Lone Wolf McQuade

"...anytime you feel you can bluff me doctor!" Lone Wolf

I mean, hey, after all is said and done, after all the scandals, after all the reproof sessions, after all the teachings at local fellowships, after all the endless branch meetings...do you feel like you have a pretty good overall understanding of the scriptures at this point in your life? Obviously this is a general question. If you answer, "yes", I would not take as you proclaiming yourself to be some great one. We all have much to learn as we all know. :-) And if you answer, "yes", how much of that was due to TWI? or did you leave TWI and continue to study the scriputres from others and feel you have come to your understanding that way? Lone Wolf McQuade

When you read through the OT, it becomes clear that one of God's top priorities was making sure his Word was carried over to the next generation. Well, that's a cinch when you get married and have kids. You teach your kids, BOOM, the Word is carried on to the next generation. How many times did God get angry because with every generation he had to start over again? Why would he have to start over again? Because the parents never taught the children. Malachi 2:15, 16 Has not the LORD made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his. And why one? Because he was seeking godly offspring. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith with the wife of your youth. "I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel... Why does God hate divorce? Mostly because it interferes with the chance of yielding godly offspring. That is such a concern for God. How many families were ruined because Dad was off serving the ministry instead of just keeping it simple, loving his wife, staying around the house and teaching his children the Word? Lone Wolf

I remember when I was at Craig's new Advanced Class in '98. He told the audience that he believed the Devil did not know anything that was written in the new syllabus because of the "spritual protection" around HQ. I'm not sure what is more disturbing, the fact that someone would actually believe that, or the fact that he wanted us to think his new syllabus would need to be concealed from the adversary because of "never before seen, ground-breaking spiritual light" that was going to be held forth in his class. "I wonder what's going on in there, I can't see! The light is so bright!" Lone Wolf

"I SAID GIVE ME THE BRANDY!!!! " Lone Wolf

Yes, you are quite right. But at least when your main fellowship is your family, when you hear the Word being taught by some organization, you are free to think and ponder it's meaning and are free to accept it or reject it and everything's fine as you go home to your family and get their input. It's a lot better IMO than belonging to some group where you are taught the Word, and you find it becomes a "my way or the highway", getting kicked out of something you may have spent the last 30 years giving your life to only to be "voted out". Lone Wolf

I wasn't at all trying to imply that we all move from city to city. I know Paul was called to teach and spread the Word. And in the 1st century Christianity was brand new so he had to go from city to city to get the message going. My only point was that because he moved around a lot, he certainly didn't stick around at the same fellowship for years. And it's that point that I think we should model, unless that fellowship is your own family. I remember saying to myself sometimes sitting in twig, "sheesh, I'm tired of looking at the same old people". Maybe that was a character flaw on my part. But it's easy to slip into spiritual weakness when it's the same routine over and over. Meeting new Christians in life helps you to grow and helps you to learn new perspectives with new people and circumstances to challenge you. But if you did stay at the same fellowship with the same people for 20 years, I certainly don't think it would be sin, not at all. Thanks markomalley for pointing out what I should have clarified better. Lone Wolf

Abigail, you said... Great point. I would agree whole-heartedly. Lone Wolf

VPW certainly fell into the flesh. But I think part of the problem was the formation of The Way International itself. Every time you go to form an organization, someone has to be put in charge and there's where all the trouble begins. I remember when CES made the announcement that they were moving from their "think tank" status to a full-service ministry, hanging my head (literally) and saying, "I think that's a mistake". Sure enough, just a few years later, look at the trouble. People aren't meant to be in those positions because the flesh can't handle it. It seems everybody who ever led an organization ended up taking the choke in some form or another, whether it's stealing the church funds, sleeping with church members, or watering down the gospel to keep the tithes coming in. After everything I have studied, it seems to me that the "organization" God works in is the family unit. When you think about it, all the commands of God are fulfilled in the family unit: It's real easy to accept the concept of "obeying your leadership" when your leadership is your own mom and dad. When you have mom+dad+child, there are three. Three is all that's required to have "manifestations", if need be (that's another thread). How easy is it to learn to forgive your Christian brothers, when you have been practicing your whole life forgiving your real brother. When you pray for people, it's the love of God that energizes the power of God. Well how easy to have love for the one you're praying for when it's your own mom and dad? or your own sister? You never have to worry about the "priest" sleeping with his followers because his followers are his own sons and daughters (no disrespect to those who were abused as children). It's a lot easier to give money to meet the need of believers when the believers are your own family. You always know where the money is going, instead of your money just disappearing into some account somewhere to be used to defend yourself in a lawsuit against other believers. VPW was not my father in the Word. My father in the Word was, well, my father. :-) Paul is supposed to be our example as Christians and I never see Paul congregating with the same old bunch of believers day in and day out, year after year. He taught, ministered, and then moved on, keeping in touch by letter and the rare visit, when possible. After Paul meets Peter at HQ for the first time, he "hits the road", working a job, living his life, and teaching the gospel of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. When he finally sees Peter again, 17 years later, what's going on at 'ole HQ where a bunch of believers congregate? Well everybody's screwed up, living in hypocrisy, and Paul has to confront the so-called "leader of the church" for not being true to the gospel. Sound like TWI? Organizations may be a great idea in theory, and they do reach out and win people. But because we all carry the flesh around with us, sooner or later, disaster strikes, people are hurt and some even walk away from God, and the ministry gets a bad name. The Way fell into it, CES is falling into it, and well, so has everybody else. For those who are single in the Lord and can't find believers to fellowship with, they may be better off to start their own family and fellowship with them. I think a lot less people would be hurt if that were the pattern. Lone Wolf

You are correct. It's just, well, it's mystifying. Why go through all the work of composing a book as thick as JCOP and not take a moment and phrase things you have learned from others in your own words or if you can't because they coined a great statement, just cite them and give them credit. The guy was educated, much more than I. I have a hard time believing he couldn't do that. It is disappointing. Lone Wolf

Waysider, you said... No, it's very relevant. I think when VPW said that, people assumed that God spoke to him personally and taught him all this stuff. Any halfway serious study of the scriptures, I feel, clearly shows that God doesn't work that Way. And I don't think VPW was ever trying to imply that. In my own personal experience and study, personal revelation comes few and far between. God expects people to do the hard work of learning. Remember when VPW said he was working the Word for 10-12 hours a day for 18 years (I forget the exact numbers)? Well I'm sure he was reading Bullinger's works, Stiles', Leonard's, etc. I always understood it as God placing the right people in his path who knew a little of this here, and a little of that there until finally, 18 years goes by and he puts together his PFAL class. At least, that's how I understood it. Lone Wolf

Abigail, you said... Come on. His whole life? Who has ever accomplished that. You're looking for someone to be Jesus Christ in the flesh for you 24/7 in everything they think , say, and do.And if I remember correctly, in PFAL, VPW even said that David was NOT a man after God's own heart when he was "running around with Bathsheba and having Uriah killed". Should be in the PFAL (orange) book. Look it up. He said that when we OBEY, we also can be men and women after God's own heart. Alfakat, you said... Yes, I was there. Left by 1987, came back in 1991, left in 2000. Lone Wolf

Oakspear, you said... You make a good point. Me too. I guess that's where my confusion is. Alfakat, your wallet is safe. I won't be stopping by any time soon. Lone Wolf

Alfakat, you said... Uh, if you read STF/CES's website, John's paper on adultery is there. He begins by saying: "In 1982 or 1983 Rev. Ralph Dubofsky and Rev. Vince Finegan came to me. Dr. Wierwille had asked them to do some work on the subject of adultery. Ralph and Vince wanted to know what I knew and if it would help them." Lone Wolf

Waysider, you said... Bfh, is right. 1 Samuel 13:14 is what is used to make the statement about David. And in case there were any doubts that Samuel may have been referring to somebody other than David, Paul reaffirms this truth in Acts 13:22. I just did a Google search and cannot find any Christian website or any theologian who says any differently. If Paul (being raised as a strict Pharisee and having access to scrolls we will never have) concluded it was referring to David, I think it's safe to say, it was indeed David who was the man after God's own heart. Lone Wolf

HCW, you said... I would agree with your perspective 100%. Lone Wolf

Sure, if someone can lead The Way. There's so much info here, you can't really go and find what you need at the drop of hat. Some direction would be great. Thank you Mr. Hammeroni, I'm off to read. Lone Wolf

Depression is a tough one. Unlike high blood pressure which has limited known causes, depression has such an octopus of tenticles that can grab someone and drag them into it. Everything from bad diet, lack of exercise, to poor choices in life can lead someone there real fast. I know of people who have taken medication to stop being depressed only to find themselves more depressed for being chemically dependent. However, to say that nobody who has a battle with depression has spiritual problems wouldn't be right either. I still believe in demonic oppresion and I'm sure demons can cause someone in their thoughts to be sad, so sad that they can't seem to get out. The Adversary...what a bastard. Lone Wolf

In all sincerity, please help me to understand why this is such an issue? If the guy was worried about being exposed as a plagiarist, why would he speak of B.G. Leonard and his class? Wouldn't he try to hide that so no one could compare the two? I realize there was some missing notes in the bibliography on some of his works. Some people who should have had a note mentioning them didn't get it, and I'm not sure why. There were plenty of people that he did mention. Same goes with Bullinger. How to Enjoy the Bible was required reading for the Way Corp. Don't you think people were going to read that and say, "Hey, that's exactly what VPW wrote!". VPW was always quoting Bullinger and spoke on many occasions about where he learned all of his information from. It's obvious he wasn't trying to hide anything otherwise having people read from the same books you "stole" your class from would be foolish indeed. VPW never once claimed that he came up with all of this on his own. I heard a teaching from Emporia once where he spent the first 30 minutes or so just rattling off names of different people who shared and taught him different things. Do you know how many times I have used other peoples lines when communicating the Word? So does the Lord not honor the Word I'm speaking to someone because I stole their lines and didn't give them credit for it?? Certainly not. God cares a lot less about where you learned your doctrine from and a lot more with saving people's lives. Sheesh, even Jesus said "My doctrine is not mine" (John 7:16). In the end, everyone "steals" from everybody else. Bullinger did not learn everything he did on his own. He went to school and learned what his teachers taught him and so on. In the end, it all comes from God. He is the Source. Anything anyone has to say regarding spiritual truth is just a rehashing of what God has already said generations ago. Lone Wolf McQuade

Wow, I didn't know we were free to sling racial slurs here at the cafe. The only idol I see around here is peoples hatred for the man. Lone Wolf

I'll keep that in mind.

Abigail, you said... We do? I think everybody here knows what David did. So when God judges David, do you think he'll get to enter into the kingdom or do you think he'll be tossed into the flames? It's a good thing you aren't God, David wouldn't stand a chance. Lone Wolf

The reason VPW is constantly compared to David is not to show how great VPW was. The reason is because few people in the scriptures can be shown to be such a screw up as David. Because of him, many thousands of people died, many thousands of innocent people. Fewer people had more dirty laundry than David and yet he remains such a hero of the scriptures. Why is that? Here's a guy who puts a hit out on another believer. Here's a guy who uses his "position" to sleep with a married woman and then uses his political power to cover it up. Thanks to this guy, a whole generation of priests are slaughtered and eventually the kingdom was torn apart. Yet despite all of this, time and time again, God spared his wrath on Israel saying, "For the sake of David my servant". Obviously God must have had a "soft spot" for David. A soft spot, after all of that destruction David is responsible for? Why? Obviously, God must look at more than just the sin or lack of it in judging a man. VPW is comapred to David because of all the screw ups in his life. Yet God loved David, and God loved VPW too. There were definitley times when VPW was walking with God. And anyone who walks with God for any duration and understands the scriptures to any degree is convicted of their sin. That's one of the purposes of scripture, to convict us of sin so that we will run from it. The things VPW did were sin, and he knew it. He struggled with his flesh and felt the condemnation just like anyone who tries to live for God. If VPW didn't care about the scriptures and didn't care about adultery, why would he have wanted a research paper done on adultery? If anything, that's the subject he would have tried to keep his clergy from ever researching. So again, VPW is not comapred to David to somehow put VPW on par with David. Rather it is to show what a screw up you can be and how sinful you can be and still do great things for God in life.........thank God for that. Just some thoughts. Lone Wolf

By the Way, Abigail, you said... This statement alone leads me to believe that you don't even believe the scriptures are from God. The author who was very very concerned about the laws and the building of the temple was God. What was said about David's life and what was left out was God's choice, not some fleeting human authors' who was trying to make David look better than he really was. Lone Wolf

Abigail, you said... I'm not sure where you are coming from with all of this about David. Your understanding of David being a military leader to Israel and nothing more is "way" off base.You said David didn't teach: Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will turn back to you. (Psalm 51:13) Come, my children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the LORD. (Psalm 34:11) You said David didn't prophesy: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Ps. 22:1). My tongue cleaveth to my jaws...they pierced my hands and my feet. (Ps. 22:15,16). They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. (Ps. 22:18). They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink. (Ps. 69:21). By the "Way", all of the above is revelation directly from God, remember? David sounds a little more spiritual than you are apparently willing to give him credit for. "David wasn't a teacher of God's Word"...wrong. "David wasn't a prophet"...no, but he did prophesy. "He didn't hold forth the Word"...ever read the book of Psalms?? Sounds like holding forth the Word to me. "He didn't live his life according to the Word"...hmmm, that's not what God had to say about him. 1 Kings 15:5 For David had done what was right in the eyes of the LORD and had not failed to keep any of the LORD's commands all the days of his life-- except in the case of Uriah the Hittite. Sheesh, for someone who receives such sterling remarks from God, you're sure ready to drag him outside the city gates and stone him to death. You're so consumed with pointing out what an unspiritual man David was because of the "case of Uriah the Hittite", that you refuse to acknowledge all the good David did. And you do the same thing to VPW. No wonder VPW gets no praise from you. You won't even acknowledge that someone is spiritual when God clearly states that he was. David was a spiritual man, and he was the leader of Israel, therefore he was a spiritual leader. He wasn't the only one, but he was certainly one of them. According to you, David was unspiritual, VPW was unspiritual, but of course, I'm sure you consider yourself spiritual, right? Lone Wolf