Charity

Referencing back to my previous posts on forgiveness, here is what Jesus taught in Luke 17:3-4

3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he trespasses against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

In vs 3, the need to admonish the believer as to what action against you was sinful is noteworthy. The offender is then in the position to make a choice as to whether to repent or not and if they do, then we are to forgive them.

The word "repent" means "to change one's mind or purpose."  

Verse 4 brings different scenarios to my mind, but I'll let the verse speak for itself.

Obviously, in twi, confronting leaders was worthy of condemnation and repentance was not a practice you saw modelled by leaders, yet followers were expected to be unconditionally forgiving.  

4 hours ago, OldSkool said:

I dont know about you being a troll or not and dont really care. However, there is a simple solution to said problem of former TWI leaders when it comes to wierwille and his issues. Honesty. Just admit the man was a con and some of the things he taught are true and Biblical. Repudiate the lies and distance oneself from his sins. Its not feasible to expect everyone to sit around in sack cloth and ashes in memory of wierwille. Of the three offshoots  mentioned STFI, TLTF, and CFF all three groups top leaders were the ones who told me to forgive and forget wierwille's sins and dont throw out the baby with the bath water. I dont know if these guys take notes from each other, or share the same playbook. Their last names were Gallagher, Lynn, and Guigou. All said the same thing to me. My healing depended on forgiving the way international and those who wronged me. And again, utter BS. My healing depended on my repentance and asking forgiveness for myself for being involved with a false prophet and spreading his lies. Thats where my freedom came from. Ive long since forgiven all things TWI and it made little difference in my day to day life. What made all the difference was accepting peace with my creator. God almighty, which many of you now say doesnt exist.

When you forgave all things TWI, do you think God forgave all their offences against you as well?  

The reason I'm asking OldSkool is that often the word "forgive" is used when we mean we have stopped feeling resentment against the offender which is different from "absolving" someone of any blame, guilt or responsibility for their wrongdoings. 

34 minutes ago, Stayed Too Long said:

Allow me to say this, even though Chockfull has proclaimed to the internet I have no right to express myself because of my non belief in God, thus I am just trolling along on GSC. 

Any @sshat leader who was in TWI and is currently operating an offshoot group, should immediately close up shop until they condemn the actions of VPW.

Furthermore, any dense jackfoot former follower of VPW, especially those who have held the mantle of leadership, must immediately prostrate themselves before “somebody” and beg forgiveness.

And especially, all those disingenous jackfoot trolls, such as myself, must immediatelly surrender their license to operate a PC, to the internet policing commission, until they can demonstrate a clear understanding that there is a loving God.

 

 

It's obvious you are being facetious here which adds no value to this discussion.  

14 hours ago, cman said:

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

I think forgiving others is directly related to how we know that we are forgiven. In other words, the bigger we see forgiveness for ourselves the bigger we can do it for others.

When I now think back on the ministry leader who approached me with twi's version of approving sexual sin, a person who has never asked me for forgiveness and a person who went on doing the same with another female in the fellowship, this thread hits home for me.  

When I look at Eph 4:22-23, "That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."  as well as verses 31-32, "Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.", these are my thoughts.

- Bitterness, wrath, anger, clamour, evil speaking and all malice are of the old man which is corrupt because of its sin nature.  With these, I can overcome by way of my personal relationship with God and with the power of the new man (i.e., Christ) dwelling in me which after God (in his likeness) is created in righteousness and true holiness.  Also, 2 Cor 1:3 says our God is the God of all comfort and knowing Him brings me healing as well.  

- Being kind and tenderhearted are fruits of the spirit and are what we are told to think on according to Phil 4:8, "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. 

- Forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you is not without a condition according to 1 John 1:9 which is to first confess your sin/wrongdoing.

Concerning my experience with this leader, I am healed of the effects of it because of God and should he ever reach out and asks for forgiveness, I will forgive him.  

16 hours ago, Stayed Too Long said:

Utter BS this: 

I may be proven wrong on this, and it's something new for me that I have not considered before, but I do believe forgiveness always follows a confession of wrongdoing.  This is also seen in the parable of the prodigal son.

Looking at the verses above in light of Matt 18:23-35 (which I quoted in full in my previous post), it says:

33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not everyone his brother their trespasses.

The king had compassion and pity on his servant after the servant requested more time to pay his monetary debt because he was unable to do so at the time.  The fact that the servant did not deny he owed the money or blamed the king for his owing this money is important here.  Plus, the sincerity of the servant's words has to be implied here to make this a righteous parable Jesus was telling.  

When we do not forgive someone who is sincerely admitting their wrong, this angers God because we are not fully appreciating the forgiveness he gives us by way of his son's sacrifice on the cross.

There are ways God can heal us of emotional pain and things we can do when working things out so we can "move forward," but requiring forgiveness of an unrepented offender is not one of them.  Thanks again OldSkool for not beating around the bush on this idea.  

On 9/27/2023 at 2:51 PM, OldSkool said:

There is literally no place in scripture that requires anybody to forgive so the person who was wronged can move on in life...thats utter BS. We shoudnt harbor bitterness or take vengance into our own hands, but forgiveness is given to the one who comitted the offence(s) after they repent and ask for it. Obviously, we can intercede and ask for forgiveness for someone else the same way Christ did with the malefactor or where Christ spoke of those who crucified him saying forgive them for they know not what they do.

Offshoots, and I mean all of them. Offshoots of the way international have a VESTED interest in requiring victims forgive predator victor paul wierwille, et al., because how else can they keep people roped in, giving them money so they can have cushy little jobs at the local home church office?

Jesus himself taught:

Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

5 hours ago, OldSkool said:

The offshoots know dang good and well that victor Paul wierwille had issues as long as train smoke. They knowingly suppress this information on a false pretense of requiring forgiveness from victims when nobody has stepped up to ask forgiveness and make amends. They all do it. Cff, stfi, tltf, etc. It's just as bad as doing the deed because truth is suppressed in favor of an idolatrous lie.

Thank you for calling out those in twi who put the responsibility of forgiveness on the victim when the offender has never repented and asked for it.   

1 John 1:9 clearly says confession of sin is a requirement for God's forgiveness, so why would that requirement be removed for us when dealing with those who have sinned against us. 

I think this parable in Matthew 18 shows this along with other truths as well, and I was wondering what others think about this example Jesus gave of forgiveness.

23Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. 25But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 27Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. 28But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. 29And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 30And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. 31So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. 32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

9 hours ago, penguin2 said:

 

Looks like a year ago lots of countries were encouraged to sing and record this song. There's several versions listed on the Way YouTube channel.

 

Thanks, penguin2. 

On 9/2/2023 at 4:47 PM, waysider said:

Hi everyone. This is waysider. Been a while since I posted. Had an accident on the interstate. I'll be back eventually. Drive safely please. Pay attention in construction zones, please. 

 

 

How are you doing Waysider?

42 minutes ago, penguin2 said:

Except that the lyrics are from HQ way prod. 

 

Hi, what's the name of the song?  I found it hard to hear the words other that the "together" part.

1 hour ago, Nathan_Jr said:

What was the comment?

Penworks can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it was a comment another researcher sort of whispered to her during an important meeting which I think Walter Cummins had called.  The person said that vp wasn't very good with the Greek language.  I can't lay hands on my copy of the book right now, but I remember it was a very unsettling moment for Penworks to hear this about vp and things changed considerably for her concerning twi.  

3 hours ago, Rocky said:

This link captures how I think of art and artistic expression by humans.

https://proactivecreative.com/different-types-of-art/

Excuse my lackadaisical response to your comment "That's the most inauthentic piece of "art!" I may have ever seen."  Concerning the 7 different forms of art, when I was teaching Grade 1, my students learned literature and media arts (which touched on cinema) as part of the Language arts program, as well as dance, drama and visual arts as part of the Arts curriculum. Visual arts included some messy lessons about painting and sculpture which pretty much meant working with plasticine .  (Thank goodness the music section was taught by a qualified music teacher.) That just leaves architectural arts which was covered in our science classes.  God, I miss those times.  It was a lot of fun for me and the kids.

2 hours ago, Rocky said:

No, that's not it.

I was referring to the dance routine by African (American) believers. That was SOOOOOO not what one would reasonably expect from Black people.

It was what the white wayfer dancers did. e.g. this lame nonsense. 

 

Big difference between the group twi showed on their website 81st Anniversary Celebration Updates - The Way International News and Events and this one I found on the internet which I liked for its cultural authenticity.  

22 hours ago, Rocky said:

That's the most inauthentic piece of "art!" I may have ever seen. 

Rocky, are you referring to this?  Is it new?

5 hours ago, annio said:

INteresting!! Have a few Q's here - I remember him telling us that he had travelled various places and talked with various scholars; I think I used to have a few names in my brain but memory fails now.  Anyone else remember this?

AGREE re: his lack of interest in ACTUALLY deeply investigating and teaching various theological positions. E.g. Dispensationalism. Honest Biblical scholarship would have required him, when teaching a class on understanding the Bible, to have taught that there were OTHER POSITIONS, such as Covenant theology. But NO, there is only ONE WAY to interpret the Bible, MY WAY. Am sure others have posted, but I am just now seeing again more clearly, that his was a Sleight of Hand Trick to say that NO PRIVATE INTERPRETATION = the Bible interprets itself = MY INFALLIBLE INTERPRETATION. Anyone know where/how he he came up with this??? Wonder if BG Leonard leaned in this direction?? Thanks to anyone replying!!

Hi Annio, thanks for your post.  Sorry, I have no names, but your mention of the Covenant theology is interesting.  I like the idea of focusing on God's covenants throughout the bible because of the relationship He had with those involved.  Hebrews 8-19 is about the new covenant we have with God through Christ who just so happens to be the mediator of this covenant.  It's great reading.  No wonder vp/twi wanted to demote Jesus' importance in our lives with God and promote the "written word" as his replacement which, as you said, was really the written word according to vp.  

All cult leaders declare he/she has "the truth" as it was revealed to them only.  I can't believe the number of cults that are out there.

2 hours ago, chockfull said:

In Craig’s day he would throw tantrums about a lot of research topics.  He hated GMIR in the way mag and they mostly did away with any research there - he wanted to forge his own way in Bible interpretation.  Which took the form of things like the Galatians tapes teachings.  Which was mostly crying about his treatment during the fog years mixed in with seeing devil spirits around everywhere especially with any critics.  He I think does not have an extremely high IQ and so he ran off anyone he perceived as smarter than him in research circles.

He published the Acts book which he did most of the research on.  I think Wayne Clapp was his trusted research associate for most of his endeavors.  Wayne has a masters degree so is more formally educated or was.  

Then Rosalie basically disbanded the research department because there is nothing new to discover in scripture seeing as we already have the truth given to us like it hasn’t been known since the first century 

And the current brain trust is doubling down on PFAL except having modern relevant teachers teach it.  

So basically we have a worldwide ministry whose research roots are ripping off JE Stiles, Bullinger, and the Canadian ministers class complete with characters, repackaging it, and telling an origin story that is every bit as sketchy as Joseph Smiths is in the Mormon religion.

And scholars who appear more Machiavellian than scholarly.

What could go wrong?

Lots!  My mind is drawing a blank on "Canadian ministers class."  To whom were you referring?  

It's very nice to see you here Alex.  It'll be a year at the end of November since I became a member.  I've shared some and learned a lot - please feel at home here.  

Looking forward to your return Waysider.  Take care.

Deleted

18 hours ago, Rocky said:

Is it possible they could have actually believed it? Is it possible any of us actually did trust them, should we have?

What might the implications or ramifications be one way or the other?

Things like that.

 

4 hours ago, chockfull said:

My impression was that VPW was more of a natural narcissist and generally believed his own lies and hype.   Craig was more of a narcissist by imitation but was a very diligent student.  I think he also believed his own lies.

Yes I trusted them and should not have as it added two decades of bondage to my life path that I probably could have done without.

Thats the ramifications for me.  I guess everyone can speak for themself.

Yes, I believed them.  Should I have - in hindsight, no.  One ramification was critical thinking went out the door because of trusting in them and an implication would be that an extreme narcissist should never be allowed in any position of power. 

For example: Can a narcissist who commits a crime from believing his own lies be held responsible for his crimes?  Can his defense be that he truly believed his ball was stolen and was only trying to get it back when he committed the "said" crimes?  In other words, everything he did to get his ball back was justified because his ball, according to him, was absolutely stolen.  Also, since a narcissistic personality disorder is a mental health condition according to the DMS 5, a professional diagnosis could help him in his defense, but being that he has the disorder, he would never allow this to be brought up at trial.  

Now, what if the narcissist is found not guilty or gets a slap on the wrist because he truly believed in a lie of his own making (or in someone else's lie which he then made his own) and is therefore free to pursue his obsession of becoming rich and powerful so he can seek revenge on people who persecuted and prosecuted him?  Worse, what if enough people who believed all along that his ball was stolen (when in reality it wasn't) and/or liked him enough that they helped him to become rich and powerful?  Could such an insane story really happen?

Narcissists like vp and others are adept at persuading people to trust them whether they believe their lies to be true or not?  A narcissist can even be pleased that he can tell a whopper like God spoke audibly to him because of an out-of-season snowstorm/blizzard or another one can say he could shoot someone and, in both cases, believe they will not lose followers.  How sure are they not only of themselves but in people's need or desire to believe in someone who will show them "the" way.

My point is that an extreme narcissist can believe that he knows that he knows he is speaking truth when in reality he is not, and I know now how big a problem this becomes when others believe and support him.  

Does a Narcissist Believe His or Her Own Lies? | Psychology Today

11 hours ago, Raf said:

She is beautiful.  I think you will find no shortage of adorable clothing for girls! 

1 hour ago, chockfull said:

The Way International is the only environment I have been in where it is never talked about sinners repenting.  Repentance is a mental state recognizing past action as being sin and against Gods truth and resolving to change the behavior.

Interestingly all of the 12 step programs absolutely are centered around repentance and change.  And they have shown results for millions.  

Repentence is never part of TWI because those sinners never repent - they double down on “grace administration” logic and bury and whitewash sin on the part of the leaders, then hold the laymen’s feet to the fire because they are “not believing”.

That is one of the main reasons why it is a cult as opposed to genuine Christianity.

Interesting point.  I know of two ex-way people who shared that this doctrine and practice of twi you mention above led them into a gradual descent into sin that they had to deal with after leaving twi.  I personally don't remember hearing much about repentance and I honestly can't remember doing much of it myself during my 12 years of involvement.  What I do have vivid memories of is the "being out of fellowship" doctrine because of the fear that was attached to it like losing God's hedge of protection.  This included the sin of disagreeing with vp's teachings and not following leaders' demands.   

As a result, I would stop doing something that I believed caused me to be out of fellowship, but I really don't remember confessing it as sin to God our father.  Being in and out of fellowship was a reality because of what I knew about the sin nature as written in Romans 7. 

I realize that there is no mention of repentance in that chapter and then it's followed up with chapter 8:1 saying, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."  That verse was taught to mean something it doesn't say at all and it in no way exonerates twi from not focusing on repentance.  The epistles contain lists of actions that God calls sin and needs to be repented of according to 1 John.  Even certain Christian acts are without profit to the believer if done without the love of God.  

Twi is without excuse for what crap they taught and what truth they ignored or denied.

I am so happy for you and your wife and thankful that your daughter's recovery.  And having her with you at two weeks old - how beautiful was that!  Thanks for sharing such great news Raf.

6 hours ago, chockfull said:

I think we all got into TWI by some form of altruistic bait like fish bait hiding the hook.  We found out about the evil later.

What in Gods creation does any of that have to do with the Ways Ambassador program?

I guess as a rhetorical question indirectly there were a lot of WOW ambassador alumni around helping to fish with altruistic bait…

So true! 

When I first got into the way, the Word over the World (WOW) ambassador program was marketed as the next best thing to do for spiritual growth once you’ve taken the pfal and intermediate classes which is why I signed up to go as soon as I met that requirement. 

Reading about twi’s current “Ambassadors of the Way Outreach Program” tm on their website, twice it shows that the end goal of this program is to make fellowships available in the local communities where ambassadors are sent.  However, that was never true when I went WOW, nor is it true today. 

The ultimate aim of this outreach program is to run their foundational class (which today is called “Power for Abundant Living Today”) because this is where the indoctrination that twi alone teaches Biblical truth begins to really take place.   

The fact that twi says one thing on their website about this program while something different is practiced in real life is striking to me.  Why the need to deceive?  Because talking about “holding forth ‘God’s Word’ as a way ambassador sounds so much more Christian like than “promoting an organization’s class” which in itself is self-serving.

The article Belle posted at the start of this thread includes this interesting detail.  “June also saw another group of people visit The Way International. For two weeks, 246 students from the United States and 11 other countries participated in the annual Biblical Studies seminar, the Advanced Class. This is the third of four Advanced Classes The Way International is running in 2023.” 

Step one for being able to take the “Advanced” Class is taking the foundational class.  That's why The Way International is so dangerous – the more classes you take and the more leadership responsibility you have like while in the Ambassador program, the more their harmful indoctrination takes hold of you and your life.  

2 hours ago, penworks said:

In my view, the answer can be "Yes and No."

From my experience in 1970 when I was recruited to The Way at the East Carolina Univ. fellowship, it sure looked to me as if there was "some hype and commitment to the underlying Word of God ..." as Rocky put it. Not sure what the "underlying Word of God" means, but for me, I got hooked on the bible teachings presented as "the accurate Word of God" and the chance to make a commitment to a life pleasing to God, living according to teachings aimed at "building virtue," (again, something Rocky wrote) for instance axioms found in the Book of Ecclesiastes, and in Proverbs, and in the N.T. 

In my memoir, Undertow, I try to show I was one of those people who joined not for the chance to have power over other people, but as I put it at the end of the first chapter, "Hiding in Plain Sight":

"On the drive home, nudging my car through the snowstorm, I leapt from one memory to another, ashamed that I allowed myself to get sucked into The Way, and that Wierwille used me to spread his propaganda. Dr. Schaffer, an unexpected humanitarian, held me steady for the moment, but I feared for my mental health, even my physical well-being. I’d discovered The Way’s underbelly, bloody-black and swollen with greed, and nothing could make me stay. In the beginning, I only wanted to know, love, and serve God and understand the Bible. What harm could that possibly bring?" 

My desire to know, love, and serve God began with my first fellowship because of the love and acceptance shown to an 18 year old who believed she was totally unworthy of love and because of the teaching at that fellowship on the righteousness of God given to us through Christ which to a girl swallowed up in guilt was an incredible relief.  Both of these experiences were genuine - but also genuine was what you described as the "bloody-black and swollen with greed" underbelly of twi that laid hidden right from the beginning of my involvement.  

The problem usually starts with accepting the declaration that the head honcho of a ministry or church alone teaches the truth.  I see that now as the "alarm" to get out right away, but I didn't know that when I met up with twi.  Parallel to this lie from the top dude is the systemic practice of not having the right to ask questions and disagree and still be loved and accepted.  Until people, especially young people, know to look out for these going in, they won't realize the damage being done to them spiritually, mentally, financially, etc. until it's too late. That's why The Way International and so many other groups like it are dangerous today and for those whose desire to know, love and serve God leads them into higher leadership responsibilities, the more damage they experience.  

I agree that the answer can be "yes and no" to Rocky's question, but I also agree when someone's answer is a definite "no" because of having been lied to and spiritual abused.