Charity
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Posts posted by Charity
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Thank you Rocky and T-Bone for your responses. I agree that with twi and IHOP, you had individual people deciding to leave because of their personal experiences. I also agree that when large scale scandals happen as in twi, they can lead to a much greater exodus including those people who were thinking of leaving but weren't yet convinced to do so.
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5 minutes ago, T-Bone said:
Yikes!
well… …my comments were in reference just to the linked article you mentioned, and that was mostly about doctrine / theory and NOT practice…shows you what I know.
There's no fault on your part T-Bone. I shared a bit of the doctrine with you because you have studied the subject for quite a while and I was interested in how it compared with what you've learned so far.
Understanding, however, how vp's doctrinal errors (the law of believing, the absent Christ, the great principle, etc.) caused so much spiritual harm to twi followers is a totally different thing altogether. Similarly, if errors in Bickle's doctrine has anything to do with the hurtful crap going on in his ministry, I would really like to know the connection between the two. However, I can't handle spending any more time researching it - I find it just too toxic
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9 hours ago, Rocky said:
There's no new thing under the sun, at least in terms of group conduct and norms. If the pancake house (sorry, prayer hop) is authoritarian and has no safe guards, there will be sexual abuse somewhere in the mix. Of course, IHOP will dismissively refuse to validate any related concerns. It took decades before Wierwille's debauchery became widely known.
What did it take for the truth to begin unraveling to get us to where we are with GSC? Did it have to start with the big folks at the top?
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12 hours ago, T-Bone said:
Some random thoughts. I don't want to give anyone the idea I put Bickle in the same class as wierwille who was a harmful and controlling cult-leader. Some of Bickle's theology / theory / practices are suspect in my opinion - but that's due to differing point of view on my part. I know nothing of Bickle's personal behavior - and in such cases I give people a benefit of a doubt - assuming they practice what they preach - unlike wierwille the supreme hypocrite.
There is nothing I've read that speaks of Bickle being a drunken narcissist, abuser, sexual predator or plagiarist like wierwille. What is similar is the harm that IHOP's programs have caused some of their followers. I'm sure IHOP dismisses and argues against what these people have to say just as twi dismisses and argues against what posters here have to say.
How any of what's described below is a result of Bickle's doctrine can be researched online. Why any of it is of importance to the readers of GSC - maybe it will help a current or ex-twi follower see what cult-like organizations have in common so they can remove their own rose-colored glasses about twi. Anyway, here are some of the ways IHOP's harm have been described...
1. Page 1 of this thread, especially JavaJane's post.
2. https://gospelmasquerade.wordpress.com/2010/01/01/some-of-my-ihop-red-flags/
3. Facebook page: RFI (Recovering from IHOP) - is a private group with 147 members where you can request to be a member. It's purpose is: "A safe place for former members of the International House of Prayer to recover, process, vent, and realize they aren't alone in having been manipulated, lied to, used, and traumatized by the place they once thought to be safe. We welcome people from all walks of life, religious beliefs, and political stances."
5. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-mysterious-death-of-bethany-deaton/
"In 2007, Deaton's religious life took a major turn. He decided to focus on mission work, and he went to Kansas City to attend a national convention put on by a church called the International House of Prayer -- known by the acronym IHOP."
"Chief among these is prior to Micah's confession, only a few days after Bethany's memorial service, leaders of the International House of Prayer, including Shelley Hundley, Allen and Rachel Hood, and a group known as "Prisoners of Hope" conducted an "exorcism" (they prefer to use the term "deliverance"). Tyler's former community members were gathered together, informed they had demons, were interrogated about their sexuality, and subsequently subjected to hours of exorcism that multiple witnesses attest consisted of yelling, screaming, shouting in "tongues" (an unintelligble prayer language), and people shaking and falling on the floor."
"In the ensuing months, IHOP-KC was less than transparent with the case, as a court motion was required to obtain evidence that showed Micah Moore in IHOP-KC's prayer room on their own webstream video no less than 12 times the afternoon of Bethany's death, and that he had signed into class at IHOPU that morning."
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Hi T-Bone,
Here's one website about Bickle's doctrine about the end times to compare with with you've learned so far. (You might have to copy and paste if you can't click on it to open.)
https://www.equip.org/articles/forerunner-eschatology/
As a TSFAWTSAS, have you come across a "preacher" who has devised an organization of programs, practices and basic principles of how young Christians are to behave and prepare for the end times they are helping to usher in (using scriptures from OT and Revelation)?
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18 hours ago, chockfull said:
131. You can’t just “take the class” once and be done with it. It becomes an endless repeat loop throughout all life.
a. Take the class
b. Serve on class crew
c. Get everyone you know to “take the class”
d. Go out on an ambassador one year program to spend a year convincing others to “take the class”.
e. Enter a “lifetime of Christian service” program centered around running the class multiple times per year.
f. In retirement as “emeritus” help others by serving on class crew and “undershepherding” others until you die.
Anything on endless loop repeat sucks.
What I see in what you wrote Chockfull is that we were meant to have a relationship with the class - you know the one that replaced our relationship with Christ. It was our lord in that it had power, authority, and influence over our lives. It was our savior in that it saved us from all the wrongly divided word taught in every other church known to mankind since the first century. One more just for the
of it - pfal was the way, the truth and the life. The way because of the irony of it being taught by "the way ministry," the truth because of God's 1942 promise to vp and the life because after all, it did promise us a more than abundant life.
Now why would anyone want or need an everlasting relationship with Christ after being brainwashed to believe in "the class?
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Sorry, I posted the above twice.
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After spending over a week reading about Mike Bickle’s doctrines and his International House of Prayer (IHOP), as well as looking at websites which describe IHOP as a cult, my fellowship with Christ and any fruit of the spirit in my life I had took a nosedive. It was only when I realized I needed a break from “all things Bickle” and began reading Philippians that my heart almost instantly became lighter and the vice on my brain loosened.
It now makes me wonder though what happens to Christians, especially young ones, when they are fed a steady diet of only one particular food group at the expense of the others. This is what I believe Mike Bickle and his International House of Prayer is doing.
His particular food group or focus of scripture is on the end times where he emphasizes the church as being the beloved bride of Christ calling for her bridegroom (based on the Song of Solomon and Revelation 22:17), the role prayer and songs of worship (as in his 24/7 prayer house) play in bringing about the return of Christ; and his plan to build an insatiable hunger in young people to participate in these two aspects of his ministry.
This hunger is an extremely emotional one, is deepened by the isolation of his intern program for 18-25 year olds and is heavily fed with prophetic words given by every Tom, Dick and Harry who graduate from his “School of Messengers.” (SOM is for believers who sense a call to be prophetic messengers as voices and light to others.)
The point is - it’s not just the errors in his end-time teachings (which for me at this time is mostly based on what others say who have studied his work) but it’s the fact that they overshadow our walk with Christ. It's very similar to how the "upmost" importance of vp's doctrine, drive, push, vision for every twi believer to move
the wordPFAL over the world encompassed our lives and diminished our relationship with Christ.-
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2 hours ago, cman said:
here....
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.The verb "slept" is not in the past tense.
When you look at this word in an Interlinear Bible, it is in the perfect participle tense (V-RPM/P) and means "having fallen asleep" (see website below). Therefore this verse is saying, "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that died and continue to be dead." (This agrees with the meaning of the word firstfruits.)
Perfect Participle conveys a sense of completion and acts as a bridge between the past and the present. It is a completed action (he died) that has lasting or permanent results (he is dead)
In other words, it means a completed action shown by the period above
(he died) that has lasting or permanent results shown by the 
(he is dead); it often reflects a state resulting from past action.
You form the perfect participle by putting the present participle “having” in front of the past participle. For example: having done, having finished, having read, having spoken.
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/15-20.htm
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1 hour ago, cman said:
here....
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.I will reply about the word "slept" separately.
The definition of "firstfruits" as given in Scripture. (The website below talks about 5 Kinds of Firstfruits:)
1. The First Harvest - the firstfruits of your labors which you have sown in the field (Exodus 23:16)
2. Israel - Just as the first and choicest crops were devoted to God, Israel was God’s chosen and set apart people. But the fact that Israel was God’s firstfruits, not His only fruit... (Jeremiah 2:3)
3. Believers - In Romans 16:5 and 1 Corinthians 16:15, the first converts of a particular area were called “the firstfruits.”
4. The Holy Spirit - The Holy Spirit is a foretaste, the first installment of our future glory. He is God’s the pledge of more to come in our resurrection life. (Rom 8:23)
5. Jesus - As the Old Testament firstfruits symbolized and consecrated the entire harvest that was to follow, Christ’s resurrection was the foretaste of the resurrection of all believers yet to come. His resurrection is our assurance that one day all believers will be raised from the dead and will receive new, resurrected bodies. (1 Cor 16:15)
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1 hour ago, cman said:
That does not say everyone at the same time as time as we know it...
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
This is the verse you seem to be referring to in your post above. Just reading what is written, the blue words describe how it will happen, the purple words say when it will happen and I believe the red words are all inclusive - not some of the dead and not some of the Christians Paul is writing to.
What do you mean by "as we know it" at the end of your above statement?
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3 hours ago, chockfull said:
The reality is that without “the package” you have all of Christianity to draw upon and all of the body of Christ groups in a local area and the teachings of many with a wide and varied educational background to include degrees in Bible languages.
But all of those involve free thought, prayer and collaboration.
The bondage of false teaching is what limits God to only one way of looking things to a certain solution or approach.
Love your post Chockfull. Followers of twi are indoctrinated to distrust, condemn and even despise what Christianity has to offer outside their little isolated world. I like that you mentioned free thought, prayer and collaboration because any group that discourages or opposes these is not safe to be around.
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9 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:
It seems to me, this is all part of the rebirth, the renewing of the mind.
It is and just as the new birth is through the work of the holy spirit so is our renewal - neither is through any work of our own.
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14 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:
Is the expression of Truth, Love… God… limited to one language in one corner of the world in one sliver of time? If so, says who? Man or God?
Who is limiting God? The man with the past experiences and prejudices and conclusions upon which his doctrine of opinion is formed. Is this not a conceptual construct of thought? Is God a concept?
When it come to Truth, Love… God…I think we think too much in an effort to make it fit like a hand in a glove. Because gloves are comfortable and secure and feel good.
I totally agree and it makes me think of how the spirit of truth is compared to the wind that blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound thereof, but cannot tell whence it comes and whither it goes: (John 3:8)
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14 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:
Yes.
Does she not see this with a freshness, a purity of awareness, uncorrupted by expectation built upon past experience and indoctrination? Is she not observing with awe and wonder and love? Does she want to control the squirrels? Does she want to “teach” them anything?
As she grows older, she may become a zoologist and acquire vast scientific knowledge of biology and nature, but will she ever see the squirrels as she did when she was a little child? Can she? Will she endeavor to find out?
I think she can if she is willing and free to question her already-formed schemas existing in her head and when she does, it will bring her back to being that little child again - to have the same awe, wonder and love to learn and discover something new about what she had previously thought.
This is why your posts have struck a chord with me. Since coming to GSC and realizing the truth about the "absent Christ" doctrine which was filed away in my waybrain, it has become like being a child again in learning what the scriptures say about Christ. I want very much to hold onto the awe and wonder that comes with seeing something old in a new light especially when the new is so much greater than the old!
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11 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:
Knowledge is not Truth. Knowledge is not a source of Truth.
The words put together by man are not Truth. They may be mere approximations, mere pointers. But they may not be.
The email icon on your desktop is not the email. The word “tree” is not that.
When I replied with "Are you speaking in the context of looking for and following one man's teachings as being the source of truth as opposed to being open to all kinds of knowledge that is out there," it was based on what you wrote in reply to the following statements of Mike's:
“What is your "rule for faith and practice" that guides your thoughts? There has got to be something that each and every one of us look up to with great respect, and hope to line our actions and thoughts up against. We all gotta master SOMETHING.”
I didn't word my question quite right but what I was asking is whether being open to all kinds of knowledge is preferable to Mike's need to have one "true" belief system which in his case is totally based on what one man taught (even though he says he studied if for himself).
From what you wrote above, I now see you are referring to all human knowledge not being a source of truth. Even if the Bible is the truth, the way any man reads and interprets it cannot be considered as truth. Is there such a thing as "truth" or even a need for "truth?" Is it just about our having the freedom to have our own thoughts concerning what we see and hear, but not about our thoughts being taken as a "source of truth?"
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16 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:
What can we see alone in the silent stillness? What can we hear when we stop jibber jabbering lo shonta carne asada? What can we see when we put aside all systems of beleeef and doctrine? And Is this even possible? What does the little child see without all the contamination of conceptual thought? How clearly she sees!
I really want to understand what you are saying because I love your reference to the little child. So I'll take it one step at a time and ask if the following is along the lines of you are asking.
When a child with no previous knowledge of squirrels playing in a tree sees this happening for the first time, what does she make of it for herself? I agree there is a wonderful freedom for her to be able to do this.
http://web.mit.edu/pankin/www/Schema_Theory_and_Concept_Formation.pdf
The problem is that our brains are designed that any new information we take in through our five senses is assimilated by what we already know. This is based on the schema theory which I haven’t thought about for quite a while. So even for that child seeing squirrels chasing each other in a tree for the first time, her brain will automatically connect that new information to any schemas it already holds about animals or trees or whatever is similar to what she is presently seeing. If the schemas in her brain are a result of what others have told her about such things, then her present thoughts will not be purely her own.
This applies to all of us at all ages. Does this relate at all to what you are saying?
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On 3/29/2023 at 1:43 PM, Nathan_Jr said:
Is that so? There has GOT to be? This is fundamental to man's suffering and confusion that has persisted for hundreds of thousands of years: that there is some authority, some guru, some system of thought put together by the mortal thoughts of another that will guide us.
If my thoughts are guided by another, then I am not free, but a slave to the errors of another, a slave to the opinions of another, a slave to the conclusions of another. If there is a "rule for faith and practice," it can only be put together by the thoughts of man. Obviously.
Again, no one seems to see this. This is the fundamental problem: we are always lazily, fearfully seeking the easy, comfortable answers from another. Is this not obvious?
Is it in writing? Does that change anything? Who is writing? The guru? The minister? The priest? The self-anointed authority? Who made the authority? Mortal man. Obviously.
No! Fools beleeve another can light their path, and that fool follows that path into a perpetuity of confusion.
I find what you are saying intriguing. Are you speaking in the context of looking for and following one man's teachings as being the source of truth as opposed to being open to all kinds of knowledge that is out there?
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The Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus because they knew he was doing many miracles and if they did nothing, they feared that all men would come to believe in him and the Romans would then come and take away both their place and nation (John 11:47-48). Likewise, I think vp saw the love and praise young people had for Jesus and wanted that love and praise all for himself. So he cunningly demoted, demeaned and devalued Jesus in his teachings and especially his programs so that Christ no longer lived in our lives (i.e., he was basically dead to us) and vp was then able to maintain his lordship in his kingdom that was called twi. That was my experience for the years I was involved in twi and remained my experience for decades later until very recently.
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On 3/30/2023 at 6:28 PM, Twinky said:
Charity, I think you would really enjoy and benefit from the book "Adam: God's Beloved" by Henri Nouwen. Available for pennies secondhand on Amazon. It's not a thick book, but there is profound wisdom in it.
"Henri Nouwen completed Adam: God's Beloved just weeks before his death in 1996. It is a personal memoir about his friendship with Adam, a severely handicapped man he knew at the L'Arche Daybreak Community in Canada. Although Adam could not speak and was wracked with violent seizures, Nouwen called Adam my friend, my teacher, and my guide, and credited Adam with renewing his faith in a particularly dark period of life. Thanks to Adam, Nouwen came to understand the central questions of Christian theology in a way that transcended all statements of belief, and instead found joy in the mere gift of human existence. ""In the final year before his death in 1996, Henri Nouwen set out to write a book about the Creed. His plans changed when he learned of the death of his friend Adam, a severely handicapped young man from the L'Arche Daybreak Community outside Toronto where Nouwen lived. In the story of Adam he found a way to describe his own understanding of the Gospel message. Adam could not speak or even move without assistance. Gripped by frequent seizures, he spent his life in obscurity. And yet, for Nouwen, Adam became my friend, my teacher, and my guide. It was Adam who led Nouwen to a new understanding of his faith and what it means to be Beloved of God. Through the story of Adam, Nouwen found a new way to tell God's story of Jesus and the story of all of us human creatures, broken and yet beloved, who live in a world charged with the mystery of God's overwhelming love. Completed only weeks before his own death, Adam: God's Beloved became Nouwen's final, precious gift, a fitting summation of his own message and legacy."
After that, you might like to try "Life of the Beloved" which isn't about Adam or any kind of continuation of the first book above. Actually, it's about You. And Me. And every other Christian, and their life in Christ.
Initially written for a Jewish friend, Life of the Beloved has become Henri Nouwen's greatest legacy to Christians around the world. This sincere testimony of the power and invitation of Christ is indeed a great guide to a truly uplifting spiritual life in today's world.
Henri Nouwen was born in Holland in 1932 and ordained a Catholic priest in 1957. He obtained his doctorandus in psychology from Nijmegen University in The Netherlands and taught at Notre Dame, Yale, and Harvard. He experienced the monastic life with Trappist monks at the Abbey of the Genesee, lived among the poor in Latin America with the Maryknoll missioners, and was interested and active in numerous causes related to social justice. After a lifetime of seeking, Henri Nouwen finally found his home in Canada, as pastor of L'Arche Daybreak - where people with intellectual disabilities and their caregivers live together in community.
Henri Nouwen wrote over 40 books on spirituality and the spiritual life that have sold millions of copies and been translated into dozens of languages. His vision of spirituality was broad and inclusive, and his compassion embraced all of humankind.
He died in 1996. His work and his spirit live on.
Henri Nouwen pronounced his name "Henry Now-en." For more information on his life and work, please visit www.henrinouwen.org
I just finished reading the introduction of Adam: God's Beloved. It's so extraordinary in nature - I can't wait to ready it. Thank you so much for mentioning it.
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On the God's Budget thread,Nathan_Jr recently wrote:
"It's merely a seductive, novel, private interpretation, a pretension, designed to impress the dull mind. Like four crucified."
and T-Bone wrote:
"Jesus Christ is found everywhere in “the Word”. Who is teaching us “the Word”? Why wierwille , of course. It’s just another way to keep fans interested. wierwille used the topic of Jesus Christ like window dressing. It’s the bait of bait-and-switch. “Want to know more about Jesus Christ? Just come into my store - we have whatever you could want or need.”
Do you think this is what motivated vp to change the armor of God to being athletic in nature - that he needed something new to captivate his audience so they would continue to believe he's this MOG doing heavy biblical research? Did he (just for once) give an explanation for why this needed to be done? In other words, what was in it for him to this? Did he somehow think we would become more spiritual if we were AOS instead of a soldier of God?
It slays me how when I start to ask questions how often a possible answer pops into my head
- like couldn't I have remembered this before typing to save everyone a bunch of time 
. Anyways, I do remember hearing that he did it because he didn't think being a soldier fit in with the N.T. - that it's too O.T.-like or something along those lines. As a result he butchered up the Greek to prove he was right.
Somehow though, I think what Nathan_J and T-Bone said above still applies.
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14 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:
There's a whole thread on the absent Christ. Not sure if your question is answered there. The thread like 792 pages, so good luck finding it. I'm sure someone here knows the answer, or at least can offer a reasonable guess.
The absent Christ is a sort of paradox, a conundrum, a wacky theological contrivance designed to control. (The written word is always whatever vic says it is.) It's merely a seductive, novel, private interpretation, a pretension, designed to impress the dull mind. Like four crucified.
It's kinda like AOS -- you are to run the race, but above all, you are to stand. Well, which is it? You are either running or standing. Not both. So much silliness behind these pretentious claims.
Wonderful absurdities and calamitous errors usually follow these two words.
Thanks for your post! You're right - the term "the absent Christ" is another one (among many) totally made up by vp and was used to place himself and twi as the head of the body. A couple of things came to mind after reading what you wrote which I'll share on the AOS thread and a new one.
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27 minutes ago, Charity said:
Thanks Waysider and Rocky. I read the posts on the Red Thread. So it would seem that this teaching by vp which focused on Jesus was well received in the early 70's but then somewhere along the line, vp decided the Written Word would take the place of Christ since he was "absent." Does anyone remember how this transition took place?
I'm thinking it was probably the old bait and switch trick especially with the young people from the Jesus movement coming to twi.
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16 minutes ago, Rocky said:
Yes, he said it. But he got it from Oral Roberts. https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/24477-red-thread/
Thanks Waysider and Rocky. I read the posts on the Red Thread. So it would seem that this teaching by vp which focused on Jesus was well received in the early 70's but then somewhere along the line, vp decided the Written Word would take the place of Christ since he was "absent." Does anyone remember how this transition took place?
If it talks like a cult, walks like a cult, barks like a cult....
in About The Way
Posted
Wierwille, the founder of twi, "heard from God", focused on one goal (the rightly divided word over the world), pushed the abundant life to attract (young) people who would then "volunteer" their lives to achieve that goal by means of participating in his classes and leadership programs.
Bickle, the founder of IHOP-KC "heard from God," focused on one goal (bringing about the end times), pushed worship and prayer to attract (young) people who would then "volunteer" their lives to achieve that goal by means of participating in his 24/7 prayer room, classes and internship program.
Both have people who remain totally committed to the cult's beliefs. Both have people who were hurt and left with some/many needing a long time to heal emotionally and spiritually. For this latter group, ex-followers from both cults have online support groups to help each other with the healing and to warn others of the harmful aspects of their cults.
I took what I learned about IHOP very personally because of my own experience and the experiences of others in twi. And maybe because it's only been 5 months since beginning to deal with all things twi, I'm having such a hard time dealing with all things IHOP as it is connected to my involvement in a church that is not like IHOP in their practices but supports Bickle's doctrine all the same. After going through the confusing "should I stay or should I go" scenario for the past couple of weeks, I'm coming to realize that leaving is "the way, the truth and the life" choice to make (gotta love my use of quotation marks
!)