Bob

Belle, If you come up with anything, I'll be more than happy to join your lawsuit.

He repudiated just about everything in the first book. He seemed ashamed at even writing the first book.

VP taught in pfal that "all" is either: 1) All without exception 2) All without distinction Later, it was changed to: 1) All without exception 2) All with distinction because the initial definitions were obviously stupid, being identical in meaning. The second form of "all" is stupid also, since the context tells you what "all" is referencing, and "all" means "all", not "all except...".

I believe they were in New England for a bit after leaving the farm. Not sure if they are in or not, or even still in NE.

Well, you guys did it now. The site has been taken down:

The tree will need to be put on mark and avoid for causing divisions.

Not sure why anyone would want TWI's opinion of IBM, but it's there. Article: Is iSeries Support Keeping Up with iSeries Complexity?

Not only did the BOT not question the validity of the lawsuit, the judge in the case noted that evidence existed that Rosalie aided in securing Mrs. Allen for Craig. Why is it so surprising that a group of people purporting to be a do-good religeous type, is in fact, evil incarnate. Nothing new. Only history repeating itself, over and over again. Religeon is a great facade for those who know how to use it.

Good God! Do you actually believe that? Craig voluntarily took a break from STS teachings after it became obvious that Paul was going forward with the lawsuit, 1 year after the entire BOT knew about it. The bot never questioned the validity either. Craig was never "booted." He voluntarily stepped down from President, after it was obvious very few in TWI were going to support him in that position any longer. He was given the research department. Six months later, he is put on spiritual probation, whatever that is. He was never booted. It's not even clear what his relationship with TWI is now. Given TWI's relationship with Mark, it makes one think.

It's in the opening post, Mark Naberschnig, 46, of Duluth, Ga.

It isn't the first time, and probably, sadly, will not be the last time. Who would have believed Craig was having sex with married women? Who would have believed TWI would support him, even after knowing about it? I think you are giving TWI too much benefit of the doubt Oldies. Hell, even suggesting TWI has scrupples is stretching it...

Mr. Hammeroni, You're beloved limb coordinator wouldn't happen to be the region coordinator of New England now?

I think most of the questions have been answered by the person who brought the legal action against mark. See the thread: I am the one who filed against "Ex Minister get 6 years guy"

See Me, Thank you for posting this. You and your daughter are extremely courageous in standing up against this guy and TWI. I think you've answered the questions posted on the other thread in regards to TWI and their involvement. It is as I suspected, but I am even more disgusted by them now. How can anyone in their right mind support someone who would harm a child?

I think even asking the question of TWI being responsible is a bit too much for a loyal TWI member. The implications of such question, as LLP pointed out, are enormous and impact greatly on one's belief system. Mr. Hammeroni, their beliefs do tend to seperate them from other groups, which is why I think the comparisons with the RCC and others falls through. Criag's number one charge to the Way Corps was to keep the "household" clean. A rather significant part of their training is geared directly toward this. I suppose another question would be, does TWI believe that a person who sexually abuses a child is possessed? I don't know. It would line up with their other doctrine, but they have been silient on the subject of sex and possession. If they believe he was possessed, then how did he go so long without the devil spirit alarm going off by any one of the members/corps operating the manifestation of discerning of spirits. They do claim that everyone can operate it at any time. How was he missed? This would indicate that their doctrine doesn't work (Mark did this for a long time). If they don't believe he was possessed, which is a distinct possibility (why else would Mark believe he could return to his ministry carreer?), then it would indicate they don't believe what he did to be wrong, or it being a minor mistake. Either way, TWI doesn't look clean.

I can relate to the being scared, as probably most can. I do get the impression that a large number of people never did find themselves again, but ended up switching to another group to continue the impressed personality.

TWI's responsibility in this matter is what I see as the main discussion point of the thread (outside of exposing Mark's treachery), and a most useful discussion. I think most are agreed that Mark deserves all punishment he received, if not more. But what is not exactly clear, especially by those still in TWI, is TWI's involvement, responsibility, complicity, or even criminal participation. My opinion is that TWI is fully responsible, had knowledge of what was going on, did nothing to stop it, has done nothing since, and most likely doesn't see any wrong done by Mark or consider it a minor offense. But for someone still in TWI, this is a huge leap in thinking. It doesn't fit with what they know of TWI and is difficult, if not impossible, to fathom. I know someone in TWI right now, dealing with this same issue, who's opinion is very similar to LLPs. LLP's posts have been most enlightening in helping me understand why this current TWI member remains loyal, and understanding the questions, doubts, justifications that her thinking entails. To that end, I extremely appreciate LLP posting here and what others have posted, adding to the discussion. There are a lot of unknowns here: - When did TWI know what Mark was doing? - What was their response? - Did they relocate him after knowing what he did to the girl, and leave him in a position to abuse other children? - What is TWI's doctrine on the subject? TWI has been silent on the issue. In my mind, their silence is implicating them. Their actions are in direct contradiction of their public doctrines and teachings and past actions in dealing with wrong doing in their leadership, further implicating them. But, I sat through countless teachings listening to Craig scream about some evil so and so did. I watched many friends put on mark and avoid for minor offenses. I saw the witch hunts, looking for such things as a dirty house to show that a person is possessed and should be kicked out. I see the hypocrisy very clear. LLP may have been only listening to post-Craig STS teachings, where only bland, basic, rehashed doctrines are presented. Maybe not. Most experiences with TWI are unique. So, the three questions are: Why is TWI responsible? Why is TWI not responsible? Does it matter whether TWI is responsible or not, only my standing with God matters (which I think is a part of LLPs thinking?)?

Wordwolf, With all due respect, I don't think engaging in a line by line argument is very constructive. It will only require LLP to reinforce her(?) position. You cannot change someone's mind for them by shear force of an argument. The most you can do is give them information they do not already have to make a more informed decision. I would like to see this thread continue on the informative path. Also, the way you are formatting your quote/replies makes it appear you are yelling, which I doubt you are. Might I suggest using the quote tags around each individual quote to separate your comments. My apologies if I'm misreading your posts.

I saw the personality changes also. The group think mode and mimicking the leader is a classic cult syndrome. Everyone has a personality that is uniquely them, and can never be removed. It can be suppressed, but is always retrievable (at least according to Steve Hassan – I read his book also). A lot of times, I found myself mimicking Craig. At the time, it seemed right. Now it is abhorrent. I'm glad to be myself again. Have been for some time now and the air is so much fresher.

I don't think the comparison of TWI to schools, other churches, etc is really fair. TWI is unique in their belief that they are the one true household of God, the modern day Zion, where the Word prevails and everyone enjoys God's protection. If this were true, where was God's protection for these children that God's representative abused? Where are the manifestations of word of knowledge, word of wisdom, discerning of spirits? Was God silent and allowed this to happen to the children? Comparing TWI's response to the Catholic Church, or any other, is also stretching it. TWI spends considerable time teaching its followers to abhor evil, shun those who commit such, etc. How many people were put on mark and avoid for miniscule offenses in comparison? Yet, what did TWI do about this person after knowing what happened? They relocated him? So he could have a fresh batch of children? The hypocrisy is glaring. I say that TWI is a haven for sexual predators, based on their handling of this and many other incidents involving sexual abuse. For TWI’s part, they continue to be silent, even though a reasonable person’s reading of the scriptures would demand the evil be exposed and expelled (even the common sense of a non-religious person would conclude that abusing innocent children requires some justice to be done). I feel for you LLP. It’s hard to take such a glaring contradictory event and fit it into what is believed to be true of one’s religious beliefs and TWI. I spent 3 months trying to fit Craig’s episodes into what TWI had taught. It was only when I stopped trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and started asking questions and getting answers to them that I realized the jig-saw puzzle was defective. I know of a mother who had her own daughter sexually attacked by someone in TWI. She watched TWI’s standard “slap on the wrist” of the offender and the “ministry not be blamed” wheels turn. Yet, she has managed to somehow justify how this event could occur in God’s household and continues to be loyal to TWI. It’s really sad. Ask questions and expect real answers. If not given them, find them.

This deserves to be on the front page a little longer. To those still in. Do you think this pervert is unique? Do you think there have never been any others in TWI, or ever will be? Tell me, has TWI done a teaching on physical fornication yet? Have they done one on sexual abuse yet? How about one on sexual abuse of minors? How about a teaching on how to spot these perverts? I spent years in TWI and never heard any teaching on the subject, but heard plenty on tedious topics. Consider the possibility that TWI is a haven for sexual predators...

I suppose I should add my input here, having had TWI destroy my marriage. Even though at one time my conscience was kept silent when doing despicable acts in the name of TWI, I still cannot fathom why. I think for me, the total of all the wrongs done piled up to the point where my conscience finally was able to get through to me and I finally listened. Yet, how can these people continue to repeat such acts, over and over again, and not have it bother them? Are they immune to human nature, or are they just brain dead? I don't know. Worse things have been done in the name of God, with people still willing to justify them as being righteous. I tend to flip-flop between feeling sorry for my ex, and being angry with her for not having the common sense to see the harm she did/does to herself, family, and children. If there is a God and a future judgement, these "leaders" of TWI are in for one hell of a surprise. Personally, waiting until then is a mis-carriage of judgment. They deserve it now.

I'm not sure what your saying Hay. If your saying we should feel sorry for the bastard and get him treatment, I highly disagree. Just because someone did it to you doesn't mean you can do it to someone else. I don't buy the "I can't help it" argument either. Seems to me the obvious solution is to fry the pervert, preventing him from repeating again on someone else. Should help stop the cycle.

LLP, I think most people here know how you feel. We've all been through it to one degree or another. I think most people would agree that anyone who would sexually molest a child deserves no sympathy. They deserve the worst punishment imanginable. Yet, TWI, as they have done in the past, and continue to do, do nothing about it. Worse yet, they relocate such people, giving them a fresh batch of children. They put them in positions of leadership, further enancing their cover. This is not an isolated case. I know of children who have had the same horror done to them this year and TWI has done nothing about it. The purpose of this forum is to expose TWI. I cannot think of anything needing more exposer than how they allow children to be abused this way. If you know more, please post it. You never know who you may be helping.

I remember when Suzi died in child birth. Just happened to be in hicksville when it happened. Didn't remember the names though, never knew them personally. Not only did Craig crucify her on the corps night, he sent a tape of it to Mark and made him listen to it. God! One sexual pervert slaming another one. How screwed up can a group get? When was Mark ordained anyway?