Zixar

(Note: Opinion follows! ;)--> ) Since Karl asked what I thought about Four Crucified, off the cuff I'd say I still agree with Bullinger on it. Sure, it's convoluted, but it does un-paradox the Matthew/Luke contradiction. Unfortunately, Bullinger (and VPW too, if memory serves, since he usually swiped EWB's Greatest Hits) uses the same logic to come up with SIX Denials of Peter instead of three. That's just really shaky, to me. In my humble opinion, Zix

Karl: Greetings back to you, O absent scribe! I think you may have misunderstood my take on that verse. I wasn't declaring Wierwille's version the truth, I'm certainly not qualified to do that. I wrote my original post at the office and didn't have an interlinear in front of me. Not that it would have done me any good, mind you. I've never had a Greek course, so I don't know how idioms break naturally in that language. I knew that Goey and others are much more knowledgeable of Greek than I, so I was hoping someone would say "Well, if it was Wierwille's way, it would read "greekity-greek-greek-GREEK", but the text says "greek, greek, GREEKITY greek" instead. So, it really can't be accurately punctuated his way without completely mangling this expression." Sorry if I didn't make that clear. I didn't think I was trying to speak ex cathedra (as if) about it. I just think it made sense Wierwille's way, and given VL's side at the time, I didn't see it as a conclusive refutation, that's all. My ISP has had DNS problems for most of the past 48 hours, so I couldn't respond earlier. God bless! Zix (p.s. Thanks for the kind, but undeserved, compliments. I'll try to be a little more circumspect in the future when it comes to differentiating between my opinions and provable theses.)

SteveL: With respect, I don't think you've made your case for this one. I could see the case that Romans 9, 10, and the first half of 11 may not be "addressed" to Israel as VPW claimed, but Israel is the subject of those chapters, nonetheless. Romans 10:9 is further expanded to include the Gentiles in the immediate following verses. The record in the second part of Romans 11 is explicitly addressing Gentiles, so I don't really see what you're trying to prove here, unless it's that VPW is guilty on another count of bad semantics. No offense, Zix

VLimit: I don't recall hearing VPW say that they continued to say anything. His take was that it should read "we ceased saying 'the will of the Lord be done'" without the commas. Verse 14 is the last anyone says anything to Paul about it, so it looks like they stopped trying to persuade him.

Today would have been J.R.R. Tolkien's 111th birthday. Happy posthumous eleventy-first, Professor!

Vertical: Actually, I think that one could really go VPW's way. Anyone out there know Greek well enough to determine if the punctuation is correct or not in the Stephens interlinear?

Mandii: I think the answers to the seeming dilemma were actually covered in PFAL, believe it or not. Didn't VPW say something along the lines of "when you come to something you don't understand or can't make fit, just leave it. Believe it or just leave it." Something like that. Anyhoo, that was TWI's ultimate problem. When they came to something that they couldn't understand, they couldn't "just leave it." It's been brought up before that part of the problem with a "biblical research ministry" is the nagging need to churn out "new" research all the time--even if that "research" turns out to depend on stretching a single word so far out of context it was unrecognizable. As long as it was "new", it was pure money. ("Athletes of the Spirit" ring a bell? Oh, we're not "warriors", we're "athletes", and it's not a "shield", it's a "discus"....etc., etc. Blech.) What was worse was when destructive practices got jammed into what was otherwise recognizable as "The Word". "All the women belong to the king", "abortion isn't murder", pick your favorite excuse out of the Appendix of the Schoenheit adultery paper. Would to God that they had simply "just left it." Well, pride goeth before destruction, as the Word says...

Supposing for a moment that some of Dr. Wierwille's teachings were indeed God-breathed, and some were not, then what does that say of the teachings he agreed with enough to publish that came from other authors? If they were the ones who received God-breathed truth, and God confirmed them to be true to VPW, then we have God-breathed doctrine all over the place, and not just from one man. We should immediately read all works by: B.G. Leonard J.E. Stiles George Lamsa Ernest Martin And a host of others of VPW's sources for his books. God is breathing on quite a few it would seem. What happens when they contradict Wierwille, then? If, as Rafael has shown, that not ALL of VPW's work can be considered God-breathed, who then is qualified to privately interpret which bits are theopneustos and which bits are devilish error? By not reading the others, we could be missing out on even more God-breathed epistles to the believers. If the others weren't God-breathed, but merely good guesses, how could we tell? Wierwille thought they were good enough to mix in with his God-breathed stuff, and God apparently didn't breathe to him otherwise, so what other conclusion can we draw but that they must have been God-breathed too?

Mike: You do know that American Christian Press was wholly owned and operated by The Way International, don't you? It was entirely PFAL-grads, from proofreaders to printers. Look, I'm not a rabid anti-Wierwillite. I think his original goal was admirable--to get to a greater understanding of the Bible by placing the scriptures above the traditions of the Church. BUT, since the Bible we do have today does really have apparent contradictions due to holes in our understanding, anything anyone comes up with to fill in those holes has to be as consistent as the rest of the Word in order to even be a candidate for the truth. Dr. Wierwille filled in some of those holes with demonstrably false doctrines, hidden amongst the more reasonable and probably-true bits. It is those false doctrines that were directly responsible for the decline of TWI over his lifetime, and the utter failure of it after his death. Chief among them is his easily-disprovable views on adultery and sex in general. VPW might not have laid the label of "sex pervert" at the apostle Paul's feet for his thorn in the flesh, but there are several corroborating accounts from the victims that support laying that label at Dr. Wierwille's feet. How could a man of God betray his wife and family like that? A moment of weakness might be understandable, but to systematize error and entrench it as doctrine is the work of the Adversary. To be unrepentant of it, even on his death bed? To teach it to his successors such that there have been multiple lawsuits brought forth over it? Remember too that Dr. Wierwille died from cancer. It was his own teaching in the Advanced Class that cancer is always a devil spirit. Yet, despite the evident sexual abuse, not one of the Board of Trustees apparently cast the devil spirits out of him, nor did he apparently believe God to rid himself of it. Who knows when he was first possessed by it? Which books hadn't he written at that time? By the very logic Dr. Wierwille presented in his PFAL class, nothing he said should be considered sacrosanct. All the error in the modern Bible came from well-meaning scribes who were secretly possessed of devil spirits, right? Guess who you can add to the list... Not that you should be ashamed, even Paul the Apostle thought he was right when all the prophecies said "don't go to Jerusalem." Remember what happened to him in his pride, though. Believe God rather than man. God bless, Zixar

Rottie: If it were true, then everyone would have the same blood type as their father. I don't, for one. (I'm O+, he was A+.) It doesn't necessarily mean that Jesus wasn't perfect; it may have been that Mary was the only person to have the exact genetic sequence in that one egg cell that was necessary to produce the perfect Messiah. It wasn't merely an all-dominant gene sequencing either--after all, the gene for extra fingers or toes is dominant, and there's no record that Jesus had twelve fingers. (Granted, it would have made it easier to count the apostles, but still... ;)--> ) But we're moving away from the topic...

lindy: Yep, it's true. Here's a link, complete with a photostat of the death certificate signed by Dr. Winegarner. He died of metastatic liver cancer. http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_DEATH.htm

lindyhopper: You're right about the genetics of blood typing. The example just illustrates another place where VPW used a verse of scripture (Lev 17:11) to justify an erroneous idea he had. He was so fond of that "scientific precision", after all... ;)--> Leviticus isn't even talking about genetics or Jesus in 17:11, but it sure sounded good, and easy to blow past a captive audience. I think it's because I caught that one the first time through the class that I didn't fall as deeply into Wierwille-worship as some did. Heck, it was those "keys" in PFAL that showed me where all the leadership wasn't acting according to God's Word and got me out in the first place. So, to TWI, I say, "Thanks for the Word, guys, but you stopped practicing it long ago, so you'll have to forgive me for not letting you preach it to me anymore." God bless! Zix

Insurgent: I don't know, I didn't stick around for LCM's classes past "Rise & Expansion". Georgio: Exactly, that was a pure guess on their part, since German is longer than English, and Chinese shorter, the equal time thing was obvious and blatant guesswork.

RottieGrrl: It's in the "Part II: Jeepers Sherlock..." thread, but here's what I wrote again:

Goey: Not bad, but you could have earned another 10 extra credit points if you had also managed to work in the phrase "present truth." ;)--> Rafael: There's also the old "blood in the sperm" error which I pointed out on the other thread.

Yep, that's the one! ;)--> Everyone I've talked to agrees it should have been the release version.

Cindy and Steve: There's nothing I could tell either of you about the other that you haven't figured out already. So, here's to your happiness! God bless you both! :)-->

Hope: Well, check around for a good price on the Green Box set. I got mine for $24.99 at Best Buy on release day, but I have seen it as high as $39. (I've also seen the bookend-version of it for as high as $75. BB had it for around $57, I think. The only diff is that the bookend edition comes with a 5th disc of the National Geographic special. Not really worth the extra $$$, although the bookends are quite nice.) The Green Box also comes with a free pass to see T2T (again). The commentaries and extras on the two versions (Original and Green Box) are different, so don't just chuck your original DVD yet.

In defense of the movie Galadriel, there is a big setup that Lorien is not a good place to go, and not even Legolas denies this. If everyone there had been happy-go-lucky nice-nice elves, the setup would have been ludicrous. No, this is one spot where it's Tolkien's fault. In The Hobbit, Mirkwood was a bad place, and the Elvenking was no friend. (even though he is Legolas' father) Elrond was only halfelven, so the hospitality at Rivendell could be explained. They needed to show that the elves weren't all that eager to get involved. Given the reception the Fellowship got when they reached Lothlorien, they really should have made it their first choice of destinations anyway. It just threw a little unnecessary suspense in that had to be paid off somehow. Granted, the whole negative-burn boo-scene was overdone, but how else would you do it?

CKathy: Oh, that's right...my mistake!

Wait a second... I don't think Gandalf had one of the three Elven rings. The rings, Narya, Nenya, and Vilya, were held by Elrond, Galadriel, and Cirdan the Shipwright of the Grey Havens. You don't really need to read T2T to appreciate the second movie. The only things you need to know are that the Kingdom of Rohan is one of many human kingdoms in Middle-Earth, it is west of Gondor and Mordor, and is basically a horse culture. Rohan is close to Isengard, Saruman's fortress, and therefore a logical strategic target for Saruman's attacks. The rest is fairly straightforward. Oh, and DEFINITELY get the Extended "green-box" Edition of FOTR. The extra half-hour has vital backstory for those who haven't read the books. (Including, Hope, the whole gifts of Galadriel scene, explaining the lembas, the phial, the rope, Legolas' new bow, etc.)

Galatians 5:1 "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." So Jesus wasn't born in December, so what? Look around at where you are and what is left of the ministry you once loved. The rest of the Christian world assembled puts aside their differences this time of the year and gives thanks to God. Hell, even the French and the Germans stopped World War I on this day. How in the world does skulking about here help anyone? If we cannot convince you on this day of days, I can only think of one other thing to say: If people's lives in your ministry hang in the balance of your spying, how vulnerable are your own lives to the tiniest whim of those above you? After all, soldiers are taken prisoner. Spies get shot. Give it up, refuse to be a pawn of the inner circle. It's never too late to serve God instead of man. Christ never went around just waiting to trip up the faithful. How then can you be operating the Christ in you by doing this? Just stand up and say, "no more." God bless you all, and deliver you from those who would speak falsely for Him, in the name of Jesus Christ. Merry Christmas, Zixar

Kathy: Nah, the TWI leaders would be more like Saruman than Gollum. Anyway, if you have access to a DVD player, get the "green box" edition of Fellowship of the Ring. It's half an hour longer than the theatrical version and explains more of the characters' backstories. Don't take my word for it. It was only nominated for THIRTEEN Oscars last year, including Best Picture. The Two Towers is every bit as good, if not better...

I have gotten Way-offshoot spam from one of the ex-TWI sites I posted my email on, though I can't say it was the Cortright site for certain. Poster beware.

Kathy: My wife has never read the books and she still thought it was great. (Don't tell me you haven't seen Fellowship of the Ring yet! ) (p.s. This was my 1000th post on GSC-2! ) [This message was edited by Zixar on December 23, 2002 at 8:07.]