Raf

I can and I will, but honestly, it has passed the point of being annoying that I constantly have to clarify something that was not unclear in the first place, and that the subject has now become about my being "dead set" on looking at something from a logical perspective. So here's a different way to ask the same damn question (sorry, but we passed being annoying the third or fourth time I was accused of being stubborn about how I'm handling this topic). Looking at the Bible chronologically in the order that the stories take place, what is the first inkling that we have that "salvation" or "eternal life" is even a thing? And, following up on that logically, at what point is it clear, Biblically AND chronologically, that there is a "gospel" of salvation that is clearly articulated? Best answers we have come up with until this point is that there's a reference in Job to the expectation of a life after this one, and there are Psalms that seem to indicate (to my satisfaction at least) that "trusting in the Lord" is what "entitles" (I'm struggling to come up with a better word) a person to eternal life. I know you can look at certain verses in the New Testament that seem to indicate the people in Genesis knew certain things, but there is nothing in Genesis to reflect that, and the people who lived at the time of Genesis did not have access to the New Testament. Yeah, you can say "God said it, that settles it," but from a historical perspective, that doesn't fly. Answer the question the way a Jew would: They don't accept the New Testament as authoritative the same way Christians don't accept the book of Mormon's claims about Jesus as authoritative or the Koran's claims about Abraham as authoritative. Where is the gospel of salvation in the OT? If we're going to ask how it's changed, we have to approach it honestly, and that means approaching it chronologically. I'm willing to assume Adam knew the substance of Genesis 3:15 even though he wasn't there to hear that promise (or, at least, there's no indication he was). To deny he knew it would be nitpicking. But Genesis 3:15 says nothing about restoring man to immortality. That promise comes later (at the latest by Job). I'm willing to accept that the people of Genesis had the same expectation as Job even though there's no connection between the stories, again because it fits chronologically and I'm looking at this chronologically. And I say this knowing that Genesis-Deuteronomy were written centuries after the events described and not knowing at all when Job was written. To avoid that argument, I'm taking the timing of the stories AS THEY OCCUR at face value. What I'm not willing to do is accept that the people of Genesis knew what was written in Hebrews some thousand or two years later. That's ret-conning. It may satisfy the question from a theological standpoint, but it doesn't hold water chronologically. This should not be difficult. And it's not about ME or my being "dead set" against anything. It's about approaching the material on its own merits and not allowing ANY preconceived notions to take precedence. Is there a gospel of salvation in Genesis? Where? Exodus? Where? Leviticus? Where? Joshua, Judges, Ruth? Where do we first see the people of God actually believing in something that we can call "salvation" according to how we define it today?

I'll report the glitch. Whenever you respond to a thread, the post you just entered shows up (TO YOU ONLY) as the second post on the page. Go the home page or some other page and click on the thread again, and your new comment will pop up in the right place. In the meantime, Tom Hanks is correct. Your move.

Jerry Maren is the munchkin who handed the lollipop to Dorothy. He's also the last surviving member of the cast

That's why I added that "Under the Rainbow" is a big fat clue to another movie he's in. Believe me, you know him, you've quoted him, you've probably tried to imitate him more than once.

Ok. So. Jerry Maren. (And "Under the Rainbow" is a big fat clue to another famous movie Jerry Maren was in).

"That thing doesn't obey the laws of physics at all!"

Sorry. I'm an 80s kid. "He said 'In winter 1963, it felt like the world would freeze, with John F. Kennedy and the Beatles.'"

Public Enemy ?

Ok then. Tough Guys it is. Billy Barty Under the Rainbow Jerry Maren

I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. You can't establish a message of salvation that would be known to the people living at the time of Genesis by using documents that were not written until a couple thousand years later. The people living at the time of Genesis could not possibly have known that. There's nothing complicated about that. At all. Even a little. If you want to know what the people of a certain time knew or believed about salvation, then you have to limit yourself to the information that was available to them at that time. You don't get to say, "Well, the apostle Paul ssid Abraham liked Mallomars" and expect it to just be taken for granted as true unless there's something in Genesis yo indicate that, yeah, Abe liked Mallomars. Relying on the New Testament to tell what the believers of the Old Testament knew and believed is retconning. It is intellectually dishonest. To the best of my knoeledge, you can go through the first five books of the Bible, at least, without the slightest indication that there was any such thing as a gospel of salvation. So if you really want to know if it has changed, the most Biblically forthright answer from where I sit is: yeah, it's changed. At first there was none.

Kevin Costner No Way Out Gene Hackman

I really don't get why this is so complicated.

And apparently by a couple other dudes too.

"Hazy Shade of Winter" by The Bangles.

Name the actor: Paul Edgecombe Chuck Noland Andrew Beckett

The Color Purple Whoopi Goldberg Ghost

Its one thing to go backward to look for the progression. It's another to go backward and wedge knowledge into the past based on the future. My opinion.

Ethan Allen. Falcon, Hawke.

G-D it, Daddy!

WordWolf, wrong Allen. Ethan Hawke

He is a clever hint to the actuse answer

"I'm trying to speak but no matter what I do, I just can't seem to make any sound. And then [title]. Oh it must have been while you were kissing me."

Allen Falcon!

I didn't know that was Eric Clapner!

Don't know the artist. Educated guess on the title. After Midnight