Oakspear
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Posts posted by Oakspear
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Pay no attention to that twit behind the curtain...
If and when you leave, you'll do it in your own good time. Don't let anyone here tell you what you should or shouldn't do regarding leaving (including me if I forget my own advice )
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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OCD #2:
I was in the northeast this summer: NYC, Philly, Boston. People were very nice. (even Chinson)
I was friggin' shocked
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Sanguinetti:How would I describe the mysterious Pawtucket you ask? Well, he is sort of a cross between Paul Bunyon, Fabio, Bill Gates and Mother Teresa. Gee,
Let's hope he doesn't have Mother Teresa's money, Fabio's intellect, Bill Gates' athletic ability, and Paul Bunyan's grasp of modern technology.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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But would the Burger King taste the same as it did in Trenton?
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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If you're driving, I'm about halfway between Denver and Chicago on I-80.
Would love to get together
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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Celebrate Halloween, All Souls and All Saints Day, Samhain or whatever - free from twi
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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Over the months I grew more used to not being in twi any longer. I started making non-Way friends and getting more serious about my work (instead of arranging my work schedule around "ministry events")
I made it through the first round of holidays, Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Year's by working a lot of hours at work, plus the second job, and by some mutual support by a great friend here at Grease Spot. Her call on Christmas Day made my month.
I reconciled with my parents and siblings, aplogizing to them for being a jerk to them while "in". I went to visit them this summer, meeting three nieces, two nephews and a brother-in-law that I had never met before.
On the same trip I stopped to visit several GSers along with their spouses. It was an incredible time to compare notes and see just what life could be outside the Way; it was very encouraging.
Another encouraging bit of news is that although my wife is still very Waybrained and loyal to twi, she has not attended a fellowship for quite a while. She has reasons that I won't discuss here, but oddly, still considers me a "copout" and herself as "being in the household".
The result is that my children do not have to attend fellowships. They did not really want to anyway, and do not at all miss it.
Every day is a new day, full of new challenges and joys. They're a lot better outside the way, than inside.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
[This message was edited by Oakspear on October 24, 2002 at 21:01.]
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I was firmly convinced that you couldn't trust anything that Martindale taught, and soon came to the same conclusion about Wierwille.
This is not to say that I thought that everything that they taught was wrong, just that it would all have to be re-examined, that it couldn't be trusted.
Around this time I started looking into information from various "offshoots", "splinters", etc. I was amazed at how many different conclusion could be drawn, while using the same basic tools taught in PFAL. I came to the conclusion that i couldn't even trust or count on the methods used to study the bible and come to conclusions about it. Add to that the multitude of differing denominations, and I soon came to the conclusion that I couldn't be certain that Christianity in any form was right. I barely hung onto a belief that there was even a God.
That's where I stand now, basically an agnostic: I don't know
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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I was so confused.
I saw with my own eyes the error that was being taught. The STS teachings backed up the syllabus, nothing had changed.
My efforts had uncovered ten pages of errors (not errors of interpretaion, but errors pertaining to what was actually in the text, meanings of words, representations of scientific theories, and faulty logic.)If I could come up with that, I found it hard to be believe that all the top dogs at HQ couldn't find even one thing wrong with anything that Martindale taught.
Martindale's pronouncements as well, like "The Word is over the world", and we are entering into the "promised land of the prevailing Word" were still being acted upon as if they were revelation from God.
I asked a lot of people questions: my wife didn't want to discuss my doubts, so I went to our HFC. He didn't know anything. Eventually I talked directly with John Reynolds, who referred me back to my Region Coordinator, T*m H******s, who supposedly would be able to answer my questions, since he would be teaching WayAP live in my home town. TH insisted that he did not need to check out anything for himself since the Trustees had okayed it, which was good enough for him.
Shortly thereafter I sat through his (TH's) live version of WayAP, which was doctrinally identical to Martindale's. There was no deviation from the syllabus. No doctrinal changes.
Shortly thereafter I was thrown out of twi for "believing that the Trustees were leading the ministry in the wrong direction".
They used my own honest questions against me.
So much for questioning
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
[This message was edited by Oakspear on October 24, 2002 at 20:55.]
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Now, at this time, I still pretty much agreed with VP's (or Bullinger's or whoever's) keys to researching the bible. It was these keys, taught by twi, that I used to find errors and inconsistancies.
I want to emphasize that at this point I was not comparing PFAL and WayAP to mainstream Christianity, or to any other religous system, but comparing their own words to their own words!
Using Vp's and LCM's own standards there were great gaping holes in the fabric of their teachings.
For example, show me one Hebrew text where the first word is "God" as VP claimed. Just one.
Stuff like that just started irking me.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
[This message was edited by Oakspear on October 24, 2002 at 20:50.]
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No one, I mean no one, seemed to know anything.
"Leadership" seemed to want to pretend that nothing had happened. Once Martindale was gone, no one ever mentioned him again. You couldn't talk about it after fellowship. The prevailing mood seemed to be to stick our heads in the sand and pretend that nothing had happened.
For a long time, I just bided my time, hoping that someone was checking out Martindale's pronouncements and classes, while logging into Waydale to get the latest news. I was willing to give them time, since it was a somewhat unique situation.
As the months went by I started getting more and more irritated at the lack of information from "official" Way sources and the growing mountain of stories coming out of Waydale and later GreaseSpotCafe. I gradually grew to trust Waydale as a more credible source than my leadership, especially after I read about Don Wierwille's death on the internet five days before it was announced at fellowship.
In January 2001 a new teaching series was to begin. Each Sunday a different segment of Martindale's The Way of Abundance and Power foundational class would be covered. This would take 24 weeks, and then they would move into the intermediate class.
I decided to start checking the syllabus for accuracy one segment at a time, allowing myself a week per segment so I could follow along with what they were teaching on the STS. I evaluated what Martindale taught by his own standards: the keys to research taught in PFAL and in his own WayAP class. I didn't even begin to take into consideration non-Way points of view. I looked forward to seeing some changes taught on the STS as well.
As I started working my way through the syllabus, the factual errors, misrepresentations, and outright lies began to multiply. I started to see that Martindale frequently claimed that the "original" or "the text" said one thing, but there was absolutely no evidense of his claim. Even concordances, interlinears and lexicons sold and promoted by the Way did not back him up.
There were incredible leaps of illogic where the facts did not add up to the conclusion that he drew.
What really got my attention was when I was asked to teach the segment The Face of the Deep at a fellowship. I worked that subject forward and backward, and, using Way methodology, and assuming that the bible was accurate, I came up with a completely different teaching than what Martindale did. I taught it my way at fellowship, and no one noticed the difference. I even gave the correct definition of the "Big bang" model of the universe, correcting Martindale's incorrect explanation from the syllabus. One person did ask me why I had left out a certain point that Martindale made in the syllabus, and I told her "Because it is not in The Word".
The other main subject that I dissected pretty thoroughly was The Original Sin of Mankind. There was so much "private interpretation" and assorted hogwash in that segment that it was difficult to keep up with!
In investigating Martindale's teachings, I naturally went back to some of Wierwille's teachings that they were based on; I started finding some of the same problems there also.
At this point my faith in the reliability of The3 Way's foundational teaching material was undermined completely.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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The first phase of my questioning involved Martindale's fitness to teach anything.
One of the things Martindale himself taught was that if you were in debt, and not trying diligently to get out of it, God would not give you revelation.
During the time that Martindale was putting together all of his new classes, he was of the opinion that having sex with another man's wife was okay. Is this somehow not as bad as debt? Despite the fact that he later supposedly apologized and everybody kissed and made up, during the time he was researching and teaching these classes, according to his own stated timetable, he was OUT OF FELLOWSHIP.
So, how could he have
1. Been able to accurately put together a foundational class?
2. Been able to recieve the amazing revelation that the "Word" was over the world", and all that went along with that?
3. Been able to spiritually discern the so-called "homo infiltration" of the WOW program and twi in general?
It just doesn't fit, does it?
If there is this big question mark, then shouldn't everything that Martindale taught be subjected to intensive scrutiny, even assume it was wrong until proven otherwise?
The new Board of Trustees apparently didn't think so.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
[This message was edited by Oakspear on October 24, 2002 at 20:39.]
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Keep in mind that during this time, we were forbidden to talk about the lawsuits after fellowship meetings, and most people didn't want to talk about it in private. Local leadership didn't know anything and region and trunk leadership were covering their own butts
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
[This message was edited by Oakspear on November 15, 2002 at 18:53.]
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Something just wasn't right about the explanations we were getting.
At first, we were told that:
1. It was a consensual "affair", it was implied that it was a one-time "affair".
2. It had ended a year previously
3. Martindale had been confronted according to "the Word" and had apologized to all involved
4. He had been forgiven by his wife and the Trustees
5. The Allens had refused his apology and offer of "help" and left
So, if everything had been handled to everyone's satisfaction (except the Allen's) why was Martindale being thrown out? No explanation was ever given. What had happened between the time that Martindale was allowed to remain as a Corps grad in the "research department" and the time he was booted?
Of course, since certain court documents were posted, we saw that it wasn't really consenual, it wasn't a one-time deal, he was still doing it, and that Martindale claimed in his deposition that Rivenbark and other knew about his dalliances.
It just didn't make sense
That was got me started seriously questioning practices and doctrines of twi
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
[This message was edited by Oakspear on October 24, 2002 at 20:36.]
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Initially, even after I began posting, I did not fully believe that I had been involved in a harmful organization.
I rationalized that Martindale had erred, and that the other Trustees were on uncharted ground with this lawsuit (again, I didn't have all the information)- I even expressed admiration with Martindale's decision to resign, reasoning that he was taking the spotlight off the "ministry".
During this time I occassionally posted incidents in various threads, but didn't really jump on an anti-Way bandwagon.
It really wasn't until Martindale was expelled from the Corps and "defrocked", and put on probation, that I began to seriously question what was going on.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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Some, but not all of this is covered to some extent in earlier posts
Although from time to time I had doubts about Way teachings, or thought some things weren't explained in the way, or even had problems with individual leaders, I never seriously considered chucking the whole thing until after the lawsuit announcements.
Things that I did not agree with, or did not understand, I was always willing to "hold in abeyance" until I understood it better.
My first reaction, when I heard the announcement in a "special meeting", was anger. How could Martindale do such a thing? I remember my actions being referred to as "treacherous" when I was put on probation a little over a year earlier, and was resentful that everyone was in a such a forgiving and understanding mood. Before I went home that evening, I had calmed down somewhat , and was in a forgiving mood myself. Of course I was unaware at the time of other allegations, nor did I realize what a butt covering circus it would all become.
That night, despite being told that we didn't need to check the internet for information about the lawsuit, I went to the internet.
I was sick to my stomach.
Over the next few weeks I checked out several anti-Way and ex-Way sites, trying to digest and make sense of the many accusations against Martindale, twi, and even VP Wierwille. Eventually I settled on WayDale because of the frequent updates regarding the lawsuit and the high-level defections.
After a few weeks, I started perusing the forums, seeing the ebb and flow of discussions, and starting to see how real it all was - this just wasn't some anti-cult propaganda by some mainstream church, but stories that had the ring of truth by people like me.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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A short time before I moved away from my wife, I had received emails from several GSers who were in similar situations: people who were out of twi, either in fact or in heart, were posting on Grease Spot, and who had spouses who were "in". I maintained email contact with several of these people.
One of the things that led to my despair, and considering suicide was the feeling that had been hammered into me that I was no good, that everything that had happened to me was because I was a bad person, who had single-handedly screwed up my whole life.
After exchanging emails with one of the aforementioned GSErs, (who will reamain anonymous unless she chooses not to) I realized that my experiences were not unique. I saw similar patterns of manipulation by twi leadership; meddling and interference was in some instances marked by virtually identical words! Our spouses were saying the same or similar things to us.
What this opened my eyes to was a pattern of twi leaders attempting to break marriages as a method of control.
While I am not so naive to think that I had a perfect marriage that would have been fairy tale perfect without twi, I realized what they had done, or attempted to do, and it made me ANGRY.
It also made me realize that although I was flawed, and took responsible for my own problems and their consequenses, I was not a bad person, and I was going to live.
Okay, the suspense is probably killing you: I no longer considered suicide, and I emerged from a two-week roaring drunk in one sane piece.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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My expulsion from the Way and my expulsion from my home happened close enough to one another to be considered virtually simultaneous.
Here I was: I had been married for close to twenty years, and involved in The Way for almost twenty-five, and now I was on my own. Everything that I thought was important, what I considered my whole life had been jerked out from under me.
I rented a tiny one-bedroom apartment in the downtown area. The first night on my own I reflected that I was really alone. There were no "believers" to call, no family who wanted anything to do with me, what twi would have called my "earthly family" were on the other side of the country, and I was ashamed to go to them.
I seriously considered suicide and wondered if anyone would care. While I was pondering that, I decided to get roaring drunk instead.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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writer of THE Rush lyrics...
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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I knew those chickens I was sacrificin' for you would work!
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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If he was 11th Corps he would have been interim 1981-82, he wasn't in Omaha then.
He would have graduated in summer 1983: I had just started a 7 1/2 year hiatus from twi and would have missed him.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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Hah, I knew you'd be here, Laleo!
That's right, I recall that MCDS was "one of us".
I'm mainly just curious about where people are and what happened to them.
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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Other than Laleo, any of you out there?
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Walking in the wrong direction...
in Getting help for cult dysfunction
Posted
...you can see a "bondage face"
just kidding
Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is