Bramble

Quote 'It would be interesting to know how many people in a current Way fellowship are seeking psychological or medical help outside the walls of Zion.'

In the last fellowship I went to(left in 99) it would behoove you to keep your mouth SHUT about any problems. If you didn't look perfect, then you were trouble to be weeded out.

And mental problems--weren't retemories and renewing the mind supposed to solve all that?

andreatheflorist---heehee, a sa mom who gave birth to large, full term twins, I hear ya. beached whale says it all!

In my area there was a type of 'honeymoon' period in the early ninties, after POP, during the Galations tapes era. It didn't last long, and people began to drop like flies after that.

One night I had to run an errand late at night, and then decided to go to Wendys drive through for a frosty(naughty, blowing the diet.)

I saw a teen age girl walk by, crying, and I thought it was pretty dangerous for a young girl to be out walking alone so late at night, so I asked her if she needed help. Ended up taking her home.

She turned out to be only twelve years old--just looked older, dressed older, heavy makeup. She'd gotten in with a crowd of college kids, and ended up 200 miles from home with no money--plus the college kids had found out how young she was and were scared of facing legal consequences if her parents pressed charges, so they dumped her on the side of the road.

She called her mom, then stayed at my house until they could drive up and get her. She showered, ate, slept on my couch, and went home wearing some of my old sweats. . . I could tell her mom loved her,and the girl was so scared.

Now I have a tall curvy twelve year old of my own, yikes! If she ever did anything crazy like that, I sure would hope some kind person would help her out.

But I wouldn't invite someone into my home if I thought they might endanger my family.

Many folks, Goey? I see only a handful of non Christian posters on this whole site. Oakspear, Abigail, George Aar, Lindyhopper, myself. . . maybe a couple more, but not even a dozen. Aren't there a couple hundred posters on this site?

This is a Bramble ramble:

Abigail Quote:

I have no desire to align myself with any religion which teaches exclusion...

***

This was a big part of what I found attractive with the beliefs I now hold. In all the confusing mishmash of beliefs, how could a loving God really expect people to find that one exclusive church or religion or doctrine, in the muddle of all the others? Really, none of them stood out as obviously the one and perfect way, to me.

Other people don't have to be wrong, in order to make your choice right for you--they are just different.

My understanding of love changed alot after I had children,too. Obeying commandments--while important to the Christain God,wasn't all that important to me. The disobedience of children did not change my feelings toward my kids at all, I loved them no matter what.

Also I had the example of my parents (who left the church when I was a teen.) I have a mentally ill sibling--very ill,unable to live a normal life even with meds, and I saw how they treated him, doing everything they could to give him some quality of life, which isn't easy to do. Love that demands began to look manipulative, to me.

Back in my TWI 'golden years' there was the teaching on auxano--growth from with in without compulsion. It was like a beautiful fairy tale, or Utopia or something-- lovely. Never saw it or experienced it, though. what I have now, I would call auxano, though most Christans would deny me that

Way Friends = spies

Hmmm, some of the Household Fellowhsip Coordinators were pretty disturbing people. They are gone, too? Or just following new orders?

quote:

They're opening their financial books to the public?

Information for innies--regular churches have annual financial meetings, with full financial information. They give the congregants everything, on paper!

They also have voting--gasp! Like--do we want to refurnish the nursery or get new choir robes--vote now! And people discuss it--not just the leadership!

Gosh,I'm so astonished--I actually agree with Zixar on something. I had to post.

Zixar quote:

'I suppose it depends on how much qualifies as "very different". Despite many doctrinal differences, Christianity under TWI isn't radically different than it is under Catholicism or any other Protestant sect.'

That's pretty much the conclusion I came to--it just motivated me in a different way.

Also the exclusive thing, the jealous god--not a selling point for me.

Oh, and another thing!(I forgot this on my previous post.)

The deathbed situation-- to change at the last minute like that. Seems to me a person who did that might be motivated more by fear of the afterlife(Hell, etc) or by guilt at a wrong doing, than by love or loyalty to God and Christ.

Fear was a huge motivator in my experience in TWI. Not a motivator at all in my new beliefs.

Gosh, Zixar, I was being honest before you posted your big renounce thingy (which kinda reminds me of the Inquisition, btw, only without the torture. Well, maybe a little torture.)

I was just trying to clarify, since it seemed like you didn't get what I believed from my previous posts.

As far as death bed situations, I was in the er with a heart thing a couple years ago. The whole 'turn back to Christianity thing' didn't even cross my mind. Mostly I was hoping those scruffy young doctors in ER knew what they were doing.

To clarify:(-->sorry)

Is it possible for a person to leave Christianity without that person, who is leaving, to have some personal flaw, in your Christian view?

I understand that everyone has flaws--but the sense I am getting from you and others, is that anyone who leaves your faith must have a flaw, weakness, fault, did something wrong, never believed anyway etc.. cuz only Christians are ok?

I can't help you understand, I wrote my journey as honestly as I know how.

Perhaps it is a black or white world view vs shades of grey world view

disconnect.

I'm glad your daughter is well, I don't know why she got sick, either, but I suspect there are elements of chaos in the world. Things that happen with no explanation. Perhaps my change of faith fits in there, hmm?

And thanks, but I don't need help. I didn't enter this thread looking to be fixed and return to Christianity. Def asked.

Sorry def59, but it seems to me your thread is just devolving into one of those we, the Christains are right, you, the unbelievers are WRONG. So I see no more purpose in playing.

I can go back and read the last thread that went there.

Zix - renounce and Reject!

Sky - personal inventory (personal flaws),bittereness and anger

def59- bitterness, anger,if you ever truly believed in the first place

What did you say when you started this thread?

Oh yeah. Quote: I promise not to scoff or mock your responses.

You've lost my trust in your ability to do that.

Later

quote:

'It just it always was my view that doctrinally they kinda wanted to appeal to the flesh by saying a lot of stuff was ok when it really wasnt.'

Like what? The area I was in wasn't big on premarital sex being okay, or drinking etc.

I was a gullible college kid who had never read the Bible before. I sure didn't know doctrine--I was a el ed with a drama minor--no theology. I though PFAL was God's truth, and everything was great--I married one of the wows who got me in the Word.

qoute:

'The other thing is bitterness. Are you folks sure your not just angry at God because he wouldnt do what you thought he oughta? Personally, I kinda think you are. (Dont wack at me to hard I cant say it any nicer.)'

As far as being angry with god etc, that is the easy answer for you, isn't it? Keeps it all nice and tidy--those bitter, angry unbelievers. I can certainly dismiss them. Rather than listening to things the folk here have actually tried to express?

Abigail, for instance, has not come off bitter or angry at all, in my opinion. She sounds very reasonable about her beliefs.

Who exactly has come off bitter and angry?

Or are we bitter and angry because we are no longer Christians?

Is it even possible to leave Christianity with out having some major personal flaw?

Renounce Jesus? Reject Christianity?

It seems to me that you are trying to put me in a position of enmity against your faith and your God. I feel no such enmity in my life. I'm just not Christian anymore..

I don't worship your God or follow your Holy Scriptures--is that rejecting and renouncing? Or do I have to be dramatic and declare those exact phrases to satisfy you?

I do not look down upon Christians, or consider it a false faith, or consider them the enemy-- though there are times where I am careful to keep my beliefs to myself in order to avoid trouble.

I think all faiths are valid paths--unless they harm and destroy people. This is a common belief among Wiccan/pagans, quite different from what we were taught in TWI, or in my childhood RC church.

Early in this thread, someone used the word 'disconnect.' My leaving the Christian faith had far more to do with a 'disconnect' with Christianity, and the Christian God then some type of angry hate filled tantrum--plus I found something I do connect to, so I'm not agnostic or athiest.

Do you believe Christians should go around denouncing and rejecting other's religions?

'I just want to help you' = I'm trying to look good and keep the branch coordinator off my back, so I'm so GLAD I found this approved area of weakness in your life, because working with you and spreading your weakness all over the branch will make me look great!!!

Slothfulness = you don't have the money for the____, or have to work

Hardheartedness = you would rather spend Thanksgiving with your family than go to the ___.

Communication in the household = Quickly gather the remnant to trash and M&A their dear friends who left TWI today.

Y2K= the end of the world as we know it.

Decent and in Order = it must look as impersonal as a motel room.

Children's fellowship = no longer important, cuz we have spoons.

'Therefore my outcome is certainly far different than yours.'

Yes, I am aware that others have made very different choices than I have made. I'm good with that. I am not preaching, or trying to imply that other's choices are not as good as mine. My choice was for me.I was just trying to convey the journey, for this thread.

On the savior thing--why would a father sacrifice a son for his other children? In the family I was raised in, my dad would have sacrificed himself,not one of my brothers, or my mom would have done it. My husband or I would give ourselves for our kids.

That,to me, is a good case for the trinity. To sacrifice yourself is one thing, to sacrifice another is a whole nuther thing.

My decision to leave the Christain faith was not a particularly scholarly one, and it took place over several years, with different events,experiences, and books etc. all mismashed together.

Towards the end of our time in TWI, an article came out in the Way magazine about Her story--the dangers of feminist spirituality. I was also very unhappy at that time and desired to rebel from the legalism and unloving manipulation we constantly faced. I had a library card (oo, dangerous!) and checked out one of the reference books refered to in the article--Women who Run with Wolves. It actually made more sense than the stuff we were into. But I renewed my mind.

After leaving TWI I tried an off shoot, which was controling, at least the twig we went to--ran from that. Bounced around several churches.

I began to read other books on feminist spirituality, because I found it intriguing. While I wasn't ready to chuck my belief system, deep inside I wished life was more like the goddess worship, feminist spirituality I had started to read about.

Hubby and I could not relax in a church atmosphere--there was still the belief that we NEEDED to obey leadership. There always seemed to be some type of fear motivation--fear of sin, fear of reproof(in TWI) fear of Hell(in churches)fear of devil spirits.

Also, the US vs Them attitude was every where--heard liberals moaning about evengelicals, Methodists dissing Catholics. Sheesh. It was like an epidemic, and I didn't want it.

We moved, and we were in the country. One night I sat on the deck, and watched the full moon over the mountains. It was a spiritual experience, and I knew it was feminine. One of those Unverifiable personal gnossis things that sound stupid to other people.

At this point I was still in the mainstream church--the most liberal one in my area--but I began to read on the internet about Wicca, which I had run across in the goddess spirituality stuff, (also on Buffy, heehee)

Around that same time at the church we went to I was asked to take over a youth group. That is when I really faced it--there was very little Christian doctrine I believed, or wanted to teach my kids. Original sin, salvation, redemption, the sin nature of man...I could not teach it.

I could leave--I could be free, have a connection to the Goddess. . . so in a short space of time, that is what I did.

I don't believe in one true way for everybody. If your Christian or druid faith works for you, that is fine with me. I will not try to change you, and I don't respect others who try to change me, even though I know where they are coming from.

Acceptance of other's beliefs as being valid for them is one of the things I like most about my new faith,along with no fear motivation,and no need to obey some authority in order to please God. I am part of my god/goddess, not some sinful being who had to be redeemed by a blood sacrifice. It is more like family.

Why not Christianity? Because I found something that works better for me.

'Anyone here ever have to go "Confrontation Witnessing"?'

Yup, we 'confronted the world with the Word' just like way disciples. And we only went to expensive apartment complexes and new suburban neighborhoods.

It was '98, just before I left TWi. I was at the Advanced class at HQ that year, Craig's class.

Mike Martin sang it, it was lively and well received.

Quote from Galen:

May I ask, during what period of TWI did you learn to treat others in this manner?

***

I was taught this during my wow year in '83, by our local corps leadership, involving a new grad who had a parent dying of cancer in a small town in the state. We were to council this grad to remain with us, where the Word was 'hot,' and not to return home to take care of parent.

The parent would either believe to live or die, corps said--no emotion, no concern.

The unbeliever parent--a Christian trinitarian church attendee, wasn't important, I now see.

I wasn't very complicated when I got into the Way--I was a college kid, not all that grown up. I wanted to know The Truth,and I wanted what alot of girls that age want, a nice husband, future with kids, etc. And I got it--I married one of the WOWs who got me in the class, had a bunch of kids.

Years later, I had a HFC who seemed to be doing his darndest to split us up. There were Years of confusion and doubt--doubting myself, because, why would a believer, man of God etc, be trying to wreck my marriage? Why would anyone dislike me so--especially a leader? I'd never had this problem before--I was generally well liked, I thought. Had I changed? Was I really so hateful, slothfull, hardhearted?? What about what was best for our little kids? Why couldn't my husband see what was happening?? I must be wrong!!!

I guess because it was deceptive, and sneaky and so ugly it was hard for an idealistic guy like my hubby to believe. Plus the HFC was a buddy of his from waaay back.

Finally, we left. I no longer believe in The Truth, though I believe in some truths that work for me. I still have my marriage, far more stress free now, the kids are growing up. . . I guess I now have what I wanted, which was family.

We have AOL 9.0. I like it--except when I get cut off, which isn't that often.

I like the kids accounts. All mine have their own accounts. I can monitor them if I feel I need to, they can't surf into adult sites, they don't get porn spam in their junk mail.

Yes, I like Aol radio--they don't do commercials. My yahoo radio streams for awhile, and then puts out the commercials.