annio

On 3/17/2023 at 8:21 AM, chockfull said:

So the dilemma here is a genuine young soul and a corrupt system...  

YES! Thank you much!!! Well spoken. And I sooooo appreciate ALL of the aboves!!!  

Topic: responsibility, forgiveness, and agency/choice-exercising

I appreciate this thoughtful conversation very much. Still processing and recovering myself but/and making good progress.  Am honestly still wrestling with the anger that I finally am in touch w/ re: how vpw et ALL (top leadership) brought further trauma into my life (I left in '88 after 14 years). (Since I was in the way corpse pretty briefly, I'm not sure that I adversely affected a whole lot of lives, but I do accept responsibility for those that I did hurt.) I find that I can hold various truths re: responsibility simultaneously, analysis follows :-p:

1) I can hold vp et all accountable as I believe the Bible directs me to, e.g. how Jesus held the Pharisees accountable for their abuses of power.

2) I can trust GOD to do what He says He will do when He says HE WILL REPAY righteously and fully.

3) I finally can and do authentically forgive the power abusers- recently I allowed God to minister to me when I thought about Jesus saying "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." My self-protective tough survival Fight walls were melted by God's compassion for and understanding of even vp et all, and I forgave them.

4) I am in the process of accepting responsibility for MY PART in spreading false doctrines, in furthering the mission of a damaging cult, and in supporting others who were doing the same; and of receiving God's forgiveness so I can forgive myself.

5) I am in the process of exploring AGENCY- Yes, ALL of the above folks came into some degree of agreement w/ vp et all, i.e., exercised their free will. BUT deeper attachment needs and survival flocking were involved for me and some others as well. (If of interest-"Flocking" is a recently named trauma survival strategy in which there is an INVOLUNTARY attaching to the nearest community, i.e. a PLACE WHERE ONE PERCEIVES THAT ONE CAN BE SAFE, whether that is actually true or not.) So I myself was in dire need of Safe Community in 1974, and I think was lacking full agency due to unmet attachment needs from my past. The mental breakdowns were severe, and this was my Only Hope at the time.

Thank you reading!! Onward!

i.e. the Jesus Revolution movie cut...

Of interest? This is from Glenda Sue Morris' FB page posted Saturday, with 102+ comments and contributions! "The Doops and Heefners moved in together in the spring of 1967, and around that time, along with Ted and Liz Wise and Danny Sands, they started the Living Room mission in Haight-Ashbury and ended up moving in together in Novato in the House of Acts. I moved to CA in 1972, so this was before my time, but I met them all and learned from them. They soon took in Lonnie Frisbee, and he's the one that opened up the work in Southern California. It's my belief, based on the book by Pastor John A. MacDonald called "House of Acts," that the Wises, Doops, Heefners and Sands were ground zero of the Jesus Revolution."

Then along came Dell and Nancy Dunca et ALL, eh? Someone thought that Donnie Fugit should make the movie cut...?

It was just cool to see these possible connections, and time travel back to The Past! (I was in Idaho back-packing in the very early 70's, not so interested in hand-raising Jesus folks, but searching never-the-less! Somehow or other, I still see the hand of God in my life when I got involved w/ the way in VA a few years later...)

19 hours ago, skyrider said:

Genuine Biblical principles and guidelines were sorely lacking in the upper levels of twi’s hierarchy.  The bedrock principles of true Christianity that they taught us were highly suspect:  True genuine wholeness and salvation, nope.  True redemption and righteousness thru our lord and savior, Jesus Christ, nope.  Genuine cleanliness washed thoroughly and throughly by the blood of the lamb, nope.  Genuine sorrow and repentance for the forgiveness of sin, nope.

Wierwille’s doctrine was a long-stemmed glass of red wine laced with poison.  Although it looked inviting to drink, it had all the makings of pre-planned deception.  If twi really valued us as individuals, as believers, then they would have treated us with respect and reciprocating love.  Instead, we were herded around as cattle for the price they could get from us.

 

Agreed. Wow, the treatment of one another that Jesus SO highlighted... GREAT POINTS!!! 

OK... Time for another round of processing after more general cult researching, and reading all of these latest great posts. Thank you all. Crying, journaling, feeling almost unbearable pain, then collecting myself, using my developing critical thinking, then giving voice to the me who wants to come out swinging!!!  Onward!! (Comparing twi to Christianity Today's "The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill", 25 hours of interviews, the last one of which was 2020 I think... Soooo helpful) Such a better job by some re: some repentance, some restoration, some closure, some genine following of Biblical guidelines!!!)

Thank you again!!!!!!!!!!

Thought I would share about Christianity Today's podcast series, ending on 11/10/22-https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/podcasts/rise-and-fall-of-mars-hill/. I am receiving a great deal of deliverance and understanding due to the depth and breadth of the exposure of a cult church, i.e. Mars Hill, with fascinating similarities and differences to twi; the responses of members and leaders; the consequent imploding and down falling; and the continuing cover up by the cult leader. THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTINUED CONNECTING HERE, ADMINS ET ALL!!!!!!!!!!   

Well, another afternoon being spent very profitably at GSC, thank you ALL.  Lots of copying and pasting in my journalings...  A few pretty scattered responses if I may:

1) Quote from Skyrider, Aug 7, 2020- "John Summ3rville.........TFI 1975,76 (Total Fitness Institute in California) the only man (as far as I know) who stood up to wierwille."  Well, I recall Ralph D recounting his confronting vp on his adulteries at a head hauncho meeting, but don't recall the year... and being summarily fired, put on house arrest, and shipped out. Or maybe that was Craig?? Hhhmmm...

2) T-bone's quote (sorry, can't find exact post now): "Just some quick thoughts here - with wierwille being an unabashed plagiarist and a control freak – maybe the creative process and creative people truly mystified him as something very foreign and outside his comfort zone – hence he would lower the boom...was it something that threatened him and his "leadership"? was he envious of creative people? Did he want to control the creativity of others?"

Possibly! Either way, I agree that it fits that vp's power, control, and narcissistic hold were threatened with the great word in culture movements of the late 70's; I loved the hippie crafts at that ROA! Bought some Really Cool Stuff!  I weep at what could have been...

3) I blindly followed cg in '88 along w/ lots of us in IN, so was really good (but tough) to re-evaluate POP (again!), and learn about the truths/various accounts re: Gartmore (and other locations).

4) Damn! re: vp disrespecting girls in that Way Home w/ his nakedness. More like terrorizing... Well, I just can't pull of being humorous about that behavior, as the actual spiritual impact of his unGodly disobedience (LOTS of verses) hits me.  Serious spiritual and personal abuse IMO, while not compared to the seductions, rapes, druggings, etc!

All for now, phew! Best to all!

Won't go into possible reasons for his choice to divulge those teen-age struggles, or his sharing about taking personality evals and the results...

So catching up here... In the About Me section of his website (which I can't find again right now) he only talks about his adolescent mental health issues of anxiety, depression, and suicidal thoughts; no football or Baptist church leadership... Hence his vulnerability to vpw/cult culture, eh?

That website writing sure is careless, or lacks maturity, or indicates real mental health problems IMHO... And the gobbledygook in one of the "teachings" re: the ocean being poisonous since the flood and ya better stay away b/c a tsunami might hit at any time????????  Oh boy, paranoia for one...

To share personally- don't know why I am crying right now... All of the tragedy around his life, mine and my family's, and so many others... I think I truly did love many and was honorably loved by friends... while staying very f'ed up from childhood-and-beyond trauma, etc. Oh well, for me some good did come, but/and it sure is painful to keep sifting thru the heart issues, separate the wheat from the chaff, and have the wounds exposed for healing. Nevertheless, ONWARD into lots of Awaiting Good. Best to you all!!

On 7/30/2022 at 12:31 PM, T-Bone said:

In some sense the overt and covert operations of TWI were entwined. Indoctrination is not an overnight process. Usually, a person does not knowingly join a harmful and controlling cult. The road in may best be described as a subliminal acclimatizing process – where a newcomer finds something - or someone attractive in the group and so they make themselves mentally adjust to the prevailing ideas, attitudes, and behavior to fit in.

To someone who has never had the experience of being indoctrinated into a harmful and controlling cult – the stuff they read about on Grease Spot Café probably sounds preposterous and almost unbelievable. It’s understandable that people who have never been in TWI – never taken any of their classes or participated in their programs find all this stuff so astounding - and that anyone would buy into it.

To understand how TWI-followers get to the point of being unaware of wierwille’s licentious and malicious nature is to understand how a sexual predator can be hidden in plain sight. It is by masking his nature in the guise of a man of God, a teacher of the Bible. It all started with the PFAL class – which had vague and misleading directives like “as long as you follow the two great commandments you can do as you full well please” and the dubious justification of David’s adulterous affair with Bathsheba saying “technically all the women of the kingdom belonged to the king”. 

I believe part of wierwille’s tactic was to run certain ideas up the flagpole to see if it was given a positive reaction. Like with PFAL, if you sat through the whole class and didn’t balk at anything – then everything is cool. If you stick around and continue to come to Twig fellowships – that’s even better! Then you’ll probably be encouraged to take the class again – for review – no charge this time, of course. Then on to other classes that continue to reinforce the idea that wierwille is THE authority on Bible stuff – and anything else in life.

Thus, if newcomers respond favorably to the initial “experiment” of malignant ideas, then many other soft-sell tactics come into play which subtly persuades them to buy into more of TWI’s ideology…And realistically there’s no one cut-and-dried method for ensnaring folks in a harmful and controlling cult. There are so many variables to consider like one’s personality, social needs…usually new recruits are young and naïve so critical thinking skills are not really developed…and the road to indoctrination is not shock therapy but rather a gradual immersion…

…it’s like a prolonged seductive intoxicating “romance”…a cult luring neophytes to take bigger and bigger sips of the Kool-Aid…using manipulative tactics like love-bombing, the subtle influence of peer pressure and groupthink......claiming to provide solid answers about life, having a purpose, God, politics, marriage, finances…whatever!

...sadly, those with low self-esteem (like myself) are often drawn to a cult-environment where they seem to be readily accepted – people with low self-esteem are usually easier to break mentally / emotionally. “Fortunately” for them the cult is there as just the perfect supportive environment they’ve been looking for – and along those lines a cult member can learn to feel superior to those not in the cult – an us-versus-them mentality develops and a cult follower starts isolating themselves from family and friends not in the cult – and eventually the new social ties within the cult satisfy a basic desire we all have – to belong…...a TWI-follower's personal boundaries are softened and eventually encroached by certain upper leadership who have a penchant to take advantage of their own position of power and authority.

Sometimes I recall the awkward social interactions shortly after my wife and I made our exit from TWI official   (we had sent letters to LCM and the Rome City campus coordinator – informing them we resigned from our corps assignment and would no longer associate with TWI. And it’s not like we didn’t give them a chance to explain things – since several months earlier we had written them and asked very specific questions about the issues we were concerned with - but all we got for a response from LCM was "I hope we can win your trust again").  

I was also done with the hemming and hawing over current issues, dubious policies / procedures, the “spiritualizing“ of situations and everyone assuming PFAL was the silver bullet for this complicated catastrophe – that was the usual gist in previous phone conversations and letters to our corps brothers and sisters and sponsors. What’s really painful is remembering the various responses from most of our fellow corps – most were a bit taken aback by our official exit. Some of the backlash rhetoric we heard: “you’ve been tricked by the devil”…”you’re entertaining devil spirits”…”you’re copouts”…”possessed”…”you have chosen oblivion”…

…mind you, this was in phone conversations and letters…

…I imagine if these were face-to-face conversations – they might have looked at us like we were from another planet.

Thank you T-bone. Apparently I still need to hear these excellent insights to keep gaining sight, detaching, and healing; not easy. Humor does help, as in gallows humor and your great pix and captions earlier!!! You have a gift!!  And so good about cult members susceptibilities, the trust-gaining processes, and vpw's strategies.  Again thank you! 

Very glad to pop into the cafe and find DWBH et all's explanation re: sources of doctrinal solidifyings in STF and Vince's church. At least I am glad that John S and Dan G spoke at the same gathering since 9 months previous they had split; indicates that they can be in the same room and not castigate each other...  HowEVER, I totally agree w/ DWBH's et all's assessment of their motives for joining up.

OMG, this is doing me sooooo much good T-bone!! Well done!!!!!!!!!!!   Reading to be continued...

On 7/17/2021 at 1:09 PM, Twinky said:

 

 

Sarah was a victim, too, of her parents' nurture of her.  As were all the Wierwille kids.  An abusive father, domineering and fickle; and a weak mother, who knew what was right and didn't stand up for it.

Some have said we're all victims of our parents.  Maybe so.  But as adults, we can also recognise that our parents were themselves flawed individuals.  Be kind, be compassionate, be long-suffering: but do take off the rose-tinted glasses.

There's quite a lot in the OT about the "sins of the fathers" being passed down through generations.  That seems to me to refer to nurture, habits of raising children, poor lessons learned from parents by children.  It doesn't mean that children "bear" the sins of their fathers and have to pay for them, it's more in the meaning of the children having learned from their parents' bad habits and not having learned better.  It might not even about sinful, criminal or quasi-criminal acts. It might include patterns of speech, curtness or courtesy; habits of action - miserliness or generosity; ways of treating other people; habits of life - slovenliness or orderliness.

Yet there are also promises of forgiveness if children shall turn away from the less socially desirable ways of their parents: a child of violent parents turns away from violence as his way of life; a child of a thief turns away from criminality as his way of life; a rude person realises it's not all about themselves and learns pleasantness towards others.  And a child of an abuser turns away from abuse, in whatever form, towards his/her own children and others around him.

Exodus 34:7 - Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Deuteronomy 24:16 - The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:19-20 - Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 

Numbers 14:18 - The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Deuteronomy 5:9 - Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

So thoughtful and true Twinky, re: childhood, and Sarah being a victim in some respects. Yes, very sadly... And thank you so much for the Biblical truths, and how our loving Heavenly Father guides, corrects, explains, teaches, ETC!!! Will give your post more consideration soon!

On 7/17/2021 at 9:22 AM, T-Bone said:

Hi again Annio,

having slept on it – the thought occurred to me that I was more concerned about digging myself out of a hole than listening to what you said...I also realize the shallowness and narrow-mindedness of my previous post...The thought never occurred to me to consider the perspective of evil done TO a person -    -  or any trauma they were powerless to prevent.

In the flow of this thread, I had in mind the three types of people in a harmful and exploitative cult: 1. the predator     2.  the facilitator     and     3. the victim...  

...a facilitator is a person who makes an action or process easy or easier – such as the process of exploiting or hurting others...I was a facilitator in TWI. I was not a predator nor a victim. By wholeheartedly supporting TWI with my finances, volunteer work, spreading their propaganda, and getting others to join this pseudo-Christian organization, I was making the work of the predators a lot easier by hiding the trek to the slaughterhouse from the eyes of the sheep... Facilitators don't necessarily have to know what they're really facilitating – like even a harmful and exploitative cult ...maybe that makes me somewhat of a victim too - getting suckered in to be a facilitator. 

Perhaps the lack of depth in my previous post came from old facilitator habits – thinking there's an easier way to fix this...I hope you can accept my sincere apology.
 

OMGosh, T-Bone, thank you SO VERY MUCH for your amazing replies! I am blown away by the depth, heart, and connections you make/offer. I will reread  all you wrote, and let it sink in. Perhaps it is all the more meaningful as my own daughter has suffered from tough mental health issues (depression, etc); thank you again for sharing all you did!!

On 7/6/2021 at 4:32 AM, WordWolf said:

"I love my father... Some people need to be grateful and remember that if it weren't for him, they would be dead. People stopped the move of the Spirit, (God did not stop working as much as He could)."

 

I'm sure you realize that sounds nothing like someone who is even AWARE of vpw's predations no matter their firsthand knowledge.  That sounds like someone who stopped short of saying "If he'd have lived to be 100, things would have been perfect" but sure THINKING it nonetheless.     So, some people owe vpw their lives, and some people messed everything up.

She doesn't owe anyone an explanation, and she's not required to face reality, of course.   But I thought you'd like to know, on the off-chance you missed that.

 

Oh MY!! WordWolf, REALLY appreciate this!!! Have shared and thought on these insights!!!

On 7/5/2021 at 11:34 PM, T-Bone said:

 

Great posts Annio! 
It seems to me you have a healthy, kind and mature approach in all of this…I just wanted to share a few thoughts you brought to mind…

 

…we humans are very complicated but imperfect social creatures…Back in the early 80s a very thoughtful TWI-clergy guy ran a Christian counseling seminar for all the Twig leaders in our area – in the seminar he referred to some of the works of Jay Adams.

After that I really got into Adams’ stuff for a while – though since I left TWI and expanded my horizons in theology, counseling, philosophy and psychology I don’t always agree with some of Adams’ viewpoints – but I do think he nailed it on two things:

1. sin is always the problem  

and  

2.interpersonal problems are usually never one-sided...the other person may have thrown the first stone - but I was quick to toss it right back at them!

Because we are very complicated but imperfect social creatures sometimes it doesn’t take a whole lot for interpersonal difficulties to fester and interfere with our ability to bond with another – sometimes it just starts over some personal slight…after 45 years of marriage I can confidently say it’s a fight to the death on who’s fault it was  - no, just kidding    …most of the time it’s a lot of work to just sort out and admit who opened the can of worms and what particular worm has some dirt on another worm…

Reconciliation is a big deal – not just with God, but also with people reconciling with people -  Matthew 5: 23 & 24     even puts it ahead of worship! 
 

The kindness in your posts is the polar opposite of the hard-heartedness I remember in TWI…There was a tendency to write-off people over so many things – “he’s tripped out of the ministry”   “she’s possessed”    “he’s wrong-seed”    "that whole group is off The Word" ...and sometimes certain leadership could be so vindictive toward someone who challenged them or criticized them - it would make you wonder if they were even Christian…

 

…guess I’ve become a real softie in some ways…I like to believe there’s always hope – that a person can change…I think reconciliation is the final step in the forgiveness process – it repairs the bond…

 

…I  even give wierwille the benefit of a doubt. I know I am very critical of the things he’s done – and it’s important to bring such abusive, toxic and hypocritical pseudo-Christianity to light in order to warn others (per clear directives like in   Matthew 7: 15-29    and   II Peter 2  )   …in saying I give him the benefit of a doubt – I mean I don’t get into trying to figure out his motivation or intentions. For all I know  wierwille truly believed he served God and God’s people. That doesn’t make everything okay – it makes him delusional. Since he’s passed away there’s no hope of forgiveness and reconciliation with him and his victims in this life…but who knows how God will resolve all the world’s messes in the next life…guess that’s still hope.
 

 

 

Do sooo appreciate your thoughtful reply T-bone! Appreciate alot about your perspectives. The only thing I will say now is that "sin being the problem" sometimes over-shadows how healing especially, and also deliverance at times, are to be sought and ministered, rather than correcting a "sin problem". In the field of mental health, I appreciate the  growing emphasis on evil done TO a person that he/she was to a significant degree powerless to prevent as in many traumas, genetic conditions, etc; as opposed to evil done BY a person. If you find this of interest...

Oh gosh, I will also add that I do not believe I was / others were totally a victim of circumstances (unless they were children; I experienced traumas thruout my childhood that did make me more vulnerable to adulthood abuses, but-)- to a degree, I put myself in the position of being groomed, of taking unwise risks, etc, as other victims have. Thank goodness we accept what responsibility is rightly ours so we can heal, recover, gain boundaries, warn others, and move on.

Clarification- when I spoke of the "many sexual abusers", I was referring to ALL of the powerful men that the media has exposed with the #MeToo movement, in the Catholic and Protestant churches, etc.

Well, am recently back from the CFFM 25th Anniversary "Reunion" weekend in Tipp City OH. A Very Wonderful Time for the most part, especially (for me) hanging out Saturday night singing lots of the old songs together, a healing time of joy and time traveling back to the GOD-blessed inspirational "I belong here" times, which a part of me still cherishes apparently. So there we were in the hotel lobby, some folks older and wiser most likely, but still enjoying "Daddy's Arms", "Eagle Inside", ETC together. Why not?? I just wept afterwards... Cleansing, delivering, connecting to the past with a new more whole me... Validating GOD'S good moving and Jesus' excellent working I think, in spite of EVERYTHING else that began to unfold later.  (I am very loosely connected to CFF; attend some weekend conferences in OH, and went to annual Family Camps in NH until Covid; enjoy teachings on their website occasionally.)

I am specifically writing about a few other things too- Tonya Schroyer, love her to death!, handled The Way several times briefly- shared again about being full of condemnation etc when she finally got out, but also said "We were taught well". And "I had a good beneficial time in the Way, I know some ppl didn't"...
But let's remember that his tombstone read "I wish I were the man I knew to be."  Then later four folks were honored with ordination among them Sarah Wierwille Guigou, and she spoke: "I love my father... Some people need to be grateful and remember that if it weren't for him, they would be dead. People stopped the move of the Spirit, (God did not stop working as much as He could)."

I stopped to think how the youngest daughter of vpw would feel, what she may have experienced hate-mail-wise, how she was kept from visiting her mother, or attending her funeral I believe. HOWEVER, having learned about the many powerful sexual abusers getting away with all of the cover ups, the knee jerk reactions of victim blaming and doubting, the deep suffering of the victims on various fronts and levels, and the general IGNORANCE  of people re: trauma and PTSD, I would have worded my statement a little differently if I were Sarah.-

I would have added "I know my father hurt and abused many people, and some of them are still suffering from the traumas they experienced in the Way. For this I am deeply sorry, and if there is anything I can do to help with their healing, I am available. Victims need to be heard, and their experiences validated."

The angry hurting side of me wants to help her add more, if I may- "My father was a lying, cheating, f____ing B_ST_RD. He abandoned his family. He betrayed my mother over and over. Yes his tombstone read "I wish I were the man I knew to be", but that was mostly a sanctimonious, hypocritical, self-pitying, facade. I pray for God to have mercy on his soul, and trust that He will bring justice for every single victim of my father's lust and power abuses. Amen."

Thank you again for this safe place to process and voice these things!! Maybe I should connect with someone at CFF about this so that I am not just venting here without actually addressing things. But I know blasting ppl doesn't work... Asking Qs is probably the way to get ppl thinking but not sure if that is really needed for myself or them... I have already written to Kevin Guigou and he was kind, so maybe that is enough for now. AND I talked with Sarah as well two years ago without laying any specific blame on vp, but therapeutic counseling is not her forte, which is fine.

To God be the Glory, great things He is doing, and Lord I/we have an eagle inside!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God bless!

Thank you SO much T-Bone!!! Will take time to reread your very thoughtful reply soon, and will check into viewing the movie. Blessings to you!

Back to process a little more with you kind smart supportive ppl.  The deep meaningful attachments to past way leaders are the toughest I find, to handle. I know it is like family members that one is contemplating breaking contact with (to varying degrees) due to toxic behaviors, etc.  E.g. the minister, G.E., a Very Good Friend, who married my (now ex-)h and me, and was honored and excited b/c he had just been put on full time staff as our Branch was growing; we were his first of three couples to marry that spring; G.E. then dedicated both of our children in the hospital after difficult deliveries; and he virtually gave his window cleaning business to my h. ALL of the weddings, ALL of the showers, ALL of the baby dedications, ALL of the meetings, ETC ETC ETC in our closely-knit fellowship that our branch coordinators supported... Then came the Loyalty Oath; agreeing with G.E. and becoming Geer-ites; being marked and avoided by 1/2 of those dear friends... ALL of the following havoc- divorce, trauma with the kids, etc etc.

Now thanks in large part to wonderful posters here at GSC, I am finally and fully identifying vpw's terrible abuses, wrong doctrine, and my naivete/misplaced trust, and how the demise of the way ministry was inevitable. I just became a full partner (member) in a local church b/c it is much safer, open, and more soundly based than the way EVER was. B/c of the PTSD I still have from the unsafe attachings, it is all part of the recovery process, apparently, to evaluate how much to interact w/ old way friends when the opportunity still pops up from time to time. FB is a great way to say Hi, like things, restore some of the connections from a distance. Guess I will still play it Very Safe, and carefully pick and choose what happens IRL; and be ready to exit if I trigger from anxiety (flight), or want to explode (fight) if someone starts defending vp, e.g. Oh BOY!

The Best Part about this Whole Process has been learning about how my Father, my Comforter, and my Jesus are fully functioning as Safe Present Nurturing Guiding places/beings to Fully Attach to and Trust In!! Just sayin' for anyone who has taken this spiritual path...

THANKS MUCH for listening!! Best to all here!! Onward!!

Thanks much Twinky!!! Great advice!

Appreciate this and You T-Bone!!

So glad for all of the previous insights!!! Was thinking this a.m. that in '74 I took PFull-of- class at a family camp in NY, then Renewed mind class camp, and a week later took CF&S at an Ohio camp. (The Wow's in southern VA had not signed up anyone else but myself and a co-worker who I talked in to accompanying me to the P-fil camp that year.)  Thus, I was hood-winked into plenty of error and idolizings, along with some good Bible, sure. But being clobbered over the head and fire-hosed with vpw's doctrinal slants, and being introduced to such nit-pickings as how many crosses or cock crows there were (2 Timothy 2:16- avoid pointless discussions)... This was soon followed with more grooming in CF&S and as I wrote in a personal journal- "SO, there i was hooked in... and two weeks later, i was being further groomed as one of the young women who would be privileged to be raped by your young bucks."  Am still in therapy and several support groups for various life traumas, and I WILL heal from this!! (Just decided to join a local church which is sooooo much safer, respectful, doctrinally diverse, truly loving, etc etc etc. Onward! And thank you again GSC-ers for the support, insights, and Truth!!!