vickles

I don't know what you call it but most of you either have a pic or image to your name. How do you do that? Also, how do you do a signature? Thanks for any help you can give me.

After being away for many years it might be surprising what we do actually hear from a teaching of his. Every once in a while I will see something or hear something that was taught and it blows my mind that I actually believed that .....

thanks, wordwolf for clarifying it for me. I've decided to either not read his posts anymore or skim through it lightly. It is more entertaining to read the comments afterwards. I don't think mike gets it when he thinks he is all right and everyone else is all wrong. There is no black and white. Hidden messages in vpw's work? ha Give me a break. There must be electrodes going in his brain. I would be more sympathetic and/empathetic if he would be at least a little bit meek and willing to say that we all are equal and maybe we know stuff from the Word. I had enough mastering of the PFAL for 14 years. And who is to say who has mastered enough and who is to say they are the master? What is it in the Word that talks about pride and falling?

Ok all I changed the title. Does it sound better?

thank you so much nolongerlurking. I am having fun and learning quite a bit. Although I have been out of twi for 16 years I realized I have even more healing to do. My partner was not in twi so its hard to talk to him about it. He is a very understand fellow so that has helped with our relationship. He is the one that brought up about vpw being a sociopath to me. Gosh, someone from the outside looking in. What he sees in me he says is since I was in twi for a lot of time is that I'm too trusting and too niave. He says that I've been sheltered for most of my life. Which is true if you think about it. Those of us that were in it for a considerable amount of time wasn't allowed to listen to outside music, watch tv, or hear the news because it was too negative. Yes we were sheltered in a lot of ways. About five years ago I went to this therapist said that she felt I was angry because I missed the times that others went through their teens and early adulthood and I wanted to make up for the time. Oh I did that for a while and now have been able to settle down. I couldn't be in my mid fourties and act like a teen.....lol

Hey anyone, do you know how to change the title of this thread? I think it would be a good idea.

Wordwolf, Thanks, I think. I don't know how to take that. Was that a complement or was that a put down in my direction? If it wasn't a put down please accept my apology. I just wanted to clarify.

Invisibledan, Thanks for sharing that thread. I looked it up and sure enough there it was. Thanks

nolongerlurking, I am so sorry that you took offense to that. It wasn't intended. I believe that mental illness is a physical illness as you say like diabetes, and other illness's. There is nothing wrong with having one. My daughter suffers from bipolar. When she is on meds she leads a very productive life. But if she wasn't on them her life would not be productive. But, what vpw obviously had was not a mental illness. What he had was not treatable. And even if he did it was left untreated. I would never say that it was a devil spirit. I guess when I started the thread I did not realize that some would take it that way. So please no insult at all. You are a wonderful person I'm sure. I don't want this to end up as a witchhunt either. Just that it was interesting to see that there was definintely wrong somewhere!!!! And that we could learn from it. Nolongerlurking thanks for sharing that. It took guts in here to share that and I appreciate it.

Well, for one thing I think it would be up to you what you wanted to do. I mean if you wanted to go on quietly to go on behind the scenes. I for one would leave and not have anything to do with the guy. I wouldn't mark and avoid. But I would go on with life and read the Bible for myself. This is a big world after all.

I can't believe I read the whole thing!!! Mike I really feel for you. I read the lost tape and heard something completely different than you. I heard a man that was paranoid and suspicious. Til his dying day he was still a man. He saw that people were turning and tried to make it so people would go back to the PFAL material. Did you ask yourself why he did that? Why didn't he say go back to the Word of God? Because he wanted people to still worship him. His whole life was a lie. Now its your life. That is really sad. I felt sick reading about how you thought men actually treated women like that and that you were sometimes envious. And that women thought the same. I have never experienced that except for when I was in TWI. Good men never do those things and I think they would be sickened by it. I have noticed how you put women down on this thread. By little words. It reminds me of when I was in TWI. I also think that seaspray and you are the same. You are just trying to stir things up. I seriously hope that you get help but then people like you don't think you need help. Could you please get off of your pedastal? I would never listen to someone that believes that VPW's work was God breathed. How ridicules. (sorry I know the spelling is wrong) Why don't you take the advice and get rid of his works and look into the Word for a change? I did and it changed my life. Oh btw, you mentioned earlier that some people think that they hear God but it really isn't. Have you thought that maybe the voice that you hear maybe not His? I think its ironic that for years I heard from VPW himself that cancer was a devil spirit and then he died from it. Can't you see that all the people he hurt that were believers that maybe he was not the called? If he was from God and called from God he would have never done the things he did with the people that loved God with all their hearts. Mike, he ruined peoples lives for heavens sake. I mean ruined for his own twarped following. For that reason alone I got rid of all his books and will not even look at them. I will never trust someone like I did him and TWI.

excathedra, I think that is all we wanted and we mistook everything for God's love. Yes it is sad and sick. I don't think too many can deny that they have seen these things if they are honest with themselves, do you?

Freeborn, lol It sounds like my ex also. And he is still is a fan of vpw. mmmmmm Did we have a lot of sociopaths in twi? Maybe so. Dot, thanks for the warning. I think I understand why they still believe in him. I went through that also when I first left. We are all in different stages of healing. Sometimes its hard to realize that we followed someone that actually had these problems. If people didn't have the opportunity to spend time with him then it would be harder to acknowledge. I know that some believe it was the changing of leadership that was the problem. I'm sorry folks but the problems were there from the very beginning. We just didn't see it. That is hard to admit that we were snookered and maybe did some wrongs in the name of Christ. I know I did. All I have to say is if they believe it or not its up to them. We all are free to believe what we want to and hopefully those that do still believe in vpw will come around sometime. But please remember this, if we are born again then we are all believers. Just because I don't believe in vpw and his work does not mean that I'm any less than you are. Nor does it mean that I am greater than you. God loves us all whether or not we believe in the same writings. You and I are the same as a christian that is baptist, methodist, lutheran, catholic, and etc. We are no more special than any other son or daughter of God. Or I should say that we are all special including the baptists, methodists, lutherans, catholics, and the etc's.

here is another that is more interesting. I looked up the word sociopath, by gosh I think I've got it..... Profile of a Sociopath A number of mind-manipulating cult leaders may exhibit many of the behavioral characteristics of a sociopath-an outstanding ability to charm and seduce followers. Since they appear apparently normal, they are not easily recognizable as deviant or disturbed. Although only a trained professional can make a diagnosis, it is important to be able to recognize the personality type in order to avoid further abuse. These traits also apply to a one-on-one cultic relationship. Glibness/Superficial Charm Language can be used without effort by them to confuse and convince their audience. Captivating storytellers that exude self-confidence, they can spin a web that intrigues others. Since they are persuasive, they have the capacity to destroy their critics verbally or emotionally. Manipulative and Conning They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They dominate and humiliate their victims Grandiose Sense of Self Feels entitled to certain things as "their right." Craves adulation and attendance. Must be the center of attention with their own fantasies as the 'spokesman for God," "enlightened," "leader of humankind," etc. Creates an us-versus-them mentality Pathological Lying Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistant basis. Can create and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and able to pass lie detector tests. Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way. Shallow Emotions When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises Incapacity For Love While they talk about "God's love" they are unable to give or receive it. Since they do not believe in the geniunes of their followers' love, they are very harsh in testing it from their devotees and expect them to feel guilt for their failings. Expects unconditional surrender. Need for stimulation Living on edge, yet testing the beliefs of their followers with bizarre rules, punishments and behaviors. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal Callousness/Lack of Empathy Unable to emphasize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them. Their skills are used to exploit, abuse and exer power. Since the follower cannot believe their leader would callously hurt them, they rationalize the abuse. When devotees become aware of the exploitation it feels like a "spiritual rape" to them. Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others. The followers only see them as near perfect. Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends, aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc. Irresponsibility/Unreliability Not concerned about wrecking others lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devatation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blame their followers or others outside their group. Blame reinforces passivity and obedience and produces guilt, shame, terror and conformity in the followers. Promisuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity Totalist leaders frequently practice promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts. This is usually kept hidden from all but the inner circle. Stringent sexual control of their followers, such as forced breakups and divorces, removal of children from parents, rules for dating, etc. Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future. Many groups claim as their goal world-domination or other utopian promises. Great contrast between the leader's opulent lifestyle and the followers' impoverishment. Support by gifts and donations from the followers who are pressured to give through fear and guilt. Highly sensitive to their own pain and health Criminal or Entrpreneurial Versatility Changes their image and that of the group as needed to avoid prosecution and to increase income and to recruit a range of members. Is able to adapt or relocate as needed to preserve the group. Can resurface later with a new name, a new front group and a new twist on the scam Other Related Qualities: Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them Authoritarian Secretive Paranoid Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired Conventional apprearance Goal of enslavement of their victim(s) Exercises depostic control over every aspect of the victim's life Has an emotional need to jusify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (repect, gratitude and love) Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim Incapable of real human attachment to another Unable to feel remorse or guilt Extreme narcissism and grandiose May state readily that their goal is to rule the world The above traits are based on the psychopathy checklists of H. Cleckley and R. Hare I hope you all don't mind that it was so long....It was just so interesting that I just had to post this.....thanks for your patience!!!

its interesting that you brought narcisstic, so I looked it up and thought I would copy what I found....so here it is if your interested. Narcissistic Personality Disorder Diagnostic Criteria A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following: has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as a superior without commensurate achievements) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-staus people (or institutions) requires excessive admiration has a sense of entitlement,i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectatons is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with feelings and needs of others is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes Interesting....huh?

would you please explain what characterlogical means? It sounds interesting. Thanks

thanks excathreda for replying....I will look it up on that thread. I'm glad to find I may not be off base.

This is my first time posting. I was wondering since being out in the world for several years after twi if anyone else started thinking if vpw had mental illness problems. I know that he loved to be idolized, the same was with hitler. I think I was in a meeting one time with him and I believe he is the one that brought up the father in the Word thing. I also remember being a wow in cincinnati and him telling us that if it wasn't for us doing such a fabulous job that the whole city would have literally went into the river. Not too long after that they kicked our branch leader out and replaced with a new one. I know that he would change things according to who he was with. And he manipulated people to do what he wished via sex with women, etc. I may be way off based but I did notice some people on here working in the mental health field. I'm sorry if I may offend anyone by this but I am curious. [This message was edited by vickles on March 31, 2003 at 7:36.] [This message was edited by vickles on March 31, 2003 at 11:11.]