WordWolf

Brian Doyle Murray

Wayne's World

Rob Lowe

Those who still rubberstamp vpw's books and classes as if they descended from heaven insist that the imaginary woman in Session One were somehow unique in

that she worried about her young child when he was out of her sight.

Thus, her unusual worry produced the unusual result of her imaginary son

being killed as the direct result of her imaginary worry.

So, let's answer directly.

Every day,

millions of mothers (not to mention the fathers) see their children off

to a babysitter, a preschool, a school, a playgroup.

Every day,

millions of mothers meet up with their children later in the day,

whether by picking them up, or by their delivery.

Between those two events (happening millions of times a day across the planet),

the children are out of the sight of their mothers.

So, the question:

Do mothers worry about their children when they are not in sight?

quote:

Originally posted by Belle:

Justloafing, there's another category of people who knew and didn't speak out. That's people like Moneyhands, who knew and his wife counseled rape victims. They didn't speak out because they didn't want to get kicked out and have to start working at real jobs in the real world. They keep their mouth shut for the money. Too easy to bribe.

Lest we forget,

yet ANOTHER category of people exists.

They are people who found out-had wives, sisters, sisters-in-law, daughters, cousins,

etc who were raped or molested-

yet faced that situation by deciding

their perfect worldview of twi was MORE important than

truth, loved ones, Biblical application, and so on.

So, they made the voluntary decision to withdraw from REAL VICTIMS who were their

"loved ones" (what a misnomer!) in order to avoid charging FELONS with a FELONY,

saying it was "that the ministry be not blamed!" (No, that means that the minister

does not commit a FELONY, not that you aid and abet a FELON.)

So, there are victims out there who were blamed by family, called liars by family,

shoved aside by family, for that reason. I find it almost beyond belief that such

people exist, but they do. These are often people who have the most difficulty

dealing with posts like "vpw raped and molested young women" without blaming the victims

of the FELONIES without

A) calling them liars

B) saying the numbers of FELONY victims at his hands are exaggerated

C) he molested them for their own good -to toughen them up spiritually

D) saying all God's ministers commit felonies-so what

E) God's criminal ministers confess to God once, then there's no other consequence to

their crime-to the FELON, the victim is still in therapy

F) why focus on a felon's felonies?

and so on.

Yes, each of those stratagems I mentioned were ALL from posts at the GSC.

(Including the "toughen them up" stuff.)

CORRECT!

According to local legend, the original song (which doesn't have the line

I used-it's a different line) was based on a house of ill-repute run by

madam Marianne LeSoleil Levant (Marianne the Rising Sun), and its door was

marked only with the rising sun. Local tours will show you the location, I

hear.

I like songs with trivia. Sue me.

quote:

Originally posted by skyrider:

Lo and behold, it took about 3 minutes and the Safety guys found out who started the fire. The cover-up was immediate, but several of us found it amusing and ironic in light of the two men at the podium that night.

The two young boys who started the fire......Rxlphie Wierwille and Bxbby Cxmmins.

And if it had been any one else's kids, the yelling and spittle directed at the

parents would have torn off the roof. They would have been blamed for not

leading their family, and exhorted to cut off communications with the kids, maybe

put them in foster care.....

(That advice WAS given to some parents.)

Since I'm sure about my answer (I can sing the whole song),

I'll post the next song....

I think someone can get this one with just one line.

"In God, I know I'm one."

quote:

Originally posted by Belle:

New song:

Philosophy is a walk on slippery rocks religion

is a light in the fog

The only "Crash Test Dummies" song most people know (if any) has no vowels in the

title.

This song, however, I know.

"What I am", by Edie Brickell, aka Mrs Paul Simon.

(Unless they divorced and I missed it.)

Technically, Edie Brickell and the New Bohemians.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike:

Belle,

My great respect for the written words in PFAL came only very recently, in 1998, and long after I had left TWI.

That's true only when one completely forgets what we've learned to date from Mike's

posts. The time Mike spent transcribing audiotapes of vpw, he likened to the

transcription of Paul's letters. He's also made mention of time supposedly

spent with him and so on....

quote:

From 1971 to his death, I kept quite a distance between me and vpw.

This from the same man who said

quote:

I happened to park next to his camper truck at the 1972 Rock of Ages. For days it was like a

football game getting around Mrs Wierwille to get to Dr with my large list of questions.

He thought it was funny and accomodated me for hours of discussion.

Then at Emporia's Advanced Class in 75 he accomodated me some more with questions,

especially at the end. My train wasn't leaving until the next day, so I and 3 or 4 others,

who also didn't have to pack and leave, hung out with him and talked heart stuff

(no Q & A this time) for a long time.

I suppose he was keeping quite a distance while asking all those questions and talking

heart stuff.

Mike's sure been around.

When he wants to claim he was an insider, he spent lots of time around vpw.

When he wants to claim he was "one of us", vpw was unable to pick him out of a lineup.

Mike is very versatile.

He is much like the famous "tall, fat, skinny little man."

quote:

I was suspicious and cautious. I was exposed to the sex scandals of TWI ten years before most others, so I had a lot of time to quietly think about it all. I saw few around me engaging in such meditation, and saw many respecting vpw in inappropriate ways. I wanted no part of it.

When I would read the collaterals I'd not transfer to my Bible's wide margin any notes until I had checked things out in other ways. Some topics were on my list of not-yet-accepted items for may years. At times I wished I could join the others and just believe everything, but I had to go my slow cautious pace. I felt it was my duty to check out all the doctrine before accepting it BECAUSE it was being so ravenously swallowed whole by so many others.

My suspicion levels varied from year to year. In my first two years it was relatively low. It went up and down several times over the decades. By 1997 my suspicion level was at it's peak, and I frequently found myself very angry at Dr and was getting close to "chucking the whole thing." It wasn't until I returned to the books in 1998 that I started thinking the way I do now. The contents of that written material, and the guidance of a wonderful believer, are what got me to change my attitude.

Based on the mutability of the printed page and his history, is this a credible account?

Up to you to decide that, but I think a proven track record of questionable authenticity

has been demonstrated...

quote:

That's the doctrinal side. Now for the practical.

From the start I was very impressed with field leadership. However, as I got close to them, I quickly started seeing that many did not measure up to the standards set in God's Word. I was reading about the negatives regarding men of God in the Bible and could see negatives in the personal lives of not a few leaders around me. I felt at the time that this may simply be a maturity thing, and expected them to change for the better. I was wrong. It got worse.

...for which I hold blameless the man who chose them out for training, and designed and

oversaw their training for four years. All of them were poor performers, but it had nothing

to do with a common education being deficient....

quote:

There is a passage in GMWD that I became VERY familiar with. It's in Chapter Six (interesting number) titled "Followers of Us." With MY bold face fonts, but with Dr's italicized fonts, the following passage can be seen:

"As people get into the truth of God’s Word, it takes time for them to jell its greatness to the point that they walk on it. They need time to mature in God’s household and in the knowledge of His Word. In doing this they are to imitate the examples set by the men and women of God who are responsible to lead them. This does not mean that we take on our leaders’ idiosyncrasies and faults. It means that as we learn principles in God’s Word, we imitate those men and women as we see them practice the truth. It is a family learning situation, a growing experience. We learn from those who have been practicing the principles of God’s Word longer than we have. In doing this we become more and more perfected in His Word. We become more and more like the Lord Jesus Christ. In turn, as God’s children, we become more and more like our Heavenly Father, for we are learning to walk in the perfection to which He has called us. That is the pattern. We imitate the lives of those whom God has set in His household as leaders and overseers. They then imitate the Lord Jesus Christ by walking faithfully on God’s Word. As all of us do this, we are imitating the source of that Word, God. Paul sets this pattern of imitation very clearly in the first letter to the Corinthians."

I applied this passage to the best of my ability in all my interactions with leadership. If people close to upper leadership had done the same then maybe things would be different now.

Since it's in print this way, it MUST have been the same way in practice. There couldn't

possibly be a discrepancy between doctrine and practice, could there?

quote:

It's not too late to apply the good doctrine we were given and throw off the bad practices we were exposed to. In doing so we who are able to do this now will set the pace for others to do it and EVENTUALLY we will be in a much better position to help those who were hurt. If we don't become Jesus Christ men and women, and rise up to HIS level and ability to handle great hurts, then our friends and relatives who were hurt do not have much of a chance.

This doctrine failed EVERYONE except me so far (and up to 7 other people.) However, if we

try it again and try harder, it will work this time!

quote:

Right now I don't see much healing taking place. Those of us who have the heart to brush off the negative factors are the only ones who will BECOME the true and effective positive factors in the lives of those who hurt.

My definition of healing, of course, includes

"holds vpw as the greatest man of God since the apostle Paul, who received revelation

at least the equal to that which Paul received, and superior to all other Christians

of the past 2 millenia, worldwide."

It also includes

"holds vpw's books as a new Bible."

My definition of "healing" is a non-standard definition.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike:

To everyone,

I've been posting a lot less this year, slowly wrapping up my presentations here and moving back into private one-on-one interactions. Please remember that I was literally dragged onto this board without my consent a few years ago.

He had NO choice in the matter. Someone dragged him to the pc and held a gun on him until

he typed the messages. his family was held hostage unless he kept typing. -->

quote:

I don't like all the huge confrontations that go on.

And yet, outside the political forum, he seems to be in the middle of most of them.

Coincidence? Offensive content? Offensive style? All of the above?

quote:

Lorna Doone's long post yesterday reminded me of how wonderfully we all COULD be interacting.

That will last until she either agrees pfal is the new Bible (agreeing with Mike),

or until Mike insults her too (if she doesn't agree pfal is the new Bible.)

quote:

The topic of this thread is the proPFAL website that is up and running,

It WAS...

quote:

and I may soon be shifting my focus and posting there.

Mike had already posted there some time ago. His famous "last lost" subject was up there.

Of course, that's academic now, since twi sent their attack dogs after the board.

quote:

I feel there is still unfinished business here, though, but my time and energy are less these days for the knock down drag out affairs I seem to often find myself in here.

We've several times discussed the differences between Free Speech forums and Focused Speech forums. It seems that because of the vast confusion and many perplexing situations surrounding twenty years of TWI activities, and the over-controled speech traditions from which we came, this board was set up to allow just about any kind of legal speech, and I think rightly so. This board is so free in what it allows to be posted the EVEN I am allowed to be here. I realize I'm a ringer here, and have often expressed my thanks to Pawtucket for his stand on such freedom of expression.

And has "thanked him" by disregarding the rules of conduct he's asked to follow,

like not posting his Doctrine outside the Doctrine forum.

quote:

Rafael has set up a Focused Speech forum and I have defended his right to do so. I'm not sure how TB wants to run his board, but I suspect he is leaning towards the Focused Speech too. In focused arenas a different kind of freedom emerges: freedom from distraction. I may be soon seek such refuge.

About fricking time.

quote:

I have had a great opportunity to present a vast amount material here that can help readers make more informed decisions. Still, I feel frustrated in that there is still so much more to present, and many fine tunings on what I have posted, sometimes rashly, as per WordWolf recent piece on posting/editing techniques. My thinking is progressing along lines of possibly doing that finishing up process on TB's site, if it turns out that his evolving ground rules will allow it.

Or, as we've been saying for years, he can make his OWN website and board and post

whatever he wants on it....

quote:

If I take this turn, I want to know how people here feel about my using their GSC handles and quoting from their posts. Like I say, my aim is to NOT antagonize.

General rule: don't mention one BOARD on another without permission,

don't mention someone who doesn't post on your board without specific explicit permission,

and make a link to another board if you're even THINKING about discussing it,

so people can see it and form their OWN opinions. That's common courtesy all over

cyberspace.

quote:

Anyway, those are some of my thoughts after yesterday's marathon, sleeping on all that was said, and then seeing this morning's posts.

quote:

Originally posted by CM:

1 Kings 15:5 Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

This is not the same as VPW.

Bravo, CM! That settles that question.

David never completely lived it down, either.

Even Matthew 1 makes a passing reference to Uriah when it gets to David.

I find it useful to think before opening the window, then thinking before I type,

and thinking as I compose the post. Few cheapshots make it past that stage.

Sometimes I do a quick glance for major errors as well, before hitting "save".

All of this helps prevent rash posting, which also lowers the hostility level of

posts.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike:

WW,

The article is "David's Mighty Men" from an early 80's Way Magazine issue.

I posted this just a few hours ago, but you missed it, among many other things.

No, I thought you were talking about a different article, because you now were

making blind references to an article without posting the article. I overestimated

your ability.

Usually, the name "Schoenheit" around here is used in conjunction with the

Adultery paper. I didnt jump to the conclusion that you meant that either-I ASKED.

quote:

You only look for what you can pounce on in my posts, like I bemoaned earlier.

You bemoaned it, but I do read your posts for content, such as they are.

Otherwise, I'd never comment on the substance of your claims.

quote:

Remember:

After Nathan's confrontation, EVERYONE knew. Uriah's relatives had to decide whether to go with the flow of negative emotion, or go with God and His spokesman. A few made the right decision.

That's my MAIN point here in response to Catcup mentioning that her sister was hurt.

That's your main CLAIM.

Your sole support to that claim-offered only when I insisted-

is that Schoenheit supposedly said so in an article.

Having seen what you do to the Blue Book and the others,

I trust you LESS than the average person on such a claim,

and I'd demand the exact quote from the AVERAGE person.

(I do that all the time when I'm not on this website, in fact.)

So, are you going to reproduce this article here,

continue to say "it agrees with me" but not produce it,

or change the subject and pronounce victory?

I'd prefer the first option, but I'm expecting one or both of the others,

based on past performance.

Oh-you changed your post after I read it. Hang on....

I'll skip commenting on what I already commented on....

quote:

Originally posted by Mike:

WW,

Have you read the Scheonheit article? Do you disagree with his findings?

The men who carried out David's orders to abandon Uriah knew something was very odd, at least. Bathsheba knew who knocked her up. You think she told NOBODY?

Baloney.

I find the overt stupidity attributed to Bathsheba running to tell her friends here

insupportable.

quote:

Plenty of people knew.

You believe plenty of people knew.

quote:

Uriah made a public spectacle of NOT sleeping with her when he was home on leave.

He notified the locals "I'm back and I'm not sleeping with my wife?"

I expect a few people noticed, but-unless they followed him around-they had no

way of knowing if he went home for an hour here or there.

It IS possible to arrive surreptitiously to a residence, have conjugal relations

with someone, and leave quietly as well. That's not a new activity.

quote:

You don't think people were capable of putting two and two together?

Did some people SUSPECT? I'd expect so.

Did they have PROOF? That's a whole other matter.

quote:

Do you need a Bible verse to see these obvious things? I don't. They are CLEARLY implied. I'd need verses to say they did NOT happen before I'd even consider that.

Suspicion is not PROOF.

quote:

We were taught to think this way in the Orientalisms class. Unless it clearly stated otherwise, we can assume that Oriental customs were followed. Well this is much more universal than oriental customs; this is Human customs.

Jumping to conclusions IS a human custom-I agree.

quote:

After Nathan's confrontation EVERYONE KNEW. All of Uriah's relatives knew EXACTLY what happened by then.

Nathan made an announcement in the Town Square?

David made an announcement in the Town Square?

I missed that verse...

quote:

They knew and had to make decisions! You can NOT deny this.

***

I know no good man sinks to knocking up a best friend's wife and then murdering him without first having scalded his conscience with many dastardly deeds. Many people either saw these things, or even worse were victims.

I know no man, even one who repents, totally eradicates the remnants of such a seared conscience. I know David sinned again, even though it's not recorded. I'll bet my life on it, and not loose a wink of sleep.

I also know that David's bad example was kept alive by the adversary (like Dr's sins here)

Now we get to the REAL reason for this post. It's NOT about David, it's about

vpw and his sins. Was that supposed to be surreptitious?

quote:

to help him steer people away from the Psalms.

these lines. David had to go an awful long way to restore his good graces and

redeem his own reputation and that of the nation.

quote:

In the process another devilish effect took hold: many people picked up on it and thought "Well the King did it, I can do it too." This human dynamic is so common that, like the above items, I'd need a verse to say it did NOT happen before I'd even consider that anomaly.

Gee, if they got that far, they could follow the logic all the way.

"The King tried it and got NAILED-his son died and everything.

If HE couldn't get away with it, what chance would I have?"

quote:

David's son Solomon picked up on it and also became a jerk on many occasions in his later life. Again, I got this from the OT History class.

Looks like you're saying Solomon's sins are specifically the consequence of

finding out David committed adultery and murder.

Since he wasn't born yet,

I find this very difficult to support.

Again, got a Bible verse, or is this something you find indisputable about

human nature as well?

quote:

Originally posted by Mike:

WW,

Have you read the Scheonheit article?

Which-the one on Adultery, or some other?

quote:

Do you disagree with his findings?

Won't know until I know what article you mention.

quote:

The men who carried out David's orders knew something was very odd, at least.

White albums. David was careful in this business-I would expect him to be

smart enough to use people who could keep a secret. (vpw certainly did-

and he got away with serial rape and molestation.)

The order to kill Uriah was sealed and known to one commanding

officer.

Do I think word got around his staff? No, and there's no evidence to make

any comment OTHERWISE to be anything beyond SPECULATION and GUESSWORK.

quote:

Bathsheba knew who knocked her up. You don't think she told anyone?

Let's see....

I might be killed if I tell someone, if I tell someone, THEY might get

killed, a deliberate attempt to make my child look like my husband's child

is in play, the penalty for adultery is STONING...

I would expect Bathsheba to keep her mouth SHUT.

The PROPER thing was never to commit adultery in the first place, but having

sinned, I expect she wasnt stupid.

quote:

You don't think people were capable of putting two and two together?

To put two and two together, you need two and two. To know two, you must

first know one.

There is no evidence-beyond your speculation-that anyone knew who was

willing to talk. If anyone other than God and Nathan knew, the Word of

God remains SILENT on that issue. "Where the Word of God remains silent,

he who speaks is a fool." (vpw)

quote:

Do you need a Bible verse to see these obvious things?

I believe I made a STRONGER argument AGAINST than you made FOR.

It didn't require deep scholarship, either.

quote:

I don't. They are CLEARLY implied.

That means there was an IMPLICATION, but you posted a SPECULATION.

They're 2 different things that are not interchangeable.

If it's so "clear", there would be a "smoking gun" verse.

quote:

I know no man sinks to murder without first having scalded his conscience first with many dastardly deeds.

I don't claim to know the mind of a murderer that well. However, there have

been things called "crimes of passion" where a moment's "hot blood" is

heeded and a felony is committed, assault, battery, destruction of property,

or murder. I'm not a criminologist nor criminal psychologist.

NEITHER ARE YOU. Please don't consider yourself an "expert on everything"-

we had our fill of that in twi.

quote:

I know no man, even one who repents, totally eradicates the remnants of such a seared conscience. I know David sinned again, even though it's not recorded.

sins, "fibbed to his wife" sins- which are one thing,

or "he committed adultery again and killed ANOTHER man to cover it" sins?

Big difference.

I expect he did the first- the second, I'd insist on seeing it line by

line.

quote:

I'll bet my life on it, and not loose a wink of sleep.

I also know that David's bad example was kept alive by the adversary. Many people picked up on it and thought "Well the King did it, I can do it too."

Maybe. I'd buy that some people found the timing suspicious, and would

SUSPECT-especially after Nathan had an "executive session" with David whose

minutes were sealed, but they wouldn't KNOW.

quote:

This human dynamic is so common, that, like the above items, I'd need a verse to say it did NOT happen before I'd even consider that anomaly.

qualifies as news.

quote:

David's son Solomon picked up and also became a jerk on many occasions in his later life.

It's in the Bible. I'm aware of it.

quote:

Again, I got this from Scheonheits OT History class.

I dont need a class, tape or textbook to learn EVERYTHING.

quote:

Go argue with him and see how far you get.

Schoenheit's picking a fight with me? I didn't see him post.

IF, IF, IF,

Schoenheit made the claim you did-that David's entire staff knew and that

Uriah's family KNEW (not suspected), then I'd respectfully disagree with

him on the grounds I posted. I still wouldn't "argue", and I suspect he's

classier than that himself.

However, I'd prefer Schoenheit make such a claim himself before I said I

disagreed with him.

I do not believe ANY teacher short of Jesus Christ HIMSELF is incapable of

error, nor would I expect them to be, nor would I expect them to think

THEY are. (If they do, there's the FIRST error right there.)

Life on the Moebius strip, let's see....

Mike, 6/18/05, 10:56pm

quote:

Have you ever wondered about the relatives of Uriah? How did they feel about David?

What was their proper Godly response to David killing Uriah?

Mike, 6/18/05, 11:01pm

quote:

Was Uriah's family thankful for David killing Uriah? I think NOT! But they could

still feel thankful for the revelations God gave David before and after that fiasco IF

they had a heart for God.....Are you willing to learn from the noble example of a few of

Uriah's relatives? Or do want to reject God and His revelations to the only man he could

find who could and would carry out the mission?

Mike, 6/18/05, 11:02pm.

quote:

Are you willing to learn from the OT that God had written for our learning?

We discussed this subject before.

Mike has misunderstood the Uriah account,

we corrected him,

and he's STILL making the SAME mistake months later.

It's a mistake most Christians wouldn't make,

because most Christians wouldnt try to justify rape and murder.

==========

Mike,

if you ever sit down, open a Bible, and read the account,

you'll see that David engaged in a governmental coverup.

First, he hid that he was committing adultery with Mrs Uriah.

Then, when she became pregnant, he attempted to make it look like Uriah's kid by

bringing Uriah home from the war, and sending food and a Barry White album to his house

so he'd have sex with his wife and think her kid would be the result of that sex, since

he trusted her and didn't suspect her of cheating.

When that failed to work, he arranged to have Uriah killed, and to make it look like an

accident. That succeeded.

It looked like David got away with it, but then God sent Nathan to confront David over

this.

Other than Nathan-who was informed by God Almighty-there is no evidence that anyone not

directly involved knew something was up. This detour into

"Uriah's family forgave David for knocking up his wife and killing him"

is wild speculation unsupported by any Scripture.

However, Mike keeps relying on this as actually happening.

That's because Mike is adamant on saying there were no real consequences for this,

and using that as an analogy and saying there were no real consequences for the rapes

and molestations committed by vpw.

That's not unique to Mike, either. The seeds of this idolatry is in the pfal class itself,

when vpw declares that "technically, all the women in the kingdom belonged to the King",

in clear and blatant violation of the Old Testament Law-which applied to beggar and king.

This helped him pave the way for his later rapes and molestations.

A separate question is: Are they the same?

Is the one-time adultery and scramble to conspire to conceal it, even unto death,

by David, followed by his repentance,

functionally equivalent to serial premeditated rape and molestation by a "man of God",

with possible repentance as he approached the end of his days?

That's answered here.

How many months before Mike makes this claim again? I'm guessing 6 months.

Mike seems trapped on a Moebius strip.

I'll get back to that in a bit.

First, how Mike fails to read his own posts.

6/18/05, 10:46pm, Catcup.

quote:

So I guess to you, the ruin of many women's lives for the momentary pleasure

of your idol just gets chalked up to what, a holy sacrifice? Idolator.

6/18/05 10:40pm, Catcup.

quote:

The one who hurt my SISTER had it accurate, Mike. That man understood the 'heart'

of PFAL even more accurately than YOU. Why, he could run circles around you with

scripture. That man was your idol.

6/18/05 10:50pm, Mike.

quote:

I reject your use of the word 'many' AND I wonder with prejudice what worse fate

those relatively women may have met if they had NOT learned about the True God from Dr.

6/18/05, 10:51pm, Catcup.

quote:

So it's better for them that they were sacrificed at the altar of your idol?

6/18/05, 10:55pm, Catcup.

quote:

I just cannot believe what you are suggesting.

I cannot fathom what you dare to suggest.

In other words, you suggest these women should be THANKFUL they were raped?

6/18/05, 11:01pm, Mike.

quote:

Thankful for raped?

Where on earth did you get THAT from?

I've never said nor implied anything like that.

I don't think that way...

Actually, Mike,

your post 6/18/05 10:50pm sure SOUNDS like that's what you SAID AND what you THOUGHT.

Their rapes were sort of "collateral damage" while God brought Teh Tr00th to us.

A handful of rapes is a small price to pay for that-and they would have been worse off

without vpw, his Tr00th, and his rapes.

quote:

I wonder with prejudice what worse fate those relatively women may have met if they

had NOT learned about the True God from Dr.

Seems nobody else on the planet was teaching about the True God and NOT raping....

quote:

Originally posted by Mike:

The biblical canon is not part of the biblical canon, either. Ever think about THAT one. Try it for a couple of decades like I have before shooting off a glib answer.

Who told you that the biblical canon is right?

It IS something worth thinking about.

Know why I have GREAT respect for the traditional canon? Because VPW convinced me to. Try thinking about THAT one for a while, too.

The same man with "GREAT respect for the traditional canon"

has been quoted as referring to it as

"unreliable fragments"

and

"tattered remnants".

His definition of "GREAT respect" is not one most people use.

But, he feels free to redefine the REST of the English language,

so is this news?

quote:

Originally posted by Mike:

Catcup,

You accept correction just like LCM.

Literal translation according to usage, Ebonics version:

"Catcup,

yo' mama!"

====

Literal translation according to usage, Elizabethan Pharisee version:

"Catcup,

you are a Samaritan, and hath a devil!"

quote:

Originally posted by Mike:

WW,

You wrote: "So, is Mike really convinced that "crude approximation of a law" is synonymous with "simply stated"? __ He appears to."

It is synonymous WHEN and WHERE someone latches onto the "simply stated" law, thinking it is the full form of the law, and forgetting the many other crucial aspects.

Persons with such a perspective only have a crude approximation in mind.

I did say essentially this, but you missed it. Again, it's the searching deeper for meaning and intent that you fall short of. You need to stop looking for word combinations that will help you in nailing me, and try to get the message understood. you're so intent on semantically naling me that yo can't see what I'm talking about.

You haven't read my full answer.

You declared-by divine fiat or other unquestionable authority-

that the 2 terms were identical, and gave no basis for anyone to conclude they ARE.

They are NOT identical, and the differences are more substantial than, say,

the modern meanings of "throughly" and "thoroughly".

I pointed out they're NOT equivalent the other day, and you're continuing as if

everyone agreed they ARE.

I understand what you're saying FAR more than you claim, and FAR more than you

understand what I say.

Disagreeing is not misrepresenting,

and insulting is not rebutting.

You might want to consider that-they're 2 differences between our posting styles.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike:

When I see WW's long posts, like the one above, I can't help but see that old SNL skit where Dan Ackroid plays "The Anal Retentive Chef."

This, I take it, is the Mikean version of "literary criticism."

quote:

I get the giggles when he posts that way and wonder how many readers skip over his posts with a yawn.

Fewer than skip over yours, from what I hear.

See, I can go on all day and make a lot of points in plain English. People can spend

an hour and come away saying "That made sense."

People can spend an hour on your posts and see little beyond sycophantic worship

of a man and the books he cut-and-pasted from others, and insults to anyone who

disagrees with you, and what most come away with is a sense or idolatry and

insults. Of course, those who have the same worship and level the same insults

will be unable to detect the difference.

HCW has written some lengthy posts with much material as well. People read them

and come away having gotten considerable substance. That's what's supposed to

happen when you write that much.

quote:

Originally posted by Catcup:

quote:

Maybe you missed that long post of mine to you above, BEFORE WW's post

You mean that long harangue where you strain at a gnat and swallow a camel? The one where YOU came off as the anal retentive chef even before you accused WW of it?

Yeah, I read it.

I just don't think it justifies an answer.

BUT I DID-so I did. *snicker*

quote:

Originally posted by Mike:

Catcup,

I urged you to deepen your comprehension, AND to do it with mastering the written forms, not recalling from faulty memory the spoken forms.

I showd you two places where Dr DID say (in essence) that "Believing Equals Receiving" was only a crude approximation of the law of believing.

Maybe you missed that long post of mine to you above, BEFORE WW's post.

So, is Mike really convinced that

"crude approximation of a law"

is synonymous with

"simply stated"?

He appears to.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike:

Catcup,

You wrote: "...I reject the "law of believing" as a LAW. There is a difference between a law and a principle. One is NOT the other"

Oh, so you have installed yourself as the official discerner of the fine differences between words?

Actually, Catcup acknowledges that words have commonly-understood meanings.

YOU'RE the one who's installed himself as the man with the power to alter them as

you see fit.

quote:

I don't care if the President of the USA along with the UN installed you as the world's official Dictionary Dictator; it would make any difference to this discussion. When we want to know what Dr meant in his writings, is is HIS vocabulary that the inspired Word of God is expressed in, and not your world's definitions.

Liar.

vpw's usage of "LAW" was consistent with what Catcup said.

We've discussed this for YEARS now.

Orange Book, page 44.

"What one fears will surely come to pass. It is a law. Have you ever heard about

people who set the time of their death? When somebody says 'Well, this time next

year I will not be here', if you are a betting man, bet your money, you are going to

win. If a person makes up his mind that this time next year he is going to be dead,

God would have to change the laws of the universe for the person not to be

accomodated."

You are disinterested in what vpw meant by "law" because we demonstrated (and

continue to do so) that believing is not a "LAW". Since you are enslaved to the letter

of his work and committed to defending it in the face of overwhelming evidence,

you're required by your own obsession to alter the meaning of the text in order to

make it defensible.

quote:

What we were taught will make sense when you take the time to properly understand it. Believing is a law, and we need to find out what that means, not reject it.

Believing is NOT a law. Believing God is a good thing. Confidence and trust in truth

is a good thing. Believing is NOT a law.

We had discussions a few years ago where you admitted you STILL didn't understand

this "law of believing" after over 5 years of study. Amazing how you STILL haven't

gotten there yet-this is SESSION 1 material. I'll die of old age before you make

it to Session 6 at this rate.

quote:

You wrote: "In my many years in The Way International, during the many classes I attended, and while literally sitting at the feet of this man, I NEVER heard Victor Paul Wierwille claim that believing was a 'crude approximation of a law.' However, Wierwille did claim 'mathematical exactness and scientific precision,' in the same breath as 'the law of believing.'"

Catcup, you have given away two of your weakness in one paragraph here. The first is your past focus on the spoken teaching of Dr, when he repeatedly tried to get top leadership to see the written. Your use of phrases like "classes" and "sitting at the feet" and "heard" is indicative of the malaise that totally infected top leadership who rested on the spoken forms drifted farther and farther from the much more powerful and accurate written forms of same.

Nice try hiding one of your OWN weaknesses here.

Catcup was physically present and learned face-to-face from vpw.

Your revisionist view is constructed from fragments of books and tapes.

(Not the WHOLE book, just the parts that match your opinion.)

Hearing vpw and seeing him teach face-to-face skips the editing process

of other people (like you) deciding what vpw meant.

vpw NEVER said believing was

"A CRUDE APPROXIMATION". That phrase was INVENTED by MIKE, and used to try to

defend the false doctrine that "believing is a law".

Go ahead, Mike, what's the book and page# where vpw said it?

I'd LOOOOOOOOVVVVVEEEE to read it for myself.

Where did vpw make this statement that you made up?

Hm-they're focused on the failure of believing to be a "LAW"-I'd better

CHANGE THE SUBJECT COMPLETELY....

quote:

Dr's final instructions were a final plea, after a ten year string of similar pleas, to get leadership serious about getting the written forms mastered. The reasons so many top leaders had no idea what to do when the ministry meltdown occurred in 1986-89 was because they had no solid roots in the written teachings, and the spoken forms had by then degenerated into many differing TVTs of powerless sloganeering. I have posted countless times here about this crucial distinction between the written and spoken forms of Dr's teachings and how leadership missed this distinction. You help prove my point in this telling paragraph of yours.

No, that had nothing to do with anything. Your OWN failure to distinguish between

the written pfal and the Mikean doctrine is demonstrated here. You can't tell that

"CRUDE APPROXIMATION" does NOT appear in the pfal class nor its collaterals,

but only in the Mikean doctrine. That is YOUR failure.

Go on, prove me wrong-cite the book and page#, many of us still have all our books....

Or, try to dodge the issue by attacking Catcup directly. Guess which direction

Mike goes?

quote:

The next weakness you exposed is the depth of learning you achieved. You may have gotten the wording right when called upon to reissue doctrines we were taught, but the depth of understanding wasn't and still isn't there. I'm talking about Dr telling us that "Believing Equals Receiving" was a "crude approximation of a law."

He never said that! Prove me wrong by citing the book and page where he said it was

a "crude approximation of a law!"

quote:

I'm going to show you TWO places where he put it in writing.

GET OUT! You're REALLY going to show us where switch from calling believing a

"law" to a "crude approximation of a law"? I won't believe it until I see it!

I expect to see you throw up misdirection and end up NEVER showing even ONE place,

LET ALONE TWO. But, hey-let's see-I may be wrong. Show us, Mike, where vpw calls

believing a "crude approximation of a law."

quote:

Again, I point out that if you had really gone to the books as Dr urged us repeatedly, and mastered them as he also urged us, THEN you would have recognized the truth of my use of the phrase of "crude approximation."

Just show us you have some steak, Mike, THEN maybe the sizzle will mean something.

Where does vpw use the words "crude approximation of a law"?

quote:

But first, I want to include others in this indictment. WordWolf is a leading writer here of how well he "mastered" the books. He has stated on numerous occasions how hard he studied and how well he did on the AC test. Yet he, you, and many others who may have done well in such settings are far from a deep understanding of what is written.

We've demonstrated our skills. You've claimed to demonstrate yours. But you have

a golden opportunity here-where did vpw use the words "crude approximation of a law"

when speaking of his false "law of believing"?

quote:

I loved the AC test. I was surprised at how easy was, and how refreshing it was. In those days I spent an enormous amount of time in the books. I commuted by train to my job then and had AT LEAST three hours of study time per day, plus my job was wide open to reading time being available. It was years later that I drifted from these habits, and drifted (like everyone else) from the accuracy of IT IS WRITTEN. But when I took the AC test it was not only a breeze, it was like a teaching, a reminder of many items I loved. I was Roman Catholic, so I was set free of many deep prisons that religion had shackled me in. I paid deep attention to the contents of the books, especially in the areas where I was set free. I paid deep attention to areas that looked too good to be true, like "heaven bound." I paid deep attention to areas that were scarey to me, like "Jesus Christ is not God." I did not merely memorize sentences so that I could parrot out answers like I now see people like you and WW must have done.

We've demonstrated an understanding of the meanings, not just the terms. Stop insulting

us and show us where vpw called believing a "crude approximation of a law".

quote:

Two years ago I challenged posters here for MONTHS to find the chapter, the ENTIRE CHAPTER, where Dr taught about "time travel." I dangled this challenge and teased posters for months to find this chapter, yet no one could.

We were disinterested in your "challenges" and have seen nothing to qualify you as

our instructor. Furthermore, the BURDEN OF PROOF is on the person making the claim of

the existence of something. If Mike claims green monkeys fly out of his posterior,

it is not up to me to prove they do NOT-it is for Mike to prove they DO.

You've misapprehended all this and are now claiming we looked and were unable to

find something. We just said "get to the point."

Speaking of "get to the point", where does vpw use the words

"crude approximation of a law" when referring to his disproven "law of believing"?

quote:

Like your assertion that Dr never taught "crude approximation," they all insisted I was crazy and there was no such chapter.

No, we said "just get to the point." Until you show that he used the term

"crude approximation of a law", Catcup's point still stands.

quote:

The reason no one could find in the corroded recesses of their minds that chapter was because I slightly altered the terminology. If I had used the words "caught away in time" then I'm sure many of the shallow parrot "masters" of the material would have remembered that chapter in WWAY. Because they had only a shallow comprehension of the material, their biological search mechanisms couldn't find it.

I answered this already. Piling on insults and puffing up your own knowledge may

impress YOU, but we're mostly adults here and you just look like that's all you have

to offer. Now, about this "crude approximation of a law" thing you claim vpw

said...

quote:

I strongly suspect that there are now AI computer programs that can "read" all of Dr's books and then answer my "time travel" question correctly. Yet no one here could.

so much else.

quote:

You're correct, Catcup, Dr never did use the exact phrase "crude approximation" when speaking of the deficiencies of the sentence "Believing Equals Receiving." He used different wording, but with the same deep meaning. I have posted several times here on one such spot, and then the other day I saw a second.

SO YOU LIED WHEN YOU SAID YOU'D SHOW US "TWO PLACES WHERE HE PUT IT IN WRITING"!

And you're admitting it!

I'm more surprised that you admitted it than that you lied.

Am I misreprsenting Mike, people? Scroll up this same post. What did he say?

"I'm going to show you two places where he put it in writing."

Then

"Dr never did use the exact phrase 'crude approximation'..."

Now he's going to try to convince us an entirely different term is identical to

"crude approximation of a law". Note that this is the same guy who claimed we were

unqualified to understand the meanings of words. (Top of this post.)

quote:

"Believing Equals Receiving" was a mnemonic slogan to help the memory with a simple, short rhyme, but it in no way was the full teaching Dr gave us on the subject. It was only a very abbreviated portion of one aspect, and Dr said so... that is he WROTE so.

And these words "this is only a very abbreviated portion of one aspect"

where "Dr said so".... what BOOK and PAGE did he say so? Or is this another incident

that Mike invented and put in vpw's mouth like the "crude approximations" we

discussed so recently?

quote:

If you had done what Dr told you to doing his final instructions you would have spent time in BTMS and eventually seen page 29. But by that time you had you own agenda, like we all did, and missed seeing what Dr WROTE on this subject. It's not on a tape or in a class. It's not even in a chapter. It's in the Introduction to Part II of the Blue Book.

Ok, this has the phrase "very abbreviated portion of one aspect" in it?

Or was that a fabrication of Mike's, attributed falsely to vpw?

quote:

Many people did use the collaterals for teachings, especially in the earlier years. But only those serious about MASTERING the books ever saw the introductions or prefaces after their initial exposures to the books.

Just get to where he uses the phrase "very abbreviated portion of one aspect",please,

and stop insulting us.

quote:

Page 29 of BTMS reads "The law of believing is dynamically powerful, yet so simple. The law, simply stated, is that what we believe for or expect, we get. This applies in every realm: physical, mental, material, spiritual."

Hm.

Again,

the phrase "very abbreviated portion of one aspect" was missing.

Can this be another example of something Mike made up and attributed to vpw?

Is Mike really unable to tell the difference between what is written in vpw

and what his own inventions are? Or is he aware and deliberately deceiving us,

hoping we can't read the difference?

quote:

(((BTW, I wonder if it EQUALLY applies to all three realms. This is what I was thinking out loud about in yesterday's post. My suspicion is that it's only in the spiritual that it ALWAYS works with no interference. This is the frontier of my learning here, so far.)))

To say that "what we believe for or expect, we get" is to only SIMPLY state the law. If I were to say that the law of gravity says "everything falls" then I'd only be stating a very simple, abbreviated form of that law.

actually, any scientist should tell you that is a FALSE version of the law of

gravity based on a misunderstanding of how gravity works. It was believed true once

when scientists were still learning, just as it was believed the earth was the center

of the universe. Neither was true, but both were believed true. No real scientist

would say "everything falls" is a "simple, abbreviated" form because it is WRONG.

If it was NOT wrong, then it would be technically true that "everything falls".

Please take this up with the scientists on board.

quote:

If I wanted to avoid this "crude approximation" I'd say that "gravity exerts a force that is reciprocally proportional to the distance squared of the product of the mass and the Earth's mass multiplied by a scaling factor of such-and-such a well known magnitude.

You'd STILL be wrong because your explanation is dependent upon the EARTH.

Gravity on Jupiter is greater than gravity on Earth, and Earth is insignificant in

its discussion. Gravity on Mercury has nothing to do with the Earth, also.

Gravity in the Andromeda Galaxy has NOTHING to do with Earth. Therefore, your

"crude approximation" is ALSO incorrect.

Since you're not a physicist, this is not a big deal-unless you're trying to

rely on your misstatement to say something else,

as you do here.

quote:

If we say that "Believing Equals Receiving" is the law of believing, then it MUST be kept in mind that this is only a SIMPLE stating of the law. It's approximate. If it were bandied about in a TVT long enough, without the other factors, though, then it's a CRUDE approximation.

And here's where Mike switched the words

"crude approximation"

in his vocabulary

with the words

"simply stated"

in vpw's vocabulary.

He then concluded the terms were equivalent, and went on his way. Is he intentionally

deceiving us in this, or has he convinced himself these terms are the same without

ever discussing their differences?

(Not to mention where he lied in saying he'd show us where vpw used the term...)

quote:

You seem to be unaware (or not forthcoming) of one such crucial factor when you wrote in the same post: "I don't care what you believe with all your heart, just because you believe it does not make it so."

Well, OF COURSE just believing doesn't make it so, it's only believing a promise of God that makes it so.

Blue Book, page 43-44.

"You may believe rightly or wrongly. Believing works both ways, and you bring to

yourself whatever you believe." Nothing about "you must believe a promise of God"

there.

page 44.

"Fear, worry and anxiety are types of believing. If you worry, have fear and are

anxious you will receive the fruit of your negative believing which is defeat."

There's a promise of God that fear, worry and anxiety brings to pass?

What Mike said above is NOT what the Blue Book says. Mike has added to the Blue

Book. That is "private interpretation."

Mike needed to add to it to try to salvage its erroneous contents. The "law of

believing" fails to stand on its own merits, so Mike must "prop it up" by adding

content NOT in the Blue Book or class.

In doing so, he takes from our CRITICISMS of the Blue Book's failures,

then lies and claims they are mentioned there somehow.

quote:

"Believing a promise of God equals receiving" is a much more accurate formulation,

Page 44.

"The law of believing works equally effectively for both the sinner and the saint..."

Mike is contradicting the Blue Book.

quote:

but is loses the rhyme and the brevity that "Believing Equals Receiving" supplies, so it can't be used as a positive slogan for a quick reminder of the overall law.

So,

the supposedly God-breathed Blue Book lacks any mention of a promise of God in that

chapter on "what you believe, you get" because it looks stupid on a bumper-sticker????

quote:

I remember when JAL was on the rampage in the late 80's an early 90's and he accused Dr of failing to teach this important factor of including the "promise of God" in our understanding of of the law of believing.

The pfal class-both the tapes AND the books-miserably fail to include it,

but found room for imaginary mothers to kill their kids by worrying,

and to include corny jokes. Apparently, they were more critical to include.

Since God supposedly directed the contents, God decided to omit references to

BELIEVING HIMSELF when discussing BELIEVING.

quote:

I pointed out to him ten places in the class where Dr absolutely DID include and emphasize that crucial factor.

Here we go again.

Mike, if these TEN PLACES supposedly EXIST, in the actual class and books,

not just in Mike's mind,

then tell us where they are.

TEN PLACES where they are INCLUDED and

EMPHASIZED,

you said.

The Burden of Proof is on you.

Otherwise, it looks like another thing you manufactured, like the

"crude approximations"

that vpw mentioned

"twice"

and still fail to actually produce-

in fact, you admitted it was a lie.

quote:

It was HE (and many others) who were guilty of committing it. He brushed off my correction of his criticism, just like I suspect you will here of my correcting you. You all answer to God, though.

We'll both answer to God. I may "brush off" spurious claims of information that

vpw supposedly wrote that he never wrote- like you did here.

I have no proof you didnt make up the accounts to JAL, earning a "brush-off".

Your track record is unimpressive in this regard.

Instead of pronouncing God's Judgement on us for ignoring the word of Mike,

how about giving us some SUBSTANCE?

quote:

The other place where Dr wrote that "Believing Equals Receiving" cannot be taken as a full understanding of the law (and hence is a

crude approximation

for those who think it is the fullness) is in GMWD page 79. There we see:

"The great things of this world are available to men and women who know how to operate one of God’s laws, namely the law of 'believing equals receiving.' And this law includes 'believing equals action.' Great accomplishments are not necessarily just for people with great intellectual ability; they are attainable by men and women who believe to receive. It doesn’t hurt to have a few brains, but it doesn’t help unless one operates this universal law of believing. Many operate the law of believing without even having a knowledge of God’s Word, for this law of believing works for saint and sinner alike.

See? vpw said sinners ignorant of God's Word (and therefore, God's promises)

operate his 'law of believing'. You said otherwise.

quote:

But for those who haven’t been operating and therefore benefiting from the law of positive believing, a knowledge of it from God’s Word can open the door to change course and set sail on the new, better way."

But, as he states it, they were capable of operating it without that knowledge.

You contradicted vpw again.

quote:

But instead, many want to say stuck in the old not-so-better way. Not me. I seek a deep understanding of all the is written.

You'll never get it by contradicting what's written,

and changing words and phrases.....

quote:

That's where the treasure is. It's in getting a deeper than parrot-like understanding of the words. God will help us restore all that was lost and more as we seek this new better way to be found in mastering the written forms of PFAL.

You can insult our understanding all you want,

but taking the jar of pickles, and labelling it "apple-butter" in no way changes

the pickles on the inside of the jar.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike:

Just like true, pure believing has a close (but no cigar) second, so does fear.

This 'believing in percentages' and 'fearing in percentages', this 'close-second' to either,

is made-up to excuse the instances where the supposed 'law' fails-which is the vast

majority of the time. It relies on continually redefining words like 'believing' and 'fear'

so that times when either is in effect, it is not REALLY in effect, allowing both terms

to dodge and evade actual meanings.

quote:

Worry won't bring on the focus of the worry, but allowing worry to LODGE, take up residence in the mind, will eventually lead to the kind of REAL fear that enables the adversary.

If extended worrying brings events closer to happening, then momentary worrying does as well,

just not as far. If the worrying is different in degree, and believing is some "LAW",

then the result is only different in degree as well. Therefore, in DEGREE, there's a

difference between the imaginary woman in pfal who killed her imaginary son and the billions

of mothers every day who worry about their kids,

but in PRINCIPAL, it is the same.

Theft of 25 cents is wrong just as theft of millions of dollars is wrong-it's only a

question of DEGREE.

So, if pfal is to be believed, billions of mothers a day are responsible for setting the

stage for horrible things to happen to their children, and these kids miraculously escape

injury because the worry-level in effect is crappy. If the mothers were able to

"negatively-believe" to the same degree as the imaginary woman, then their kids would

suffer the same death as the imaginary son.

It is considered obvious to mothers that they will worry about their children when the

children are out of sight. It doesn't take being a mother to know this. (I did ask one

just to make sure it was "considered obvious".)

If "you worry a lot over extended periods of time and your young child dies" is a LAW

like pfal claimed,

then Raf died as a small child. He detailed BEFORE how his own mother worried over him as

the imaginary mother worried over her imaginary child.

So, here we have 2 examples.

===

Imaginary mother operates the "law of negative believing".

Her imaginary son dies an imaginary death.

Real mother operates the "law of negative believing."

Her real son survives to adulthood without significant injury.

====

So, the "empirical evidence" demonstrates this theory is a FAILURE.

Hypothesis formed, experiment done, results contradict hypothesis.

Any good scientist either says "the theory is error", or says

"the theory is probably error-let's repeat the experiment" and does so.

Meanwhile, other kids suffer horrible accidents and events, and their mothers worry a lot

LESS than Raf's mother.

Whether or not a child is struck by a car is NOT dependent upon the relative worrying of

his or her parent. It is dependent upon the drivers of cars, and the inability of the child

to avoid ever crossing a street (or in a few cases, an inability to stay off the sidewalk

or away from the curb).

MOST people have no difficulty understanding this.

However, under the failed "law" of believing, a parent whose child had been struck by a car

is to be blamed as RESPONSIBLE, since their worrying ENABLED this horrible event to happen.

One may FORGIVE the parent, one may refrain from commentary, but this would not change the

truth of the matter:

the parent caused the child to be struck by a car.

=========

quote:

You people who talk about having exercised fear or believing, actually only engaged in mental assent or worry.

it suddenly begins working. Any physics student should be able to just apply high school

physics and understanding of vectors to show that. Either force is being exerted or it is

not. If you're unable, with all your might, to shove a humvee down the street, that doesn't

mean you didn't throw your back out trying-you exerted much effort, and the humvee actually

DID move, just not far.

quote:

The natural state of man is to DIS-believe everything of God, so we all start out lacking proper believing.

But, according to pfal, "believing works for sinner and saint alike."

If believing is a LAW, AS STATED IN PFAL, then the CONTENT of what is believed is

INSIGNIFICANT as a factor as to whether you get results or not.

Otherwise, the OTHER imaginary woman wouldnt have gotten her imaginary red drapes.

To say otherwise is to add to pfal. That is "private interpretation."

quote:

In this world, with all it's infuences, true believing is a feat. If it were easy then why was Abraham lauded as the father of believing.

Since you asked, I went to an authoritative source rather than speculated.

"Why is Abraham lauded as the 'Father of Believing'?"

I'll skip that he is called that, since we agree the Bible calls him that.

Galatians 3:6

"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

Galatians 3:9

"So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham."

Galatians 3:18

"For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham

by promise."

Galatians 3:26

"For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."

Galatians 3:29

"And if ye be Christ's, then ye are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Romans 4:3

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for

righteousness."

Romans 4:11-12

"And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he

had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that beliee, though they

be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also

walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised."

Romans 4:20-22

"He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving

glory to God;

And being fully persuaded that, what He had promised, He was able also to perform.

And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness."

You can see the covenant itself in Genesis 17.

So, to explain Abraham's deal simply (in deference to you, Mike),

A) God made promises to Abraham.

B) Abraham gave the situation due deliberation.

C) Abraham concluded that God's promises were trustworthy, and Abraham believed God.

Abraham trusted that what God said was true.

D) Abraham did NOT do the critical functions-he was convinced that God promised him, and that

God would do what was necessary to carry out that promise.

E) God told Abraham to demonstrate his confidence with the symbol of circumcision,

demonstrating his confidence in God was greater than his confidence in the flesh.

Abraham did so.

So, to put it even SIMPLER, (in deference to you, Mike),

Abraham was NOT called "the Father of Believing" because he had superior "powers of believing".

Abraham is called the "Father of Believing" because he put his confidence and trust in God,

and God made a covenant with Abraham, and God carried out that covenant.

Abraham's job? Sit there and trust God would do all the work.

God's job? Do all the work.

Abraham did NOT force God OR the universe to act by believing a whole lot and making the

earth shake. In fact, God was fully capable of giving Abraham kids even if Abraham turned his

back on God-but God wanted Abraham to choose to trust Him.

quote:

Believing is rare. Fear is less rare.

According to pfal Session 1 AND the Blue Book, both believing and fear are activities

taking place 24/7 across the globe, by "sinner and saint."

I thought you believed both book and session to be "God-breathed" like a Bible.

If so, why do you add words, change words, and remove words?

Students of Session 6 know that's what got Eve into trouble.....

quote:

Originally posted by Catcup:

And about that pooch pornography:

He showed that movie to an advanced class where I KNOW there was at least one seventeen year old girl in the audience-- probably more.

In the country I live in, it is ILLEGAL to show pornography to a minor.

Now you tell me, just what are the motivations for a fifty to sixty year old man to show pornography to minor teenage girls?

There is absolutely NO JUSTIFICATION FOR IT WHATSOEVER.