RottieGrrrl

Yes it does, I still am intrigued by how they did it though. And I find it interesting that I cannot find one instance of anyone in the internet world of anybody else doing this. I'm wondering where they got the concept for this. The physical part anyway. The spiritual part is nonsense. What good little Pharisees they would make. Sheesh! Thank you Steve!

I've wanted to ask for years. I thought it was some figure of speech. It seems there are threads upon threads and posts upon posts over the years of "stringing chairs." I even googled it and I got results on weaving and restringing string chairs and I swear even GOOGLE HAS NEVER HEARD OF IT! If somebody does not tell me what this is I will go crazy. Is there a crazy smiley here? Okay this one will do. Thank you!

Job 12:7 "But ask the animals, and they will teach you, or the birds in the sky, and they will tell you;

This stuff is incredible. Seeing stuff like this reminds me of all the attention and detail God has given to every aspect of His creation. Anybody ever see the film God of Wonders? It's on Netflix. Thanks Kit, this made my morning. It also parallels one of my favorite quotes in the bible.

Romans 1:20

For His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse.

Hi exie!! I will, I just emailed you with the story and a hello. (I forget how to do a private topic) I know I was thinking about you too. I miss your ha ha ha ha ha ha ha stuff. :lol:/> Okay I'll get out now please excuse me. This is an interesting thread and I don't mean to disrupt it!

vpw never actually FELT the emotions the same way normal people feel them.

Sociopaths don't. vpw, more often, found emotions as TOOLS to be used to

get people to feel and think the way he wanted them to. That's why he

learned to FAKE them and to deliver a PERFORMANCE.

The handful who ALWAYS

swallowed it seem to still be twi'ers, or ex-twi'ers who still teach

that the vpw way was THE path.

These are very interesting revelations. In some cases I do believe that some people (the father of this guy that got in trouble for instance)are not so rigid in Wierwille's belief, but just have to much of a comfort zone built up there. I know he didn't go along with certain things they did, like paying 25,000 bucks for Geers class, but when I asked him why he didn't leave, he told me he needed those people.

I am guessing that partly because so much of his life and family has been devoted to this "way culture" and group, where else would he go? I don't know. I think it would have been better had he gone to some other church. Let his kids get an idea of REAL outreach and REAL ministries. Not an endless parade of classes and the only "outreach" their "ministry" does trying to get 3 new people so they can run another class.

But yeah, you described the offshooters pretty well. I still shake my head at their beliefs, when all it takes is a cursory glance at the bible to refute them. ie: when I left they were still teaching that God WAS NOT responsible for the flood, the devil was, and the angel of death (Passover) was really a devil spirit.. Don't talk to Jesus that could prove to be fatal...I wonder if they still teach that Mary was not a virgin when she gave birth to Christ? But, again, I digress (as Sophia used to say on golden girls) :offtopic:/>/>

Wow Twinky, your post reminded me of a couple of memories. Sigh.

I remember when I was first taking PFAL when I was, what 17 or 18 years old. One of the guys in our local fellowship popped in at the beginning, before the class started, and the woman who was "under-shepherding" me was mad at him because he was going out of state to visit his mother, because his father had just died. She told me he should stick around and be with his brothers and sisters HERE. I was so confused by that. Hardly anybody went up to console the guy. I wanted to but felt it was wrong. What an example!

Not so long after that, my "twig" leader, a young lady, told me that she doesn't believe there should be any social security for old people because everybody should plan and save for their retirement. That troubled me too, but I accepted it as gospel and repeated it to my dad. So my Unchristian, mean dad said to me, "Sombody has GOT to be telling you these things because I KNOW you and I KNOW you are not that cold hearted." Wow, that stopped me in my tracks.

Skip ahead to around 1997 or so when I was attending a local fellowship from a local offshoot. Some how we got around to talking about plane crashes (there may have been one in the news) and I mentioned that’s why I don’t like flying. Well boy o boy I got jumped on for that. They ALL told me all I had to do was take out my bible and start reading. I just stared at them in stunned disbelief. What were these people, freaking ZOMBIES? Like they would really do that.

A year later, the “leader” of that fellowship told me that she had been to Scottland, and they learned things about “fear” In other words it’s okay to be afraid if you are in a plane that’s crashing. Wow. She had to go to Scotland to learn that?

I’m just shaking my head it took me so long to wake up, but in a way it was a good experience. I really have my BS antennas up on the occasion I do attend a real church now. But I gotta tell you, in a REAL church I don’t hear half as much BS as I do in the wayfer offshoots.

Oh, by the way, on the Jesus wedding thing, I heard some TV preacher say he thinks it was one of the apostles wedding. He pointed out how he came to that conclusion, but I forget. But he didn't choose the apostles til later right? Okay, now I'm confused and getting

Sorry!

It takes a conscious effort to suppress one's emotions on a continuous basis. That's why the struggle for likemindedness is endless and largely futile.

Hmmm, so many good observations here, and yes, I would agree it's LARGELY futile, but they get enough people to stick around to support their small little cliquish offshoots.

I still remember back in 1991 or 1992 when I first attended the local offshoot, after being out of the mix since 1981. I remember going to this guys house and a whole string of kids coming out of the house, about 8 of them, all in line, leaving, like little zombies. They had been at a sleepover. I said hello to them and a couple of them just threw me blank stares and trudged on. I mean, that was WEIRD. So weird I still shudder at that mental image to this day.

I was going to say that regarding waysiders comment, that suppressing ones emotions is possible until real life hits them in the face. Case in point one of the longtime local offshooters, actually one hell of a nice guy, his son is in county jail on first degree murder charges after he went on a senseless stabbing frenzy in a local dance bar a couple of years ago. It hasn't gone to trial yet, but it will be high profile when it does. His dad is paying for a decent defense attorney (there goes his retirement fund) and his son's defense attorney has been quoted as saying, "This is a guy who was raised in church, and goes to church 3 times a week and teaches a youth ministry) okay... It's not exactly a church, and the "youth" ministry is just a bunch of wayfer kids, but I digress..

I saw all the "bigshots" from that local fellowship walking out of the courtroom on TV Sunday morning on the news,and I'm really wondering if this HUGE HORRIBLE tragedy is going to wake them up or affect them at all. I can't imagine what his defense will be. But I'm really wondering if this is going to crack the pretend world they live in, or if they will just go on in their little bubble.

He later sold his retitled PFAL class for serious $$$ through licensing agreements, to those desperate souls too stupid to have learned PFAL the first 50 or so times they took it and needed someone else to tell them what they already had forgottten - hard to report anything good about that.

I'm thinking that maybe about 10 years ago, I was still in semi contact with one guy from the local offshoot that was running Geers class. He normally doesn't confide in their inner goings-on, in that small little group, but I think he was in a weak frustrated moment. He had told me that this little offshoot (which over the years has consisted of about 12 families, give or take a couple) had paid 25K for whatever class Geer was selling at the time. Now keep in mind, this little offshoot runs a class whenever they get a grand total of like, 3 new people. At least that's what it was like when I was going there back in the 90s. All the rest of the "class" were former PFAL grads who went faithfully every night, to fill up the room and make it look good. He was very frustrated by that because he really thought it was a colossal waste of money. What they already had was good enough. (for them, anyway, you know what I mean)

Seriously, they were already supporting a "minister" his wife and two kids, for such a small little group, and now they paid 25 K to run a recorded class for people who have sat through PFAL for the last 30 years? There is just no sense of reality with these people, they are just paying up the nose to keep their little comfort zone intact I guess. Very bizarre, but if that's how they want to spend their money, that's up to them.

Just popped in here and saw this thread. Waydale was the beginning of the Exodus from my offshoot. It did so much for me, and I am thankful it was here. At the offshoot I was attending at the time, I was CONVINCED, that I was a total misfit, totally screwed up, that all these people from the offshoot could SIT and Interpret and Prophecy and they were the true called ones of God in the Sky, and I was just screwed.

I longed for fellowship with my Lord Jesus. They told me if I tried to talk to Him it "Could prove to be fatal" I will never forget that. And I was convinced they were right. Waydale showed me that this teensie weensie little offshoot, in Naperville, Il. were the ones who were the misfits. NOT me. Not that I did not have my problems, I did, and still do.

But once I was bold enough to venture out to other various churches, YEARS LATER...I learned one thing...There are THOUSANDS of people out there JUST LIKE ME!!! I felt that although a church might not be a right fit for me..they were still normal people looking for answers in their lives! And nobody had to "prove themselves" by "Speaking in tongues" and Prophecy. Their were other concerns that "REAL" churches are aware of. At least the healthy ones.

I wish I could go back to these people, and tell them, If God hasn't blessed your "ministry" "bible clique...coffee clique.." in 20 odd years, don't you think there might be something WRONG with your little group? I know God doesn't count numbers as far as His Glory, but My God Man! If your old fellowship hasn't grown in over 20 years, you do NOTHING for the community that's allowing you a break on rental space and taxes, your agenda is your great doctrine, which has not held up in the eyes of the Lord, over and over and over again.... When will you wake up?

Thanks for letting me vent.

Well, one of these days, I'm going to tell you about an experience I had, which I'm not going to put out in a public forum. Perhaps we can all start a PT with each other. Hey, I want every one to know I so appreciate every response here, but what happened yesterday was my brother called me, and I don't want to get into it all now, but he has been taking taking care of my 93 year old mama for a few months now (he lives in California, I'm in Chicago burbs) and she's got hospice care now, and the hospice guy told him that if anyone is out of state to come visit her like NOW. So I'm still in a daze but I think I"m going to be gone for the next several days so I can spend a couple days with my mama. Just so you know what happens if I disappear for a few days..which I do anyway, lol, but I'm kind of in a daze about this. I thought my mama would always be there for me, you know? Anyway, I just thought I should mention this, God bless and love you all, be back in a few days, this has been so interresting!

And Steve yeah, I hear you on the devil spirit/demon thing. I always used to cringe when somebody referred to the being as a demon, because I was taught the "proper" word was devil spirit. Oh I was so Way brained, lol. It wasn't until I started actually reading the bible and saw the word demon being constantly used that I started to realize that their called DEMONS for the most part it seems. I still have to correct my old way brain from time to time it's so ingrained, lol.

Steve Geisha and socks, I just love your replies. A quick note on demon possession though. The Way, as far as I could see, in my opinion, was I believe pretty accurate in how it works. I don't believe it's necessary to possess a person's mind full time, they can fly in and out of a person's mind. It has nothing to do with Holy Spirit. I have Holy Spirit (I hope) and I can sin about 10 times before I get my first cup of coffee in the morning. There are times when my thought life SUCKS. But when people, even Christians, can start opening doors, out of ignorance, arrogance, stupidity, perhaps start fooling around with Ouija boards, giving into their own carnal desires, oh hell, anything where they just keep getting deeper and deeper into something they shouldn't, well....

It's like that story about the frog, I don't know if it's true or not. But supposedly, if you drop a frog in boiling water, he'll jump right out. But if you put a frog in water, and turn it on to boil, he will just sit there and be cooked to death. The point is, I believe the devil possesses the mind, not your soul, and certainly cannot touch your Holy Spirit. However, it is up to us to guard our thoughts. We can't help it if a bad thought comes to us, but we don't have to let it nest.

I remember Ted Bundy saying that when he got the urge to kill, it was like something dark and alien entered him, and he couldn't help himself. He was subjected to devil possession at the devils will. I'm not sure what led him to that, but it sure as hell didn't come out of the blue. It's not like he was some happy go lucky guy one moment, and turned into a serial killer the next. HE did SOMETHING to open the doors to that. I don't know if it was violent porn he masturbated too as a child, or what kind of psycological problems he had, but something turned him into what he was, and made him a perfect host for some demon.

I am sorry, I appreciate ALL your responses, and am going back to reading them all. It's just taking me awhile, and I got off on another tangent. :)

All I can say is Amen to that socks. I should print that out for the next time I hear somebody say that "God is in control of everything" Because I really don't think they have thought that through. satan, wants to control everything, beginning with our minds. That's another subject for another time. The idea that Christians cannot get possessed. I hear that a lot. I don't think that people think of the difference between Holy Spirit, which the devil cannot touch, and peoples minds, which if Christians can sin, they certainly can fall to the point where they can open the doors to possession....but I digress again, lol. ;)

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to go off on another tangent, but it does bring up some other interesting questions, and as I'm reading the bible, I'm reading about God's chosen people, who made some really BAD choices! Especially in Hebrews Hall of Faith. lol. I mean, one of Jesus's own ancestors was a lady of the evening. And Sampson? Oh my gosh. His big glorious moment was also his last! Anyway, I'm getting OT. Sorry!

Thank you WW. Very well thought out answer, especially to the idea that satan, the serpent, took God by surprise, which sounds sort of like Wommack is suggesting. That's nonsense. I sort of lean towards the idea that God does not micromanage every facet of our lives...I've actually had one lady in a church group (non-way) tell me that God knows even what color of socks I'm going to wear tomorrow. I don't completely agree (thought I don't know for sure) that He knows every single thing that is going to happen, but I read once in some teaching that it's more comparable to Bobby Fisher, the chess king. God has so many moves up His sleeve that no matter what you throw at Him, He's going to have a plan. Lots to think about, appreciate the responses.

Hmmm, after digesting this, I am sort of leaning towards the fact that God allowed satan to be in the garden of Eden. I watch Andrew Wommack, and I really enjoy the guy, but on certain things I believe he is off. He believes that satan was actually an angel put there to help Adam and Eve, and then turned out to deceive both God and man when he had the chance. I know he has his own interpretations to support that belief, but like I said, as much as I really think he's on top of certain things, I think he's way off on that one. Reading the responses has been enlightening and interesting. I guess I will just have to ponder this some more and search the scriptures. If God wants to enlighten me further, that's up to Him I suppose. Sigh. But The responses most of you have given me have helped tremendously. :)

The over arching lesson to me isn't that man continually fails or succeeds by God's design and direction but rather that God directs man to choose and to choose rightly. Mankind will never choose 100 per cent perfectly all the time, every time. It is essential that we then rely on certain things - grace, mercy, forgiveness and restoration. This cycle seems to be what happens, over and over. When that process is ignored or refused, there is failure. Where it's accepted and lived, success.

An incredible thing to me is the idea that a Satan, a brilliant creation of God who knows God and his own brilliance, would decide to alter, change, ignore, overcome, defeat any part of that. It seems - weird. Yet, I can do the very same thing, do things at times that are counter to what I know is the best thing to do, not out of ignorance but by choice. Questions like - why wouldn't God forgive the Devil? Maybe the Devil doesn't want to be forgiven. Why didn't Adam throw it all down and say "I am sorry! Please, can't we learn from this and I won't do it again?" Maybe Adam didn't want to, maybe Adam was like many of us today who, against better inclination and guidance, seek to go against the better of two choices...? Genesis can seem like a silly morality play that is so impossibly abnormal that it isn't viable....but if I just look at history it's not quite as silly in it's premises and outcomes as it might seem at first glance.

This.........leaves some things unanswered, unaccounted for I know. But maybe, food for thought.

AWESOME observation. And that thing about the devil not wanting forgiveness, perhaps he can't be forgiven I don't know, but that is just the ultimate of Pride and Arrogance. You can see that in certain people too. Arrogant to the end. Wasn't Jezebel like that? lol.

How can I put this nicely....?

I"m deleting this all out - enough. The topic is interesting, rottiegrrl, I see why you and others are scarce. :o/>/> I hope I contributed something to the mix, perhaps another time it can be discussed.

Well I'm glad you didn't delete your comments! I enjoyed them! :)

If God is in relationship to us, I don't believe we do define Him through intelligence alone. How smart would one have to be to know God? Is anyone that intelligent? That is what we did in TWI ....try to define God through the text with intellectual assent to a form of knowledge.......

Knowing God is found in the relationship we have with Him. He is very able to reveal Himself ...... Read the Psalms if you are genuinely interested in what a relationship with God looks like.

AMEN geisha, and sadly that is what the offshoots are still doing. Very well said. And idolizing things like speaking in tongues and their brand of prophecy, when Jesus is crying for them to get to know the WORD, and walk in love and care for people. Those offshoots have so many problems you can't even imagine. But....I digress. Another subject for another time.

I don't think Adam wanted to be God's peer. I think Adam wanted to KNOW as much as God knows so that Adam could use that knowledge to manipulate God into using God divine POWER to do whatever Adam wanted God to do.

That's how religion's evil twin always works.

The Way International didn't use the image of a supernatural snake guarding a tree of divine knowledge, the way the ancients did. The image that Wierwille explicitly used in PFAL was that of a camaera. You have to focus your believing, becoming clear and concerned, in order to receive anything from God.

But a more appropriate illustration for the process TWI taught would have been a vending-machine-God. You put your faith into the slot, you push the button indicating you selection, and God has to give you whatever you want. "How many of God's promises do YOU know?"

Love,

Steve

You have a good point about Adam. And yeah you are right about everything you said about the Weirwille/PFAL/Way/offshoot brand of believing. Took me many, many years to get corrected on that, and I'm STILL not there yet. It's HIS will be done, NOT mine. I don't know how they could (and other churches as well) become so messed up on that when the bible is FULL of people not getting their own way, or when they do it their own way, they suffer the consequences. God can clean up the mess, but by no means is He the magic genie in the sky who grants you wishes. Amen.

Socks, thank you so much for that answer. Because that really has shed some interesting new light for me!! I always thought that "god of this world" mean satan was in control of it, but what you says makes total sense. Although I have to say, I sort of cringe when I go to church (I go to different ones cause I'm still getting my feet wet about finding the "right" one for me) and I hear the people say that God is in control of everything, because I just don't know that in this world He is yet. We are still fighting a battle, but, that's another subject. But I really like what you said, about being the head guy of sin and disobedience, and it's a bit like a rabbit trick. Interesting! Thank you! :)

Good question, Rottiegrrrl...this will have a lot of "I don't know" in it...

"Serpent" is the hebrew word nachash and means shiny, or shiny one. God curses the nachash and says that now more than any animal will it be cursed, denigrated to a low state, on the earth. This seems to fit with this creatures' future on the earth - Satan is referred to as "god of this world" or this age, 2 Cor. 4:4. He is associated with "this age", this period of earth and heaven.

Given all that Genesis describes as God's curse and the other ways that Satan is referred to, I think it's wrong that theology gives Satan the role of god or ruler of the earth as in one who is in control of it. The bulk of scripture doesn't paint that picture, really. Rather I see God's description as Satan being kind of the Head Guy of Sin, of disobedience of and willfulness against God. So it's not a title of authority and ownership, but rather a title of function. As if to say, "Sin? Disobey God? That's Satan, he's THE guy on that".

He has a title then but no a true claim to God's creation. Influence but not ownership. And Satan is cursed, and the lowest of all earth's creation, animals, etc. and that would in fact - include man if I understand that - and therefore - kind of SOL and no paddle. When I really look at what the Bible says the "Devil" is not one to be feared and whatever he really is - it's mostly a kind of rabbit trick going on. But it's a very weird, twisted kind of trick, that would seem to be so warped by any human standards as to be scarey, for want of a better word, as it's the opposite of what God wants - life, growth, procreation. Thus, the tendency to promote Satan to a higher position, even though God's condemned him to a much lower one.

So the presence of a "shiny one", possibly an angelic presence that would have physical brilliance, fits. Not a serpent/snake. What exactly? Cant' say, exactly.

What this nachash was doing there, have to come back to, again, some observations on scripture, with some I dunno's - will have to come back to this later. Hope this makes sense, for consideration at least.

Thank you geisha. That really is something to ponder. the whole, "God allowed it" thing. You may have a point there. That's another thing I tend to hear when I go to church, God can allow evil to happen. They seem to take that from the book of Job, and though I close my ears to that, perhaps you have a point there about imposing our own moral standards on a Righteous God. Sheesh. So much to learn, so little time in this life. No wonder we have to take so many things of faith. :( :)

I think the simple answer is that God allowed it. . . . God allowed him to be there. Even Satan is in subjection to God. The question of why God allowed this brings up all kinds of interesting moral questions and I think how we consider and answer them reveals much about our understanding and relationship with God. These are good things to consider RottieGrrrl .... in my world anyway.

There is much more to these accounts than just some life lesson in mythology. Where you might want to start is with God's attributes and character and ask yourself why He would allow this. The temptation is to impose our morality on God instead of starting from the place of His rightness....that is when we miss the wonderful things this account reveals. My two cent and probably what it is worth.

Be wary of knee-jerk responses and answers that easily dismiss the majesty of God.

How can I say this more clearly?

We KNOW you think it's a myth.

We disagree.

We're aware that it can be framed so as to resemble myths to a remarkable degree.

If I was bored enough, I could do that with a lot of events from the news from

different time-frames.

You already called it "MYTHOLOGY."

Some of us disagree.

The original poster is asking questions that go in completely the opposite

direction than you want to go. Even if you're convinced she's completely

wrong, provincial, and under-educated, can't you accept that this is her

right? She can choose to pursue questions you consider silly, and avenues

of inquiry you think don't even exist.

She's not passing judgement on you for discarding what she considers to be

deeper truths than the sociological theories of the day can offer.

Can you return the favor? And if not, can you at least leave her alone

about it and just judge her without hitting 'reply'?

It's not like she's pushing vpw worship or anything....

WOW! Amen WW! And Thank you for that. I will continue reading the responses now, lol. :)

Got your email WW, thanks! Waysider I know, but seeing as the entire fall of mankind was because of this, It's a burning question I have in my heart. I know that not every question we have is going to be answered to our satisfaction, but I'd like to have at least a clue on certain things. :)/>

Got your email WW, thanks! Waysider I know, but seeing as the entire fall of mankind was because of this, It's a burning question I have in my heart. I know that not every question we have is going to be answered to our satisfaction, but I'd like to have at least a clue on certain things. :)/>/> Besides, it's interesting to see what different perspectives there are out there.

And I still don't even know how to edit properly either it seems.

For some reason I thought I was starting a private conversation with WW, and either I don't know what I'm doing, or ....I don't know what I'm doing. BUT. here is my BIG question that I have a problem with. Why would God allow the devil to be in the Garden to tempt Adam and Eve anyway? I heard one TV preacher say he believes that the serpent was really supposed to be put there by God as an angel to help Adam and Eve, and instead turned on God and took advantage of them. Without getting off on a tangent about that teaching, it does NOT make sense to me that God would allow a sneaky evil being to tempt them. What if satan wasn't there? Would they have not stood at least a better chance? The TV preacher said that would be like throwing your child onto the highway to play. But even though I think this guy is OFF on this subject, I kind of see his point. And okay, if anyone has the patience with my crazy questions. What would happen if Eve had eaten the apple but not Adam. Would we still be okay? Sheesh. I know. I guess she would have died but he wouldn't have. I don't know. But you know, these are honest questions I have. Anyone? Take your time cause I know poeple have lives (unlike me) but I really would appreciate any input. :)

Feel free to fire away.

BTW,

I'm well aware that I expounded at length without providing the verses.

I did that because it would have taken a few pages and significant exposition

all the way through. IMHO, satan's history is not meant to be a line of

inquiry for us, so it's not that easy to track. So, I'd need to get into,

a bit, why certain verses are read as references to him when they don't

have any of his names all over them.

Personally,

I think it's a shame that the Bible was not written like a 21st century

textbook. True, it would have been MUCH less useful for people from the

previous millenia, but for me here and now, it would be a LOT easier

to dig out the more obscure details.

;)/>

I am going to fire away, just got back on the computer after a week of flood watch here, anyway, I will start the PT with you. and I AGREE about the 21st century stuff. I try to read easier versions, but I still get confused about certain things., sigh, okay, on to the PT :)

Yeah I do have another question, but I don't want to bleed you guys to death because of my pea-brain. So I guess I'll leave it be for now.....

good grief Steve Lortz, I never knew about Leviathan the sea monster! Thanks!

Waysider, thanks for the link, looks interesting! Human without bean: (what bean are you without?lol) thanks for the contrib. :)/>

This stuff is a LOT to digest. So I'm taking my time here....I'm reading everybody's stuff.

WW I have to say, you are quoting parts of the OT I didn't even know existed. MAKING THIS REAL HOMEWORK FOR ME! lol. :)