Catcup

Krys What happened to you is more than a tragedy, and more common than TWI would have anyone believe. TWI would also like for people to believe that LCM had a "one-time consensual affair" and now that he is "gone" the harshness and cruelty openly displayed in the ministry has left as well. However, TWI has done what it has always ever done: Alter outward appearances whenever the money storms out the door in order to stop the financial hemmorhage. Nothing, NOTHING will ever change at that evil empire. Especially as long as the women who covered Craig's illicit behaviors are still calling the shots. And they are. The Martindales are continuing to enjoy the fruits of the rearranged power structure at HQ and Rosie Lie has a cushy job beyond her wildest dreams. Donna out on the street? Not on your life. If Donna went, Rosie would go, too.

Happy Anniversary, Hope & John. What a long strange trip it was. Congratulations for surviving your exodus intact! For you folks from TWI who are lurking because you have felt the pinch from their restrictive lifestyle, you have no idea how much you are missing out on in life, love, and a relationship with God until you are completely OUT of that cult. Thanks Hope, for sharing your stories and insights over the years.

We make a mistake when we immediately attack a new poster instead of calmly answering the question posed, and then patiently waiting to see what happens. Unfortunately, there are some here who seem to lack the ability to be calm and patient. Sorry if that stings, but you need to be told the truth. Posters seeking an honest answer don't "tuck tail and run" when confronted with an attack to an honest question. They might have decided what they heard about this site is true, and you simply just aren't worth their time and bother. Try being courteous next time, and they might stick around long enough to truly determine whether they are serious or just trying to start something. Nothing is ever lost by being courteous. Evil will eventually show itself. However, much can be lost by being offensive and rude right off the bat.

Wonder 1 The Way International is constantly agressively recruiting unsuspecting people to feed their greed for money and control. Their fondest wish is that we would all go away and cease telling the truth of what occurred to us and our families. If we all stopped posting our first-hand experiences, those who have been approached by The Way International and who log on to the internet to search out the legitimacy of the organization would be limited to only what The Way wants them to know, not the truth of their corrupt activities. There are certainly other organizations that seek to expose cults in general, but very few are truly dedicated primarily to exposing The Way International by bearing witness with their own first-hand testimonies to the devastation that organization can bring to those who become involved with them.

The real purpose of the website is stated up front, but unfortunately, the focus of the posters can widely vary, and that CAN result in the "bashing, slamming and cut downs" that Wonder 1 mentioned. It is an unfortunate fact that there are some here who post half-@$$ed information without double-checking it, and without regard for the hurt they cause when half-truths are posted. Some also have a habit of responding in a rude and offensive manner without properly considering a question being posed. And when corrected, refuse to admit to or apologize for their errors. If these posters would "take the time to read on the main Website," they would see that they do not comply with the spirit of being "courteous to fellow posters." This regretably reflects badly upon those posters who conduct themselves with integrity, honesty, and courtesy, and confirms suspicions of those who believe this website is only a place to bitch and moan, and post lies and half-truths about The Way International.

I was at Rome City when VP came through with a slide show of the cabin they were planning to build in the Way Woods. Wierwille specifically said the cabin was for Way Corps who were traveling through the area, and that when he and Dotsie retired, they would live in the lower level, while the upper level and loft would be for traveling Corps and assorted Corps get-togethers. Imagine my surprise when the next year they flew a bunch of us Corps from Illinois in to "see the Chalet" and I discovered that not the Way Corps, but Craig and Donna had moved in. We were allowed to "sleep over" on the floor upstairs, but all the bedrooms were reserved for the Martindale family. Years later, my husband and I stayed in one of the four little motel type rooms off the back of the main cabin, several times. And it was in fact nice. But the majority of Way Corps have never, EVER gotten to stay in that huge cabin that was built with our money, for our purposes, and then given to someone else. Same old TWI concept of bait and switch.

Spirit possession has always been used to leverage money to stay within the coffers of TWI. It was the main accusation against those who stood up to top honchos within the organization and blew the whistle on their sick activities. At HQ, the typical m.i. would be to fire and escort them off grounds as swiftly as possible to limit who had access to the whistleblower's information, and to intimidate people. And while that was being done, the person would be immediately slandered as "possessed" at the next meal's announcements (and sooner through the grapevine) so that if and when believers were eventually contacted by the defamed person, they would not take seriously anything they said-- they're possessed, you know. It is a tactic of fear and intimidation. The person being given the bum's rush is sometimes so stunned it might take them a few days to figure out what hit them. That buys precious time for TWI to cover their *** and do damage control. If so and so contacts you, don't listen to him. Stay away from him. You know how those possessed people will behave-- they're so angry and possessed they might just pull a gun and... well, you know, it's happened before... All to keep the abundant sharing from running right out the door at the first word of truth. No wonder Martindale ran through personal assistants like water. To quote someone who knew..."Ever wonder why anyone who gets close to the guy gets possessed?" The tactic hasn't changed. It is still employed to this very day from HQ on down to the local fellowship, to do damage control.

Behavior disturbances! So that's why the old coot is so crazy!

Takemethere That was typical of TWI's extreme control over every part of a person's life, down to the tiniest detail. --And death threats to keep you within their clutches. It's all about control, so they have access to your money. When that's all used up, or you otherwise become a liability to them, they're done with you.

I concur with wyteduv-- I was there at the Adv. class in Rome City when Howard Allen was brought out to discuss it. Spinal meningitis. For sure he was gravely ill for a long time. But raised from the dead? I seriously doubt it.

Re Howard Allen, yes, I remember concoctions of beet juice and other herbal remedies being administered. I have no doubt they helped. Herbals are sometimes good, and the meds help as well. But I believe to claim he was actually raised from the dead is a little much. Jesus was raised after 3 days and 3 nights. Lazarus was raised after he had already been buried. I believe the centurian's daughter was raised after the mourning process had already begun. I think if anyone is going to claim someone was actually raised from the dead, they should be definitively, unquestionably dead. No cardiac OR brain activity. For a period of time.

Howard Allen did in fact nearly die in November of 1972. I was in Bloomington, IN with Donnie Fugit at his Witnessing and Undershepherding class, and we were getting constant updates, and were doing 24 hour prayer. Howard Allen was in fact gravely ill, and nearly died. It appears he had some deadly form of spinal menengitis he picked up while he and VP were out hunting. I think the myth involved is that he was raised from the dead. He supposedly "died" several times during the illness. I don't doubt he nearly died, or was on the brink of death and brought back. But I believe it had more to do with medical personnel than anything else.

Goey I asked a question trying to figure out which person you were talking about. If no one had EVER asked the question, many people who read what you posted would have assumed it to be the honest to God Gospel truth. And would have repeated it to others. God knows how many people who post on this site, but also those who lurk and never post, who would have assumed you were speaking of either my husband or my friend. And a LOT of people could have then held damning and hurtful misconceptions about either one of them or both. I stand by what I said. You should have apologized for your error. However instead of doing so, you attacked the person who questioned it. But I'm used to the tactic you used. It was used on me every time I questioned errors in TWI. This is what turns lots of people off about this site: 1) People aren't sure if what is posted here is the truth. 2) People don't like the spiteful bickering that goes on between posters. The way I see it, people should double and triple check their sources before posting anything. Most folks on WD understood that. The standards were kept high and sharp. Why? We wanted to take extra care that our facts were correct in order to avoid hurting innocent people. You don't seem to understand that is what you were doing, Goey. And on top of it, you became obstinate and rude in your subsequent post. *yawn* I have spent way too much time here in the last month trying to --in my own way-- 1). Remind people to focus on exposing the truth about The Way International with accurate first hand accounts, and 2.) Stop attacking each other and focus on the real enemy. Oh, well. You can lead a horse to water..... With the semester coming to a close, I have much better things to do. Maybe I'll be back later when you've learned to behave yourselves. I know, for the most part, you do. And I am grateful for those of you who keep high standards consistently. But if you REALLY want to provide a trustworthy witness, you have to be accurate, focused, and more seriously consider the rules on the front of this site.

Cut the crap, Goey? You were pretty specific about what you said. I happened to know of only two people who fit your description, know them both pesonally and wanted to know which one it was. How am I supposed to automatically know you had the Corps number wrong? I do my best to double-check my material before I post, so I get my facts straight and don't hurt innocent people. A simple apology would have sufficed, rather than a snide remard to defend your own error.

Right behind ya, Grizz! But seriously, this inside track on the doctrine that adultery is OK was only made available to people whom VP et al felt could "handle it." If not, they were silent about it unless it became public. The reason? They knew if it were PUBLIC knowledge that entire BOATLOADS of people would have walked off. I know I would have and many others as well. And that is also why it was extremely important when incidents did become public, to shame the hell out of them, defame them publicly and run them out of HQ on a rail. Why? So no one would talk to the obviously "possessed" people who committed the offense, and learn the REAL reason they were being given the bum's rush. That's why so many of LCM's personal assistants were regularly run out of town after being defamed as "possessed." He wanted no one to talk to them because they knew his business. As one astute man put it: "Ever wonder why anyone who ever gets close to the man gets possessed?

In a recorded class, of course he would never endorse it, just say God is silent on it. I remember that much from his recorded CFS class. But in the Advanced Class at Rome City I believe it was in 1995 (?) Martindale took it one step further than God and said that it would actually be cruel (his word, not mine) to expect your young adult (18 and up) child to remain celebate until marriage, what with all the hormones raging, etc. He "left it up to the parents" because of Ephesians 3:20, but insinuated to the parents that teaching celibacy and expecting your child to remain so until marriage was nothing but "cruel."

Um...I Corinthians 6:14 "flee fornication." Anybody who wants to argue the fact that fornication is wrong, is arguing with a whole lot more scripture than that. "We be not born of fornication.." the religious leaders said of Jesus, insinuating that he was the product of sex between Mary and Joseph before they were legally wed. The common Judaic teaching was that fornication was to be avoided. Apparently Paul kept the teaching, if you consult Corinthians.

Diazbro-- There WERE people who were in who never knew this stuff, and never saw this stuff. What you knew and saw depended upon where you were and who your leadership were and how protective they were. Please don't paint everyone with the same brush. Goey I think I pretty well knew all the folks on the actual Way International Staff research team back in the early 80's-- BTW there was no "official" research team until then. The only two people on the research team from Way Corps 6 that I remember in 1982-83 or thereabouts, were, let's see....John Sch*enh*it and Jon N*ssl*-- They were the first and second 6th Corps members on the Research team, and are now in "offshoot" ministries. --And neither one of them were ordained by The Way International. As a matter of fact, I will confidently say that there was never a 6th Corps member of the actual research team who was *ordained* at the time by TWI. And I cannot for the life of me think of but one other person from the 6th Corps who was ever on the official research team. Which of these men were the seducer? Did the writer of the "Adultery is wrong" research paper himself engage in the practice, or are you implying my husband engaged in the activity you described? Or am I missing a 6th Corps research team staffer since I have a bad case of CRS? Ch*p St*nsb*ry? Can't picture that one. Inquiring minds would like to know. Also, I will venture to say that adultery being A-OK was NEVER, and I repeat NEVER publicly taught to the 6th Way Corps. You can call me a liar all you want to, but hey, I was there and I attended every frikkin meeting, never absent to a single one. Yes, I DO know what I am talking about. But as I repeated before, it WAS PRIVATELY endorsed by LCM and others in one to one counsel and conversation. That I know for a fact. Flame me all you want, but I was in that Corps and I know. I can't vouch for what was said in other Corps meetings, but to MY specific Corps that I was in residence with, adultery was NEVER PUBLICLY ENDORSED. However I'll say it again: I do know now that it was privately supported. To insinuate that this was a doctrine everyone was aware of at the time is totally ridiculous. Was I naieve then? Yes. I thought I was in a Christian organization. In denial then? Quite possibly. We were taught that if we ever "saw" a leader make a mistake, WE were the ones wrong, not the leadership It was "the adversary" getting you to think evil. That kind of teaching is denial TRAINING. Denial NOW? Hell no. Just relating the facts. Now, fast forward to the Advanced Class Special something or other in the mid 1990's at Rome City. LCM did publicly in that Advanced Class tell the people assembled that teenage premarital sex WAS OK and was pretty obnoxious about it. It was the FIRST time I personally had ever heard anything like that from a public stage at The Way International and was pretty shocked. An elderly couple in the class never came back after that session.

Hope Thanks for sharing the "logic" used so people see exactly how they twisted the scriptures. George It's amazing how these little "private" conversations happened all over the ministry. Whenever I heard anyone talk like that, I thought they were, yes, stretching the truth to cover their own behavior. I never considered it was a doctrine promulgated and practiced by those at the very top-- until I left and found out the truth from people who had been there first hand.

Lemme connect a few more dots for you. Know why they got in trouble only when the adultery went public? Because if the adultery went public, then their doctrine on it was in danger of being publicized. And they had to know, that if their dirty little doctrine on adultery and promiscuity were to actually be widely publicized, that a whole lot of people would up and leave. They knew a good many of us would not put up with that, and the money would walk right out the door. That's why a good many of us never knew about the sexual promiscuity and adultery that was occuring right under our noses. Many of us wrongly assumed that because we were in a Christian organization that such a doctrine would be obviously wrong, and adultery would not be tolerated. That's why we would pat ourselves on the back and tell ourselves everything was all right when VP et al thunderously publicly humiliated adulterous relationships that became public. VP et al made sure to carefully dance around the details when publicizing the wrongdoing so as to throw those of us who couldn't stomach such a thing off the track. It's the publicity they were opposing, but they did so in such a way to preserve their doctrine while pacifying those who would oppose it if they knew.

Some of you other 6th Corps might remember this one. We had a special meeting with VPW in the campus center one night because of some sexual hanky panky that was occuring in our Corps that VPW had gotten wind of. R*nd*ll M*cek was asked to stand up and recount a "locker room" conversation he had overheard in the men's dormatory regarding one particular Corps woman and the men she was having sex with. Then VPW got on his high horse about how hurtful it was for the guys to talk about it like that. Now, here I am, innocent me, thinking, "See, now, he's not condoning it, he's nailing it." But now that I look back on it, it wasn't the act of sexual promiscuity he was condemning, it was the men talking about it publicly..

As far as a formal teaching that sex outside the confines of marriage or adulterous sex is ok "if you can handle it," NO, there was never any formal teaching or fireside "chat" that said that. However, I can vouch for what Hope said about the guys pulling that line on the girls. But-- in private, one to one counsel, that was another story. My room mate Mar*h* K. H*g*e was personally told by Loy Craig Martindale that sex with married 6th Corps R**k P*ny*rd was A-OK "if she could handle it." Fast forward several months later, and R**k P*ny*rd having adulterous sex with another single young woman in our Corps was NOT ok. R**K and the single chick were publicly denounced for their affair, and were sent off packing, as well as R**K's poor wife M*ch*ll*, who was horribly embarassed by the public humiliation. The difference between what Martindale told my roomie privately and what he did publicly to the same man for the same offense? Publicity. R**k's little affair with this other girl became public knowledge. You see, it wasn't the adultery that Martindale viewed as erroneous. It was the hurt it caused his wife and the rest of the Way Corps and Ministry because R**k's private business became a public issue. And that is the ONLY reason Martindale is not STILL president of TWI today. Not because he committed "adultery." Not because he committed it once, or even hundreds or thousands of times. Not because he used his power, position, and authority to intimidate women into sexual subjection. No, none of those. It's because of the publicity involved. Plain and simple. Not the right or wrong of it. If a certain courageous Irishman had just swept it under the rug like Martindale expected or knuckled under to pressure or bribes as others had done, Martindale would still be in that office today, doing the same thing he and his predecessor had done for decades. And if you think TWI has changed it's policy, it hasn't. To them, adultery STILL is a spiritual issue, not sexual.

I went into the Way Corps because it was billed to be like The School of The Prophets, for people who felt they were called. After I'd been there for several months, VP reproved us for that kind of understanding and told us we were all there to be trained as twig leaders. Bait and switch, IMO TWI advertised 5 Way Corps Objectives. Let's see if they delivered: 1. Acquire an in-depth spiritual perception and awareness: They taught us to ignore or deny wrongdoing by superiors if and when we detected it. Nah, failed on that one. 2. Receive training in the whole Word, so as to be able to teach others. They totally ignored the Ten Commandments, specifically where it said not to bear false witness ("a wise man never tells all he knows," they taught us), and especially that thingy about Thou shalt not commit adultery. Hmmmm.....not good. 3. Physical training, making your physical body, the vehicle of communication of The Word as vital as possible. VP's and other leadership's take on the purpose of certain women's "vehicles of communication" was not consistent with what others were taught. I wonder, did the Corps Director award those poor women who suffered the "MOG" extra aerobic points? Failed there, too. 4. Practice believing to bring material abundance to you and the ministry. Most people brought plenty of material abundance to the ministry, while failing to prosper themselves, because of what they were required to give to TWI. Failure. 5. Go forth as leaders and workers in areas of concern, interest and need. Nope. Our leadership and labor were conscripted in the service of what the ministry was concerned about, interested in, and greedy for. So, no, they didn't deliver what they promised.

Another roomie story. I can't believe how naieve I was about the sex going on around me. I guess I just assumed from the time I got in to TWI that because it was a Christian organization, that duh, adultery was not tolerated, and certainly we did not have to discuss such things as extra marital sex at the leadership level of Christianity. But later on in residence, I had another roomie, D*br* G*r*on. I could tell something was up with her. She was ditching classes and spending a lot of time under a sun lamp in our room. It seemed very important to her for some reason in the dead of winter to maintain a nice brown tan on areas of her body usually not seen by anyone but her. And she was emotionally upset. I could tell from time to time she had been crying. She also seemed very nervous, and especially distracted. By what, I couldn't tell, but I didn't want to pry into her business. Besides, I had to keep up with leadership obligations I had to people in my branch, and she was in someone elses branch. However, eventually, something broke. I came back to the room one day to find her hysterically in tears. I dropped what I was doing to find out what on earth was going on with her. I asked what was wrong. She replied "I'm being screwed by guys!" Now, I can understand being "screwed over" by a guy. What gal hasn't been? But I wanted clarification. I asked "Do you mean that figuratively or literally?" She sobbed "Literally!" Floored again, that this could be happening at this "level" of "leadership" in God's Way Corps. She said she was literally being screwed by guys, PLURAL. And whatever she was going through was eating her alive inside. Again, believing this was something that needed to be immediately addressed, I told her I would have to talk to her branch coordinator about this and she should confide in him and he would help counsel her in this matter. So, I talked to her branch coordinator about the issue, and I did observe him taking her aside, talking with her, and keeping her close by for a couple of weeks. So I let the issue drop. I never asked for details, because I felt that it was none of my business, that it was something she would handle with her BC and the people involved. So I don't know what the outcome was. But that let me know that there was some serious screwing around in the Corps. But I figured, hey, you confront it, take care of it when it happens, and be forgiving and let people recoup and get back on the right track. What wrong impressions I had. My final year in the Corps, I actually walked in on a couple lying in each other's arms. Both were married, but not to each other. Shocked, I shut the door and walked out. But I walked immediately to the Corps Coordinator B*b :M*r*b*t* and told him exactly what I had walked in on, and there was no mistaking it. B*b was as shocked as I was, (or at least I thought he was?) and said he would handle it with the couple and Rev. Wr*nn, the Campus Corps Coordinator. That night at dinner, the two married couples names are read off to immediately report to Rev. Wrenn after dinner. I think "Aha. It will be correctly confronted and taken care of." Boy was I disappointed. Next day, my TC comes up to me and rips me a new one for getting into somebody elses' business, and accuses ME of having sex with my fiance (which BTW never happened until our wedding night)! My TC and his wife were particularly hostile to me after that. So much for it being confronted. In fact, extra marital sex was condoned, except when it became public knowlege-- then people got upset. But beware if you are the person blowing the whistle... you are the most likely to get burned in the deal. I catch them in an adulterous act, and I, I am the bad guy. You tell me if this stuff was rampant and condoned at the highest levels.

Gotta step in and tell you about this one. My very first day in residence. Finally unpacked, and at the end of a long night, relaxing in the dorm room. My roommate comes in, who BTW had the same first name as me... just a different spelling... but anyway, she's more than a little upset. It seemed she was taking a walk around the pond with R***** P*ny*rd, and he laid a big sloppy wet kiss on her and tried to get in her pants. Freaked her out pretty bad, because R*****, you see, was married at the time. I was highly upset as well. You see, I knew R***** and his wife, having served under him in the same state in the past year. And it blew my mind on several levels.... first, that this would happen in The Way Corps, and secondly, that R***** would actually do something like that. Boy was I naieve. I told M*rsh* to go immediately to Craig and report to him what had happened, because this seemed to me to be a matter of utmost urgency that needed to be promptly and profoundly addressed. When she came back to the room, I was confused even further. M*rsh* told me that when she told Craig what had happened, he told M*rsh* if she could handle it, it was OK, and if she couldn't then don't do it. That really confused me. But I figured, hey, I don't know this M*rsh* chick, maybe she's a little ditzy, maybe she's not telling the truth. Because I couldn't possibly imagine Craig Martindale or anyone else in TWI giving that kind of advice to anyone, much less Way Corps. So I kind of blew it off, forgot about it. Until later on in the year, R***** P*ny*rd actually got tossed out of the Corps for carrying on an adulterous sexual relationship with a different single woman in our Corps. At the time, I thought, well, see, he really was doing that, and look: they didn't put up with it, they threw him out. Little did I know, they threw him out not because he was having an adulterous affair, but that he was not discreet enough about it and it became "common knowledge" among the Corps, injuring his wife, etc, etc. And years on down the road, lo and behold, I look up the No Way Out website, and there is my old roomie M*rsh*, not only telling the story about R***** and her, and what she had told me Craig had told her, but also M*rsh* told of how she was eventually seduced into VPW's circle of women by several elder Corps women who were pimping for him. Hey, that was a real eye opener for me. I knew then M*rsh* was not some ditzy person, but someone who was innocent, naieve, and sucked into a vortex of intimidating sexual abuse at the hands of a man to whom she entrusted her spiritual and physical life. Yeah, that's Martindale's line. And he learned it from VPW. Oh and BTW... the incident I mention occurred back in 1975. So you can figure from that point, Craig had already practiced adultery "If you can handle it" often enough to make it a doctrine to teach to The Way Corps, specifically my room mate M*rsh*, on her first day in residence.