Masterfully knee-slappingly articulated T-Bone!!!!!!

Will listen ASAP, thank you Charlene et al!

WOW!!! This fellow is a Truth Teller! The first 8 minutes are worth listening to IMHO- 1 Timothy 5:20 "...rebuke in the presence of all"=all who honored, were associated with him. "So what if he is dead (as of 5/20/20)? What in the world is the Holocaust Museum about? Hitler died (but his victims still suffered and some still suffer)."

On 2/8/2021 at 10:06 PM, T-Bone said:

Hi Annio… …what a courageous and honest post !!!

 …somehow I missed this thread - so I just wanted to add my 2 cents now…

 

You got me thinking about a few of ways that a double standard played out in TWI. A   double standard   is a set of principles that applies differently and usually more rigorously to one group of people than to another group.

One aspect of the double standard in TWI is the misogynistic tendencies as you mentioned. In the bigger picture as we all know, this is something not just confined to TWI – but at least in the outside world there have been some brave survivors coming forth and things like the  me too movement    to raise awareness and empathy and to advocate changes to laws and policies. I don’t ever see that happening in TWI.

 

Another aspect of TWI’s double standard that you and others have touched upon is the role that gender plays in determining one’s “status” within the group and how others should relate to them. Again this is not something peculiar to TWI… “Some believe that differences in the way men and women are perceived and treated is a function of social norms, thus indicating a double standard. One claim is that a double standard exists in society's judgment of women's and men's sexual conduct. Research has found that casual sexual activity is regarded as more acceptable for men than for women” from     Wikipedia - double standard  

 

 

And perhaps a third aspect of the double standard in TWI is a more general application of religious-grade hypocrisy – how cult leaders exercise control over followers…see  Matthew 23     and  II Peter 2   . Those passages lead me to believe maybe the problem isn’t always with a particular doctrine but rather how TWI puts it into practice – and even further, to what degree they enforce compliance.

“Doctrine is a codification of beliefs or a body of teachings or instructions, taught principles or positions, as the essence of teachings in a given branch of knowledge or in a belief system. Practice is the actual application or use of an idea, belief, or method, as opposed to theories relating to it.”  From Quora - what is the difference between doctrine and practice      

In my opinion there’s one big thing that sets apart an abusive religious cult like TWI from other groups. It’s not really about the sixteen thousandth teaching of “You Are Righteous Now”  - although I do tend to think some teachings like that can squelch one’s conscience when genuine repentance might be a more appropriate topic. The telltale signs of an abusive and controlling cult are the methods and tactics they employ to instill and reinforce certain ideas and attitudes.

 

I don’t believe the average Way-believer who has never seen anything more than the local fellowship, can really “appreciate” the intense indoctrination process of the way corps program. I thought it was going to be a college-level education in the Bible and shepherding the flock - you know, maybe along the lines of a seminary only much better cuz it was all based on "The Word" - - and I've even heard some corps refer to it as something like the school of the prophets mentioned in the Old Testament  I Samuel 19  II Kings 2  and II Kings 4  (some translations refer to them as the school of the prophets, a group of prophets, the company of prophets, or sons of the prophets ) ...

But it was more along the lines of a glorified PFAL catechism – with the student body being corralled to think in terms of predetermined questions and answers – - what does it say in PFAL about this or that?  we were drilled to know all the material of PFAL frontwards and backwards...we were often randomly called upon to give 5 minute teachings during one of the three meals in the dining room - and then we were critiqued right on the spot afterward; fyi - the teachings that quoted verbatim - with very little deviation - from one of the PFAL books received the highest praise and little or no criticism - I $hit you not!   
 

Among other things what really “helped me absorb”   this "doctrine" was the sleep deprivation, the work program (cheap labor - often busy-work and usually a big time-waster), the occasional tongue-lashing , being singled out for public ridicule over some minor infraction - after all details are important to God - - and the ever popular threat to throw your a$$ out the door if you didn’t comply with some directive. What is the point of all that? I’ll tell you - in case you didn’t click on the above link to Matthew 23 – I’ll quote verse 15 of it  here “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.” ....I think ideally the way corps program was designed to make little clones of wierwille.

 

 

On a side note – if I felt compelled to address doctrine - the biggest issue I have with TWI’s fundamentalist point of view is that it is more than just your typical strict literal interpretation of the Bible (and brushing aside any dubious teachings like the 4 crucified, the unforgiveable sin = being born again of the wrong seed, etc.)  TWI’s brand of fundamentalism is also infused with   magical thinking    which is the belief that unrelated events are causally connected despite the absence of any plausible causal link between them, particularly as a result of supernatural effects – “the law of believing” comes to mind.

 

 

 

Another thing you mentioned Annio, at the end of your post really resonated with me. You reflected on the good stuff you got out of your TWI experience. I think that’s a healthy way to deal with life. To NOT paint everything in broad strokes  -  but to think more deeply about experiences - to learn from mistakes and failures and to cherish any wins. I met my wife in TWI – besides meeting a lot of good people  - and that’s where I first learned to enjoy reading the Bible. It makes me think of the duality of life – which is made up of so many different and sometimes opposite elements. That’s reality.

 

One of the many reasons why life in the way corps was often an uphill battle for me was the heavy-handed pressure from top leadership to ignore or even deny reality. I was never salaried by TWI – so my wife and I worked regular jobs ( besides all the responsibilities we had of running a branch or area, running classes and coordinating advances, witnessing, under-shepherding, getting teachings together, counseling,  visiting Twigs all over town…and in different towns…with a kid in tow )  and we made our money stretch a long way for the cost of living…sometimes coming up short since we had it drummed into our heads as corps that abundant sharing was the highest priority when budgeting finances.

Over the course of some 34 years since I left TWI, I’ve learned that acceptance of reality is a lot easier than a denial of reality. Back in the day, I wasted more time and energy spinning my wheels listening to teachings on believing, making positive affirmations, conjuring up believing images of victory to try and make something happen.

I’m not saying be a pushover in life. Acceptance takes some guts to acknowledge what I cannot change or what is beyond my control - but also to step up to the plate when I can do something that’s within my power. Acceptance is how we look at ourselves and others. And rather than have hostility or fear toward someone who is different from me – though I sometimes falter at that – I think it’s better to be tolerant – even open and honest to find common ground – and yes, I still have a long way to go on that one too. Acceptance is being at peace with my own imperfections and failures and not beating myself up every time I fail or disappoint myself. I think what goes along with that is to be thankful for the ordinary things in life – I’ve got a roof over my head, I have food in the pantry, I have a family and friends who accept me as I am - warts and all.  I think that stuff keeps me grounded.

 

*** bonus feature on the duality of life: Skyrider started a thread a while back    -  cult survivors and the duality of life    ***

Thank you T-bone! I read and re-read your post, and am very grateful for your insights, truth-telling, and kindness. Switching from believing I was the failure to seeing that the counterfeit teachings and practices failed me/us is still taking some time... So good to be coming out the other end of the tunnel tho!  Blessings to you and yours!!

On 2/21/2021 at 2:13 PM, Twinky said:

It's true.  I completely lost sight of Jesus in my Way years.  Big concept of God, and who God is.  Lost concept of Jesus, and who he is.

 

TWAP.  Haha.  That's funny, so close to ... a word that might get changed if I write it.  T at the end.

 

The Way of Abasement and Powerlessness.  That'll do.

OMG, love your last re-titling!!! Even tho my years in twi (14), and in geer-land (18, rather absent-geer-land - where even WAS the dude?? I know in Maine, but writing from afar...) had many positive aspects, the abasements and powerlessness were very inter-woven.  And tragically, so was the absence of Jesus, along with the absence of vpw following the basic Biblical principals he taught, as John J shares in the video.  I know this is awkwardly expressed, but oh well, am feeling some more emotional upheaval... Thank you!!

If you might indulge me- At least with the #MeToo and #TimesUp movements, criminal charges and jail times are Finally Happening for Predators and Abusers!! It does me good with my recovery to know that vpw absolutely deserved and hopefully would have gotten a Whole Lot of jail time had he been operating in "this day and time and hour"! Lcm too.  I can imagine all of their victims filing into the court room, sitting down, and witnessing vpw enter the courtroom.  He would have been smart enough to not testify for himself and then be grilled by the prosecuting attorney, but it would have been soooo good to see him squirm as witnesses gave their testimony... Wonder what his legal team would have cooked up???

I know that hurting ppl hurt ppl, and that God's justice is balanced with His mercy. But right now, I say that a Lifetime prison sentence for the sexual and power abuses, the plagarism, and the extreme damage to many marriages and families is totally in order.  Am very glad that some powerful ppl are not getting away with the crimes that he did.

I really appreciate those replies! It's the PTSD I am still recovering from (relating to twi and also other traumatic experiences) that keeps my nervous system on high alert at times... But am doing better and not so afraid of triggering; I may trigger but can handle it better now. It WOULD be great to connect w/ one friend to begin with. One male leader in particular I shared a lot of confidences re: marital and personal struggles with, and am not ready to connect w/ him. I did extend an invite to the old friend, and hope to get together via zoom or phone :-) Gotta practice my deep breathing, and take what feels like a plunge; that's what trauma recovering is like tho.  Cheers!

14 hours ago, WordWolf said:

Just thought I'd share this, for those who haven't read it before.

1 Corinthians 7 King James Version (KJV)...

...As he told J1m D00p, "if God had meant it meant man was supposed to keep his hands off,  "It would have said 'best' and not 'good.' "      At the time, J1m thought he must have misunderstood vpw somehow, because it sounded like vpw had said that he believed God Almighty was fine with ORGIES.     So, off the record, vpw said things like orgies were OK with God Almighty, and on the record, vpw said things like orgies were NOT fine with God Almighty.

 

Thank you and WOW! And Damn and #$%@& and WT#$%@!!!

Picking up here re: some emptiness... Any thoughts??-

So here's my story- old friends, Branch coordinators (w/ twi and w/ Chris Geer) who left town around '93, have returned, and have finally moved out of Chris Geer mode (and into Gerald Wren's sphere apparently). They had married my h and me in '86; us believers here were a very close knit bunch until things began to fall apart a few years later. Several other folks who moved away (geographically or from my fellowship group) are back too and are joining the above folks around GW. One of them connected w/ me, and invited me to fellowship w/ them / listen to GW phone hook-up. Not going to as I mentioned in another post, BUT!

There are still attachments from back then that were unceremoniously severed amidst trauma, and I want to reconnect, heal, and re-establish things on present day Realities. But am NERVOUS! Part of me knows that it could be like going to one's 50th highschool reunion- the emotional ties just won't be there any more. But that would be good to process. Plus I think it could be really good to catch up with them; an awful lot of H2O has gone under our bridges!  And maybe later, I would want to find out where they are at doctrinally, and enjoy what we do have in common, and allow gracious room for what we don't... IF they can, and do not become dogmatic etc. Guess that is what I am most nervous about... We were all buddy-buddy and kind to each other when we were "like-minded" around vpw-ianism, but what about now?

Well, Covid would only permit phone calls for me, so actually going out for coffee won't happen for awhile... Maybe sooner than later tho... Anyone have similar situations? Thanks!

Well. Gerald Wren and wife made their way to Bloomington IN a few months ago. Got invited to listen to a phone hook-up on Weds... Reading DWBH's thoughts here again clarified things for me; nope, not going to fellowship w/ those folks, even though I would really like to reconnect with old friends that have moved back to town, or who are emerging from Cris Geer land and coming into GW's ministry apparently. Altho Who Knows what things may have changed in GW's thinking since 2016 when DWBH last posted I think? Still don't feel led to join old friends around him.

Anyway, thank you for being here GSC-ers! Best in 2021!!

Soon enough in the organic processing of healing, naming, finding true safety and Godliness.

19 hours ago, WordWolf said:

That's entirely possible.  However, he shows so many signs of psychopathic/sociopathic behaviour that I tend to think that his response was because we weren't people to him, we were RESOURCES.  So, when we thought for ourselves and dared to disagree with him, he took that personally because he was entitled to do all our thinking for us.

Damn, still need to let that sink in further... You are CORRECT I believe. Best logical explanation for ALL of the abuse, narcissism, tunnel vision, and total disregard for the destructive consequences of his actions- that hurt us young ppl he supposedly sacrificed so much for in the All Noble Mission of W O W... Well, just feel like puking it all up which I will soon. Thank you WW.

Perhaps extreme denial also resulted in him being delusional, and believing himself to be persecuted when way corps folks did not revolve their vocations or vacations around his programs...

Whoa HO! T-Bone!! HI HO Silver!! Excellent info re: counterfactual thinking, etc, AND Hell yeah!! re: below. Rippin'!!! Ripping up the enslavement, conscience-dulling strategies, idolatrous holds, etc. You have inspired me to come up with my own "Ride em cowgirl" scenario.

On 10/16/2020 at 12:37 AM, T-Bone said:

"I've fantasized about time travel – or maybe it's more like a Quantum Leap episode – where I'm actually back in one of my TWI experiences – but I know then what I know now – and also have the nerve to stand up for my convictions – sort of a new and improved me displacing the wimpified spineless dullardesque core of my being…I can just imagine the re-make of the pajama party incident in my first post: We've just finished watching that sick doggie/women porn video, old Pervertwille is now showing that porn pen to the 16 year old girl. Suddenly I jump up while at the same time bellowing out some primordial roar that has amassed such force that I can no longer contain it. Of course all eyes are now upon me – but my eyes are locked in with his – I can hear Maverick's voice in my head "I've got tone, I've got tone!!!!!!!!!!" And then I slowly…deliberately…with all the emotion and drama of a thespian on steroids I say, "It is a disgrace for me to be here today. Why don't you just pack up all your perverted paraphernalia, Spanish Flies, Jedi mind-tricks – along with your lecherous weird-willie, get on your mobile-sacrificial-altar-for-sex-slaves [a.k.a. the Motor Coach] and get the heck out of Rome City."

On 10/16/2020 at 12:37 AM, T-Bone said:

On 10/16/2020 at 12:37 AM, T-Bone said:

 

It's wrong to not get angry at the stuff VPW did! Putting my conscience on the back burner is wrong on my part! It is a sin of omission! I don't know - is there such a thing as hijacking someone's moral compass?

Agreed re: sin of omission, thank you; something to be repented of. And also good Q. I can trace the gradual hijacking of mine no doubt.

On 10/16/2020 at 12:37 AM, T-Bone said:

my counterfactual thinking represents how I learned to wake up from a Kool-Aid drunken stupor and grow a spine.

I tend to look at my bad cult experiences as some costly battle scars that have made me thick-skinned... armor-plating against ravenous wolves.

Amen, excellent re-framing I'd say. Ah! "re-framing" as in carpentry, and as in rebuilding our spiritual, mental, emotional houses upon the foundation of Truth and Love, with the precision and care of skillful kind workers in the true House of God, the Body of Christ, and helping others to do so as well. I have definitely used counterfactual thinking a great deal to restructure broken places, and to bring life into deadened and immature parts.

Your post was so rich T-Bone! Gotta move on, but thank you for it all!!

Hey, catching up here, and wondering about something that is healing and fun to envision, I think with some Reality to it anyway - how a small but effective #MeToo movement might have influenced twi starting at corps week/ROA in '80?

I can envision myself having recently been seduced by Pa#l Virgil#o, hearing him be excused by vpw from the front stage during the public confrontation at that big top corpse meeting. (Hence this thread.)

Huh! So at that point, I could have sought and kept seeking doctrinal and emotional support from ppl like the two women leaders (one a limb leader, the other a large branch leader) that I heard upholding Biblical morality saying that fornication and adultery are wrong, (one earlier in '80; the other in '83 when she accusingly confronted me about having sex with my limb leader, which incidents I had reported myself... Oh well.)  Maybe sound clear sexual doctrine could have had some influence; maybe some ppl tempted to follow vpw's example/teachings/inferrences would have received the doctrine/reproof/correction and controlled their libidos; maybe some ppl would not have been sexually abused and avoided that suffering. Maybe folks would have come back to following Jesus, and His oh-so-clear teachings on self-control, the  sanctity of marriage, etc... And Paul's teachings too!!!

Of course, one way or another we most likely would have had to leave the organization; Jo#n Schoenh#eit was fired less than 6 years later... But I think much good could have come out of declaring and living The Truth, and looking back, such a splinter group could have provided many Godly benefits that Christian movements did give young ppl during the '70s and '80s.  My fantasy(?) continues - Maybe some faithful brothers would have joined... Maybe more and more women would have come on board... Maybe a Top Leader or two or three would have repented or spoken out for the voiceless, and begun teaching sound doctrine??    The End.   Blessings to you Cafe bro's and sis's.

Oh yes, I am getting very good professional support Grace, thanks. So glad you are doing well too!

I appreciate your coming alongside Grace and sharing. <3  Am very glad you are recovering, and YES, it is a LIFETIME process for many of us. Often only those who have  experienced it can truly understand, eh? Best to you!

Hey, am trying to post this in a relevant recovery thread...

So! Review- What is it that attracts some ppl to the claims of a cult leader especially in uncertain times? And what are some better paths?  My thoughts for starters:

1) Do NOT Look for safety in an uncertain world without tools to discern con artist leaders with their abusive practices.

Recommended: GET TOOLS! Look Only to God, or do what grounds You if you need that.

2) Do NOT Latch on to the idealistic idea that ONE human leader or system (theology, culture, political group, denomination, etc) can have THE corner on Truth or Best Practices, etc.

DO- Enjoy exploring, debating, allowing for nuances, differences in experiences, cultural backgrounds, etc. Look to the Bible if so inclined, for a look at how the early church enjoyed diversity yet stayed faithful to Jesus teachings and sound doctrine.

3) Do NOT Buy into the idea that sacrificing to/for these idealistic, black-and-white-Truth-carriers is logical and good. Let yourself get burned out, stay in co-dependence.

DO find your own balance re: giving and healthy self-care, etcc.

Thank you again for providing a good place to process these things!

INteresting, I agree T-bone, and Yes! Twinky.

14 hours ago, JavaJane said:

THIS.  THIS.  

This is why I could not leave the group for so long.

1.  My family went into the FC when I was just over the age limit.  So, my entire family left me behind. - RELATIONSHIP WEAKENED

2.  Abandoned, I had nowhere else to go, so I obeyed my parents and went WOW so that I could have some kind of support around me.  WOW became my family.  FAMILY RELATIONSHIP REPLACED BY TWI

3.  I stayed in Las Vegas with some of the WOWs on my team afterwards - where else would I go?  My family was still in FC for another 2 or 3 years. FAMILY EVEN MORE WEAKENED

IT WAS THE RELATIONSHIPS THEY KEPT TRYING TO DESTROY.  IT WAS THE RELATIONSHIPS THAT GOT ME OUT.

MORE HARMONY IN THE HOME??  That was a LIE from hell

Wow, JJ, well done! I so ID with the highlighted sections above!! Pretty amazing what we can endure sometimes...  So glad you have reconnected well with families, and thank you for processing/telling your amazing Life Story here!

Last  post for now! Re: the fear factor for some who stayed in twi into the 2000's (that I know of), and another contrasting person:

I may have shared before... When I visited HQ in '09 and had my car tires about 3 inches onto the property, the Security guy told me to leave. I engaged him a little, told him I just wanted to pray there for a bit as I had not been back in 21 years. Got no where of course. Then I asked "What if I don't leave?" The paranoia was very apparent- his eyes just kind of glazed over and he appeared to dissociate; the terror of not doing his job well enough? Outer darkness awaited!! I left.

The second time I visited 3-4 years ago around Sunday afternoon service time, and couldn't resist taking pix of some of my favorite places, and got a security fellow who was more feisty; when I explained that this had been my home and I'd been in the ministry for 14 years, etc, it got competitive! He had been involved for 30+ years! I tried to establish that we wre bro and sis in Christ, but to no avail.

Oh well, such were my adventures upon returning to HQ!

Food for  thought? Hope of interest to some... Am processing a little/lot more, heh heh: from an article based on the book ‘Terror, Love and Brainwashing: Attachment in Cults and Totalitarian Systems’ by Alexandra Stein © 2016 (She quotes other authors from time to time); "There are five features of a totalist system I had identified based on Arendt and Lifton’s work." -

1) "... the leader is both charismatic and authoritarian. ... "Not all leaders want to get rich, gain sexual favours, or grab political power. But all want utter control over others." [Yep]

2a) "‘In the centre sits the Leader, separated by an inner circle who spread around him an aura of impenetrable mystery’. These leaders rule over isolating, steeply hierarchical and closed structures, some with front groups serving as transmission belts to the outside world."  [Loyal wow's and way corps were promoters? The early power grabs and reassigning way corps often without their needs/requests being considered; sending out wow's by "revelation"..." Maybe sometimes, I really don't know...

2b) "...followers [way corps in residence, ppl at on staff at root locations], face a triple isolation: from the outside world, from each other within the closed system, and from their own internal dialogue, where clear thinking about the group might arise." [Lock box, Chris Geer's role, other virtual pimps, fire hosing repetition of PFAL and other classes, etc]

3) "The third element of totalism is the total ideology:... The exclusive belief system is controlled entirely by the leader, empowering him or her through the creation of a fictional world of secrets and lies."  [Yeah, the dispensationalism IMHO, hidden plagiarizing, vp's perverted sexualized stuff...]  "‘After a while, things that seemed preposterous seem normal’ The fictional, invented quality of the total ideology reinforces the confusion and eventual dissociation experienced by followers."  Damn!  "...no questions or doubts are allowed. Should you voice your concerns, a network of monitors will turn you in for reeducation. Should that reeducation fail, then you are cut from the group, never to speak with your former compatriots again."  [I definitely experienced that in Sept '88 when I and others were not going to be loyal to LCM; best friends M&A-ed us...]

4) Here's where it gets pretty deep and psychological; not all in the way were/are thusly trapped I think, but I was...] "For a totalist system to wield complete control, the leader must tap fear. The process of brainwashing that totalist systems engage in is one of psychological, coercive manipulation where the leader or group alternates terror with ‘love’. Bowlby said that when we are frightened, we don’t simply run away from the fear, but run to a safe haven, ‘to someone…’ – and that someone is usually a person to whom we feel attached. But when the supposed safe haven is also the source of the fear, then running to that person is a failing strategy, causing the frightened person to freeze, trapped between approach and avoidance." [Again, obviously some experienced this more than others. I had experienced lots of trauma with my parents and in a first marriage, and had no where else to go... Until I finally recovered enough from the traumas to Look Only to God, begin to question the spiritual emptiness in the Chris Geer fold, and begin to explore other Christian groups.]

5) "Having disabled logical thinking about the traumatic relationship, the leader can then introduce even more of the fictitious ideology to explain away and redirect the follower’s terror. It’s a positive feedback loop with a biochemical element: physiologically, the victim is engaged in an effort to manage their cortisol or anxiety levels by seeking proximity to a safe haven, but never succeeding in attaining adequate comfort. It is for this reason that we can predict that cultic systems will attempt to interfere with and control any alternative attachment relationships a person might have. To fail to do so would allow the follower to find a safe haven elsewhere and potentially escape the emotional and cognitive control of the group. This is the same thing we see in controlling relationships such as in cases of domestic violence, of the Stockholm Syndrome or, frequently, with pimps and prostitutes, as well as in human trafficking."  [I did not stick around long enough to experience this, but a few folks I knew did.]

Ah, gotcha T-bone, Rocky, and Galene And thank you waysider for the colorful table-stabilizing idea!

Seriously, I suppose some ppl who have never known any Bible whatsoever would benefit from learning about Romans 10:9-10 e.g., SITing, and various other Bible verses. Maybe they could benefit from some truths, and then SPLIT! when the pressure starts being applied. (I know about a friend's son who was being pressured to give up his epilepsy medications and save $$ for their foundational class, and who finally stopped attending local fellowships...) So I will resist the temptation to respond to a request for materials by sending em my ripped up pages with lots of cross outs and comments in the margins!

Well, I connected w/ John Schoenheit et al for a bit about 3-4 years ago, and was talking with a very respected leader in S&TF who teaches/counsels on recovery from various spiritual and sexual abuses. She clearly intimated that for a good while up til rather recently(??) JAL had enough of that "helping himself" mind set that S&TF would not have anything to do with him or his ministry. Of course JAL has had serious health issues, and I pray for him, BUT just sayin... She (am protecting her anonymity), also shared the statistic that 1/4 - 1/3 of all pastors/priests have been sexually abusive of atleast one congregant (had an affair, etc, etc). Not sure of the time frame for that; maybe it has changed?? Just like Drs being in a pressured vocation and being addicted to drugs, church pastors are susceptible to the trusting put-you-on-a-pedestal young women or children, and to porn which can be a gateway to sexual abuse. Am NOT excusing the abuse, believe you me. Just saying that the way is not alone in this... Duh.

Also, I encountered an older "believer" my age about 5 years ago who often taught at an ex-way-type fellowship, who would have gladly carried on with me if he could have, and who was simultaneously "witnessing" to someone with whom, yep, he began a sexual relationship. (They finally did get married... He's a good guy in many ways, and maybe he IS changing or has been convicted in a healthy way.) I am just saying that the influence of that deceptive mind set is still alive. And as DWBH has already said, re:  the many men who participated in the culture's Help Yourself abuses, If you have NOT APOLOGIZED AND MADE AMENDS, THEN YOU ARE STILL GUILTY OF THE ABUSES.