WordWolf

During PFAL itself,

vpw says that "Peter denied Jesus 3 TIMES 3

times"-a total of 9.

In Jesus Christ Our Passover, vpw wrote that

Peter denied Jesus 6 times.

(This bugged me.)

I'm unsure if the book has it as 6 or 9.

---------------------

Here's one Rafael used to wince at in PFAL...

vpw said that "atheists" contradicted themselves

because it means they don't believe...but in

doing so, they believe that they don't believe."

As anyone who sat thru SESSION ONE OF THE SAME

CLASS should have been able to tell,

"atheist" does not refer to "believing".

That class (& this thread) talked about 2 words:

"apisistia" & "apeithia". With the prefix "a",

or "not", these words could loosely translate

into 'no belief' and 'no pathos'.

As in "is it apistia, or apeithia'? I don't

know & I don't care."

Atheist can be loosely translated "no god."

"Theos" means "god". All students should have

been able to tell that, since they learned that

"theoponeustos" meant "God-breathed".

------------------------

Here's my personal, all-time favourite.

We've NEVER discussed it, AFAIK.

Get your pencils ready.

Ready?

Here we go.

Every person who sat thru pfal should be able

to remember vpw talking about how different

people told vpw how God told them to tell him

to go to different places, telling him to do

stuff. Eventually, he figured out the problem.

The next time someone told him something like

that, vpw told him that God had told them

nothing of the kind-that God didn't tell them

to tell him to go-God told THEM to go. God

tells you what YOU need to do, and if you are

supposed to tell someone about it, God will

tell you that, also.

------

In fact, this lesson is a very hard lesson

Joseph learned in Genesis 37:5-19.

God gives Joseph 2 dreams, but does NOT tell

Joseph to tell anyone. He tells his brothers,

and they hate him enough to kill him or sell

him into slavery, either one.

It's a very, very important lesson to learn.

-------------

Supposedly, however, God gave vpw revelation

that he was "some great one".

Why, then, did vpw go around telling EVERYONE

that, when the rule was that if God wants you

to tell someone, He'll tell you to tell them?

In all the accounts of that happening, never

was it mentioned that God said to pass it

around. In fact, if He did, that's especially

peculiar, since it would not have been

profitable all thru the years.

:)-->

A) If you meant to say we should examine what

vpw taught & wrote, & see what was in line with

Scripture & what wasn't, well, then, that's

something almost ALL of us agree on.

In fact, many of us have been doing that for

MORE than 5 years, which makes you a latecomer

to the party. :)--> (You cited 5 years.)

B) You said we don't really have Scriptures,

"only the tattered remnants."

That's not what I learned in pfal. With the

exception of a tiny handful of verses

deliberately forged to promote a doctrine, it's

been fundamentally unchanged. The main

problems, as pfal said, were in man's not

READING the Bible, and not UNDERSTANDING what

the Bible says. Virtually all notes I make on

an English version are directly from the

Greek-the Stephens Text or the Nestle Text.

Supposedly, that's what the translators worked

from when they made the versions. I'm just

proofreading their work from the Greek texts.

Inasmuch as I virtually never need to exit the

Greek texts (on the New Testament) & wonder

where something came from, it seems obvious to

me that the GREEK is nearly 100%. So long as

the GREEK is translated correctly, so long as

the Bible is actually read, and so long as

one is reading with comprehension, there should

be few problems with understanding Scripture.

"Tattered remnants"? I think NOT.

------------------------------------------

C) You offered 2 possibilities:

1) the Christian tradition-'churchianity'

2) "Mastering" vpw's books.

I choose 3) Attempting to "Master" the Bible,

irregardless of what vpw or anyone else

said about it. If their teaching holds up,

great, if not, I trash it.

None of us was suggesting the denominational

structures offered the answers vpw was also

lacking. Suggesting we did was intellectually

dishonest, & possibly quite revealing.

I'm still mildly surprised that you honestly think

that God's resources on earth are so meager, and

his plans that poorly-thought-out, that ONLY vpw

could have gotten the job done, that ONLY vpw

could teach the Bible to all those people, that

ONLY vpw could have accomplished anything of

value in his generation.

(Ignoring even Stiles & others, who were already

getting the job done.)

Of course, once you get past the hurdle of

'he was unique & extra-special and absolutely

necessary",

it becomes a short trip to

'we can overlook ANY shortcoming so long as

he's still functioning'.

That's pretty much what I get from your last

post.

I say,

that if God could have a backup plan ready that

scrapped the 12 tribes completely & restarted

with Moses (as He told Moses He was ready to do),

then I find the idea that God can't reach His

people if one person's injured or dead to be a

silly one. God will reach them from another

direction, with another person. Simply put, in

the eternal plans of God, we are all precious &

loved, but we are also expendable-none of us is

the be-all and end-all, summing up the wisdom.

I would like to thank certain posters at this

time-not by name, but by category.

I'd like to thank the ladies who were sexually

used by vpw for not jumping all over Mike for

calling into question whether they are telling

the truth or not. I REALLY expected one of you

to get indignant about it. Congratulations on

controlling your responses.

------------

Of course, Mike, you DO realize it's easier to

dismiss charges of sexual molestation, sodomy 3,

rape, etc, if they don't impact directly on your

life, don't you? I might imagine your

perspective on that issue would be somewhat

different if something had happened to your

wife, sister or daughter. (If your perspective

would NOT change with it impacting so close to

you, then 'shame on you'.)

Do you think we'll have to deal with

"special editions" in several years, once we've

all bought copies?

I hope not. One series is enough for that sort of

thing.

--------

I don't care how unauthentic it is to have

an elf firing arrows while surfing a shield in

the middle of a major battle-it looked too cool

to leave out!

Besides, from the books, it's clear elves can

fire arrows under just about any circumstance

imaginable, & hit their targets.

"Outside of this ministry, people, I've seen

very few answers."

Well, I'd say that's at least partially true.

Then again, it's also been said an atheist is

unable to find any evidence of God for the same

reason a thief is unable to find a policeman.

vpw's dogmatic position was that there was little,

if any, accurate knowledge of God and His Word

outside of twi.

Of course, most of the pfal subject matter came

straight out of books by Bullinger, Kenyon,

Stiles, Larkin, & Leonard. One might wonder why

THEY had any answers, since they never heard of

vpw or twi.

If you had an accurate record of the last things

he intended to say before he died, I'd be

interested in hearing them, but forgive me if I

don't fawn over them & make a religion out of

them.

Pfal was not perfect. We've shown that over &

over here (as have others, elsewhere). vpw was

not perfect. It's been shown that A) he refused

to cite sources to maintain an aura of

"eliteness", as if he figured it all out himself

B) his own moral character was frequently

lacking.

If all I had to offer people, in bringing them to

Christ, was what was offered in the pfal classes

(all 3 levels), a great deal would be lacking.

That "last teaching" was the closing remarks of

a man with an overinflated sense of his

organization, and an underinflated sense of all

Christians outside that organization.

Since I don't have a slavish devotion to either

the man nor his class, I can evaluate both

coldly, & I find neither is the be-all and

end-all this tape suggested.

---------

I also find it funny to suggest that vpw's

"believing" covered for everyone while he was

alive. So, he was some sort of metaphysical

Superman, holding the moon in its proper orbit

while he was here, covering for our utter

failure of believing? Please.

Until you cease worshipping any man or any class

or any organization as the be-all and end-all,

you will stunt your own growth as a Christian,

and then what good are you to God?

I was glad they left in the "contest" between

Legolam and Gimli at Helm's Deep, even if it

didn't run thru several scenes.

I think Faramir got short-changed.

Is it part 3 where Eorl the Young (or whatever

his name was) appears? I thought there was a

scene with Theoden & one hobbit....

Perhaps it's in the 3rd book/movie.

If Part 3 does not have the Fellowship show up at

Isengard to "chat" with Saruman, I will be

peeved.....

I missed the lines where Grima/Wormtongue explains

why he calls Gandalf "stormcrow", but, since they

left out Aragorn's answer to why fools in Bree

call him "Longshanks", I guess that's only fair.

We still haven't heard how Smeagol became Gollum,

or what he was before he became Gollum.

Yes, I know the answer, but a lot of people didn't

read the book.

Quickbeam would have been nice to meet, although

he would have extended the ent scenes.

I could have done without that Aragorn-off-the

cliff scene. Where did that come from, & did they

really think it added to the movie, but the stuff

I mentioned before didn't?

Despite all my objections, I think it was great,

especially the Battle at Helm's Deep.

Meanwhile, I'll regroup at Minas Troney.

Thanks for posting that, Socks.

I never saw vpw teach that, but I'm glad he was

honest about that, at least.

From the first time I read those verses, though,

that's the impression I got. It's not that hard

to detect the sarcasm, especially if you read

the whole chapter.

-------

I read something once.

It said a native american was asked if he knew

what a conscience was.

He replied, "It is a 3-cornered thing in here."

*gestures to his chest*

"When I do wrong, it turns, and the corners

stick me & hurt me.

But if I KEEP doing wrong, then the corners wear

out & they don't hurt anymore."

I was going to say "Romulans."

Klingons would just smack him around.

The borg weren't even IN this quadrant until the

24th century,

(Not counting one-way trips.)

Never trusted those Romulans, never.

However, if it was the Romulans, he would never

have seen/heard it coming.

So, I'd say "E"-something other than them.

Probably something designed by Spielberg-

he just can't get past this idea of alien

abductions he's been pushing since Close

Encounters of the Third Kind.

Thank you so much for that spoof on the

"Andorian incident." (Which I liked.)

--------

Yes, unless Wesley Crusher showed up on Voyager

or DS9, his last ST:TNG appearances established

the following:

He entered the academy, & joined the flight team.

Just before graduation, practicing a forbidden

flight maneuver ("the Colvoid Starburst") killed

off one team member & destroyed their ships.

When this was learned, the team captain was

expelled from the Academy, & the remaining handful

were to repeat their senior year-their last year's

credits were nulled. Rather than graduate a year

later (which at least one of the others did),

Wesley quit the academy & drifted a bit.

He began developing mysterious time-space powers

& went off with the enigmatic "Traveller."

(This was foreshadowed back in the series' second

episode, "Where No One Has Gone Before.)

When Wes was on the Enterprise, he held the ranks

of "field-ensign" and ensign. When in the academy,

he held the rank of cadet (I saw no indication

that his previous rank of ensign entitled him to

any special treatment, although it must have had

some social esteem attached to it. It probably

explained how he got on the team as a lower-

classman, originally.) He was last seen looking

like he was leaving Starfleet for good.

How DID he get his new rank? What happened to

his "powers"?

------------

My 2 cents on the different series...

The original. It was successful in doing

episodes that actually got you to think.

For example, "Let that Be Your Last Battlefield"

successfully showed the stupidity of racism.

Next Generation. A lot of fun. Much better

budget & special effects. Occasionally attempted

to match the original's ability to make you

think, & failed miserably each time. Problems

all got solved in one hour.

DS9. The least "Star Trek" of the shows, it was

probably my favourite for that reason. The

writers put a LOT more effort into the little

details that the old fans would catch. Problems

could come back to haunt you.

Voyager. TV Guide ran an article back when it

was about to premiere-Dilbert rated tv shows.

He had this to say about it...

"Star Trek in an area of space with no Klingons,

no VUlcans, no Romulans & no Cardassians. This

has 'management decision' written all over it."

I think that summed it up.

I don't really have an opinion about Enterprise,

for or against. I DO think they had the right

idea. The series' technology was getting too

advanced to write stories around. Without a

major societal collapse, this was the only way

to fix that.

===========

Thanks for reminding me. Lexx DOES strike one as

what it would REALLY be like, stuck on a ship for

months at a time, doesn't it?

Xenia Seeberg once said she didn't understand why

fans voted Zev as sexier than some of the other

SF women characters. It probably had to do with

them "feeling her pain", so to speak.

"BOD does full-disclosure of all wrongdoings,

provides all details & a full apology."

I don't CARE if it's too long.

Well, I WASN'T until I read your post.

That's standard operating procedure.

Back when Return of the Jedi first hit theaters,

I had the paperback on my shelf before I saw the

movie. (I refrained from even reading the

back cover.)

However, I have been able to avoid all rumours

& news about the movie UNTIL THIS THREAD.

Thanks heaps.

He played a TUBA as a LEAD INSTRUMENT???????

I'd love to see that, just one time, just to see

it done.....

("Heavy meta1?" "Weighty brass...")

I thought "Billy & the Boingers" (aka Deathtongue)

from Bloom county were the only ones that ever

had a "tuba solo" on an album.

(The compilation book "Billy & the Boingers

Bootleg" included a record, with lyrics, to their

much-mentioned song "U Stink But I Love U",

which has a tuba solo.)

(Kathy,

That was just a link to the lyrics/words.

I don't have a link to 25 mins of music.:)

If you follow it, though, there's another link

from there, to a short 'tribute to Ofcr Obie".)

For those of you whose Thanksgiving traditions

do NOT include "Alice's Restaurant",

here's a link to the complete lyrics,

which will explain my comment.

http://www.arlo.net/lyrics/alices.shtml

"Shrink,

You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant."

*walks out*

I agree there's a lot of vapid trash out there

now, but I'd hardly say it's ALL vapid trash.

Then again, I think that some of the contemporary

music has ALWAYS been vapid trash.

I think it's easier to spot now, since now you can

add a visual to vapid trash & market it. Before,

nothing could rescue something bad musically.

On the other hand, a bad visual can still make

some great music. The Rolling Stones are still

on tour, & they escaped from the Center for the

Visually Unpleasant. I'm not so crazy about

Aerosmith's looks either-but go ahead & play me

all their songs.

You might be surprised-a number of visually-

pleasant artists have some pretty good stuff too.

However, if you watch your videos with the sound

down to save your ears from Britney, you might

not notice that. (One friend pointed out her

songs are in ONE CHORD. I was wondering what the

problem was.,.)

I don't have it on hand at the moment, but

somewhere, I have this quote about the state of

the youths. They are disrespectful & lacking

values, etc, etc.

Who said it? Socrates.

I like the first 3 categories as suggested.

The one on holidays is probably really more about

"family". Remember, all the holidays were

rewritten at TWI, partly to cut you off from your

earthly family. Or, "holidays & family".

Please also make a funny archive-sometimes we all

need a joke (several threads served specifically

for that purpose, & I miss the old 'Clue' thread.)

How about one on day-to-day living?

It overlaps the others somewhat. However, it would

be the best place to put 'how I survived after

leaving TWI" threads-which newbies DO need to see.

Also, sometimes it's the day-to-day application

of stuff -like all the micromanagement &

2 x 2 stuff, & chair stringing, or watching a

'leader' humiliate someone for whom Christ died,

simply to allow the leader to blow off some steam-

that meant more than the 'official doctrine'.

As we all know, TWI has never had a policy on

debt, has ceased having one, & won't have one

any longer. It's often hard to pin down the

leadership on just what IS doctrine, & what's

some weird kind of secret.

That's my 2 cents on the subject.

WordWolf.

That's very interesting.

In the main body of the taped CF & S class,

vpw refers to that very video, & a scene with 2

women & a dog. The only thing I really remember

taking away of value about that description-

which lasted less than a minute (unless I'm

supressing how long it lasted) was vpw saying

the dog had more sense than the women because

one was pushing him towards the other, & the dog

didn't seem interested.

One lingering question about that class, though.

Vpw, while giving the impression that it's NOT a

good idea, said that every couple, at some point,

would probably try a certain act. It's one that

has been called a few things at different times.

Anyway, I've never been inspired to try it, &

have no intentions to ever try it out. My main

reaction being eeeeeeeewwwww. I've never checked

the statistics on it, but I'm pretty sure they're

below 75%. I'm wondering why he thought just

about EVERYBODY would try it. That question

kind-of nagged at me some time later. I just

figured it was one more thing I'd be in the

minority about.

---------

Re: the main topic of this discussion, it's just

one more way they treated people as disposable.

I don't break the law.

I don't tend to break general rules, unless it's

obvious that keeping it is less sensible than

not keeping it (thinking about work &

"rules for rules sake").

If situations warrant it, I'd consider either.

(For example, attacking someone who's about to

knife a kindergardener).

That having been said, it's amazing how many

people think I blindly follow rules, & how many

think I always ignore the rules.

(They should get together & conclude I'm 2

people.)

Ok, NOW it's officially his birthday!

We hope he has a good one...

STOP THE PRESSES!!!!

Man, I was all set to leave that message just

after midnight, the morning of 8/4, too.

Yeah, have fun.

Well, it's either very easy or very hard to

understand.

The most important aspects of my life are

summed up in 2 syllables.

I've a strong indentification with wolves.

The "Word" part, I presume, needs no explanation.

And here I thought no 1 was going to notice.

Note to self: remember to post a new message

in a few weeks.

Actually, things have been looking up this week.

Even my internet stalker hasn't been making any

noise lately.

If I didn't know better, I'd swear it was a

respite as a birthday present.

Now, where did I leave that beef chow mein?

WordWolf.

I was fascinated with the idea, on & off, when

I was very young. However, since I KEPT reading,

I discarded my original ideas of aliens in

space.

----------

BTW, the crop cirles have pretty well been

documented as the work of a bunch of pranksters.

I don't have their web address handy.

---------

I think Dennis Miller said it best....

"We imagine a race so advanced, so blase, that

they don't even have windows on their spaceships

to look out at the wonder of space as the pass.

Yet, as soon as they arrive on earth, the first

thing they do is grab some yokel & give him an

anal probe.

What deep mystery of the universe could they

possibly expect to find there? Imagine THEIR

disappointment..."

------------

On a lark, I picked up a Weekly World News that

featured a story about an upcoming et Second

Coming of Christ by spaceship.

Before I started to read, I said to myself

"self, if I'm right, somewhere in this story will

be an account where someone's freewill will get

discarded.

I read the article. This woman saw lights in the

sky. So, she did as a "friend" had instructed her,

once...She cleared her mind, dropped its defenses,

& deliberately tried to be receptive to "any

message" they should try to give. The very

next thing she knew, it was hours later, & she has

no memory of the experience.

But,hey, guys, whatever makes you happy.