Lone Wolf McQuade

Abigail, You're right. David was not their spiritual leader...per se. But then again neither was Samuel or Nathan...per se. While the people may not have looked to David as their spiritual leader, they didn't exactly see him as "just the king". When you see the record of Saul, you see God's heart for what the king of Israel was supposed to be like. God gave Saul the spirit and it changed him so dynamically that it says Saul had a new heart and he prophecied. The people were astonished and said "Is Saul also among the prophets?". (1 Sam. 10:11) No one was Israel's sole spiritual leader, but the king was certainly to be in the same "league" as the prophets. Even Samuel was not allowed into the holy of holies. Only the high priest could do that. So was the high priest the spiritual leader of Israel? No. Many people were Israel's spiritual leaders and the king was certainly one of them and the people of Israel recognized him as such, as well as Samuel, Nathan, the high priest, the Levites, etc. If I had to say who was Israel's sole spritual leader, I would have to say it was the Law itself because everybody from David on down was to know it and obey it. The Law was the schoolmaster, not any one person. (Gal. 3:24) As a matter of fact, the NIV reads... So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. So who was Israel's spiritual leader? The Law. Lone Wolf

bfh, you said... Well there ya go. My whole family got born again in PFAL. So what about all across the world? Thousands were born again under VPW's ministry. And that's exactly my point. That's what I mean by VPW being the "real deal". Jesus Christ said apart from me you can do nothing. (John 15:5) With Wierwille's success in outreach, it is hard for me to believe the Lord was not working in him. Before PFAL, a lot of the scholarly work he "stole" was mostly discussed in the intellectual circles, in the ivory towers of learning. PFAL brought an entire package of understanding down to the "common man" and presented it so that the Bible made sense as a whole. That's why we all stuck around, not because we were all brain washed by subliminal messages. I'm still yet to find your average church goer, who attends every Sunday (and I've met quite a few) who can engage in a biblical discussion to the degree that your typical Advanced Class grad could carry on. The Dead Alive Now, scriptures and points regarding the trinity, administrations, how to use Lexicons and Concordances. Regardless which way you lean in your perspective on all of those topics, the fact that you can even talk about them intelligently is proof of the education you were exposed to in TWI. PFAL exposed us to a much more scholastic pursuit of the scriptures. That was VPW's goal wasn't it, to teach us how to work the Word? Lone Wolf McQuade

Oldiesman said... In response, cman said... I don't think so. Oldies, I think you understand the scriptures better than this guy. It sounds like the only one who rejects the Bible is him. Out There, you said to excathedra... That's just it Out There, because of his 15,177 posts (maybe we should be in awe!), he thinks somehow his comments carry more weight around here than the rest of us. Sounds like intolerance of ones ideas except his own. Maybe he's auditioning to be the SLOGSFOT....Spiritual Leader Of Grease Spot For Our Time. Lone Wolf McQuade

Full Circle, Well, that's your problem. The Word says that when we were still his enemies, Christ died for us. (Rom. 5:8) So what are you saying, that you will only be loving to those who love you? What reward will the Lord give you for that? (Matt. 5:46)Watered Garden, Yes, God saves, God does many things but usually not without the cooperation of human beings. The ministry of reconciliation has been given to US.(2 Cor. 5:18) People see the love of God when a person who rises up to put on the love of God, manifests it to others. Likewise with being saved. God saves, but only when someone who has the love and the boldness to share the message, speaks it to someone. How will they hear without someone preaching the message to them? (Rom. 10:14) God isn't going to come down and personally witness to them and get them saved. He's invited us to do that. Bolshevik, Hmmm, none of you? Ever? Not in any way? Mighty spiritual you must be. Whose fault is that? Why the hell did you stay for 26 years then? I saw plenty saved, right in my own fellowship...oh yeah, lives turned around too...the Word can do that, ya know? WhatTheHey, I have read your posts, and I am left with the question..."what the hey?" :wacko: Abigail, You gotta be jokin' me, right? So Lucifer was lifted up with pride because God made him? :blink: Mister-P-Mosh, Maybe when it comes to adultery. But you have your deep rooted habits of sin just like the rest of us. You may be an atheist, but I'm sure you have a few gods in your life, you just don't know it. Uh, those are false religions. I'm sure there are many more animal rights activists than there has ever been people in TWI. So what? Any believer who has reached out to win even one person has done greater than them. Jim, I was laughing so hard when I read that. Thanks for the good laugh!...sincerely!

You know I see everyones comments about how VPW was basically an egotistical, womanizing, plagiarist, who did nothing but seek glory from men and destroy the lives of others. This is completely ludicrous. There's no doubt VPW made mistakes, VPW had weaknesses, VPW fell into the flesh....well whoopdie-doo. You guys seem to forget that VPW was just a man. And like any man he had a sin nature tugging on his heart and whispering in his ear. Romans 7:18, 19 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do-- this I keep on doing. If the great Apostle Paul struggled with the flesh and lost again and again and again, what were you expecting from VPW? For the people who say that TWI completely ruined your life, what exactly ruined your life? The fact that VPW fell into sin or the fact that you allowed an idol to form in your own mind (VPW) and that idol didn't come through for you? VPW had a powerful ministry. How do I know? Jesus Christ said you will know them by their fruit. Well the fruit of VPW's efforts was 100,000 people getting born again. 100,000? That's called the mighty hand of the Lord moving to save....regardless of what weaknesses VPW may have had in his life. I would hate to have to share all of my weaknesses with all of you here. Yet regardless of my weaknesses, they never stopped me from getting revelation from God, they never stopped me from witnessing to someone and getting them saved and they never stopped me from praying for someone and seeing them healed. God has definitely shown me in my life how He will work with me no matter how screwed up I am or how wrong or right all of my doctrine may be. As my heart is pure before the Lord and I keep trying, the Lord is pleased. Many on this site who are knowledgeable of the scriptures owe a debt of gratitude to his hard work. OK so he "stole" some lines here and there. That doesn't change the fact that he still gave his life to teaching the Word and in his heart of hearts really wanted to be his best for God (don't we all?) but he fell into the flesh. Should I discount everything great the man did? Solomon got to a place in his life where he didn't have much regard for the Word at all. He gave away promised land to a pagan king, forced people to work without paying them, set up idols all throughout the land of Israel, and actually whipped fellow Israelites. Should I discount Proverbs and Ecclesiastes because Solomon turned out to be such a loser? If VPW ever personally wronged you in a situation at HQ, in residence, etc. then my heart goes out to you. I would never think of belittling your experience. However, for most people ragging on him around here I feel this scripture applies: 1 Corinthians 11:31 But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under (God's) judgment. Lone Wolf

TheHighway, Well, it's just an honest evaluation from personal experience. And since CFF is also an off shoot, I feel it was fair to throw my two cents in regarding their efforts. Everyone talks about VPW being a plagarist. Take a browse through CFF's website and tell me they did not take every bit of jargon from VPW/TWI and carry it right over into their own group. All that "great leadership", all that "great education" all those years of "working the Word" and they can't come up with anything on their own or any "new light"? I say this to all GS's with all respect, any person who has any background in critical thinking or logic, well I just don't know how you can look at what CES is teaching (at least the majority of it), and say, "Oh that's a bunch of false doctrine that makes no sense". I mean, come on. Personal prophecy thing aside, I feel CES' teaching makes much more sense and is so much more true to REAL LIFE, what I see EVERY day with my own eyes. Aren't people sick of living in the mystical? "Miracles for everyone who believes, what you fear will happen to you, all I have to do is SIT, pray, read the Word, fellowship with like-minded believers and give my tithe and I'll be a great spiritual person!".......what a bunch of nonsense, biblically and logically. Again, all of this is just my opinion. :-) LoneWolf

Does anybody know of any scripture where Christians are commanded to read the Bible?

As to what is admitted, I don't know. Because I'm not a member, it's impossible to really know what's going on. Everything is "he said-she said". That's why I feel you don't get involved with organizations. As Christians, we follow God and His Son Jesus Christ and if you can find a group of believers that can share what they know and add to your learning...great! But take it for what it is, a group teaching you what they feel they have learned. That way, when trouble like this happens, if need be, you can walk away quietly, continuing to seek the Lord and His truth instead of having your whole world crumble because you put your trust in men and not God. LoneWolf

In CES's Defense... It’s been a couple of years since I have posted and wanted to drop by and say hello in light of everything going on at CES. I've been out of the Way for oh.....about 7 years now. I, like so many others, was quite disappointed, not really knowing where to turn next. About a year after leaving twi, a friend of mine introduced me to CES and their materials. I was given a copy of their book One God & One Lord. I was VERY impressed. I soon started receiving their monthly tapes and have listened to and read pretty much everything they have to offer. Again, I would say that overall I am VERY impressed with the doctrine they are producing. Yes, I have read everything on this site regarding the "personal prophecy" shinanagins (is that how you spell that?). It is unfortunate. But once again we see what happens when organizations form. Personal conflicts and opinions are going to clash whenever you put 2 or more people together. So what's new? Even Paul and Barnabas argued so intensely they went separate ways in life. :( Do you think they spoke personal prophecies against one another????…hmmm…doubtful. So if they have the personal prophecy not quite right, ok, I at least applaud them for the courage to step out on something new and learn something different because it's obvious that twi's manifestation of prophecy was not the great mark of a "spiritually mature" individual. But that's what the Word says it's supposed to be. Since we don't have the Apostle Paul here to demonstrate, I guess we have to keep trying until we figure it out. The Word does command to earnestly desire prophecy. Contrast this with what I have seen going on at CFF over the past 7 years. It's just the same old stuff. Twi all over-again with the same boring faces, same old doctrine, same old uninspring manifestations, same old "MOG-Rev." crap...oh, and of course, we can't forget about the tithe! At least when CES puts out a monthly tape it makes me genuinely think about the Word on a much deeper level, spiritually and philosophically...instead of the same old law of believing, sonship rights, blah blah blah. At least CES is venturing out, trying to bring a logical conclusion to many unanswered questions left by twi's doctrine. I have found that for the most part, CES’s doctrine is very “mentally satisfying”. Anyway, that's just my opinion. :-) CES is going to have their troubles just like any other organized ministry. It's the nature of the beast. But if I may say, I have listened to every teaching available by John Schoenheit and spoken with him on various occasions, and ya know, you're going to have a hard time convincing me that he does not have a genuine heart for God and people. His ministry as a teacher and his love for the scripture seems pretty apparent to me. Again, that's just my opinion. :-) I think CES’s big mistake was leaving their “think tank” status and changing to a “full-service ministry”. Because everytime people start forming into these groups..eventually, calamity strikes, and here it is. It is disappointing indeed. Love you all! LoneWolf P.S. No, I am not a member of CES nor do I promote their class or attend one of their fellowships.