vickles

knowing you three were the best times I had in twi. I learned that I could have fun and not be so religous. I also learned from you all that it really didn't matter what others thought. It was ok to be different. Its so nice not to have to read those pfal books anymore....can you imagine???? Having to get a concordance out for vp's books? That is going way too far in my book. Not having to put up with people putting us down. For us to listen. Just as mike does at times. mike your not making much sense at all. You are going around in circles and changing a word here or there whenever you choose. I'm still wondering what those signs, miracles and wonders....... Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!

I have and you are rather a stubborn guy.... :D--> I would love to see you in 'action' once again. I remember you all debating...man you were good.... Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!

Nice choice in scripture alfakat!!!! I still don't think he will get it though.....me thinks he has a thick skull. --> Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!

ok, I'm basically computer illerate......I'm just not getting it as far as being able to put pics up in the posts. Is there somewhere I can go that will give me the baby steps? It can't be that complicated, can it? Its like a foreign language to me. I really, really would appreciate any kind of help!!!! Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!

Thanks so much for your response. What you said was very very true. Yes, I'm so glad to not be in twi anymore. I don't have to shoulder the guilt anymore. I thought I had worked through this but when I started thinking about it it all came back. I really don't know why but now at least I can work it out of my system in a healthy way. What a great way for someone to let you know. That was very smooth and a very kind way for him to do it the way he did. Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!

I'm glad its better today. There is nothing like having over a couple hundred people at a meeting and your name is called for something. They had me stand up in front of everyone. Its like they wanted to strip my whole life with it. Its a very humiliating experience. After it happened no one would look at me. I thought it was because they were embarrassed they even knew me. Now looking back I think it was because they were afraid that it would happen to them since a lot of them had been guilty of it. I think for honesty it should be done in a very loving way if you need to tell someone. Not to humiliate them but to let them know so that they can be a better person. Heck ex, I thought I was over it and by gosh its still hurting. That was many years ago but I think it does something to the psych. Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!

I was one of them that was humiliated. And let me tell you that it did something to my self confidence that is for sure!!!! And they call that God's love? Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!

is she the one that is from wisconsin and was up in seattle for a while? If that is her she was a very very nice person. I got to know her well and would love to know where she is hiding these days. She wasn't married when I knew her. Is this the same one? Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!

'I think that poking around for reports of miracles is a false way to search for the truth. Jesus said signs miracles and wonders would follow BELIEVERS confirming the Word.' I'm not poking...I'm merely asking. If your so set on trying to get us to believe everything I was just wondering if your experiencing any of that. Very honest question. You seem to want to confirm so....are you seeing signs miracles and wonders that jesus said? Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!

'Until this very recent change in approach, you?ve come across as a pretty negative and untrustworthy character to me. I don?t want to think evil of people, so just the slightest change in your approach and I?m willing to explore the sincerity behind it.' Look mike, I don't really know what your talking about. I haven't had a hidden agenda. Just recently you wanted my phone number so that we can talk. You didn't think I was untrustworthy then. I haven't changed. Nor have I been that negative. I've only tried to point out things or questioned. If you think that makes me untrustworthy then I guess that is what you think. I can't nor will I try to change that. Your using an old twi tactic. Put down. I have seen a lot of put downs that you have said to others. I'm not in twi anymore and really don't have to shut up. I can honestly question. I haven't posted on here much just for the fact that I'm not going to get into that with you. I think I've stuck pretty close to speaking the Word to you. This is a forum to exchange ideas. Not for us to sit there and totally believe what you say. If you don't like it.....well...that is what you have to decide. I think its great that people can exchange ideas. This isn't a forum for us to be students and you the teacher. This is a free forum. Gosh I have to laugh when I think of you thinking I'm a suspicous character. My question to you was an honest one. I'm not going to 'rob' you for your pin. Or maybe...oh wait a minute.....I was thinking maybe....lol sorry I couldn't resist. Lighten up mike. Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!

'There?s another factor to include. Signs miracles and wonders happen when there?s a BODY doing it. Community believing is essential. Seven of the nine manifestations are for blessing OTHERS. If there are no others to bless, or there are very few others, the activity of blessing is diminished when compared to communities of believing believers loving and speaking the Word.' Ok lets look at the nine manifestations.... There are speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, prophecy, discerning of sprits, miracles, healing, faith, word of knowledge and word of wisdom. You say if there is no body to bless that you can't work the seven manifestations? Mike, there is a whole world out there. Are you saying that there is no one out there for healing, for faith? That you can't get the word of knowledge or the word of wisdom? What body are you talking about? The pfal body? You are totally limiting yourself on that with your beliefs. You can't discern of spirits without a body? Now that just doesn't make sense. You don't have to have a community doing it. You sound like you live on a deserted island with no way out of there and no communication with anyone. It doesn't say it in the Word and I find it hard to believe its in the pfal books. So if your the master and I'm not please show it to me. Thanks. Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!

WordWolf, exactly my point. He uses a lot of blanket accusations and then uses the poor me thing like he is being prosecuted. Yes I see the blanket accusations very clearly. I try to stay away from it just because its not in my nature to be accusing but it does stick in my gums and is very distasteful. It is great to be on the same thoughts, isn't it? Could it be? I mean could it actually be that there is a God? And He is actually working with us at the same time? ;)--> Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!

'suppose you asked your question of the Apostle Paul in the middle of his 7 year desert study program? Might his honest, factual answer give you cause to think that hooking up with was a loosing venture?' Could you tell me where me where that is in the Word so I can look it up? I'm aware of Saul going into the desert and there is blinding light and he asks is it you Lord. That was his tranformation to becoming a christian and going by Paul. If that is the case then I would want to know more. I'm hungry for knowing more about God and what I can do for other Christians. As you remember Abraham with the burning bush. He had changed. Seeing the light. There would be a noticable difference. I would want to know more about the change. 'What I was paraphrasing in a highly abbreviated manner above was Paul's second letter to Timothy. It could be slightly re-written to fit John the Baptist. it could fit Most of the prophets and lifestyles they led.' Now, I'm lost. Paraphrasing what? Please explain that. 'There's another factor to include. Signs miracles and wonders happen when there's a BODY doing it. Community believing is essential. Seven of the nine manifestations are for blessing OTHERS. If there are no ohters to bless, or there are very few others, the activity of blessing is diminished when compared to communities of believing believers loving and speaking the Word.' Mike, I thought you were in or had a fellowship? You know there are plenty of people to get started. There are a lot of people hungry for the Word. Hungry for love. Why would it be diminished? Why do you need a community of believing believers? Of course it would be lot more fun but you can still see the Word and bless people by what your learning and seeing in life. I don't know why it has to be turned into suspicion and worry that people are going to put you down when they already are anyways. Life can be fun and I believe that God wants us to enjoy life not make His word into a prison. 'Your question is like someone asking me for my pin number from the dark shadows near my ATM machine.' Hehe. That is a funny analogy. Why would it be like a pin number? Gosh if that is how you feel and you wanted to share that love I would think you would want me to have that pin number. Well, I guess dark shadows wouldn't be so bad...hehe just give me the pin number. As for the name calling I have been reading quite a bit of your posts and found that most of the time you cast the first stone. Sometimes your just plain not nice. That is my honest opinion. Maybe your not explaining yourself well. Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!

I don't really have an ulterior reason. I really would like to know. What does trust have to do about it? If someone is having results about it I would like to know. That is all. I guess you don't know me but I don't play games like that. I may be sarcastic at times but I think I'm nicer than most. Does everyone have to have an ulterior motive? What if you were having those signs, miracles, and wonders? What if you were having those times of excitement of healing and getting people born again? Wouldn't you want to share them and not worry about the motives? I guess I was just thinking about myself and all the people here and if something happened that was just the greatest thing ever I would want people to know about it. I would say to you oh my gosh I saw someone healed today. Or I got someone born again today. Or someone spoke in tongues for the first time today. You see where I'm coming from? I'm asking because I really want to know. If not that is fine. I really don't like what you have to say just because you put others down. But I would like to hear the positives like the signs, miracles and wonders that you do see. I would like to see what happens when you put your beliefs in action. Not just words. We can say anything and they are just words unless we put them in practice. Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!

I think I'm being ignored..... Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!

hey alfakat, you know mike personally? Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!

mike name calling again? Gosh if someone wanted to know something I had to share I wouldn't put them down. Its too bad you had to call him childish. Now why would you want to do that? Not fair mike. Hey would you please answer my question? I would really want to know. Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!

Alfakat, I love it when you get mad...hehe :D--> Now mike, I know that you think we don't know anything but really I know personally I have worked and worked and worked those PFAL books till I was blue in the face. I was not a worshipper of vpw. All that you explain is not new to me. Nor to most of us here. We choose not to make it confining. You have not answered my question and I have asked you a couple of times all ready. Could you please tell us if you are seeing those signs and miracles that we all saw in the 70's? I for one would love to hear of it. And your fellowship? Is the love being manifested like it was in the 70's? I'm not talking about yelling and getting in someone's face. I'm talking about working with people and seeing their lives change. Getting people born again and watching them grow? I don't think I'm asking so much. I would want to shout it off the rooftops if that was happening!!! So please I'm anxiously awaiting your answer because I would really want to hear of it. Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!

Mark, I understand how you feel. This is getting rather tiring. Hope to see you on other threads. I have enjoyed reading your posts. Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!

Mike, kidding aside I asked you a question that I truly want to know...are you seeing the miracles that was going on in the 70's? If you are would you care to share them with us? I would really like to know. Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!

Oh my gosh....I joined a splinter group?.... but...but...hey toto hold on I am going to click my heels....there is no place like home....there is no place like home.....oh my gosh!!!...pfal...pfal....thats not home!!! ....I want to go home..where to now?.... :P--> Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!

Sorry about the double post and also the spelling. I guess I'm just human and make mistakes. How novel is that? I know its a silly question but honestly there are other things also that we deal with in life and so do we tell them or not or how do we deal with it. Like do you tell someone their fly is open or just let it go? I have had it happen to me both ways. My blouse I wore to work one day had a button that came undone and I went through the whole day and no one told me until I had gotten home and went to change clothes. When I was working as a manager at a convenient store a guy had his fly open and I told him. It was rather embarrassing for him but hey would he have rather gone through the day exposed? You see booger hanging out of the nose is silly but it happened to me. I was visiting my uncle in California. When he met me off the amtrak he kissed my cheek and just before he did I noticed he had a booger hanging out of his nose. I didn't say anything and it repulsed me. Now whenever I speak to him on the phone or think of him I can't get it out of my mind. So should I have told him or not? Now I wish I would have. Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!

Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!

Just in case you say I didn't use romans chapter 7 here it is: 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Here is chaper 8 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please look at all the scriptures around this and you will find that you don't have to live the dark side, the carnal side, the five senses side as you sometimes put it. We have been delivered from this by Jesus Christ. We do not live the law anymore. We don't have to live on the 'dark' side. I have freedom and we have grace. Which means that if it comes to mind to do something we decide if we are going to do it or not. It is our freedom. Vpw chose by his own free will to go his dark side. Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!

'Even still I was surprised at how difficult it was at HQ. The mind games and politics there was very thick, even in the 76-78 period I was there. I saw how so many people would get into head trips about the great importance of THEIR spiritual project over all others. I too was influenced by these spirits at times there. It was thick.' Where do you think the politics were coming from? You would think that if vpw was truly the mog that he would have put a stop to it. Instead he loved the worship everyone gave him. He promoted it, mike!!!! 'I DID see his dark side, but was not too surprised because I John 1 gurantees its there and Romans 7 says Paul had a dark side too. ok lets read it: 1john 1-10 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)--> 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. ----------------------------- Since you were using Romans 7 I decided I would copy romans 6 to really understand what Romans 7 is talking about. 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You see mike, we don't have to live in the darkness. We don't have to use darkness to get rid of it. We use the Love that God has given us to move the Word. Not the darkness. You say you vpw had a dark side to him and that we all do (not exact words). It says that we don't have to live that way. If within my mind it tells me to beat someone up and I do it. I can't say oh that was my dark side. There is absolutely no excuse for it. Yes our minds are conflicting but its what we do with our minds that is important. Vpw actually did it. He had it in his mind and used his power to hurt people. This was not from God. Please don't tell me it was his dark side. That is a poor excuse. I guess I could go on and on but really the scripture speaks for itself, doesn't it? Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!! [This message was edited by vickles on June 15, 2003 at 7:25.]