Mike

Eagle, It's even worse than that! I wrote in Post #27: "...the theory is that God is a very good and powerful planer, but has no detailed knowledge of what anyone else is going to do before they do it. The theory has it that God is very good at predicting and then planning for all possible outcomes, and to forge them into His overall general plan. This is a good description of the devil, but not of the Creator. God created time itself and is not held captive to it." It looks like Geer switched to the false god in the process. Talk about a MILLSTONE!

WordWolf, You wrote: “The red drapes were left out of the book by the editors. __ In their attempts to operate their 5-senses understanding to make the best book possible- AS THEY THEMSELVES EXPLAINED ON THE GSC-” Please produce your evidence of this. "THEY" plural? I only remember one such person posting, HCW, and he wasn't really an editor, but a layout manager. I have much more to say on this, but I'd like to see your evidence. Are you pulling this out of your memory? Or do you have the thread names and Post #s so we can examine them ourselves?

Thank YOU, Wafer Not. It's been pleasant. God bless you too. WW, you crack me up. WHAT drives you to such drivel?

Hi templelady, I’ve had some good conversations with you too. I just started reading your post and though I’d answer the first two lines before I get a little distracted by the rest of your post, and a lot distracted by the tract housing projects after it. You wrote: “Please show specific instances where Oral PFAL (heard through tape and "film" ) is different from "written" PFAL.” Here are two major differences, right off the bat, although there are many more. 1) The red drapes are not in the book. A few years ago I started a grand project of a split screen comparison of the two. On the left I have the film class transcript and on the right I have the book text. There are only tiny differences at first, but they mount rapidly as the class progresses. I was very surprised at how many differences there were. Here’s another: for “needs and wants parallel,” the book uses the word “balanced” in place of parallel a few times. 2) The books have far more information than the film class, for the most part. Of course the unforgivable sin was removed entirely from the film class, while there are TWO entire chapters on it, one in PFAL and one in WWAY. The time travel adventures of Paul are only a few lines in the film class, but an entire chapter in the books. I used this feature of the expanded material in the books to taunt posters here for months, even AC Test Ace Students, with their ignorance of the books. The books go into FAR more detail, and with FAR less mistakes. *** You wrote: “Please cite where VPW said that we are only to master written information.” Well, as far as I know he never told us to master the soundtrack of the film class, and that’s only logical, because they never released that recording to us to work with. It was always highly controlled and only trusted people got a hold of it for many years. I was one of the ones who helped control it. Dr DID specifically tell us to master written materials from the class, though. In 1975 he hinted to the upper leadership in the Ephesians Corps teachings that mastering RHST was a good thing to do by lamenting that hardly ANYONE had done it. In 1979 he stated the NONE of the AC students had done it right, mastered RHST in that red font quote I supplied in Post #187. This tells me that the only ones who had done it were his much older students who were dying off by ’79. In Sound Out ’84 he told the younger grads that they ought to start mastering some of the books. In late ’84 and early ’85 he traveled all around the country and world telling people OFTEN that mastering the collaterals was very important, culminating with his Last/Lost teaching where he tells top leadership especially but also including everyone else that they MUST master the written PFAL materials. These were his dying last words, and the teaching was very short, YET he mentions mastering the written TWICE! Looking at Peter’s and Paul’s dying last words we see them focusing on urging their people to master the written materials too. In II Peter it’s set up in Chapter 1 and the grand finale in Chapter 3 goes into “all” of Paul’s epistles being absolutely crucial to get right. For Paul, the whole of II Timothy is about fighting back against the devil’s moves with the written materials. Dr set up the Way Corps motto as “It IS Written.” Too bad none of them ever asked WHERE is it written, definitively written and accessible, that is. The ancient scriptures are not accessible, and the modern man-made reconstructions of them are FAR from definitive, shifting about constantly by the latest theological fads in translation and manuscript rating. It’s even logical that in business written contracts are far more detailed and executable than verbal ones. Templelady, I wouldn’t say that Dr wanted us to throw away the verbal teaching, but the much greater emphasis was always given to the written. I could go on in much more detail for both of these major points, but my time is limited. I will read the rest of your post when I get more time, and hopefully have more time to respond. My schedule is sometimes limiting. I don’t even have time to edit this post much, so please excuse any typos.

Wayfer Not, Howdy. It’s nice to have an actual conversation. You wrote: “Have you ever ran in to or met anyone who has done what you think should be done with PFAL?” Yes. Several here; several elsewhere on the Internet, and a couple from my old days in the ministry. They participate at various levels, and a few at the same intensity I do it. The ones I met here don’t discuss it on the boards, though. They don’t like the riff raff and cold scolding theologians that hound me. I don’t blame them. I don't count you in that bunch because you want to discuss things. *** I had asked you if you ignored the possibility that God Almighty Himself was telling Dr to tell us to master PFAL. You responded with: “Yes I do ignore it because Victor Paul Wierwille used the Word of God deceitfully to satisfy his penis.” That presupposes two things: that the intensity of the gossip/rumor mill is accurate after 20 plus years of harping, and that God is as uptight about sex as you are. I mean, we all should have known that Dr had sin in his life, because the Word says so. Every person who God ordained as His spokesman has had sin in their lives. It’s a big leap of theology for you to assert, “But not THAT kind of sin!” But really, if you were the devil, how would you try to take down a man of God? I’m speaking figuratively, but it’s not quite coming out that way. All I know is that when I look at the teaching, what is actually printed in the books, it has God written all over it. Why should I listen to people’s reports and people’s theology and people's scolding, when there is such better material to focus on? The reports and theology are dark and condemning. I know of a God Who is forgiving and merciful, and Who is able to work wonderful things with anyone, even sinners, even you and me. I've had enough dark condemnation of religion. Anyone escaping from TWI-2 should have had enough dark condemnation of religion. I’m not only offended by finger pointers, I’m bored silly by them. They have nothing positive to offer. *** You wrote: “If God really wanted us to master PFAL, He would have told many more than you because Victor has been dead for 20+ years.” He actually HAS told many more than me. I heard it from others. I didn’t hear it directly from God, not at first, anyway. See my post to T-Bone above, Post # 204, for more on senses hearing leading to spiritual hearing. As far as senses hearing, God told thousands to master PFAL over a ten year span. People are slow to hear. *** You wrote: “Here's another question I have for you: __ Do you ignore the possibility that maybe it's God putting the desire on YOUR heart to do what you do and not ours? Maybe it's just for you Mike.” I wouldn’t ignore it if that’s the way the message went. But the message goes NOT that way. God is calling all grads. At this point in time I expect mostly only the older ones to be able to hear it. Did you see what I posted earlier about Revvel, in post #190? This message involves the Gathering Together. The whole Body of Christ is involved. This is not a mere revival for certain mindsets; it’s the big enchilada. It’s not an individual thing. *** You wrote: “I'm not here to talk you out of what you believe. I praise God for whatever works for YOU whether I agree with it or not. If it gets you closer to Him, praise Him. I just don't think it's rigth that you tell me what God wants for me. He has a tendency to go right to the source in my life." But if you haven't learned to hear the big things from God, the REALLY big things, then it's in your favor to have someone tell you the senses message so that you can then hear it directly from God. It always works that way for the really big things. In the first century God could only get the Mystery through to Paul, because it was too big for even Peter to hear it. Look at that quote from the BTMS in Post #198 where it says "Our reason says, 'That just cannot be,'" The really big things we need to hear via the senses first, and thenlater we can hear that it actually has been god trying all along to tell us directly but or world-training our schooling in the adversary's realm leads us to reject it. You may think God gives you warm feelings and winks and mild guidance, but I'm talking about MUCH bigger stuff. We're called to do ALL the things Jesus Christ did, not merely get along with God, feel good about it, and have a nice life. *** You wrote: “I am in no way saying any of this in a demeaning manner to you.” Neither am I trying to demean you and your life with God. I'm just declaring that God has MUCH more for us. I get it that you are not on the attack, otherwise I wouldn’t take you seriously and I'd have to lump you in with the riff raff and cold scolding theologians here. The way I deal with them is either ignore them or show lurking readers how to deal with them. I greatly prefer conversation like you have allowed me. *** You wrote: “Because of how zealous you are about what you believe, I think you would be better suited to start your own fellowship. Then you could have people who agree with you. Wouldn't it be nice to have people that wanted to agree with you and share your same beliefs?” I’m already in a fellowship, but I’m not the coordinator. We meet twice a week, and we have regular contact with several of the people I mentioned above who are scattered around the country. I come here for many reasons, at least four I can think of right now, not merely to meet people who want to participate. *** You wrote: “But what would really be better is if you could accept that people could disagree with you and not be wrong or off the Word.” Sure. I do that all the time with many things. However, when it comes to my message that's different. My mesaage is not of my origin. I call it “my” because I have embraced it. It’s from God, so those who disagree with it are disagreeing with God. This kind of idea is not well accepted as even possible in our culture, where God is relatively forbidden to actually get in touch with anyone directly, and were words are excanged, English words in my case. Our culture accepts warm feelings about God, and maybe even FROM God, but exact worded messages are strictly taboo. Some accept that God could talk that way to ancient people with robes and sandals and beards (on the men), but that’s strictly forbidden now. Only kooks can claim (and wrongly) that God has an exact text of a message in our culture. It’s another non-Biblical theology, like the strict forbidding of God to work with anyone who doesn’t tow the line on the latest sex rules. *** You wrote: “It just befuddles me that you would spend so much time to try to convince people who don't agree with you.” Why doesn’t it befuddle you that the riff raff here spends so much time and energy trying to nullify, camouflage, distort, and mock my message? Why doesn’t it befuddle you that they just CAN'T leave me all by my lonesome to post my message with a few civil, conversational people like you? What do they have to gain by investing so much to thwart me? Do you ever ask them that? I know why they are so hopped up on their anti-Mike mission. My message is from the True God and the adversary hates it so he puls on as many strings he can grab. *** You wrote: “You might have a more captive audience if you stopped telling people they aren't doing God's will. I view it as YOUR will, not God's.” I'm telling them that there is a FAR better will to do than what they are presently stuck with. That's good news, or it should be. Of course you view it as my will. That’s obvious. It’s the expected norm. If you don’t expect anything more than a feelings God to interact with the world, then you MUST think I’m off on my own trip. But why do you embrace such a mediocre theology? Why bother with a God of your own making who can only give backrubs once in a while? Why bother with life if the five senses and human words are all there is? If you want to see something better than a nice live, try coming back to PFAL and see what is actually written there. Come back and see why all those renegade top leaders, and all the riff raff here, and all the rumor and gossip mongers, are so united and dedicated to seeing people NOT open up PFAL and study it out. Come back and see what is so hated by these people.

T-Bone, We were taught that what we CAN know by the five senses God expects us to know. The first step is to bring in what information we can via the five senses, like reading what is written. As we master that, stand on it, rely on it, THEN God can directly teach us the spiritual understanding. The ultimate spiritual understanding or beliefs do not come via the five senses, but the foundational starting points do. *** Back to your use of scripture, inserting assertions as I did: I do not assert to have PROVED my point by my insertions, I merely illustrated my point. The proof of my point, as I already posted to you, comes from careful and recent absorption of the PFAL material and the application of it. God can then tell us that we are finally on the right track, giving us our proof privately and individually, and imparting to us the spiritual understanding. MAYBE I should buy TWO lottery tickets?

T-Bone, Valid move. The question remains, though, is it true? The way I decide this question is to open PFAL and read and apply.

THERE! Ok, now. I'm finally ready to look at that weeks-old backlog from this thread. Assuming I find some time in today's busy schedule, and assuming no others will post noteworthy items in the meantime, I should finally get underway at hacking away at that old backlog.... assuming those assumptions are true... well... MAYBE I'll get to the backlog SOMEDAY... [note to self: buy lottery ticket]

WordWolf, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me another one. **************************************************************** **************************************************************** **************************************************************** **************************************************************** Raf, You did the same basic thing dmiller did on that Geer thread, but I have to credit you in the WAY you did it. At least you had some style in your approach, and you did it so briefly and subtly that it didn’t even come close to disrupting the topic flow by dragging in my message in a blatant way, like dmillers's bating. I think you did the same thing dmiller tried to do in such a way that many posters probably didn’t even catch it. I actually found it intellectually amusing when I happened upon your Post #38, and not in a derisive way. I admired your wit. Let's review. Again, the context was the outrageously stupid limited foreknowledge theory on that Geer thread. You quoted me thusly: “The limited foreknowledge theory is one of the stupidest, blindest pieces of intellectual garbage I've ever seen.” You then responded with: “I'd put it second. __ Oh, wait, "intellectual." You're right.” I actually had a good belly laugh when I saw that. I also have a response. *** For those who didn’t get it, what you were saying (without actually saying it) is this: “I’d put the limited foreknowledge theory second, because Mike’s God-breathed PFAL theory is the stupidest, blindest piece of intellectual garbage I've ever seen. “Oh wait___ Mike’s theory isn’t intellectual at all. Mike’s theory is only the stupidest, blindest piece of UNintellectual garbage I've ever seen. “Yes, Mike, you’re right. The limited foreknowledge theory IS the stupidest, blindest pieces of intellectual garbage I've ever seen.” *** Ok, now for my response. You’re right, Raf, in your pegging my belief in God-breathed PFAL as non-intellectual. My belief is not a result of intellectual machinations. I have often here asserted that it cannot be proved or derived by intellectual means. Holding a position that is not intellectually justified irks intellectuals. It offends them. When I step into an intellectual mode of thought it irks me when someone comes along and states something that cannot be intellectually justified, or derived from some other accepted body of knowledge using accepted intellectual methods of sound reasoning ans logic. But when I step into an intellectual mode I have learned to not take it too seriously, like many intellectuals do. I do not worship the human intellect as capable of arriving at the deeper, more important things in life. I recognize human intellect as a mere tool for dealing with senses matters, and that it is totally useless in deriving spiritual truths. Human intellect is put to shame by God when it tries to assert itself into God’s realm. *** I Corinthians 1:17-31 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words [like intellectual derivations], lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom[like intellectual derivations]: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world [like breathing His life into PFAL] to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world [like me, maybe?] to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised [like VPW, maybe?], hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. *** Raf, surely you can understand what I’m saying here because you go through the exact same set of ideas I just did every time you witness to an agnostic, or atheist, or Christ rejecter. They ask you for your intellectual derivation to justify your belief that Jesus Christ was literally raised from the dead and you boldly tell them that they must set aside their intellect and first believe to then see. You tell them that belief that the original manuscripts of the Bible were perfect and flawless is the STARTING point for your intellectual exercises, and is in the category of a postulate, and not an intellectually derived theorem. Your fundamental beliefs are not intellectually derived from other fundamental beliefs, by definition. The same way you brush off criticism that your life is intellectually dishonest because you believe in God’s Word given in ancient times in dead languages, I too brush off your criticism of me that my life is intellectually dishonest because I believe in God’s Word given in modern times in plain English. *** From “The Bible tells Me So” on pages 23 and 24 we see: II Corinthians 9:8: And God is able, to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things may abound to every good work. Have we been limiting God in our lives? We must be if we do not have all sufficiency in everything. Sufficiency is the will of God for His children in order that His children may abound unto every good work. Our having sufficiency is God’s will for us; yet how many of us have limited God by not allowing Him to fulfill this promise in our lives? How slow we have been to realize that God is our ability, that He is the life of our lives, the strength of our strength, that He is our sufficiency. We frequently limit God in ourselves by our wrong believing, by accepting the knowledge that comes to us through our senses. Our reason says, “That just cannot be,” and so we confess the negative, when all the time His spirit within us is crying out, “Sufficiency in everything.” We have been so schooled to revere the knowledge that comes to us through our five senses that we fail to recognize the knowledge that comes from the higher realm, the spiritual, where the Word of God, and not reason, has first place. Both realms or worlds are here: the natural world is factual; the spiritual world is true. As there are four kingdoms in this world, and one supersedes the other: the plant kingdom, animal kingdom, kingdom of man and the Kingdom of God; so, there is a natural world and a supernatural or spiritual world. The natural world and everything in it comes to the mind through or by way of the natural senses. The truths of the spiritual world are absolutely not dependent upon the senses, but rather on the spirit from God in man. We cannot know anything about the spiritual world by way of the senses. That is why Paul said by divine inspiration in I Corinthians 2:14, “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him ... because they [spiritual matters] are spiritually discerned.” Spiritual things from the spiritual world may be known in this world only by the spirit which dwells in us. Then, and only then, can the Spirit relate impressions and truths to us about the spiritual world and make them logical. Then, and only then, do we have the God-given ability within us, making known to us things about the spiritual world.

rascal, It was HIS OWN poop!

I mentioned earlier that there were still two more responses to the Geer thread I want to put here. One of them I’ve already alluded to. Here's the context: I had expanded my mentioning of the "God's limited foreknowledge" theory in Post #27, at Jonny Lingo’s request. Then dmiller chimed in with Post #32 , quoting from my Post #27 thusly: “It’s mind boggling to think that brains like Geer and the CES group have fallen for this junk.” dmiller, you then responded to that quote from me with: “What boggles MY MIND -- is that if docvic put this in pfal -- you would believe it hook, line, and sinker. __And call it revelation, no less.” This is still another example of you bating me on other threads by bringing up my message even though it is totally out of context of the topic at hand. You seem to be gettingh desparate. You’re exhibiting the same desperation that Tom Strange does in his deflecting the topic(s) that were being discussed on this thread with silly and abusive administrative comments on what I should post and where. You’re exhibiting the same desperation that WW just did in his singling out my harsh (but justified) responses to Tom by stripping them of their justification. Dmiller, more and more, as I counter your attempts to nullify my message, you are flaying out with very desperate counter-tempts to deal with my hogtieing of yor nullifications. Here in this latest attempt you are inventing in your own mind outrageous beliefs that I MIGHT hold when you write this: ““What boggles MY MIND -- is that if docvic put this [outrageous limited foreknowledge theory] in pfal...” You put an outrageous belief into my position and then claim it boggles you mind. You have no justification for doing this hypothetical placing of an outrageous belief into my position. You have no pattern to draw from. You pull the outrageousness out of the clear blue, without precedent, and then claim it boggles your mind that I COULD hold such an outrageous belief. You may even be inventing a new logical fallacy in this desparate maneuver. Can you name one other outrageous belief I hold because it’s printed in PFAL? Just one? Name me a page number or chapter title or article title and some quoted text of just ONE outrageous piece of doctrine printed PFAL that I embrace? If you’re going to make a prediction of my embrace of an outrageously stupid doctrine similar to God’s limited foreknowledge IF IT WERE printed in PFAL, then name me one other such outrageous doctrine printed in PFAL and that I embrace, and from which you have deduced your prediction. Show me the pattern of repeated acceptance from which you base this baseless theory of yours. Can you name even ONE outrageous PFAL doctrine?

WW, You wrote: "This must be the "easy-to-be-entreated-love-of-God" Mike claims to have." No, this is the kind of love where a puppy (Tom) who messes the carpet needs to have his nose shoved into his own doings to learn how his master feels when he lets loose. *** You wrote: "...counting only the replies and not the quotes he's replying to..." And why would you not want to include the insulting, demeaning, condescending, idiotic quotes to which I was responding to? Is it because you want others to ignore them? Is it a blatent attempt to take them out of context? Just wondering? Or was it because you want to bury the content of my other posts to more civil posters? Or both?

Ok, I just found Revvel. I have a hard time getting the search function to work and was avoiding it. I had only looked at that “signless return” thread briefly, and I was not very interested. I have no recollection of an earlier Revvel thread on 7 holy days, as that is even less interesting to me. My position is that the Return of Christ is FAR more “signless” than any theologies I had ever heard of. Not only do I think the Return and our participation is not pre-announced and therefore quite hidden, but I also think that it’s invisible to senses bound people EVEN AS IT OCCURS! My position is that our Gathering Together is not the sensational senses-obvious event we’ve previously thought. I think we need to develop spiritual sight to see it happening. I’m convinced it’s going on RIGHT NOW, but few are interested in it. I do not believe that everything happens in a flash, in a twinkling of an eye, an atom of time. That does happen, but in a later stage. The early stage that is going on right now consists of God’s invitation to “rise up to meet the Lord in the air” and that the rising up is not physical, but spiritual. The “air” is not atmospheric, but the God-breathed air of what God breathes out and into us... it’s the God-breathed doctrine of PFAL. We are to rise up from the earthly, senses bound point of view that is part of the curse of Adam, and we are to learn to see from God’s spiritual perspective. It’s not an altitude above sea level thing, measured in feet or meters, that constitutes our rising “up.” We rise from the earthly perspective to the spiritual perspective. We learn to do this by mastering PFAL. That’s why it was given to us. we are not sucked up in altitude by a physical vacuum cleaner, but we are TAUGHT to rise up SPIRITUALLY. I’ve posted all this before. My position is very far removed from Revvel’s and that’s why I was uninterested in that thread. It amazes me how little attention is paid to what I post. To confuse me with Revvel is proof that my detractors know little about my position, just like the many proofs that they know little about the written PFAL they criticize.

Tom, You really are living up to your last name. I can’t imagine a more strange set of comments than you just made. You wrote: “Mike, this thread is where we can discuss PFAL, and is the ONLY PLACE you're allowed to post your stuff without fear of being reported... and I guess technically you did post about PFAL in your post, but it was with the stuff from the CG thread. __ Was it just too much to ask of you to post responses ON THAT THREAD?” YESSSSS! It is asking too much! What kind of strange Tom are you to not understand this? If I had posted what I posted HERE on the Gear thread instead, then it would have violated the agreement I have with management to avoid such actions. It would have generated complaints that I am filling the Gear thread with my PFAL message. I did post on the Gear thread earlier and on topic and far removed from the topic of my usual message. Yet dmiller took it upon himself to frantically bring up my PFAL message there anyway. You are losing my respect with stupid comments like the above. Get it together and think things through before you mindlessly complain about my actions! Hear me? You’re making an idiot of yourself. *** You wrote: “...few if any people from that thread are going to come down here to read your post about that thread and you know it...” Yes I know it and I don’t give a rats foot. Why do you? *** You wrote: “...so why do you do it?” None of your business! Tend to your own matters. *** You wrote: “..can you not 'edit' yourself and just address things on another thread without turning it into a 'Mike fight'?” Yes, I can avoid turning things into a fight by posting things closely related to my message HERE, and totally ignoring your mindless preferences. *** You wrote: “I'm sure you can... I mean you go about your business all day doing that don't you? When you're going in to get paid from one of your clients you don't say "I'm all done, that'll be $40 and by the way PFAL is God-breathed" do you?” Yes I most certainly can, you condescending xxxx! And as I cited above, when I want to make a comment that is far removed from my message I do post it in the pertinent thread, like my earlier post on Geer, his earlier positives and the foreknowledge thing. *** You wrote: “C'mon Mike... it's just common courtesy.” No, YOU come on and get some common courtesy! I don't take your demands seriously. They are poorly thought through. *** You wrote in very insulting derogatory terms: “This thread is set up so that you can post your "God-breathed I've got Jesus growing physically inside my brain" stuff... not as YOUR place to respond to other threads...” Why are you even bothering to say things like this? You are just demonstrating for all that you have no logical response to what I post so you resort to trivialities, and illogical ones at that. *** You wrote: “...but it is a free country, and pretty much a free board, so if you want to be rude, go ahead... it would be a pleasant surprise though if you weren't.” Tom, you have beaten me to the punch at being rude by a longshot! *** You wrote regarding my question about Revvel: “Mike, do you really think we're that stoopid to think that you really don't know who he/she is? no... wait a minute... you probably do... but that's beside the point!” I have not been reading all the threads here like you do because I have a life. As for stupidity, you broadcast your lack of understanding quite well.

Tom Strange and Raf, This thread has no one track nor one topic to get back to. It was designed by management to keep complaints down, thus minimizing hassles to them, and for me to have a spot to place my message. The topic shifts about quite a lot, and any mention of such a shift at the beginning of a post will be helpful to readers. Think of this thread as a one-thread-forum. I still have two more items to comment on from the Gear thread before I get back to my backlog from several weeks ago here. But now I'd like to answer most of the recent posts of today. ********************************************************* ********************************************************* ********************************************************* ********************************************************* Tom and dmiller, I have no idea who Revvel is but you got me interested. I’ve been here reading these weeks but sparingly. Which threads feature Revvel? ********************************************************* ********************************************************* ********************************************************* ********************************************************* dmiller, I had written: “VPW rightfully demanded “his way or the highway” because God was working with him in a special, 2000 year unique fashion, and God placed him as the one in charge.” You responded with: “Sadly -- I bought into that at one point in my life. I chalk it up to the *foolishness of youth*, (these days).” No, the sad thing is that you didn’t go far enough with buying it. If you had really bought the idea you would have responded to this instruction in segment 5 of the 1979 AC to the all the AC students and all the AC grads: “I have set for our people, and it’s set in the book on ‘Receiving the Holy Spirit Today,’ and people, when you reach the Advanced Class, you ought to be able almost to quote this line for line. You should have mastered this book by the time you get to the Advanced Class. If you haven’t, you better get busy and do it - work it to where you understand the Word of God in every facet, in every way of it’s utilization regarding the holy spirit field - all of them, you must know this book, in and out. But I’ve discovered as I’ve worked among my people, and even all the grads of the Advanced Class, there still are areas where we got to push ourselves.” No one in upper leadership really responded to this because by 1979 everyone was giving VPW lip service but their hearts were far from obeying the revelations God was giving him to pass on to us. I totally plead guilty to this charge myself, too. If you were not an AC grad in 1979, you may have been one later, and the instruction still was blown off. Similar instructions were given in 1984 to younger grads, and then in his last teaching of VPW told us ALL twice to master written PFAL. You had the oportunity to see that last teaching in the Sep/Oct 1985 Way Magazine, but your buying into the God-given authority of VPW was not established in your life to the point of seeing it and then acting on it. I chalk it up to the foolishness of youth, but now that you are mature you can act on it and deal with this unfinished business. There still are areas where we got to push ourselves. ********************************************************* ********************************************************* ********************************************************* ********************************************************* CM, You wrote: “I don't see any difference between what you are trying to do Mike and what they are doing. You are posting here too you know.” Here are some differences: The renegade, reprobate leaders claim that they have picked up where Dr left off, and yet they continue to downplay Dr’s instructions to master written PFAL. I promote these final instructions. The renegade, reprobate leaders promote the impression that they support Dr and PFAL to Dr’s followers, trying to woo them, yet they will quietly and behind the scenes, or much later come out and contradict many passages in Dr’s writings. In contrast, I seek to conform more and more to what Dr wrote. (Sure, many here claim I contradict what they THINK they remember is in PFAL, but I don’t try to conform to those partial and distorted images, just to what’s on paper and what all the writings say, not just one passage often taken alone by many.) The renegade, reprobate leaders claim to have sat at the feet of the man of God, or are ordained, and therefore have one-up on those who did not. They demand to be the major speaker and shun give-and-take with others as equals. I don’t claim this superiority. I just claim to have finally obeyed Dr and opened my books again to meekly master and urge others to do the same. I point not to my authority to have the deciding word like the renegade, reprobate leaders do, but I urge others to accept the revelations God had Dr put into writing as the final say. The renegade, reprobate leaders are often looking for abundant sharing loyal followers. I am not. The renegade, reprobate leaders get nasty and threateningly tough, warning of consequences and/or cut off communication with those who cross them, defy their leadership status, or contradict them. I do not. I seek to civilly discuss our differences and keep the door open to future conversation. ********************************************************* ********************************************************* ********************************************************* ********************************************************* Wayfer Not, You wrote: “Please don't take me as attacking you.” Oky doky, I won’t. I’m actually touched that you would say this. Thank you. I’ll try to remember it in the future too. *** You wrote: ‘Mike, you term "all top leadership" when you say they failed. I always wonder how you know what all the top leadership are doing. How do you know they didn't read his written works and started teaching them?” I have spent 8 years now in watching what as many top leaders are doing as I can. I have called many by phone and e-mailed many. I’ve only been on GSC for a little over three years, but the 5 years before coming here were spent by me in the same dogged determination you’ve seen me in posting here seeking these leaders out. I’m always wanting to find an exception to this rule I’ve seen from my many direct contacts. I have asked around in all these 8 years for any exceptions, and whenever I get a tip that so-and-so is still doing PFAL I follow up on it. When I get there I usually find that, at best, they are running video classes, but not at all mastering the written parts. Some do some dabbling or reviewing of some of the written materials, but never mastering ALL of them and never in any systematic way. Their degree if thoroughness never comes even close to seeking the degree Dr specified in that AC quote I posted in red to dmiller above. They only look at some of the collaterals, feel free to contradict any number of points in them, and they bring in outside materials that contradict them. Do YOU know of any top leaders who are seriously implementing Dr’s final instructions in their lives and encouraging their followers to do the same? If so PLEASE tell me and I will follow-up. I will celebrate wildly if they are exceptions to the rule. By the way, another way I have arrived at feeling confident that there are no exceptions is that this kind of universal rejection of God is a common result of the adversary’s actions and the human condition. I call it the Golden Calf Effect. It happened over and over in the OT, where everyone, or very nearly everyone forsook God. It happened in the first century where all forsook Paul. It’s the norm. What’s abnormal in THIS case of PFAL deserters is that in less than one generation some have started coming back. I've also seen that PFAL prophetically says that all grads would forsake God. This would take soe time to demonstrate, but those who come back will see it eventually. I can help show this to the meek, but I'm not interested in proving it here. *** You wrote: “My other question is why is it so important to do what a man says to do?” It’s grossly UNimportant to do what a man says to do. However, if that man is relaying instructions from God, then it’s of UTMOST importance to obey. I do totally believe that God selected Dr as His spokesman to settle all the Biblical research questions that have plagued theology for centuries and to give him major revelations to us about the Return of Christ and our expected actions to walk in harmony with this Return, correcting many traditional errors as to how that Return is to occur. I don’t think that everything will be automatic, especially our participation in it. We need to be taught how to walk with God in His implementation of His plans. God issued these plans for us grads in written PFAL and that’s why He had Dr tell us for ten years and especially at the end to master written PFAL. When and only when we obey and meekly pick up PFAL to master it will God show us the next steps in this wonderful chapter in history. In short I believe God told Dr to tell us to master written PFAL. *** You wrote (with my minor typo corrections): “Maybe God Almighty Himself is telling them something else. Do you ignore that possibility?” No, I didn’t ignore that at all. From 1985 and earlier, until 1998, I looked to many leaders to have instructions from God for us, only to be bitterly disappointed. I had started deliberately and gradually tuning out Dr in 1982. In 1998 I came back and found that I had actually tuned him out much earlier, as I pointed out to dmiller that he did too, in that I did not literally act on what Dr said to do, even though I weakly claimed to believe he was in charge and getting God's revelations. NOW, I ignore the possibility that God is giving alternate instructions to these renegade reprobate leaders, because I see how thoroughly they rejected the instructions God gave them long ago via Dr’s ministry. But I only arrived at this position after deeply considering the opposite, the possibility you suggested, and many other factors. Do YOU ignore the possibility that God Almighty Himself was telling Dr to tell us to master PFAL? I’d say you do and that you have done for a long time now. I seriously doubt that you ever fully explored the possibility that God spoke via Dr's ministry, not FULLY. If you want to explore this possibility I can help you. We can do it privately to avoid the certain jeers from the peanut gallery.

I sometimes dream of winning the lottery or finding a stopwatch like the one on Twilight Zone that literally halts time, just so that I can catch up with all the backlog of posts I’d like to respond to. Now that I’ve finished my taxes and gotten a little caught up with my work I can do a little responding, along with the usual springboarding that other posters so often generously give me the opportunity to do. But the backlog for this thread will have to wait, because I recently saw several posts on the “Geer Anyone Got Anything Good to Say?” thread in the About the Way forum. I only have time for one right now. Over there GrouchoMarxJr, in Post #61, made an interesting observation that I concur with and would like to elaborate on. But first I want to re-write that post to fit more with the reality of the situation. From what I’ve seen Chris Geer is just another one of the many “VPW clones” that survived TWI with their “persona” intact. It seems that many of the “top leaders” from TWI have SIGNIFICANTLY ERRED in following in footsteps of their father in the Word. Number one error is that they all failed to pick up on Dr’s ten years of urging them to master the written forms of PFAL, from the early hints in 1975 to the sledgehammer ’79 AC demand that RHST be nearly memorized, to the last gentle but firm and twice mentioned urging in Dr’s Last/Lost Teaching. This last teaching was not only universally disobeyed by all the top leadership and clergy, but it was not passed on to the rest of us in any effective way either. Dr’s ten years of urging them all to master written PFAL was trodden underfoot in a most cavalier and arrogant way by all of them. As a result they did not and DO not know the accuracy of God’s Word, and they are totally taken in (and even instigators of) the many TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions) that sunk the ministry twenty years ago. They all have succumbed to different errors and have different weakness themselves, so their many splinter ministries suffer from a large variety of ills, some overt and some hidden. Some are nice guys and some are not. Some have a large number of good principles, but not enough to keep them from wandering later either into fires or off into weak obscurity. In addition to missing the accuracy of the Word that was given to them in written form, some are aware of many good and sound ideas, YET they often misapply them grossly. One example of this is that some misappropriate the 1942 promise to themselves, thinking they can reject the body of work God taught Dr and Dr put into written form, and that they can count on God to bless their research efforts to come up with an abundance of truth. Then another common misapplication of sound doctrine I’ve seen rampant in the ranks of former leaders is the Biblically sound idea of double honor due those who have brought us the Word, the high degree of respect due to any man whom God selects to be His spokesman. Waltzing back into by borrowing from GrouchoMarxJr, I’d say it seems that it is more preferable to these gentlemen to be the top banana of their own little group, than to regroup together into one big splinter group. VPW rightfully demanded “his way or the highway” because God was working with him in a special, 2000 year unique fashion, and God placed him as the one in charge. But these disobedient, defiant, and reprobate former leaders have unjustifiably cloned themselves into the same mode of operation VPW rightfully exercised, and all want to be “top dog” in a pack of other dogs all wanting the same honor without doing the same work to earn it. Division in these circles is inevitable. When the true man of God died, it became like a bad soap opera...Geer played his part, and what a part it was. So have many others in their time and place and sphere of influence. I run into them all the time. These men, upon first contact with me, are gracious and tender in their behavior. They try to schmooze me, praise me for my respect for VPW, and assure me that they too still love and respect him. They have years of habit patterns of carefully drawing upon the respect that many non-leader, non-Corps grads have for the man, VPW, who originally taught them the Word. These former TWI leaders feign this respect for Dr to avoid loosing potential followers and abundant sharers in the people who still love Dr and PFAL, all the while they have been quietly amplifying their initial defiance of Dr’s final instructions by opposing point after point in the material they were told to master. I see they are used to being top dogs in their operations so I go slow with them. As I lay out for them the itinerary Dr had insisted upon, they do their best to agree with me and yes me to death. But the soon also start to remind me that they “sat at the feet of the man of God” while I had not. They remind me they had the “official” training while I had not. They remind me of the years of hard work and sweat they have put into their operation, sounding just like Geer in his POP self praise. But I’ve seen this pattern so often that I just methodically press on and lay out for them what Dr told them to do and what they refused to do. I do this as politely and coolly as I am capable of doing. I point out that their KJV research is void of authority and just another opinion in a sea of them, and that Dr was given authority and direct teaching from God to settle the issues. I assert slowly that these renegade leaders are trying to re-invent wheels that are already available for me to roll with. At some point they finally get it, that I am not meek to them and never will be, and that I have the evidence in hand that they are far from really respecting VPW. These sad sacks are merely using a show of respect for VPW to win converts from the pool of grads who genuinely respect him and VPW. When these guys reach this point of seeing that I am solid in insisting it’s THEY that need to change course and not me, they drop me like a hot potato. Their schmoozing either turns to callous, hard, nasty threats of my spiritual doom, or they cut and run, never again returning my calls or e-mails and doing the M&A trip on me with their followers. It’s a repeating pattern. Some of these renegade leaders have even posted here, and many are known here. They are good at the schmooze techniques and are liked by some here.

Jonny, It's been on many threads before. If you do a standard nuts and bolts word study on “foreknowledge” in your Youngs you'll see that there is hardly any explanation of it except for one tiny OT verse where it explains that God knows His own acts before he does them. Extrapolating out, the theory is that God is a very good and powerful planer, but has no detailed knowledge of what anyone else is going to do before they do it. The theory has it that God is very good at predicting and then planning for all possible outcomes, and to forge them into His overall general plan. This is a good description of the devil, but not of the Creator. God created time itself and is not held captive to it. The error is that there are plenty of other ways to describe foreknowledge than using a simple word or phrase. Many passages in the Bible embody the idea that we reduce to the one word “foreknowledge.” The research has to be expanded from a word study to a topic study, and the latter is much harder and much more time consuming. It’s mind boggling to think that brains like Geer and the CES group have fallen for this junk. A very similar thing happens when you do word study on “free will.” If you stick to that phrase you’ll come out thinking that there is Biblically no such thing as we commonly describe it today.

The limited foreknowledge theory is one of the stupidest, blindest pieces of intellectual garbage I've ever seen.

I have something good to say, but not all good. I met Chris Geer in 1971, at Rye NY, in the days of the Groovy Christians. I never got to know him very well personally, but I did a little, for a short time. He probably doesn’t remember me. He came across to me as very smart and diligent, and on one occasion he was EXTREMELY helpful to me personally. His advice from that meeting was long remembered and it led me to an 11 year research project that eventually answered many, many questions I had. I ran into him a few times at HQ around 1977, all pleasant. The only incident I can remember, though, was when he and some others were exiting the BRC as I was walking by. His friends were lightly mocking him, so I asked Chris why. He said that they were preparing to go on a Bible lands tour and he (Chris) wasn’t going but had asked several who were going to take special note of the Sea of Galilee’s color. He wanted to know if the lyric of the song we often sang in fellowships was accurate when it mentions something about Jesus “...of blue Galilee.” The incident impressed me in that (one) Chris was interested in that degree of accuracy, and (two) that his mocking friends were not. When I took Chris’ WIGP class around 1996 I enjoyed the college professor tone with which he taught it. However, I knew darn well that it would put most others, especially most new people, asleep. I was shocked by the ending of his class at how shoddy a job he did leading new people into tongues. It starkly showed me that he had radically stripped a gear in the years since I knew him personally. His launching in recent years into the theory of the limited foreknowledge of God proved to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is not a spiritual man but a blind theologian and a senses bound thinker. Most Geerite Group ministers and followers that I know are shallow thinkers and full of fear at best. They do things by the book and dare not stray. Many of the upper leaders are tough and mean, but also shallow thinkers. They are afraid of considering anything that goes against their grain, I think in over-compensating for the mistake of Eve.

Here’s another approach. Experiencing via the senses is a perfectly valid way of collecting data for understanding many aspects of the senses realm. One extreme of this method is science, where experience is extended with technology, quantified, repeated, and limited to more trivial matters. The result of this extreme method is extreme surety. Another rather different method, but one sharing the same base as science is people skills. There are others. Experiencing via the senses is NOT useful for a understanding the spiritual realm because the senses don’t collect data DIRECTLY from that realm, but only from manifestations of interactions from that realm. Add to this limitation the deceiving god of this world who’s been given dominion of the senses realm and experience SHOULD be highly suspect of leading to inaccuracies regarding the spiritual realm.

Bagpipes, Yes, I have that book by Daniel Amen, and it's very eye opening. He's a great speaker, a very down to earth scientist, and yet still a believer in God. He had a Saturday morning radio call-in talk show here in San Diego that I used to listen to, and he may resume it when he's off his current book tour. He has several books out and Barnes and Noble carries them. His website may offer streaming audio still. He seems to be breaking new ground in Psychiatry, being the first (and still only?) M.D. in that field that actually looks at the organ he treats. Up until now Psychiatrists had no way to look at the brain so they only look at words and body language. Daniel Amen strikes me as a pioneer.

dmiller, You're arguing by analogy, and ignoring the content of the books. Yes, it does have keys and those keys helped us intensely with that very difficult document, the KJV. That it did this, and in one place declared it to be a Bible aid, does not in any way mean to say that God could not be intimately in the process of its production. I’m still wondering if anyone remembers or has searched out other areas of PFAL where “keys” are mentioned. I know of one very telling place. Are there any posters who had mastered PFAL long ago that know of the place I am referring to? Any VAGUE ideas where? Any trace of a remembrance from that past mastery of Dr talking about keys? I’ll give you some time to think about it, or search it out. Opening the books can be a real eye opener.

Hi allan, I’m grateful for your presence and support. :) However, let's leave that matter for another thread. That’s not fair to templelady, too, to bait her and make her have to decide whether to answer it here. Suffice it say that Dr did praise the Mormons for their unusually great application of some of God’s Word, and he totally ignored their extra-biblical offerings. One constructive criticism I want to offer you is this: go after the good ideas and those who teach them. Going after the “bad” guys is an endless task, there’s so many of them. I criticize many posters here with the same advice. Their constant focus on the bad and flushing it out for exposure leaves unattended the MUCH greater need to bring the good stuff into the light for all to see. I have debated this very same thing with people like the John Birch Society. For all their insights on political bad guys, they have little to nothing good to offer as an alternative influence. We’ve all seen what a fool the devil made of LCM as he turned away from Dr’s instructions involving mastering written PFAL, and then later on he felt the irresistible urge and need to expose all sorts of enemies within his TWI-2. Now where is he? It consumed him. Exposing bad guys is something Jesus spent very little time on, and he totally ignored the Romans. Once in a while it’s called for and we can see Paul doing it sparingly AND BY REVELATION. You and I have very little handle on the revelation manifestations and that’s why Dr urged us to much to focus on the collaterals and master them. Once we are proficient in those three manifestations we may receive such an assignment, but until then our neglected assignment from God via Dr is to intensely focus on PFAL and talk THAT up as a part of our receive retain release exercise.

templelady, I had written (and you later bold fonted) : “Before I got into the Word I read a lot of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, where the central theme (mixed with a lot of baloney) was that most human consciousness is actually an illusion. They sought real consciousness as a form of enlightenment. Some of the ideas I entertained there seemed to fit with the Word and I held on to them. It’s all still the frontier of my understanding. Later in my life, in all my studies with the brain scientists I never got any kind of an understanding of free will, and they too very much supported the idea the consciousness is a hyped up concept in our culture.” You wrote (I assume referring to the bold fonts): “That one sentance explains a great deal I have been heretofore unable to grasp in your thought processes, thank you for the enlightenment.” I object to your cavalier handling of my post here. First of all you should include the qualifiers. The sub-sentence you highlighted should read “MOST human consciousness is actually an illusion.” Second, I was referring to Gurdjieff’s and Ouspensky’s total embrace of that idea and my only partial embrace without supplying any detail as to what parts. Third, you have no idea what scriptures I saw that relate to it. Then there’s the fourth objection. Look at the timestamps. Your reading of my post, AND pondering of it, AND writing what you did took a grand total of FORTY MINUTES! I had pondered that idea for 35 years, the people I had first read of it from, along with their hundreds of students, had devoted their entire lives to it all through the first half of the 20th Century, and now hundreds of PhD hard core brain scientists have been working it for decades. The co-discoverer of DNA, Nobel Prizewinner Francis Crick, in his very last book (like dying last words) and title thereof describes this same idea similar to that sentence I had written as “The Astonishing Hypothesis!” But you, templelady, saw through this exceedingly complex and challenging idea in less than FORTY MINUTES! And I'd bet it was actually a lot less, more like immediate? I can only say, mimicking you, that one sentence you posted mocking me explains a great deal I have been heretofore unable to grasp in your thought processes, thank you for the enlightenment.

templelady, You wrote: “He speaks not only to the intelligentsia but to the high school dropout, he speaks not only to the billionaire in his estate but the third world farmer. He speaks clearly and distinctly so that all his creation will know his will” This description is apropos for the PFAL collaterals, but hardly of the KJV! Even modern easier to read versions are fraught with difficulties in addition to some verses being translated into the theology of the publishers and ancient manuscript aberrations like forgeries and mis-coping. Clouding the understanding of a high school dropout are Bible land Geography and History including nations surrounding Israel, that obscure many verses’ meanings. Add to that 212 figures of speech, administrations, applicability to the addressee, Oriental customs, complex overlapping time lines, and long lists of names with even multiple people having the same name. Some dropouts can catch up a little if they read footnotes, but that interrupts the reading flow and takes time, in addition to being subject to the foibles of the publishers. Many of the above items require a library of research materials, and those dropouts successful in slogging through all this would require of us a long story as to why they shouldn’t skip high school and straight into college. PFAL was designed so that a 12 year old can take it and begin reading the books, thankfully uncluttered with footnotes until the more advanced volumes of JCNG, JCOP, and JCPS are reached. *** Don’t give up on me supplying some verses for backing up some PFAL concepts here. Time is a major limitation. And, on T-Bone’s thread “What does it take to change your mind?” I mentioned scriptures backing up the Bible’s stand against Western man’s self worship in thinking human consciousness is something grand FOR YOU to search out and supply. Yes, I cued you to ask me, but my plan then was to challenge you to do it after you did ask. I mention this here in this way to avoid derailing there. I also had a HUGE belly laugh when I saw you write this after I wrote of the possible illusion of consciousness: “That one sentance explains a great deal I have been heretofore unable to grasp in your thought processes, thank you for the enlightenment.” What was so funny is the timestamps. Your reading of my post, AND pondering of it, AND writing what you did took a grand total of FORTY MINUTES! I had pondered that idea for 35 years, the people I had first read of it from had devoted their entire lives to it all through the first half of the 20th Century, and now hundreds of PhD hard core brain scientists have been working it for decades. The co-discoverer of DNA, Nobel Prizewinner Francis Crick, in his very last book (like dying last words) and title thereof describes this same idea similar to that sentence I had written as “The Astonishing Hypothesis!” But you, templelady, saw through this exceedingly complex and challenging idea in less than FORTY MINUTES! And I'd bet it was actually a lot less from your performance here, more like immediate? What a laugh! I must say, mimicking you, that one sentence you posted mocking me explains a great deal I have been heretofore unable to grasp in your thought processes, thank you for the enlightenment. No wonder you are lacking in so many fundamental PFAL concepts, and great wonder that you call me arrogant, while you criticize what you never absorbed. I suggest you open the PFAL collaterals to see what you are pretty darn ignorant of and change that status. I think you’ll actually like it.