Bramble

I'm sure they are people in different groups--the ones who dislike Rev Lovelaces's sign, and those that dislike MM. Is that a surprise?

I see polarization everywhere I go. Liberals/Conservatives, religious right/ religious left

Then there are some people who don't have much use for either, Lovelace or MM.

And some people believe no one's religious beliefs or sacred texts should be trashed.

It's a big wide world.

Just because someone thinks Lovelace is wacked doesn't mean they approve of MM.

Honestly, I thought MM's career was in a downslide. Haven't heard of him for ages until you brought him up.

The 'Man of God stuff' filtered down into the fellowships, too. I remember a reproof session with our Martindalized HFC, who emphasised that he was 'our spiritual overseer' and we had to take that seriously, blah de blah de blah. Basically, he was the minimog.

Perhaps LCM had people say it for him. I remember a 17 corps friend telling me how this was Craig's ministry now,etc. In an awestruck voice, too.

I was at the HQ Advanced Class in '98. Sheesh, LCM was treated like God among us. Every word was a jewel. When he went through the lost and found box during breakfast before we left, people adored him, like we were sitting in a slice of heaven. Scary.

I figure the Marilyn Manson/goth scene is trying to be shocking and in your face. They want folks to get disturbed! That's kinda the point.

'People in the fellowship were not to pray for things they were not asked to....'

This was happening earlier than 2001 or so in our area. Maybe '97?

This is what I remember about prayer in fellowship. We once(80s, early 90s) got together and prayed for personal needs to be met, even ministered to each other, but that ended unless the HFC got 'rev' to have people pray for 'what was on their hearts.' If you wanted ministered to you talked to the HFC after fellowship.

People would have huge needs--health, finances, whatever, right in the fellowship, but those went unprayed for--we always prayed for LCM and HQ, though.

Of course, later in the nineties it was actually better if you had a huge need that didn't get prayed for--because having a huge need meant you were weak shi+ and that would bring nothing good.

I remember that we didn't pray or even tell our fellowship that one of our kids had pnuemonia. At the time, I as pretty upset and did NOT want to hear the reproof. I figured it would hurt my believing for the kid to get well.

How insane that all was!

He changed his tune.

http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/bpnews.asp?ID=20858

I was a Democrat but didn't mention it. I secretly voted democrat whenever I felt like it, just kept quiet. TWI folk just assumed everyone voted Republican.

Now that we're out, hubby thinks it is funny--his dad was always Republican, his mom was always Democrat, and it seems we follow in their footsteps.

I don't think my family was disfunctional, but I think I was pretty disfunctional when I got into TWI.

My parent were loving. They were pretty strict with me as a teen. I was a good kid, obedient.etc.

But then I went to a party college, several hours away.

I was a risk taker in my younger days and in my college years I was not very wise. I did lots of crazy things without much thought. Things I hope my kids never do!

For whatever reasons, I think I was more immature than alot of my peers. I didn't have to study very hard to get decent grades, which didn't help. My parents kept me on a strict budget in college, but I soon found waitress jobs for quick cash. Most of my friends had money and were just as wild as I was. We followed a local band around. We called ourselves the Road Dogs, because we traveled so much after this band. Wild times ensued.

Not too long before I got involved in TWI my boyfriend of several years and I broke up, it was a huge deal, we had tons of mutual friends etc. Everyone, including me, thought we would get married.

Just a couple months before my first Twig, ex boyfriend's younger brother, Shaun, a close friend, died in a car crash. He'd been a fun, handsome, kind hearted, life of the party kind of guy. The (Roman Catholic) wake and funeral were just awful. Many friends (and the ex of course )were there.

Afterward I felt numb for a long time, but I didn't have a clue I was depressed.Partying etc wasn't fun. We were all graduating from college, and the best job offer I got seemed like a strait jacket(teaching kindergarten in a tiny town in eastern Montana.)

So the wows I met that spring found someone unhappy with their life, grieving, in a transition. I was ready for the abundant life.

Just for the record, Oberon Zell isn't Wiccan. He's pagan.

But I have seen the same attitude--It's not my tribe, my book, my god, so doesn't involve me, alot.

Abigail and Dan,

Thanks for the info--I found it very interesting, especially the view of ritual.

I've enjoyed those books--Heinlein and Bradley!

Abigail-- I had no idea there is no original sin in Judaism! Then why do they need a Messiah, savior?(Sorry--I know this is off topic)

The writer of that article is Oberon Zell, who founded the Church of All Worlds(based on Robert Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land.) He apparantly has written serious articles and books but they would be tricky to hunt down(well, there's probably a CoAW website.) He was a BNP(big name pagan) in the sixties and seventies, and is considered a pioneer in neo pagan circles. Not Wiccan, which is more where I land.

That's all I grok.

I warned you, could be offensive. And that house--pretty wild. Makes my dried flowera and candles look pretty Martha Stewart.

I've heard serious references to being the 'other people' and Yahweh being 'a tribal god, not my tribe' type of thing before. There could be a more serious book or article about that. I'll ask at a big pagan site, the one stop pagan site for crazy questions.

The serpent is also seen associated with ancient goddesses, and is seen as symbol of rejuvenation, rebirth and wholeness in many Pagan/Wiccan circles.

Many ancient mythologies have a serpent. Tiamat, the ancient chaos/creatrix, was serpentine. Snakes were sacred to the Greek physician god Aesculius, and the snake staff is the symbol for medicine.

Edited to add the url to a popular(to Pagan/Wiccans), humorous (but probably offensive to Christians )retelling of the Garden of Eden story:

http://www.paganlibrary.com/fundies/other_people.php

'I'm not lurking. I'm standing about. It's a whole different vibe.' --Spike (Buffy the Vampire Slayer)

quote:

"Seems to me that when the emphasis went from teaching children at that age the basics of acceptable school behavior... raise your hand when you want to talk, don't talk when others are, share, play nicely, say please and thank you and put things back where you found them to... "

My preschool is not all that academic. We are somewhat considered dinosaurs in the community because we have free choice and free play centers. We do teach social skills through a play environment. We plan creative and cognitive activities, dramatic play with props etc, music, movement. It is similar to what many baby boomers remember in kindergarten.

Move up a year to our prekindergarten class--lots of self help skills--zipping tying, listening, writing name, cutting,following directions--lots more stuctured, ABCs and 123S.

When kids in our area get to kindergarten they will be in a class--if they're lucky--with 20 five year olds and one teacher. They could be in a class with 24 or 25 kids. No asst teacher.

By the end of kindergarten they are expected to know phonics and be reading three and four letter words, know what a consonant blend is, do basic math facts to 10. With those type of expectations, there is little finger painting or songs and dancing. It's paper, pencil, worksheets.

I doubt that the teachers now days care that much about self esteem(I think that concern was big two decades ago. The 80s were pretty easy going)--they are thinking--is so and so up to standards? Is my class going to meet expectations? How do I compare to state and national test scores? So if the kid has absolutely no self esteem, but is mananging to meet academic standards and isn't disruptive, no prob.

Any child that can't or won't meet the standards is flagged. Teacher is covering her a$$, so to speak, because every educator knows there will be children who will not be able to meet the standards, due to a myriad of reasons.

Child won't be able to 'catch up' in first grade, either,they're already behind. Summer school may help, or they'll go through the process and see the resource room teacher(which opts the child out of the classroom average here.)

Oh! And if you have a really bright child--most schools will not recommend the child be tested for gifted and talented, which is often funded through special ed funds. You, the parent, need to push it. Why? Because it is better for the classroom average to have those really bright kids taking the tests with their peers(even though their peers are reading at 4th grade level and bright child is reading at 11th grade level.) It is also cheaper if child can manage in a regular classroom. Sheesh, if they're in the gifted and talented program they might be bussed out of that school to be in the special classes. Think of how that affects the class test scores!

I work in a private preschool/daycare with 3 and 4 year olds. I'm the lead teacher (I am the one the parents deal with if there is a problem.) I work with (am the boss of)an asst. teacher and several teachers aids.

We have expelled several children,usually for nonpayment. If we have a child with behavior problems( we flag physical aggression for the most part) we contact the parent, set up a meeting, do a daily behavior log, more meetings etc. Most children's behavior does improve, and while they might be bratty at home, they usually have acceptable behavior at preschool.

We discontinued care for one child who was very aggressive, physically violent(choked, hit, kicked and bit other children with little or no provocation, also hit and kicked staff,) and had several tantrums a day. We had the county child development experts called in( with parental permission) testing etc. Their recommendation for him was to A) put him in a smaller classroom with less children(we didn't have a smaller classroom) or B) assign a staff member to shadow him all day long.

Staffing levels are 10 children to 1 adult in this age group in our state. If my asst. teacher was to shadow one child all day, that would leave the other teacher to care for 19 kids during peak hours, which is also our preschool program time.

We do not receive state or federal aid, though we occasionally get a grant from a private charity. We had asst teachers request to NOT be in the preschool(one was pregnant and one was elderly. I worried about the elderly lady getting knocked down, this child had knocked down another, sturdier, staff member.)

Parents of other children were also very concerned. Our afternoon high school/college aids were not able to deal with him at all, so that was also an issue.

I do not know if he had ADD or another problem. We've had plenty of kids with ADD through the years, with out any big ruckus. Ours is a developmental preschool, play to learn environment, not paper/ pencil academics.

This child was angry and physically violent. A big four year old CAN hurt staff members, especially our elderly assts that do breaks.

We chose not to hire a teacher to shadow him. We felt that we were not set up, qualified, or had the financial support to care for a child who has a severe behavior problem(regular methods hadn't made a difference with this child's behavior).

What would you do?

We discontinued care with the recomendation that the child go to a pulic school preschool or the County preschool with all the experts, special educators etc. Even Headstart has resources a private school like ours doesn't have. They can get funding to hire extra teachers etc as needed.

quote:

Many who leave do so because they are tired of being manipulated and micromananged, not because they have any serious problems with the doctrine.

I don't know if that is true of all areas. When I was in during the nineties I did not distinguish between PFAL/TWI1 doctrine and Present Truth. It was All doctrine.

In our area they had Bible verses to backup every bit of micromanagement.

I didn't begin to distinguish the two (PFAL doctrine and PResent Truth) until I came here, and even now it is all blurred together. The doctrines of the nineties used doctrine from earlier teachings etc.

I did want to add-- I wasn't boasting when I said I don't need counseling. I am just not in pain or depression. My pain and depression pretty much faded away after we finally left TWI.

If you are in lots of pain, or are depressed, or miserable, then please seek help! Everyone is different and what some brush off others are terrorized about. There is help out there. Please don't be afraid to seek it because of what TWI thought of it, or because someone else doesn't need it.

I left TWI five years ago. I've only met LCM twice, he was not the primary reason I left. I didn't even know about the sex predator stuff until we had been out for months.

We left because of the witch hunts, authoritarianism, micromanagement and stress of trying to live the TWI2 lifestyle(trickled down LCM.)Our lifestyle was ugly and unhealthy.

I don't need counseling, am not addicted to or believe Way doctrine. I will never desire to return to TWI or a group similar to it. I am comfortable with my spiritual journey.

If VPW had lived, if LCM and TWI2 had never existed, I don't have any idea what I might be doing or believing.

As for LCM being gone, current leadership in TWI adored him and copied his mannerisms, attitudes and style. Some even copied his hobbies, hairstyle and goattee. These would not be people I would trust under any circumstances.

Chas--check pt.

If I remember correctly, the Way doctrine on bitterness viewed it as a growing thing that consumed your life, some type of root, evil thing(no I don't have my notes. I purged.) It was a big Twitwo teaching, but not as big as Present Truth. Probably a conduit for devil spirits,too. Wasn't any unrenewed thought a conduit, TWITwoers?

So being the receiver of some evil and being bitter about it, was actually worse than dishing out the evil with no remorse(condemnation.)Handy doctrine for leadershi+.

So all us bitter people are supposed to have just awful lives. It's similar to the 'greasespot by midnight' belief.

Don't know about you all, but my life is much, much nicer now, in all types of catagories, like income, housing, stress levels. I even weight less.

Is bitter like 'still angry and see no need to forgive'?

Sometimes I think those that call folk bitter have a different view of those they call bitter--like the bitter person is obsessed with former leadershi+ and thinks, breathes, stalks, fills their day, with thoughts and actions about their former association.

I work full time and have three kids of my own. My family is my first priority and takes the bulk of my time and effort. I work because my family needs the income. If my family had a different need, then my life would reflect that.

I am happy to help others when and where I can, within the limits of time and money that I have. But I see helping as a hands on type of activity rather than filling someone with my words and opinions--like babysitting for free, or voluntering at the local food bank now and then. I am also very involved in PTO at school and fund raising activities, which benefit my kids and other kids, too. I have little 'me' time, but then how many moms do?

When we were in TWI my life was stretched to the max and I was under a great deal of stress trying to keep up with all the hoop jumping. There was no time or energy to think much beyond the next days scramble to keep everything together. There were no people to help--they were all doing the same frantic rush.

Just keeping my kids well, happy etc was a challenege and not supported by our lifestyle in TWI. Kids needs were just an annoyance in the important stuff of doing the "Word." In fact, as far as I could tell, kids were just an annoying time and money sucker, best if need free(yeah!) and silent to the point of not being there.

What TWI would consider 'help' as in getting people into fellowships and classes, witnessing,teaching, ABS etc, is of no value to me now.

I just imagine their blood pressure rising. Veins popping in their foreheads. Tight tendons in their necks. Hands crushing the mouse.

Anger is not a good motivator of others here.

Unlike in TWI where it was the magic that made it all happen!

It must be frustrating for former TWI leadership to come here and reprove GSC. Back in the day, they were able to threaten and MAKE people buckle. Here, they can even bring out the big gun(Bible)and still no one does what they think should be done.

Heehee