Al Poole

Run Garth.......... RUN!

the tree gods told me YOU are the one O Garthy Garth!

WOW... and I do mean WOW!!

Refiner... wow! Garth ! wow ! ( I always knew you held a high opinion of yourself... but WOW! and a high opinion of your "intellect" but WOW!

Gee... I guess it won't be long till we know eh?hmmmm ... ya know it's kinda like poker.... how right are ya?? how big-a hand do ya got?? enough to go "all in"?

Just remember this , if there's no absolute standard for truth you have no right to say I can't do whatever the hell I please... even if it means sacrificing YOU to the tree god. Cause that's MY beliefs... and I'm bigger and better than you. Don't like that eh? To bad...

Texas???

Hey Mikey....

Got a real love fest going for ole craiggers don't you...

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Since the context of this thread is so negative and speculative, I might as well indulge a little. I have often wondered how much worse things would have gone if anyone else but you were placed in the top position in 1982. We have seen in scripture that God picks the best He has available to do such demanding jobs as running a ministry to serve God’s people.

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If God were doing the picking... I'm sure it would have been someone else. GOD DIDN"T PICK wee p w picked...

I know you think they're the same but .... NOT

Maybe.... just maybe.... when twi presents "who they are and what it is they do"... Mr Pat will be able to dredge up the facts concerning recent out of court settlements made by twi and show what they really do and that the bot were complacent in their actions concerning certain on going criminal sexual coersion.

.....okay it's a long shot I know, but one can hope!! I still think somebodies need to go to prison over that stuff!

Thanks guys...

Ex... nice to be able to disagree and not get called possessed... eh???

Okay.... to put it to a point... one word answer to the question ... "was waycorps training a scam?" Unqualified YES!

When viewed from the perspective of it's PROMOTION from the "leadership".

Yes, we were told it was for one thing one day and another the next.

Yes, the "commitment" was re-defined to suit the purpose of the moment... (Hmmm purpose of the moment... same as present truth??)

Does that make it a scam? I'd have to say so.

YET... with those things acknowledged, what of the individual experiences.

IMO... You get from things what you put into them. I saw fellow wc that "played" the system... I saw wc that were "by the book". I think most of these people were "just that way". They would have been that way no matter what they were in, military, college, tech school... take your pick. Most people by their early twenties (which most of us were) are pretty well formed in their personalities and work habits. The real question is not so much could wehave learned the (good) things we learned in the wc... BUT rather would we?

For example:

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About the food...all I said was that my rations were cut in half. It WAS healthier food than what I was used to and the reduced portions were healthier for me too. Between the food and the running, I was in fabulous shape. I went into the corps weighing 190 and came out at 155. Today I am about 180...too many cheeseburgers and beer.

The truth of the matter is that I could have gotten the same results following Jack LaLaine instead of veepee wierwille...and saved a lot of money in the process.

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BUT...WOULD you have followed Jack LaLaine??? Would you have been motivated enough? Had the desire, and determination?? I say NO. Because the motivation to ... DO came from within. It was a desire to be better than you would otherwise ..... for the purpose of serving God in the future. At least that was the all encompassing philosophy of the things we did.

Compare that experience with this one:

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To this day I have written many short stories and newspaper articles. The skill itself was not gained in The Way Ministry, but the inspiration occurred there and some motivation as well.

I understand what you mean, Hope about many principles being obtainable elsewhere, but there was no possible way I personally would have persued any form of college other than The Way College/Corps program, because I was as intensely comitted to the same ideals as you were: Word Over The World and all that we believed in.

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Because of a personal desire to be better than he would have otherwise, he strove to change, learn, and incorporate the good things he developed while in rez. AND continues to write for personal enjoyment and the enrichment of others. But by his own admission was a lousy student pre wc. He developed his writing ability after encouragement from people he highly reguarded.... Would that have happened for him had he not gone wc??? NO cause the probabilty of him ever writing anything for anyone was virtually nil!

People skills...

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We can play "what if" forever - but the fact is that the Corps program doesn't hold a patent on the benefits some of us may have received from it.

I could have taken a public speaking course at a community college and gotten credit for it! Or I could even have taken the Dale Carnegie class directly from that company.

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YEP you sure could've.... and six months later be little changed. To incorporate change a person has to; see the need to change, and maintain that change. I venture a guess that most people left to their own habit patterns rarely maintain much personal change.

REAL personality change, habit pattern changes, RARELY occurs without serious outside stimuli that can be internalized by the recipient.

I.E. Divorce, death, birth, accident, being fired, going bankrupt, _________________, (fill in your own life impacting event.) Adopting a belief system!!!! BEING IN REZ.

We were expected to change, and maintain it. Some did... JL still writes... some didn't. Some have rejected everything they learned and hold a bitterness instead. SAD SAD SAD.

I know I owe much of what I am and what I have accompllished in this life to my twi experience, wc included. The innate abilities latent within me were seen and developed by people who cared. Would these same abilities been encouraged and cultivated in some other venue, college? military? ____________ ?

Never be able to say... probably not. I say that because I know the mindset it takes to change something in my life. I know the motivation it takes. We were all motivated (suposedly) by a desire to serve God. Gee... can't get much higher motivation than that???

That that motivation was used and abused by evil men was NOT our faults... our hearts were pure. Our hearts were honest... how else could we have done what we did... dendured what we did... C'mon !!!! we were motivated by a higher calling and purpose...

So.... yes it was a scam in one sense...

BUT for most, you determine whether you won or lost.

Oh yes! Often...

Lessss ssseeeeeee this really cute girl I knew that refinished FURNITURE!!! wowee zowee!!! Da ummmm

C'mon Dot!!! (girlfriend you got too much time on your hands!!!)

okay... yeah I do wonder how life turned out for one pycho inparticular... but that's the only one.

I am so blessed (yeah I hate to use that word but I am blessed ) with my wife I have no room for reminicing about "what ifs".

Dot... such kind words...

Dot and Ex10, great observations about peoples/twiggers expectations from "corps". Sometimes no matter what we did it was never enough.

So how long do you let these "wonderful believers" ride/skate/coast/....drain you of every ounce of vitality you have????? At some point a baby stands and walks on his own. Right?? Thus there WERE believers that were dealt with seemingly harshly. But the observer who thought that, probably hadn't had 5 phone calls in two weeks at 3am from this "wonderful believer" that just couldn't/wouldn't handle their own problems.

So... yeah, some people got screamed at... somebody tells me for three years they want to change but never does anything TO change... sorry I'M GONNA TELL EM THE TRUTH!!!

You know em... lesssss seeeeeee um... the woman that's been married 3 times... and she's considering her forth, and they've all been abusers... and the 4th intended is too... but she can't see what EVERYBODY else can so easily.

(Please don't take offense ladies, this one was just real easy to come up with spur of the moment... it applies to men as well.)

WD... VERY astute! LOTS of people want others to make the decision for them/tell them what to do.... thus releaving themselves of any responsibility for the outcome. How many times did wc do that (and have it thrown back in their face...) Because

a: they were on an ego trip and felt flattered because it fed their ego

b: they thought (only God knows why) they shouldbe able to answer all the questions AND really thought they were helping that person. "why certainly you should go corps, God called you to be corps".

No God didn't.You just think it looks fun but don't want to take the blame if you get there and hate it... leaves you an easy out in your own mind.

So in some ways wc were screwed either way. If you didn't have enough insight to determine who was who.... AND VERY FEW OF US DID, you resorted to "stock" treatment. You mimiced other "leaders" you liked/respected/thought were cool.... God help the poor soul if you mimiced a "bad" leader!!

I close with this thought...

The wc was like ANY group, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, United Way... It was PEOPLE... there were...The good, the bad, and the ugly!

Galen... Do I detect a chip on your shoulder?? After all this time??

Get four people together... you'll have "the good, the bad, and the ugly"... and one extra.

Who, is which, will depend on who you ask, and when.

I was "in" from 78 to 86. Saw each. One observer sees one thing another something different. I dare say the same could be said of the navy. What's good for one EM may not bare the same results in another. So do you categoricaly (sp) condemn the whole officer corps???? I think not.

In retrospect we now see the corporate entity that underlied what was twi. But at that time we didn't see it. So we didn't realize what was truely going on.

In 18 years you didn't see every "leader". You can't condemn them all. I had some GREAT "leaders." One in particular recognized, and helped me develop, abilities I never knew I had. AND... I am still friends with this man 25 years later! I owe MUCH of what I am, and have achieved, to what he did for me 25 years ago.

You imply that some leaders were too hard on people or just hard with people. SO here's a guy that stands up and says "help me, I'm tired of living like this and experiencing all this pain, failure, broken relationships, lost jobs, (take your pick)." He says "help me PLEASE... I'm tired of being a loser!!!" WHAT DO YOU DO?

Helping someone change 20, 30, 40 years of a lifestyle isn't always easy. AND please keep in mind I'm NOT talking about getting them to conform to lcm's way cult lifestyle that evolved through the 80's and 90's. I'm just talking about helping someone incorporate basic christian principles into their life.

Yeah... there were some mean people promoted to leadership positions. They were neither Godly or loveing. Yeah, some were abject evil, users, abusers, self serving in every way, and they still are. But they weren't all that way. In later years more and more of them were... but not all, and not always.

This whole micro-management thing just blows me away... That real grown up adults would submit to this crap astounds me. Yes, we had some of this crap in-rez but that was "under their roof" so to speak and I just went along with it. But "Intimate schedules" ... c'mon !!!!

It almost makes me sad to have left so quietly. I almost feel like I missed the fun of getting in some idiots face and screaming louder than they could. (I did learn from the best... R*lp* Dub**ky and J*** M**n ! AND I still love them for teaching me)... but I digress... intimate schedules indeed!!!!

If you're still "in" and want reason to leave... or you're sitting on the fence...

ask the "ministry" doctrine on adultery.

Scripture is clear! twi will dance and dance...

Makes you go hhmmmmmmmmmmmm ?!?!

Yo WD

I think that question w a question idea is/was pretty smart... but only would've worked on the "old, old. timer" leaders which I don't think there are too many still around.

Any body that's come along in the last 10-15 years doesn't know ANY scripture. Couldn't give you a "chapter and verse" to save their life.

Maybe I'm twisted but I REALLY want more excerpts from Socks time sheet!!!

Maybe Mel will follow up with "the Power" and show the ressurected Christ and him appering outta no where and walking into the room through the door etc etc etc.... wouldn't hollywood and all the critics REALLY love that!!!

THAT would be spectacular! One can hope!

here ARE some stats:

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Exposure Category Male Female Total

Male-to-male sexual contact 420,790

Injection Drug Use 240,268

Male-to-male sexual contact and injection drug use 59,719

Heterosexual contact 135,628

Other* 20,869

* Includes hemophilia, blood transfusion, perinatal,

and risk not reported or not identified.

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Roughly 82% of AIDS/HIV from behavior related sources.

Jesusfreaky.........

"AIDS isn't the gay disease anymore"

No I haven't seen any stats lately.... but then ... have you?????? PLEASE by all means share then with me, us. In 1995 CDC figures showed 90%+ of the cases were homosexuals and IV drug users.... (I think the actual # was 95% but will be conservative )

hmmmmm .... lesssss seeeeee

okay then it's not the "gay disease" and LUNG CANCER IS NOT THE SMOKERS DISEASE EITHER????

although only 50-60% of lung cancer victims were smokers.

Yeah right.....

So... WHO can the states sue NOW??? because this (in the overwhelming number of cases) is a behavior related disease.... like smoking... and the states incur costs of treatment... SURELY somebody can be sued!!!!!

Okay zix....

............... just watch

BTW... take a look at how much health care costs have risin ... lately... the last ten years have out-paced the previous 50 years.

makes you go hhhmmmmmmmmm?????

I am a-mazed........

Doesn't anyone get it????

This is about MONEY!!!!!!!!!! The homosexual agenda is HEALTH CARE, surviviors estates, etc, it's about MONEY!!!!

You think health insurance is unaffordable now??? Wait till the cost of treating AIDS begins to be "spread". Oh yeah baby.... and before the ACTUAL costs are figured ... we'll be paying for the ESTIMATED costs...

Currently insurance compamies can exclude "pre-existing conditions" but when it's a "spouse" in a company policy... all bets are off.

Yeah.... and you can bet this is all a prelude to government sponsored universal health care... Brought to you by... the same folks that bring you:

the Post Office

the Court/justice system

airport security

your car tags

$10,000 toilet bowls

etc

etc

etc

Everything else said about "gay marriage" is SMOKE.... to incite emotions... it's all about MONEY.

Sorry megan... I don't buy the psychology lie. Spanking doesn't teach a child to hit. That has only been true in the last 30, 40 years when the text books got re-written.

BUT... I'm in the minority... I still believe what the Bible says about raising children... who am I to argue/disagree with "all the wisdom of man thru the ages." BTW what does your psych professor say about a 14 year old (that has NEVER been spanked) who gets in your face and threatens YOU with physical harm if you don't:

hand over the car keys (even though they don't have a drivers license).

give them as much cash as they think they should have.

steals from your purse, wallet, own home

uses force whenever they wish to get whatever they wish

What do they say about this individual??? Hmmm?

Sorry for the digression and de-railment......

NOW BACK TO OUR REGULAR TOPIC

mstar is too slick... I saw "republicans"

caught ya...

I happen to know there's a "clinton" spitit too... it doesn't know what the definition of "is" is.... LOL

Yep, Mel's got GUTS! I hope he makes a ba-zillion with this movie. Can't twait to see it!

Okay haven't seen it yet but there sure is a big stink being raised already. As I understand it the Jewish community is really "up in arms" over this one. Am I missing something?

jARDINERO:

MEGA MEGA MEGA DITTOS

ABSOLUTELY

POSITIVELY

My favorite was ( and this is from the "old days" pre 86... ) "the "class" (PFAL) costs us money to put on ... way more than the $100 it costs you to take it"

Yeah right! how's that? My house free refreshments... my utilities my everything volunter labor etc. etc. etc.

7 people at 100 a head... $700 bucks for some printed materials that cost less than a buck or two per book... c'mon!

twi made a killing on EVERYTHING they did.

MAYBE they broke even on the "rock" maybe...

Evan... did hq make money on the ROA??? I bet they did.

I would like to know where they are too!

krizevad... do I know you? .. you me?

I was in Odessa around then. E mail me.