Charity

1 hour ago, oldiesman said:

As the song goes "We'll understand it, all by-and-by".  Faith helps overcome the mysteries.

That's what I kept hearing when I would ask Christians about the trinity. 

"Farther Along" - sang it all the time in fellowships.  Encourages Christians to remain faithful, but it also discourages them from asking questions.

10 minutes ago, Rocky said:

I thought that was supposed to be Wierwille? 

His decisions were private interpretation. I'm reasonably convinced of that.

He may have started out with good intentions. But the love of money IS the root of all evil, right?

Another aspect of fundamentalism is the belief in the historical accuracy and inerrancy of the Bible.  I'm sure vpw had a quote or slogan about this that isn't coming to mind at the moment.  

8 minutes ago, waysider said:

I'm not sure why you directed that at me, but it's OK. I don't mind.

Last summer, through no fault of my own, I was injured in a catastrophic car accident. My life was changed forever. I'll never be the same person I was. Was there a still, small voice I missed?  I'm not going to beat myself up wondering.

I am sorry Waysider.  It took me a while to finish that post, and I had forgotten in the meantime who had sent it.  I'll go and edit it now.

I remember you sharing about your accident on GSC, and I know it took you a while to be well enough to come back on.  Welcome back - I missed your humour.

On 4/14/2024 at 9:55 PM, Junior Corps Surviver said:

Thanks for the replies. Growing up in this cult really did a number on me. I was afraid to ask questions and instead of thinkign that was not OK, I thought I was being decieved by Satan and it was him who was putting the questions in my mind. Think about being 9 years old and thinkign Satan himself is weaponizing your thoughts as a way to attack the Way. It's soul crushing. I just wanted the devil to leave me alone. In reality the devil had no interest in me at all. ugh

It's horrible that you had that placed on your shoulders at such a young age.  I have listened to other adults share about their lives as kids and living with a deep fear of Satan, not knowing for sure if they're saved or not, being left behind when the rapture occurs, of going to hell.  If whatever a parent teaches their child about God causes them to live with such fear, it is a form of child abuse. 

I think this is an interesting quote from the book "The Argument Against God:" It would, though, be far better if religious doctrines and systems were not taught to people until they had attained maturity.  If this were the case, how many would subscribe to a religion?  Without being given a predisposition through childhood indoctrination to think there might be something in one of the many and conflicting religious beliefs on offer, the likely answer would surely be: not very many."

4 hours ago, chockfull said:

I don’t read that at all in those verses.

Hebrews 11:6 - I mean is this just common logic ?  If you don’t believe in a magical character how would you possibly try to please a magical character?

Look deeper: the verse is about more than just believing God exists.  You must believe who this God is.  He IS a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 

- vs 4-7 is a list of how God rewarded people because they had pleased him, meaning they obeyed him.  That is who this God that we believe exists is.  He is also the God that cursed and killed those who did not obey him?  It's written throughout the OT and is foretold to happen in Revelation.
 

James 1:5-6 ask God for wisdom

If you don’t believe in a God why would you ever ask Him for wisdom?  Again rocket science 101.

Kind of a snarky remark, don't you think?  You are misinterpreting what I wrote.  What about you Chockfull - has God always given you wisdom when you asked?  After asking, have you always heard that still small voice to guide you through a confusing, difficult time?  If not, why do you think that was?  If God always has, why do you think that was?

And now that you don’t believe in God you are saying making basic logical statements shows an unloving God?

For many years, I did believe he was a loving God and that all the problems in the world were because of those who were rejecting God, believing wrong doctrine, or not trusting him enough, all of which tied his hands behind his back and allowed Satan to cause havoc.  I no longer believe in a loving God if Genesis 2 & 3 are true and if they're not, then why believe anything written afterward about Lucifer becoming the god of this world and about how wicked mankind became and that a promised messiah was necessary to save us from our wickedness.

What rock and what hard place is it that you find yourself in either way?

I explained it in my post, whether you accept it or not is your choice.  Question:  how many people were between a rock and a hard place because of the law of believing?  The evil of that doctrine was how it focused on one's ability to believe which lead to feelings of guilt.  Trusting God, however, is right because the focus is now on how faithful and powerful God is so we are free from feelings of guilt.  It's all in God's hands now.  Well, God's hands are still tied if we aren't trusting him enough (meaning without having any doubt).

Want some more rocket science 101?

If you  never read the Bible you won’t understand the Bible.

If you read the Bible and don’t believe in a God it probably isn’t going to be that interesting and you probably won’t read it much.

My post was about bible-believing Christians so your two statements above are irrelevant.

But a fundamentalist, hand in a glove absolutist?  Yeah that’s what wrecks the Bible and any inspirational truth.  And places believers in bondage.  And drives them away completely.

Fundamentalist is a person who believes in the strict, literal interpretation of scripture.  Do you take Eph 3:20 literally? Or the rapture, great tribulation, Armageddon, the final judgment and the lake of fire? Who decides what's literal or not and what are their decisions based on?

 

3 hours ago, Rocky said:

How do we even know that's actually what God intended to "demand" or commend, or even expect? 

Hebrews 11:6 NIV

6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

I don't see that demand in the verse above.

 

 Hebrews 11:6 NIV

6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

I underlined the words which I believe shows that God expects believers to have absolute certainty in him and in the "word" he has given them. 

It doesn't matter whether we agree on what this verse is saying.  The point of my post was to show the dilemma that bible-believing Christians find themselves in when it comes to God.  Unless there is a verse that proves differently, there is no room for uncertainty when it comes to him. 

Being between a rock and a hard place happens because even when a Christian is certain that God exists and therefore earnestly seeks this all-powerful and all-loving God in a time of need, it is never certain that he will show up and reward you for the trust you placed in him.  (Apparently there are legal loopholes attached to his promises.)  In other words, God expects certainty from believers when all the while, he is an uncertain God. 

It's one of the main reason why I think this concept of god as shown in the bible was thought up by men for whatever reason. 

Here's to peace (an alternative for beer in my case)

45 minutes ago, waysider said:

This event took place about 6 months after I took the foundational class. (He was an "unbeliever" I had grown up with.) I took the AC about a year later and left for FellowLaborers about 3 years after that. The "what if?" feeling haunted me for a long time.

I think people always feel guilty when a loved one or someone close to them commits suicide - but to have to carry the additional guilt because of spiritual lies you were taught at the AC shows in my opinion how harmful religion is.

1 hour ago, Rocky said:

While I am all about curiosity and continuous learning, sometimes we have to accept uncertainty. 

Your statement is true in the sense that no one is all-knowing, so there are many uncertainties in life.  But in Christianity, this is not allowed.  God expects (actually demands) believers to have absolute certainty in him and in the "word" he has given them (Heb 11:6, James 1:5-6).  IMO, this puts believers between a rock and a hard place - not a healthy place to be in.  

Now why would an all-loving God want to do this to his children? 

27 minutes ago, waysider said:

 Thomas Jefferson (yeah, THAT one) did a cut and paste of the gospels that eliminated supernatural references, including the resurrection. This is not surprising, as he was a bit of what we might call a deist.

Deism from the Latin term deus, meaning "god") is the philosophical position and rationalistic theology that generally rejects revelation as a source of divine knowledge and asserts that empirical reason and observation of the natural world are exclusively logical, reliable, and sufficient to determine the existence of a Supreme Being as the creator of the universe. More simply stated, Deism is the belief in the existence of God (often, but not necessarily, a God who does not intervene in the universe after creating it), solely based on rational thought without any reliance on revealed religions or religious authority. Deism emphasizes the concept of natural theology—that is, God's existence is revealed through nature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

Any thoughts on this?

OldSkool posted his website in his OP.  Here is a more updated one as well as one for his videos of the prophesies. He's up to over 1300 views now. 

https://www.eyesupandopen.org/index.php/prophecies-from-jesus-christ

https://www.youtube.com/@spiritofprophecy777

Sorry, you'll have to copy and paste to see them.

11 minutes ago, waysider said:

I've never in my life experienced a more intense feeling of depression and hopelessness as I did those 2 weeks at the AC. Hearing about suicide supposedly being caused by a devil spirit certainly didn't help the situation. I had one of those confrontations with death, also, though it happened before I took the AC. My roommate talked of committing suicide and when I found him he was already dead. I felt guilt and shame for years for not  trying to  muster the believing to raise him from the dead.  I can't erase the pain it caused me then, but I can live my life now without guilt about it.

What a horrible thing to have experienced Waysider.  It sounds like you were in twi when this happened because you wrote about feeling guilty over not trying to raise your roommate from the dead.  You also mentioned about not having the believing to do so which sounds like twi's teaching of the law of believing. 

We believed in such spiritual abilities as taught by twi, but how many were actually performed by vpw or lcm?  Did we even think to wonder about that, or were we too caught up in our own personal call to do them?   

As you know, I have come to accept that the bible, OT and NT, was written by men, possibly for political reasons (not completely sure of this).  So I'm curious to know why the four gospel writers included the miracles that the person named Jesus did like walking on water (along with Peter doing so too), feeding over 5000 people with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish, raising the dead, etc. if the truth was they never happened.  Was it to make the miracles of this son of a god greater than the works claimed to have been done by other gods believed in at the time?

Perhaps John hints at this in chapter 9:32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind. 33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.

All the earlier gospels recorded Jesus healing the blind, but only in John, which was the last gospel written, was there this record of healing a man born blind.

18 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Now it's 667. Has to do with the number of posts/comments you make, I think. 

A drop in the bucket compared to your number and all of the others .  It's totally insignificant that the first time I've noticed my number in I don't know how long, it was at 666, or is it ?

  Have a great day Rocky!

 I just noticed I have "666" under my "C." 

Mmmph

Good thing I've deconverted 

10 hours ago, chockfull said:

 

I blame the Adv Class for all the stuff about devil spirits. 

 

1 hour ago, waysider said:

In the foundational class, you're told you have unlimited power to do whatever you can imagine. By the time you get to the advanced class, you're walking on eggshells, looking over your shoulder, making sure the adversary doesn't creep up on you and snuff you out for moving the word. Power for abundant living indeed. Don't leave, though, unless you want to end up a greasespot in the road by midnight.

For decades, I've only had this one disturbing memory of my entire time at the AC, and the posts above have finally put it into context. (Thank you both for writing them.) That context being the focus on the adversary and devil spirits.  My memory is vague but I do know I was feeling very bad about myself and so I went into hiding.  I don't remember for how long or where I went but I do know it was an intense feeling. I needed to get away from everyone. I no longer believe in devil spirits but at that time I obviously did, and I think now I may have believed I had one. 

I don't remember finishing the class but when I did and returned home, a lot of activity was going on in my life.  I learned right away about a man I had signed up for the class had just died suddenly, and my first reaction was to go and raise him from the dead.  Seriously!  I was so sure I could do this, I had to be talked out of it by a believer who was with me at the time.  She had been my WOW coordinator and was then in the way corps.  

I also told my fiance that I wanted to go wow - a decision I made during those 2 weeks - and he agreed (reluctantly he later told me).  Soon afterward we got married and within a week left for the ROA and went into the wow program.  Within the first month of being on the wow field, I had a total breakdown.  That intense feeling of self-condemnation that I had at the AC returned, I think because I was finding my wow commitment to be so overwhelming.  But quitting the assignment meant we'd be outside of god's protection and therefore open for terrible things to happen to us which included my innocent one-year-old son. 

My husband and I did leave both the wow program and twi and eventually things settled down in my mind.  But all this manic-depressive-like behavior started with that AC - the need to hide from others, deciding to go wow, the conviction I could raise someone from the dead, the rush of the ROA and wow training and finally the crash on the wow field.  What insanity!

But it didn't stop me from returning to twi a couple of years later.

7 hours ago, Rocky said:

Isn't sociological narrative both powerful and incredibly tricky? I again rejoice with you for the (mental and emotional) work you do to process what you've been learning. I suspect that processing has shown you that what we learned from Wierwille's "ministry/cult had obvious limitations. Your life experience, notably with your precious grandson showed you some of those limitations. My view is that God (or one's imagination of what God is or may be) are FAR bigger than what twi could imagine or bring into manifestation.

My view is that God (or one's imagination of what God is or may be) is FAR bigger than what twi could imagine or bring into manifestation.

The thing is Rocky, this time I haven’t just walked away from God like I have done a few times before in my life or stopped navigating how to better understand His ways – I've now stopped believing that the god as laid out in the bible exists.   

I also rejoice in what you've shared about while researching compassion and fear.  Thanks - nice to hear.

Though my challenges aren't the same as your challenges, I remain curious and each day wanting to learn and expand what I can know. I have an 11-year old grandson who recently shared with me that he attends school online. And that he doesn't miss in-person school.

I have an 11-year old granddaughter who is the sister of my grandson with autism.  Life has been stressful for her at times seeing what her brother has gone through, but she's also seen the many successes in his life as well. 

My heart goes out to him and to my daughter's family even though they are reluctant to share the details of my grandson's challenges.

I have, over the course of the last decade, observed my grandson exhibiting intense curiosity about various aspects of life. I have no doubt that my grandson's curiosity is a great gift regardless of the social difficulties he endures. 

I empathize with these feelings – I’ve had them many times over the years as a parent and grandparent.  I think you can have a positive influence on your grandson as you continue to support him.  You both have that curious nature which hopefully will open doors between you two whether you live in the same city or not.  I wish you all the best with this, Rocky.   Keep me updated on how things are going if you'd like.

Anyway, I am so thankful for what you've shared with us on GSC, dear Charity.    Thanks, I appreciate you saying this.  

I watched the video - it was pretty insightful.  Thanks for sharing it. 

 

4 hours ago, Raf said:

I think what believers don't realize about stories like this is how capricious, whimsical and arbitrary it makes God look. "See, he did it for so and so!" And all it makes us realize is the number of times he did NOT see fit to intervene. He has his reasons. Who are we to question? 

 

The part I found most off-putting to the story I shared was the idea that the 16 year old believed the Lord put on his heart that his mother, who appeared to be having a heart attack, actually had devil spirits and so he asked God to take the demons off of her.  As I mentioned, she was instantly healed of her symptoms. 

So while my friend shared this experience to encourage me not to give up on such a faithful and powerful God, it actually made me not want to have anything to do with a god who allows devil spirits to roam freely around to cause such fear and suffering in this woman so he could then be called upon to deliver her from them. 

I don’t believe my friend thought for a moment that god wouldn’t do a miracle for my grandson’s healing as well.  I replied, however, that I had lost my trust in this god who hadn’t showed up for us in quite some time.  . 

4 hours ago, Raf said:

 

4 hours ago, Raf said:

Once you've eliminated his existence from consideration, it's impossible to be angry at him. It's impossible to hate him. Suddenly it's just ... the world looks exactly like you would expect the world to look if there were no God. 

"I survived a crash that killed three people! Praise God!"

Do people who say such things even hear themselves?

I was thinking of this a couple of days ago when I realized how in the past 2 weeks, quite a few good things had happened.

After the latest change to my grandson’s meds by his neurologist, his seizures have become less severe and not as frequent so he was able to return to school part time.

Because of his principal’s advocacy, the school board had approved one-to-one support for him. This is a very difficult thing to get. 

After graduating from college a year ago and many of his job applications being rejected (as well as a few unsuccessful interviews), my oldest grandson who lives with us got a full-time entry job in his field. 

I finally received a replacement for a medical device I need that was recalled two years ago due to a risk of causing liver damage.

As a Christian, I would have believed and been thankful that all these blessings were from God.  Since deconverting, I'm now simply thankful for the good things life brings our way, sometimes with the help of other people.

And when I learned a couple of days ago I owed over $600.00 in income tax because something I thought I had corrected online apparently didn't go through, once I calmed down, I let it go as .... simply happens in life as well.  The point is that it was great not having to concern myself with whether a god was or wasn't looking out for me based on whether I was or wasn't trusting enough in him.   

4 hours ago, chockfull said:

Yeah there’s probably a better way.  Non-verbal autism is well known.  It seems that non verbal would make it very strong on that spectrum.  This is a known mental challenge that is genetic usually and due to missing chemicals in a body that requires treatment and maintenance.

The ignorant have always flocked to superstition to explain away the unexplained.

A native witch doctor with completely different beliefs would possibly come up with the same superstitious conclusion.

 

Early blood testing showed my grandson was born with a rare gene deletion which caused him to require life-saving surgery when he was a day old and two subsequent major surgeries to completely correct a physical abnormality.  We were told that as he grew older, autism may also be a possibility because of this deletion. 

Fundamentalist beliefs can cause people to refuse medical intervention for themselves or their children because it meant doubting god's ability to heal.  I knew the physical reasons for my grandson's health issues but still fell a few times for the doctrine that certain illnesses can be caused by devil spirits.  Not anymore now.

19 hours ago, Charity said:

There were a few times when I actually thought my non-verbal, autistic grandson may have had a devil spirit(s) because of how physically agitated he would become sometimes and then, especially, when he began to have seizures.  The seizures had become myoclonic in nature where his head would jerk severely downwards and forcibly hit whatever was in front of him.  He had regular black eyes, bruises, cuts and bumps on his forehead and face. 

I've let go of those thoughts since deconverting.  Doing so was like coming out of a freakish h..llhole where I feared not being able to cast out a devil spirit from my own grandson and entering a bright and sane place where such thoughts mean nothing because devil spirits are not real - they don't exist!  (Since then, my grandson's neurologist changed his meds, and he no longer has those extreme jerks.)

During this time, a friend wanted to encourage me to trust God again and shared how their teenage son prayed for God to remove demons from someone appearing to have a heart attack and the person instantly was delivered of their symptoms.  I had no way of knowing if the healing was real or not, but I did know how  off-putting the story was to me.  It only reinforced my determination to never go back to that "world" again.

15 hours ago, Rocky said:

 

I rejoice with you (if you're rejoicing) for the new found freedom that enables or enabled you to view your grandson with more compassion and reality.

 

Hi Rocky, I've been thinking a lot about this line you wrote.  At first, it seemed as if you misinterpreted what I had said because I've always had great compassion for my grandson's health challenges.  But apart from this assumption about you, there was still something really bothering me, and so I googled "is there fear in compassion" and the website below came up.     

In it, compassion was defined as having two parts: "Sensitivity to the causes of suffering in one’s self and others” (Part A), combined with the “commitment to try to alleviate and prevent it” (Part B)."

It also said: "However, when there are FBRs (Fears, Blocks & Resistances) regarding giving Compassion to Others, this is often due to fears such as: “I will lose something” / “Others will take advantage of me” / “I cannot tolerate others’ distress”.

And this was exactly the thing that was bothering me.  During those times when I thought my grandson might have had a devil spirit, it was very frightening because I didn't "belieeeve" I could cast one out and in that sense, I could not tolerate (handle, help with) his distress.  And that's when, I realize now, that although I was with him physically, mentally I was on some fricking Luciferian planet far removed from the earthly reality that a sudden electric surge had disrupted neurons in his brain causing him to have a seizure.  With that kind of delusional mindset, I wasn't as effective with the second part of being compassionate as I could have been.

It is very distressing to admit this, but it's important because it's one way that the bible, which teaches there are devil spirits, is harmful.  

I'm learning that there are many other biblical teachings that cause harm mentally and emotionally.  It isn't just the way twi taught "the word," it was parts of the bible itself.  I'm reading a good book right now titled "The God argument : the case against religion and for humanism" by A.C. Grayling.

One last thing, I want to share about the joy that my grandson has brought to my life.  His way of being is unique to him and I have come to value every part of him -  his way of finding pleasure in certain things, his desire to interact with us, his growth and development, how he loves to have his long hair brushed when he used to hate it.  There is so much more I could share, but most of all, I love his smiles.  The other day he was laughing with his mouth closed which I think was a new experience for him by the look on his face.  You could tell he was enjoying doing it and the longer he did it, the more my husband and I began to laugh out loud with him.  He actually had us in stitches before he was finished.

  https://mi-psych.com.au/fears-of-compassion/

21 hours ago, penworks said:

Strange, I expected to read news about Donna Lombardi Martindale, which the topic states, and I see the thread is off onto something else.

4 hours ago, WordWolf said:

People keep checking in, thinking there's some news about the thread topic, and are disappointed to find out this thread now has nothing to do with this thread.

Am I the only one who thinks this thread should be split in two, with the old thread intact and a new thread with the new...whatever this is... hosting this completely unrelated discussion? 

 

On 4/27/2024 at 12:53 PM, chockfull said:

Hey karateka

Nice to meet you.  Inspiration from scripture is great.  People using that as a means to control you is not.

I dunno what any of this has to do with Donna whose thread you posted in.  You might consider starting another thread to talk about a topic or introduce yourself more and start talking.  Just a suggestion.

You're not alone WordWolf - chockfull mentioned it a few days ago and penworks also brought it up recently.  And you're right - a genuine update on DLM is what I thought I'd find when I opened the thread.

36 minutes ago, Charity said:

Catchy tune!  Speaking of dancing - wasn't this one of the manifestations of the spirit?  I'm sure it was...

 

 

 

 

A not-so-great thought just came to me.  The above reference I made about dancing and the manifestation of the spirit had absolutely nothing to do with a certain former twi production.  I was thinking purely of the power of music and dance that I felt while watching these two clips. 

3 hours ago, waysider said:

 

Catchy tune!  Speaking of dancing - wasn't this one of the manifestations of the spirit?  I'm sure it was...

12 minutes ago, Rocky said:

And Greek, Roman, Norse and any other mythologies. 

Myth

• noun A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society.

Genesis contains the Judeo-Christian creation myth.

It's all about stories.

Stories around which, for X number of years (sometimes fractions, sometimes whole years) many of us based our values and morals and that which formed the bases of how we made decisions and around which we guided the direction of our lives.

Clearly, there are MANY stories that have formed bases of how societies (and cults) organized individual lives and groups.

I rejoice with you (if you're rejoicing) for the new found freedom that enables or enabled you to view your grandson with more compassion and reality.

I'm also glad there's a place called the Greasespot Cafe allowing you to write and process what you're going through on your path to freedom of mind and heart.

 

I used to disregard your posts about there being myths in the Bible as simply "inconceivable."

But then, one crack led to another crack and .... then, there was a letting go.  Thank you for your reply.

8 hours ago, oldiesman said:

Yes.   "God" isn't the only spiritual being that has been purported to exist and spoken about by man so I was thinking it might be good to know (for purposes of this thread only) we agree that no spirits exist?

Is there even a spiritual realm?  How would we even know?  Wasn't it the unexplained events in the physical realm that gave birth to the earliest Egyptian's mythologies? 

On 4/27/2024 at 12:36 PM, chockfull said:

 

I would agree that they are human authors.  I differ in viewing them of having a “spark of the divine” in their writings.  

I would contend that scripture is Gods intention for humans to connect with that spark for inspiration but was never designed for Pharisee and Scribe exercises in predicting the future or coming up with unfulfillable levels of detail in laws and customs.  That would be man’s natural proclivity for controlling things and adding to the narrative.

Others views may vary of course

Checking for understanding.  You're saying the spark of the divine in the biblical authors' writings was from God and we can find places where that spark appears because of how they subjectively inspire each of us.  Am I paraphrasing you correctly?   

I think we all could put some inspirational words down on paper?  Some might say they come from meaningful personal experiences, and others may say they were inspired by God - He put the words on their heart to write.

Would the two different origins make any difference to the reader?  Should they?