annio

On 2/10/2025 at 1:25 PM, waysider said:

Oh, sure. It's a cult. But, it's the BEST cult. Am I right or what?

 

Good, better, best

Never let it rest.

Until your good is better

And your cult is the best

 

 

 PTSD creeps up me too at times... Dang!! And  we had/have to go thru these things, Geez, we , and  for gaining strength, seeing thru all the , and here's to you/us moving forward!! 

On 2/17/2025 at 5:59 PM, Rocky said:

https://bitemodel.com/

Steven Hassan Ph.D. after years of focused study of cults came up with the BITE model for assessing whether the group was a cult or not.

Behavior 

Information (control thereof)... I took the PFLAP class 49+ years ago. I still remember Victor Wierwille instructing students to NOT read anything but materials produced by TWI. He cleverly couched that directive in temporal terms in that class. IF you will ONLY read the bible and TWI materials for several months...  

Thought

Emotion

Bottom-line: like Penworks pointed out, it does matter where the money they'll ask you to donate goes and what they do with it. But it's really so much more. Penworks, in her memoir UNDERTOW demonstrated how it was far more insidious than just keeping their use of donations secret.

 

Thank you Rocky and Charlene!!!!!!! If I may share, I had a dream which got me to look at the PRESSURE we were under as wow's and way corpses. But/and your reminder Rocky re: how vp decreed/pontifically asserted that if we only read the Bible and twi materials, we would reap Great Benefits... This really hit me this am. What a mental POWER GRAB!!! OMG!!!!! How naive etc etc I was. What a devious way to get the doctrinal/emotional/spiritual box to close even further around the unsuspecting prey... I allowed myself to be lured into the trap, and then agreed to shut the door TIGHT, even locking it myself, and agreeing to only eat the stinking rotten food that was tossed my way...   O M G. 

On 8/25/2024 at 10:42 AM, Charity said:

"Fact" was not the best word to have used in my post when mentioning how many Christian denominations are in the world.  It's what came up first on a simple google search - admittedly, not the most in-depth way to research something.

Concerning your mention of stories above, the first gospel was written over 30 years after the life and death of Jesus.  (“The Gospel of Mark probably dates from c. AD 66–70, Matthew and Luke around AD 85–90, and John AD 90–110.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel)

Also, “The majority of New Testament scholars also agree that the Gospels do not contain eyewitness accounts; but that they present the theologies of their communities rather than the testimony of eyewitnesses.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_reliability_of_the_Gospels

One has to take it on faith when believing the gospels (which contains Jesus' perfect interpretation of the law and the prophets according to the opening post) were inspired by God and not simply stories (imo) passed on by men for most likely self-serving political and/or religious reasons.

Remaining on topic of this thread, I think any interpretation of the Bible is that of the person teaching it.  Calling it "Jesus' perfect interpretation" is a fallacy. 

 

Oh yes, any teacher claiming to have "Jesus' perfect interpretation" is not to be trusted. However, I myself have come to have "faith" in/TRUST that Jesus could and would and did and does have a perfect interpretation of Scriptures; it's been a combination of personal confirmations/thousands of answered prayers (am 75 years old), intellectual logical conclusions, and most of all the development of an ACTUAL RELATIONSHIP w/ Him. (I also see Him as being present in/for ppl's of all major religions/faith traditions a la Richard Rohr et al...) 

On 8/23/2024 at 11:04 PM, Charity said:

Or, apparently, EJ Martone, Assembly of God pastor as mentioned above.

VPW - no scripture is of any private interpretation (iow - the bible interprets itself)

EJM - Jesus is the perfect interpretation of the bible

Fact - There are more than 45,000 Christian denominations globally and more than 200 in the U.S., according to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity. 

Which one has Jesus' "perfect" interpretation?

Apologies, guess I did not get back to these answers in August... None for sure!! If of interest, EJM emphasizes the cultural Hebrew mindset/approach to Truth/Scriptural veracities as one in which 1) arriving at the destiny of discovering a possible Correct Interpretation of a passage is not nearly as important as  2) the process of discovering possible TruthS a) while experiencing the comradery of being in a COMMUNITY of scholars, and b) while taking an open-minded JOURNEY of exploration, discussion, LISTENING to various POVs; the PROCESS IS JUST AS IMPORTANT if not MORE so, than arriving at the answers/most valid interpretations. 

I personally like this a LOT.

Of interest to anyone? I just read a statement* re: JESUS "being the perfect interpretation (my emphasis) of the Bible"; the author uses Mathew 5:17-20 to discuss how the Old Covenant law was simply "an incomplete revelation of God's heart", and how the Pharisees' unhealthy interpretations of Scripture were WRONG. Jesus, on the other hand, came to fulfill/complete the OT Covenant, AND to "show the very heart of God, and how He wants his People to live in His Kingdom".  Thus JESUS "confronts the very unhealthy teachings and interpretations of the law in His day by the religious elite" and is the chief interpreter of Scripture, "because the law points to HIM" and His teaching (interpreting) ministry.

This was new for me! I had heard a respected ex-twi leader declare "Ah, the Holy Spirit is the Interpreter of Scripture!" But never Jesus. But now that I think about it, since the Comforter is come to lead us into all truth, and since Jesus is still alive and well, and leading and guiding us in perfect harmony w/ the Holy Spirit, it makes perfect sense!!!!!! This expands the Red Thread concept beautifully, I think! And confronts vp's doctrinal, practical, and horribly Pharisaical teachings on several different levels!!

*from Spark by EJ Martone (my Assembly of God pastor)

All I can say is WOW!!!!!!!!!!! Well also, HOW WONDEFUL IN MANY MANY WAYS!!!!!!!!!!!         VERY BEST TO YOU AND YOURS UNTIL... WE ALL MEET AGAIN!!

On 9/6/2022 at 9:51 AM, LoriAlberts said:

Hi.  Looking for any of my old friends who were in the Boston area 1978-1982

Well, I was in Boston summer '82 only... But you might enjoy hearing names like Sue Watson, Michael Pulliam, and Michael, Uh oh, N?? Lost last name. Went into the 14th Corps... We all lived in the way home that Sue Watson coordinated... 

On 3/11/2024 at 9:51 AM, chockfull said:

How can I not be deceived by other cults?  I don’t want to join another one.

https://www.reddit.com/r/cults/s/Mh6incJZ98
 

Reddit thread on this question.  Some insightful commentary.

For me it was partially self delusion.  I traded free will and compliance for an emotional sense of security, belonging, and purpose.

All those 3 tangible benefits were 100 percent delusional and false.  There is no security and belonging in a high control environment where questioning or presenting a different opinion results in shunning.  Obviously there is tangible negative emotional impact with shunning.  And any purpose was masked with the true hidden purpose of elevating certain individuals in stature and position.

There are emotional lies that people buy into and trade their freedom for.

 

Also checking into several resources in the Reddit link- Daniella Young's book, and a really good article! So appreciate these!

On 3/11/2024 at 9:51 AM, chockfull said:

How can I not be deceived by other cults?  I don’t want to join another one.

https://www.reddit.com/r/cults/s/Mh6incJZ98
 

Reddit thread on this question.  Some insightful commentary.

For me it was partially self delusion.  I traded free will and compliance for an emotional sense of security, belonging, and purpose.

All those 3 tangible benefits were 100 percent delusional and false.  There is no security and belonging in a high control environment where questioning or presenting a different opinion results in shunning.  Obviously there is tangible negative emotional impact with shunning.  And any purpose was masked with the true hidden purpose of elevating certain individuals in stature and position.

There are emotional lies that people buy into and trade their freedom for.

 

Thank you for articulating these things!!! 

8 hours ago, Allan said:

And yet Australias largest AOG church had young boys sexually abused by the founder until he was found out, stood down and then covered up by his son who then took over running the church...go figure.

Oh, no doubt about it, there have been all KINDS of power etc abuses in just about EVERY denomination or Christian movement, especially those getting attention recently. Twi definitely did not have a special corner on that! However, the length of time vp was able to abuse young women sexually, keep it all a secret, influence twi culture in big ways, and NEVER be held accountable in any effectual way is notable IMO.

On 2/22/2024 at 2:23 PM, chockfull said:

Hey annio!

Thanks for sharing.  I appreciate hearing about your growth and movement post TWI.

It sounds like you have found a comfortable presence of the body of Christ in your area and that’s great!

To me some of the difference in views are exactly that - now I can be part of a larger body of Christ as described in scripture where all parts are valued and part of a greater Christian extended family where common grassroots virtues and goals are shared and there is tolerance for differences in the body without an extreme cult-like view.  Where all members in Christ are equal and important and not to be treated like rock stars with entourages.

Denominations have good and bad aspects including accountability and governance of course flaws creep in to human constructs.  There are some cool community churches around too and some concept based churches with no denominational governance.

It’s kind of like a huge family worldwide with different languages cultures and ideas can be dysfunctional at times like most families.

I like it personally a lot more than the bondage of being a slave to “bring the heart of the BOD to all believers on the field and strive to run classes according to the overseers directed annual schedule”.  

I like it personally a lot more than the recently trademarked “WOW” phrase that will serve as trademarked justification for the same ongoing for future generations.

Want to go in a different philosophical or spiritual direction?  I think my faith in God says He is fair enough to see your heart and reward you for your efforts.  If people made it more about Him and less about them then maybe there wouldn’t be a ton heading for the hills.

Congrats on your continued faith and local family!

Appreciate your reply LOTS, Chockfull! Yes, observing and being a part of the various Christian assemblies functioning now often brings valuable freedom of choices, connections to the Body as a whole, ETCs as you pointed out! I left the Chris Geer group around 2009 after leaving twi in the late '80s, so didn't experience some of the specifics you mentioned. But What twi Became was so rooted in What It Already and Always Was that I am still pretty horrified that I was so influenced by vpw et all! Healthy horror I guess! Best to you!!

On 12/31/2023 at 4:02 PM, chockfull said:

I enjoy researching various different cults as opposed to focusing on the personal dirt related to the cult from my story.

I also share my observations surrounding TWI here on this website under a pseudonym as opposed to having a profession as a published author or having my personal identity as always associated with this particular cult.

I started this thread because there was a church doing a study on various cults including TWI which I was in.  I personally participated in that series of study and along the way shared many fruitful points of similarity in how cults function to TWI.

This thread is my personal experience in cult recovery.  As well as a topic for how different cults function similarly.

 

Picking up this thread after a looong search for the best thread pick up, hope I judged correctly enough! I am comparing the structure and teachings/inferences in the Assembly of God church I am now a partner in, w/ those of twi/vpw et al.  The irony of vp lauding the early church model of church in the home, i.e a grassroots movement, and condemning later "organized" denominations that met in church buildings, really strikes me. (Especially in light of the current movement of many church-building-churches to emphasize small groups that meet in homes, as well as the large gatherings in the church building on Sunday.) He CLAIMED a decentralized free-flowing Spirit-led movemen t, whi ch it was in some key ways; but ALWAYS, he was to be honored as the Apostle Paul was, (claims to the contrary), and kept an iron grip on the power, money, psyches, and Biblical doctrines of twi. 

In CONTRAST, the Assembly of God folks (not that I have allegiance towards any particular denom), emphasize small groups, have a lead pastor VERY accountable to a local board, and have a central office somewhere in Indianapolis I assume, and I THINK a US headquarters?  The Way Tree myth that elevated Jerusalem got implanted in my cultized brain, I am more fully realizing.

The AOG church as a whole is structured much more like the 1st Century church in keyways, than twi ever was!!!  Twi HEADQUARTERS WAS THE CHURCH BUILDING/physical location that ppl identified with and flocked to whenever possible, magnified 1000 times! Names like the Biblical Research Center, or WOW Auditorium didn't really change a THING IMO. Yes, human beings tend to ID with and attach to physical locations, especially where their hearts are drawn to God. But the concept that twi was the 1st Century church in the 20th, was PURE FICTION AND DECEPTION.

(Sometimes I still long for the free flow of how twi grew, and I do love how the early church was apparently structured and flowed. Apparently the Gospel is moving beautifully in India with Sangat Bain's ministry which is based only on home churches, and has Zero Headquarters.)

But right now, I am learning, growing, and worshipping in this local church which BTW, is connecting more and more w/ other churches in our town, YAY!) And am coming out of Cult Fog, and viewing the Evolution of The "Biblically-centered" Church from it's earliest days until now as something to learn from, honor, and feel a part of. 

Thank you GSC-ers for still being here!!

Will give it a listen, thanks!

2 minutes ago, Charity said:

Hi Annio, I've spent some time in the local Vineyard church here and there were some positive things I experienced, but it is definitely a charismatic church.  Looking back on that time, one concern I have is their emphasis on inviting the holy spirit to come, especially during the worship service.  This belief goes against the doctrine that we have holy spirit permanently dwelling within which is our connection with God and Christ.  On the surface, it may not seem like a big difference but many Vineyard people put faith in "experiencing" the holy spirit like "holy laughter" or feeling warmth in their hands as evidence "he" has come to them.  In 1994, there was the Toronto Blessing at a Vineyard church which brought thousands of people from around the world to experience the blessing and bring it back to their churches. John Wimber approved of it up to a certain point, until the "manifestations" of making animal sounds became too insane.  However, what was happening at the beginning, Wimber believed was of God.

In the church here, their view of the trinity had developed to where Jesus has now become the father and the holy spirit.  Before, they were separate but all part of one God in essence.  Now, when they read scriptures that are specifically about God the Father, they interpret it as being Jesus.  It was so blasphemous that I left the church. 

One last thing, the pastor at my church fully believes in the teachings of Mike Bickle of the International House of Prayer Kansas City whose "prophetic history" includes riding in a chariot in heaven and encounters with Jesus and Michael the archangel.  They are in a crisis right now due to allegations of sexual misconduct by Bickle so at lot of their false doctrine is being revealed.  If the Vineyard you attend accepts Bickle's teachings, especially his book called "Growing in the Prophetic," then it is definitely something you need to research for yourself.

Oh boy! Thank you for all of this Charity! And very interesting how movements evolve... We ALWAYS need to keep a watchful eye on human institutions, eh? I am now involved in an Assembly of God church pastored by a young fellow whose doctrinal positions I am coming alongside more and more. HowEVER, the doctrinal position I MOST appreciate there is that we can have a DIVERSITY OF DOCTRINAL POSITIONS (as well as political, ethnic, etc) re: secondary matters. Yes! Places for robust discussions, but no (ideally) place for narrow-mindedness, group think, conformity, etc. Sorry they are supporting Mike Bickle... Again, thank you for the input!!

On 1/21/2024 at 5:55 PM, chockfull said:

Yes it fits right in with Bible accounts like the twelve meeting the seventy where they said “we own the trademark on everything you’re doing” and called them “swagger jackers”.

 

On 1/20/2024 at 8:52 AM, chockfull said:

On the nostalgia bias front I see that the BODolts have paid money to patent the term “Word Over the World”.  Tm.

Your ABS at work.

Now if they could only patent the term “world peace” then they could collect a lot of money at every Miss America contest.

 

All u other WOWs are cheap imitators lol.

On 1/21/2024 at 5:09 PM, oldiesman said:

On 1/21/2024 at 3:31 PM, Rocky said:

Was he being blackmailed? I doubt it. 

Who knows what's in the heart of any human?

 

 

LCM was a total puppet; evidence in VP & Me... Others things... I myself benefitted a lot from the way, but also suffered much personal destruction. I DO fantasize about joining the CA Jesus movement which I purposefully decided not to just b/c it seemed too charismatic; would have been MUCH MORE HEALTHY, DOCTRINALLY  CORRECT I now believe, AND SAFE. Love John Wimber, Chuck Smith, the Vineyard movement. Oh well...

On 1/25/2024 at 10:27 PM, chockfull said:

Ok I tried once again to listen to the incredible forehead.

I got as far into the teaching as him going on about God making a way to escape with the temptation and how you should be getting warnings from God ahead of time to avoid the trap.

Then irony closed in.

And I shut him off.

21 hours ago, chockfull said:

So this year the JW Governing Body has made the policy change for all its cult followers that they no longer have to report up through the organization the number of “pioneering hours” they spend per week.  They just check a box instead.  This is causing some internal challenges.

https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/s/DdBwS5j1Ps

I wonder if The Way International has modified any of their volunteer witnessing policies over the years.

When I was a leader in TWI they had policies for every single leader position in the organization.  The instructions to every single leader included “Carry out the heart of the Board of Directors to all members on the field”.  This was called the “Rise and Expansion” policies and was part of the “Way tree” structure throughout our country.  It included that every local group would “strive to run a class” according to calendar goals.  So to fulfill this, leaders designed similar outreach tactics to the JWs with door to door, public stands and planning and recording outreach activities conversations and results.

When I look back on this now it is all control and zero Bible at the basis of this.

Jesus Christ when he returns is not going to ask everyone at the bema how diligently they “carried out the heart of the BOD to the members on the field”.  No the BOD will get their very own dunce cap dedicated to those who promoted their own interests in the name of Jesus Christ.  

Christianity is not a hierarchy of power like you see in the world with organizations.  It is a grassroots movement at the individual not the organization level.

And nobody anywhere cares one iota about what the “heart” of a group of controlling dolts on a small farm in Ohio is.
 

 

AMEN!!!!!!!!! 

Just checking in as have been in absentia for awhile. Wow, I am Very Sorry for all you endured, but believe I quite understand... And another Wow! for your perseverance in healing, all you have processed, and how well you shared your story...

19 hours ago, Rocky said:

There's quite a bit of commonality in how, as young people we were drawn to Victor's mess of a ministry.

I'm glad YOU (too, like me and so many others) are a survivor, Annio! 

Thank you Rocky!! 

On 9/10/2023 at 10:21 AM, Raf said:

Picks, faves, amazing moments?

Can someone explain how the Lions beat the Chiefs? Is that legal?

15 hours ago, Rocky said:

You could, apparently, no longer take Victor's word for it what it all, or any of it, meant.

That expression take his word for it jumped out and SCREAMED at me when I read your comment.

Isn't that why Victor NEEDED young people to join his movement, rather than older, more seasoned researchers with whom he would have been challenged on his numerous claims of what God actually meant?

I was 19 when I first learned of Victor's ministry and his take on "truth." I THOUGHT (at the time) what I responded to was an intellectually honest take on God, scripture and such. But really, reflecting back on my developmental place and emotional/social needs at that moment, I responded to something altogether different, a friendship at a US military base overseas where and when I had few people I felt I had much in common with.

But I digress, for Victor to effectively communicate with and proselytize more intellectually and emotionally mature people would have required him to be willing to listen and relate to people differently than those who eventually came to follow his ministry. But didn't he try reaching people with that kind of maturity for years with  minimal success? Wouldn't his success have required different communication skills? More open minded listening perhaps? More of an open mind to what other people, closer to being peers with him, had to say? People who would listen to him but pose difficult questions. Didn't he actually HAVE people like that come into his orbit... but for reasons unknown he didn't engender the kind of emotional connection he was able to get with the "young people?"

Did Victor have a temperament conducive to actual dialogue that could produce an understanding in two or more individuals which could reasonably be expected to include portions of each person's position. 

Could that be [part of] the reason he built a cult, instead of a community without demands on its followers?

 

 

INteresting!! Have a few Q's here - I remember him telling us that he had travelled various places and talked with various scholars; I think I used to have a few names in my brain but memory fails now.  Anyone else remember this?

AGREE re: his lack of interest in ACTUALLY deeply investigating and teaching various theological positions. E.g. Dispensationalism. Honest Biblical scholarship would have required him, when teaching a class on understanding the Bible, to have taught that there were OTHER POSITIONS, such as Covenant theology. But NO, there is only ONE WAY to interpret the Bible, MY WAY. Am sure others have posted, but I am just now seeing again more clearly, that his was a Sleight of Hand Trick to say that NO PRIVATE INTERPRETATION = the Bible interprets itself = MY INFALLIBLE INTERPRETATION. Anyone know where/how he he came up with this??? Wonder if BG Leonard leaned in this direction?? Thanks to anyone replying!!

On 8/11/2023 at 11:51 AM, chockfull said:

Your last sentence seems to be a sticking point for all of the splinter groups.   They can’t seem to admit “I was wrong” pursuing the TWI cult and its goals and idolatry.

It is interesting the conversation is progressing to the topics of “Love” and “Fear” or “Courage”.  These are more common tangible virtual desirable characteristics.  

Any religion should accomplish the goal of helping the individual to form the best possible version of themselves with respect to developing virtue.

In the TWI cult and splinter cults all the effort goes in to propping up the leaders as larger than life as opposed to developing virtue as an individual.

It is pretty clear when you examine facts Wierwille was a narcissistic preacher with a sex and alcohol problem who founded a cult of personality as opposed to being de frocked by his denominations slow moving judicial arm for attacking their missionary work and having an affair with his secretary.

The facts and human behavior patterns are undeniable.  Whereas imagined snowstorms on gas pumps are certainly called into question.

I guess there was a part of me that believed the snowstorm story and so I stuck it out with the group for a few decades.  But the cognitive dissonance adds up over time and people do not buy the snake oil after a time.  Truth comes out.  Despite all the whitewash effort which actually represents a bulk of their activity.

Want to be a TWI leader?  Here is your assigned paint brush and area to whitewash.

Well put!!! Rocky too!!. Am having anOTHER round of processing... I got involved in twi b/c of what was going on for me personally (some mental breakdown), and in the surrounding world/culture in the early 70's. E.g. All of my "spiritually-minded" siblings and cousins in New England turned to Eastern mysticism; we were SEARCHING. I had  become a Jesus follower, but saw emptiness and hypocrisy in fundamental  churches, and my hippie-ness was not welcomed. Been reading about Auroville in India- a Hindu (sort of) utopian community started in the 60s that drew ppl from around the globe, but turned out to promote similar types of magical thinking, leader-worship, conflict, extremism, etc. I was/many of us really thought we could CHANGE THE WORLD, eh? That idealistic youthful energy and belief. vpw took advantage of that... I very well could have joined an Eastern religous c ommunity instead of twi like my relatives, had it not been for God answering y prayers and leading me to saving faith in Jesus at age 16...    Best to ALL here!