thread.

I do not feel like you want a discussion as your replies to posts in general have often been minimal in content with a “wait and see what great thing I will share next  – you’ll be amazed” tone of voice.  I find that to be a bit presumptuous on your part - it sounds like something a salesman would say to get you to want to buy their product.  And then sure enough, a post with scriptures and your commentaries would follow.

Your specific approach to answering my questions have sounded condescending and/or patronizing as well.  For example, “You continue to demonstrate the depth of your intellect. Yet another excellent question. Patience, Charity, Patience... we'll get there.”  I was a teacher before I retired and learned it was best to let the students guide the lesson with their questions instead of giving them a pat on the head for asking them and then continue to follow an inflexible series of lesson I had planned.

While I do like discussing scripture and am learning to be use the Socratic method when doing so, I found this thread personally frustrating.  I will, however, answer the question you did ask me next.

I've got to say the offer sounds pretty interesting especially if you're "young in the word" and in the 18-25 age bracket.  The problem is that it's most likely going to be twi's opportunity to push the benefits of signing up for more "service" such as the ambassador and corps program.  Their goal is always a "life-time commitment" to them. 

31 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Rewording the question won't change the fact that he chose to reveal his own identity here a few years ago. It's not a secret because he himself made it public. I noticed the same before you asked.

Of course, he doesn't have to answer because he already has.

Now that you know, does it really matter?

 

I don't know when or where he revealed his identity on GSC (a link would be helpful), so it was still a secret to me.  I think it does matter because is he here for a discussion or simply to teach his doctrine found in his books and on his website?  I began to feel in was the latter after reading more of his posts and replies, so I decided to look him up here which lead to his post with his website which led directly to William Ayles.  

I don't know what the GSC rules say about this matter, but for me personally, I feel like he is misrepresenting himself.

4 minutes ago, Raf said:

Revvel:

You may answer that if ypu choose, but if you choose nit to, that's ok too.

Thanks Raf - I wasn't thinking of the confidentiality that is behind the names we give ourselves on GSC).  I will reword my question to Revvel.

On your thread The Torah to Revelation, you write, "The entire book can be read online on my website: www.thetimeline.org"

Are you William Ayles who wrote "The Mystery of God?"

10 hours ago, Raf said:

* Jupiter is Zeus. Neptune is Poseidon. Mercury is Hermes. Yahweh is Baal.

 

When YHWH appropriated Baal’s praise  (6-minute video by Dan McClellan)

Interesting research when one doesn't rely only on the biblical ancient history.

10 hours ago, revvel said:

2.      Lens: The Mystery

Within this lens—of Christ’s divine revelation—there is another lens given to us by Christ on how to view Genesis to Revelation: The Mystery.

[W]e speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age knew it. For had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. (1 Cor. 2:7, 8)

From Genesis to the Gospel of John, God had hidden a mystery—in Scriptures given prior to the Crucifixion.

Could Christ have revealed the mystery prior to the Crucifixion? No… of course not.

After the Resurrection/Ascension, Christ could reveal the mystery—and He did. That is the lens by which to view the Book of Acts to the Book of Revelation—while looking back at the rest of the Bible, including the Parable of the 10 Virgins.

Christ handed us the key to unlock prophecies from The Torah to the Book of Revelation: The Mystery.

Romans 16

*Now to Him who has power to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret for long ages past, but now is revealed by the prophetic Scriptures according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all the Gentiles for the obedience of faith, to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Rom. 16:25-27)

The revelation of the mystery in Romans: The Church & Israel.

Next: The revelation of the mystery: Israel.

Peace.

revvel

What evidence is there that Jesus knew about the mystery before his crucifixion? 

23 hours ago, revvel said:

Charity,

I like the way you think... forward thinking.

When we get to the witness of Christ & the Fig Tree parable/prophecy, you can draw your own conclusions. You seem smart enough to do so.

Peace.

revvel

 

 

"...draw your own conclusions."

Well, I hope it will explain why both Jesus and Paul believed the end time would come within their lifetime and when it didn't, Peter had to give an explanation to keep the hope going - "But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."  Where is there any evidence of this being true in scripture other than Peter declaring it?

My conclusion thus far is that the hope of Christ's return and all the great stuff that is promised to come afterwards is a pipe dream. 

21 hours ago, Raf said:

* The best evidence AGAINST Jesus existing if Paul's insistence that he did not learn the gospel from the apostles. It's just not plausible, even if you take revelation into account (which is not required to answer the "did he exist" question), that Paul had a chance to talk to the followers of Jesus' earthly ministry and did not recognize them as an authority on what the Lord taught. I'm sorry, what? Paul appears completely unaware of the betrayal of Judas, and his epistles never quote Jesus. He does not mention the empty tomb at all, and he never refers to Jesus being executed by the Romans at the behest of the Jews. He never refers to the sham trial or the ascension, and he never refers to Jesus "second coming" or "return," but rather of his "presence." 

 

Thanks for the thread Raf.  Concerning the above, what would you say about 1 Cor 11:23 where Paul makes a possible reference to Judas.  He writes, "For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread?"  Why would Paul claim Jesus revealed a "last supper" with bread and wine to him but not any of the other things you mention above?

Paul might have influenced by the Greek myth of Dionysus - it's not a one-one connection but the idea of drinking wine and eating raw meat was associated with him.