Oakspear

First, "Ken"...I saw your initial post before you edited it. What did you mean by "I went to The Way and graduated in 1985"?Second, your writing style, as little of it as I have seen, is remarkably like your son's. Now, to address your "points", such as they are. Fired by The Way? What are you talking about? People here left TWI for a variety of reasons, very, very few left because they were fired. But if you were involved in The Way back in the 80's, you'd know that. Granted, some of the comments are reflexive, based on bad experiences, but a great number of us believe the way we do about Mr. Wierwille's "teachings" because we have examined them and found them wanting. Most of us are here because we thought and continue to think on our own. We have come to a variety of points of view regarding The Way, Wierwille, PFAL, and even the bible. Agree or disagree, we read the posts here, and post our own, because that is what we have freely decided to do. Wrong comments? Some of the comments are just opinions, but many are amply documented, often from The Way's publications. :blink:

While there are a few people here who spent considerable time with Mr. Wierwille, most of us are basing our opinions on multiple sources. Many people here, including me, couldn't believe any of the negative things said about Vic when we first heard them. However, after hearing and considering the evidense, we changed our minds. Some of us heard and considered the evidense, and still revere Wierwille. We disagree, but at least they looked at and reasoned through the evidense. You, my friend, have not considered the evidense. Have you read the threads that WordWolf recommended? They lay out some facts from Ol' Vic's own mouth. I think I'll go with what my parents said: The Way is a cult

Why didn't you define "Roman"? How closely did your parents associate with Mr. Wierwille?

I guess you're not joking :wacko:

Look it up in Websters each word by itself The Holy Roman Catholic Church Tells me what it says The Sinless Universal Place of Public Worship Yes that is what they call trust, I trust my parents over everone here. ckmckeon If you're joking, hah, hah, I get it :lol: If you're not kidding, then you could use some brushing up on your dictionary skills if you think that The Sinless Universal Place of Public Worship is the definition of the Holy Roman Catholic Church, despite each word being defined by what you came up with. As I said, if you were joking, forget that i said anything :P

Nope. we are asking you to think for yourself. I don't know your parents, so without any information to the contrary I'll assume that they are good people. But even good people can be wrong, can be decieved. WordWolf mentioned a couple of threads that talk about Wierwille's early life and the early days of The Way and its predecessor organization. I would recommend reading them. Most of the information is directly quoted from books that Wierwille authorized, with many direct quotes from Wierwille himself. Not what other people said he said, but books that were printed when he was alive and had full control. Of course youy're welcome to your own opinion, but what is that opinion based on? What? You read that in a dictionary?

Is there "piling on" when some people post an unpopular opinion? Sure Are those who are vocal in their admiration of some of what was practiced and taught in TWI called names? Undoubtedly Do some of those who agree band together against the minority? You bet Welcome to life However....I've seen posters from all sides (not all posters, but all pov's are represented) resort to name-calling, ganging up on dissenters, and over-simplifying the opposing viewpoint. Not all posters who agree on one thing agree on all issues. For example, rascal and I vehemently disagree on one specific issue, and have gone at it hammer and tongs on an occassion or two, but on other issues we are of one mind.

Claiming that any group or "mob" is a church just because the word ecclessia refers to a mob as well as "the church" is a misunderstanding of language. "Ecclessia" literally meant "called out"; additionally according to Thayer, it meant called out to a public place for a specific purpose; it came to mean specifically the assembly of Christians, whether at a specific time and place, or in general. In time, the meaning of the word, as well as the various words that were translated from it, no longer carried the broader meaning of "called out", but rather the specific meaning of the "assembly of Christians". Asserting that Grease Spot is a church is to use a Wierwillite definition that is at odds with the actual definition of the word "church".

Name one specific thing that Rev. Graham teaches

System of religious worship - check, the Way was and is such Devoted attachment to a person - check, Wierwille was the person that we were devoted and attached to Listen ckmkeon, I know this is all new to you, and there is some disagreement about whether TWI is a cult, but we don't know the meaning?

If Wierwille's teachings were approached in this manner, I'd have less of a problem. Aside from Mike's claim of godbreathedness, Wierwille's "laws" were viewed as unassailable. For my money, "Believing = Receiving" is a good thing to consider, like "Look Before You Leap" and other aphorisms, but not something that will affect every aspect of my life.

I guess my apology will be coming soon. B) In 2001 the Lesbian Devil & Eve "teaching" was one of the things that I questioned. I told TH, our region coordinator, that somebody would have to explain it to me, or that the Trustees would need to repudiate the teaching. You would have thought that I suggested human sacrifice

That's a good story eagle. I was at ACSp '92, and vaguely remember hearing that "hostess" stuff, but not what caused it.Anyway, in 2001 I was publically fighting against some TWI doctrines, in particular some of the things taught in WayAP: "The Face of the Deep" and "The Original Sin of Mankind". Despite knowing that I was visiting Waydale & Greasespot (but not yet aware that I was posting) our Twig Coordinator let me teach and lead meetings regularly. I "taught" both of these subjects completely different from the way Martindale did, and got away with it at first. Eventually, poking my head out of the gopher hole got me thrown out.

"Immutable" means that it does not change.

Apparently it is:

Uh huh

Oh, we listen all right. Post all the verses that you want, but just posting them without explanation doesn't make much of a point, does it?And you may not like being called on your spelling and/or grammar, but cleaning it up and using understandable puncuation does make you a bit more understandable

So, why do we think that "for our learning" excludes being written "to us"?

ah, the non-sequiter club has been heard from!

this sounds like a science fiction movie Buckaroo Banzai! all the aliens were named John!

By the way, giving examples and analogies to illustrate a point is not off topic.

I knew I liked that guy!

Like Evan said, Trinitarians don't believe that there are three gods. That is a misrepresentation. I do think that a biblical case for unitarianism can be more easily made than trinitarianism, but there are verses and sections of scripture that lean toward both. You'd do well to argue your point straight from the bible, rather than from Wierwille;'s assumptions. :huh: What? You're talking about the gospel of John, right? If we're having a biblical discussion , why not use the bible? Funny thing though. You never see the Romans 10:9-10 "formula" used in Acts, anywhere. Why do you believe that? Okay, so why had we "better not" quote John? Does this necessarily mean what Wierwille said it means? So....why is it there? Good for you and good luck We know the rules, and we'll disregard them when we're feeling cranky May she bless you as well

I think it was both :P I do think you're correct on this allan, the so-called "keeping 'The Word' simple" was one of the big attractions for Wierwille and PFAL. However we disagree on whether 'The Word' really is simple. Much of Wierwille's teaching involved picking one point of view and ignoring or belittling or explaining away all evidense to the contrary. Of course, he's not the only one to do that, there are plenty of other denominations out there who base their existence on a narrow view of scripture.

Mike, correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but regarding your "not all necessarily" exposition: This is another area where the interpretation that you place on things is wholly dependent on a pre-conceived notion that PFAL is god-breathed. You use the idea that PFAL is god-breathed to show that the section of the book indicated that Wierwille is claiming god-breathed status for the book; then use the statement in the book to show how PFAL was claimed as god-breathed by Wierwille. I know how much you love circular reasoning, so I'm sure that you'll send me a case of Leinenkugel just for pointing it out to you IMHO the "not all necessarily" line indicates that he thought that some of what he said would line up with the bible and be equivalent to "thus saith the Lord" just as Luther and the other men that he mentioned did the same. He is quite obviously putting himself in the category of men who could sometimes hit the mark and speak as God directed them, but that there words could not be counted on to be 100% god-breathed, that he reserved for the bible. On another note, I have difficulty accepting your premise that the written PFAL was considered the canon of TWI, rather than just an aid to the filmed class. I recall Wierwille in the advanced class contradicting something that he taught in the foundational, saying that he "had to teach it that way". It was about counterfeiting speaking in tongues. In the AC he say that it could be counterfeited. More on this line of thought tomorrow. i have to go to work