Raf
-
Posts
16,684 -
Joined
-
Last visited
-
Days Won
149
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Calendar
Gallery
Posts posted by Raf
-
-
Yanks and Braves in the playoffs.
Somewhere, Tom Hanks is meeting the president and Bill Murray is trying to stop his alarm clock from playing "I Got You Babe."
-
quote:
Originally posted by Sunesis:Oldies and Wordwolf, we probably know each other.
I was in Manhattan.
If you know WordWolf, there's a pretty durned good chance you know me.
Johnyouare:
Happy anniversary! 10 Years of Freedom! What are you going to do next?
-
Overall, the dialogue on this board is some of the best I've seen in a long time.
-
-
From ROR in the JAL thread (hey, seeing as the VP is such a VIP, shouldn't we put the PC on the QT? 'Cause if it leaks to the VC, he could end up MIA and then we'd all be put on KP).
Anyway, the quote is...
quote:
It is vital for exwayfers to realize that we all did not have the same EXACT experience, and not to dismiss every experience that was not similar to our own.
-
quote:
It is vital for exwayfers to realize that we all did not have the same EXACT experience, and not to dismiss every experience that was not similar to our own.
I nominate this for a 2004 Greasespot Gem Award.
-
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Lortz:"Rapture" is a word.
People use it when they talk about the Bible.
Therefore, "rapture" is a biblical word.
If you're going to insist on this kind of absurd oversimplification (aka utter misrepresentation) of our arguments, then it's really not worth pursuing.
You tell us to get a clue, yet in a single post you insist tht the word "rapture" is essential to Darby's misrepresentation while simultaneously showing that Wierwille carried on the same misrepresentation without the word rapture.
I say we stop discussing the ascension of Christ or the advent of Christ, since those are clearly not Biblical words.
-
I guess Steve and I figured if JAL won't debate here, dangit, we will!
-
Heh heh heh.
Steve, can I point this out to you in a few different words, maybe you can see my point:
You said: "The simple truth is, if we want to know what's actually written in the Bible, the word "rapture" is NOT "equally accurate". Darby swiped it from the Irvingites in order to ARTIFICIALLY distinguish the resurrection and gathering of I Thessalonians 4 from the resurrection and gathering of Ezekiel 37. If he had not done so, his whole system of dispensations would have failed because it is an error, biblically."
But you also said: "Wierwille always used the biblically correct term for the event, 'the gathering together', even though he misplaced it before the tribulation, and mistakenly restricted it to the "Church" as opposed to the believing remnant of Israel with believing Gentiles grafted in on the same basis, by grace through faith."
Now, can you agree with me that the terminology used does not free one from the probability of error (or accuracy, for that matter). Darby doesn't get away with his eschatology by using the word "rapture," because Wierwille has the exact same eschatology without using the word "rapture." You're giving way too much weight to the significance of this word as it relates to Darby's "error" (assuming you're right and he's wrong here). In doing so, might I suggest you're going too far: insisting that the word itself is not Biblical when its origin is clearly from the Latin Vulgate, which is a Bible. A little too far? A little? Wee bit? Nit?
-
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Lortz:Raf - I realize you are stating other peoples positions, and not necessarily arguing FOR those things.
Quite the opposite: I am not stating ANYONE's position regarding dispensationalism or any other topic.
quote:
For instance, "Because the 19th century neologism is equally accurate, and cannot be confused with the various other incidents of 'gathering together' mentioned in scripture" is more likely CES' answer to the question "why use 'rapture'?"
It's not "more likely CES' answer..." It IS CES' answer.
quote:
The simple truth is, if we want to know what's actually written in the Bible, the word "rapture" is NOT "equally accurate".
We're going in circles. I'll be first to cry uncle on this.
quote:
Darby swiped it from the Irvingites in order to ARTIFICIALLY distinguish the resurrection and gathering of I Thessalonians 4 from the resurrection and gathering of Ezekiel 37. If he had not done so, his whole system of dispensations would have failed because it is an error, biblically.
That's quite a leap. If Darby had called it "The catching away" instead of the "rapture," he could still come up with exactly the same eschatology using different terms (which Wierwille proved, in your own words, by using a Biblically accurate term but promoting the exact same eschatology).
quote:
The dispensationalist emperor's new clothes consist of the pretribulation "rapture" of the "Church". The emperor is nekkid, and as long as we stick with Darby's unscriptural language, we go along with the crowd, admiring his wonderful new theology.
None of which has anything to do with what I've been trying to say, but I've already cried uncle.
quote:
CES makes a big deal about how they stand against tradition for the truth. They haven't made the effort to see for themselves, and they've turned unhearing ears to the admonition of many capable councilors, that the "truth" for which they contend is no less a tradition of men than the things they teach against.
See above.
quote:
I don't have a gripe against you, Rafael.
Nor I against you. I hope you don;t see it that way.
quote:
I do have a gripe against CES' devolution from scriptural accuracy.
And you are presenting your case well.
-
I'll even try to make this a little easier, Steve: Before responding to my post, please note the following...
Raf is NOT saying that The Rapture is a pretribulation event.
Raf is NOT defending dispensationalism.
Raf is NOT saying that the "Church" is a separate and distinct entity from Israel.
Raf is NOT saying that I Thessalonians 7 and Ezekial 37 are describing different events.
ALL RAF IS SAYING, IS GIVE PEACE A CHANCE!
Sorry, couldn't resist.
All Raf is saying is that the word "rapture" is derived from the Latin Vulgate's form of the words "caught away," and is thus "Biblical," regardless of how it has been interpreted or misinterpreted by dispensationalists, covenant theologists, atheists, agnostics, rastafarians, and Democrats.
-
Steve,
You're making assumptions about my argument that are incorrect.
Let's back up a bit and make this a bit more clear:
You said "Rapture is an unbiblical word" (I paraphrase).
I said, "Rapture comes from the Latin, not the Greek."
You counter that we can't get the word "rapture" from the Greek, which is... exactly what I said. The Greek word you cite is translated "caught up." That Latin word I cited is translated "caught up" in the exact same verse. All I am saying is that the word "rapture," because of this one simple truth, is Biblical, unless you are going to argue that we can't use words with Latin origins in this discussion, which is your prerogative but I would respectfully disagree.
NOW, based on what I wrote, you don't need to change a thing about your theology or eschatology. I limited my argument to ONE aspect of your earlier post: whether the word "rapture" is Biblical. Even if you don't agree with my conclusion, can you at least agree that I have a solid argument?
Some other things you note (which I think are strong): Jesus expressed surprise that Nicodemus did not know what he meant by "born again." Jesus did not use the words "new birth." The Bible does not use those words. Yet many Christians recognize the concept as scriptural. Do you? (Maybe you don't: Vince Finnegan now teaches that to be born again is a reference to the resurrection, not to some spiritual experience we have while on this earth). If that's the case, then I used a poor example in making my argument that unbiblical words can be used to describe Biblical concepts (ie, even if "rapture" IS an unbiblical word, that doesn't mean it's an unbiblical concept. If "new birth" is a poor example of this, then certainly "advent" and "ascension" are good examples. Neither word is in scripture, not even in your concordance).
Speaking of which:
quote:
Let's look at the word "rapture". Can we learn anything about "the rapture" by looking in a concordance? No we can't. The word doesn't appear in the concordance.
This is strawman, Steve, and you're a better debater than this. I never said you could find "rapture" in a concordance... from the Greek. HOWEVER, if you had a concordance from the Vulgate, do you think you might be able to find some information on the Latin word in question? Hmm?
You say the Latin word has a different semantic range than the Greek word. I'm unfamiliar with the term "semantic range," but I assume from context you mean that they don't correspond directly in meaning, denotation and connotation. I respect that, if it's what you're saying, but it's extraneous to my argument (which, again, is SOLELY that "rapture" is not an unbiblical word).
quote:
If Paul meant to write about "the rapture", why didn't he use the word "harpage"? Hmmmm... maybe he didn't intend to write about "the rapture"... maybe he had a reason for that.
This is like saying "if Peter wanted to say 'repent and undergo baptism,' he would have said so, but instead he said 'repent and be baptized.'" You're drawing a distinction where none exists.
quote:
So, what biblical information do we have, apart from the bald declarations of Darby, Bullinger and Wierwille, regarding the nature of "the rapture". None, whatsoever.You wrote, "Because the 19th century neologism is equally accurate , and cannot be confused with the various other incidents of 'gathering together' mentioned in scripture."
What evidence can you cite, Raf, other than the unsupported words of Darby, that the resurrection and gathering described in I Thesssalonians 4:13-18 is anything other than the resurrection and gathering promised in Ezekiel 37 and described at various other places in the New Testament?
Steve, can you find one post where I even MENTIONED Darby, much less cited him as a reliable source? One? Come on, one? (Okay, maybe there's one, but I don't remember it).
And here's the whopper, the one where you misread me the worst:
I said that the "rapture" aka "caught away" of I Thessalonians 4 "cannot be confused with the various other incidents of 'gathering together' mentioned in scripture."
YOU changed that to imply that I said "the resurrection and gathering described in I Thesssalonians 4:13-18 is [something] other than the resurrection and gathering promised in Ezekiel 37 and described at various other places in the New Testament?"
Problem: that's not what I said.
Acts 4:26 states (quoting Psalm 2),
"The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ."
Is this the gathering together of I Thessalonians 4?
No. So when you use the words "gathering together" to describe I Thessalonians 4, is there a possibility that someone might not understand what you mean? Whereas, if you use the term word "the rapture," does ANYONE doubt that you're talking about I Thessalonians 4?
Limit my argument to this: Rapture is a Biblical word. According to you, Steve (and you make a compelling case), what Wierwille, CES and others teach about The Rapture is based on a host of misunderstandings and misinterpretations, and CES would be better off abandoning that mindset and going strictly by what the Bible teaches. The "Rapture" of I Thessalonians 4 IS the same thing (again, this is your argument) as the resurrection and gathering promised in Ezekiel 37 and described at various other places in the New Testament.
So what's the problem?
-
Can't make it. Not enough Chicago nurses in attendance.
-
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Lortz:Say, Raf, can you cite me a place in the Bible where the phrase "new birth" occurs?
No. That was my point. There are Biblical concepts whose words are not used in the Bible. "Advent" and "Ascension" are clear examples.
quote:
Gosh, isn't the word "rapture" a noun? Isn't the word "harpazo" in I Thessalonians 4:17 a verb?
Umm, I said LATIN. Not Greek.
And it's not a stretch to suggest that the noun form of a word is related to its verb form. The words "caught up" in the Latin Vulgate are the word "rapiemur," from which we derive the English word "rapture," which can also be used as a verb (or, more accurately in this case, a past participle, ie, "we which are alive and remain shall be raptured together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air").
quote:
Nouns misused as verbs... Verbs misused as nouns... Wasn't there a discussion on these forums about such misuse regarding the word "pistis"?
First of all, it's not being "misused." "Caught up (past participle, not a verb)" implies "rapture (noun)" much the same way "he was baptized (past participle)" implies "there was a baptism (noun)" and yes, much the same way "I am believing (present participle)" implies "I have faith."
quote:
Wierwille always used the biblically correct term for the event, "the gathering together", even though he misplaced it before the tribulation, and mistakenly restricted it to the "Church" as opposed to the believing remnant of Israel with believing Gentiles grafted in on the same basis, by grace through faith.
Wierwille used a Biblically correct term, I agree. But to say that "rapture" is a Biblically incorrect term is false. Not just provably false, but proven false (unless you want to argue that no words derived from the Latin may be used in discourse, in which case I would respectfully but adamantly disagree). It's not an unbiblical term.
quote:
So why did CES deliberately choose to abandon the biblically accurate term in favor of a 19th century neologism? I've asked them before, and never got an answer.
Because the 19th century neologism is equally accurate, and cannot be confused with the various other incidents of "gathering together" mentioned in scripture. They gave this answer in the Revelation tapes you listened to, and I just gave an answer here.
quote:
Love,Steve
Backatcha, brother.
P.S. Once again, to make it clear, I am not trying to defend dispensationalism or a pre-trib rapture here. I'm isolating my comments to one point and one point only, that the word "rapture" is not unbiblical.
-
Steve,
You're entitled to your views on what the Bible does and does not teach, but the word "rapture" is indeed a Biblical word. It's the latin form of the word "caught up."
Saying "the rapture" is not a Biblical word is similar to saying "the new birth" and "advent" are not Biblical terms. Maybe they're not in the King James, but the concepts are certainly there.
(I'm not trying to defend pre-trib or dispensationalism at this point: only noting that the word "rapture" is not unbiblical).
-
I know this isn't what you had in mind, but...
;)-->AHHH, AUTUMN IN FLORIDA!
-
Mike again misses the point:
YOU MEAN WE HAVE TO DIG UP A 1978 ISSUE OF THE WAY MAGAZINE TO FIND OUT WHAT JESUS CHRIST IS DOING TODAY?!?!
Three books on the life, death and person of Jesus Christ, as well as eight books on various other subjects, and none of them cover what Jesus Christ is really doing today; we need to find a 1978 Way Magazine?
Sheesh!
:)--> -
-
quote:
Since they outnumber devils 2:1, that means there'sa minimum number of 36,000 angels on the planet, including the ones
in prison who were disobedient at the time of the Flood in the Noah's
Ark incident. I don't know how many of THOSE were imprisoned, either,
but they're part of the original rebelling 1/3.
Actually, we don't know that. Book simply doesn't say.
-
quote:
He was talking about a true conversion versus a false conversion. What say ye?
I say that there is such a thing as a false conversion. It takes place when a person SAYS "Jesus is Lord" but doesn't mean it. I call it the difference between profession and confession. Wierwille (or rather, Kenyon) called it the difference between mental assent and believing. Whatever you call it, it's the difference between meaning something and just saying something.
"Jesus is Lord." Anyone can say it. But not everyone who says it, means it. I don't pretend to know who does or who doesn't. But I can guarantee you there are tons of people who think Jesus is their Lord, but he's not, because it's a mere profession and not a true confession of the heart. Of those, Jesus said they would come to him and say "Lord, Lord," and he will reply that he never knew them. Strong words, but I think they prove that there are people who THINK Jesus is their Lord, but don't really believe it.
Speaking of "Left Behind," one of the most believable characters in the first (awful) movie is the pastor, who sits in church after the "rapture" and prays about what a hypocritical fool he was. "I knew Your message. I knew Your Word. I stood RIGHT HERE! And I PREACHED IT! And I was GOOD! But they're gone. They're gone. Ah, but knowing and believing are two different things."
-
quote:
What I have seen is that they do "interviews" with people and ask if they think they are a good person. Then they will ask if that individual has ever told a lie, and if so, what does that make them.(liar) Then they may ask a few more questions like, "have you ever stolen something"-even office supplies from work, and then ask, what does that make you?(thief) I don't know if I agree with their method, but essentially what they are doing is having each individual search themselves to realize where they stand.
You know, this is EXACTLY (and I mean danged near word for word) what Kirk Cameron's character does with another character in the (awful) movie, "Left Behind II: Tribulation Force."
-
Dave,
I think Steve is trying to say that posting links to articles is all Jeff does.
I think Jeff is a great guy. If he wants to just post links, that's fine with me. I'd rather hear his own words too. But if he doesn't want to do that, it's up to him. It does leave him open to the criticism, though.
quote:
I am still trying to learn how to be a living epistle and not a walking concordance...
Jeff,
I share your struggle.
-
Count me in.
-
Silly?
Oh, you mean the acronym!
Coooool!
Baseball (the talkin' sport)
in Sports
Posted
Considering tring that my Yankees have been in six of the last eight World Series, and have won four of them, I can say the following with confidence:
I want the Yankees to beat the Red Sox.
IF, by chance, the Red Sox win, then I will be pulling for them to finally break their curse against St. Louis or Houston (by the way, CONGRATS HOUSTON!!!)